Liaison

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Thursday 27th March 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, let me make it clear that tabling the amendment in no way changes my opinion of the Lord Chairman of Committees—a comrade in arms. I have tabled the amendment because the Lord Chairman said, in response to the e-mail to which he referred, which was signed by me and the noble Lords, Lord Norton, Lord Hennessy and Lord Forsyth:

“When the Liaison Committee last met, I had heard by word of mouth that particularly in the Commons there were Members interested in a Joint Committee on Civil Service Reform. As no formal process had been received the Committee could not consider this in great detail, but the general feeling of the Committee was that the terms of reference would need to be considered carefully. The subject is a large and important one, and Members felt that it was unlikely that justice could be done to such a complex issue in the parliamentary time available before the 2015 election”.

However, the report to the House refers in no way to that discussion. I am in no way casting doubt on the Liaison Committee, but I felt that without this amendment being accepted—I am very grateful that it is accepted—if the other place called for a Joint Committee, the response would be that the Liaison Committee had already discussed it and we were not in favour of it. That would be a disgraceful response if the other place expressed an interest in such a Joint Committee on the Civil Service.

I served on the Liaison Committee for nine years and I am pleased that recent reforms have made it less arthritic. However, the Liaison Committee should be able to respond very quickly to need. I do not believe that the fifth year of this Parliament is a dead or fallow period, particularly when the Executive are pressing ahead with such an important thing as Civil Service reform. The idea of a Civil Service chosen on merit and politically neutral is one of the great reforming gifts of 19th-century Liberalism to our governance. We should not let that go away casually while Parliament is not looking. It is not acceptable that Civil Service reform should go ahead without proper parliamentary scrutiny.

In passing I would say that I recently had the honour of serving in government for three and a half years and my impression was that we still attract talent into our Civil Service and that it is still based on a very strong ethos of public service. If we are not to throw that away casually or by the back door, Parliament will have to be very alert. I therefore put down this marker to the Liaison Committee. Some very distinguished Members from all parties in the other place have pressed for such a committee. I hope that the Liaison Committee will react nimbly and positively to such a request.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I shall speak briefly. As the noble Lord has pointed out, I added my name to the e-mail that was sent. I say to the Chairman of Committees that I think it is a bit bureaucratic to say that the deadline was 15 January when we had a major debate in this House on the Civil Service in which almost every speech expressed concern about maintaining the integrity of the Civil Service and its political independence. After that there were moves at a very senior level in the other place to have an initiative on a joint basis between both Houses. Therefore, we made a request for a committee to be established after the deadline because of the circumstances that occurred in both Chambers of Parliament. I say very gently to the Chairman of Committees that, if the Liaison Committee is so concerned about its procedures that it does not take account of what is being said in both Houses of Parliament, perhaps more flexibility needs to be introduced into these procedures.

I am very concerned indeed by some of the proposals being put forward for reform of the Civil Service. When I was Secretary of State for Scotland, we were in government but I always felt that I was in opposition. The Civil Service in the Scottish Office was pretty committed to establishing a Scottish Parliament and we were pretty committed to not establishing a Scottish Parliament. We were also committed to a whole range of quite radical reforms that went against the grain. I have to say that I never, ever experienced anything other than complete and total professional service from the Civil Service. If you gave it a lead, it would respond, and respond with great professionalism and integrity.

I observe the Civil Service now; I observe the degree to which there is turnover in important departments such as the Treasury; I look at the numbers of Permanent Secretaries who seem to survive for less than 12 months; and I look at the proposals that are coming from the coalition to politicise and increase the number of special advisers. These are all hugely revolutionary and important changes and when, come the general election, each political party will no doubt have something to say on its views on the Civil Service, it will be important that we have an informed debate.

I therefore regret the fact that there will not be an opportunity for us to have a proper look at these issues so that people can make up their minds as to what the right way forward is. I very much hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, should a proposal come from the House of Commons we would respond to it so that the expertise and experience that exist in this House in all quarters can add to what is a central debate to the future of our constitution and good government in our country.

House of Lords: Reform

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Wednesday 22nd June 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I never said that this Chamber should have a right of veto; I said it had a right to say no. There is a difference. Usually in this House somebody is allowed to develop an argument, and I will cover the whole question that was raised. I am not trying to be nasty to the noble Lord, Lord Grocott. I am very affectionate towards him. There were a number of thoughts that passed through during the speeches. I liked the phrase used by the noble Lord, Lord Davies, of a House of grandparents appointed through patronage. I think that is one to reflect on. I liked another one by the noble Lord, Lord Hennessy, who said,

“we must avoid what de Tocqueville called a ‘perpetual utterance of self-applause’”.—[Official Report, 21/6/11; col. 1194.]

We did not entirely manage that over the last two days.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

While my noble friend is very entertaining, does he plan to answer some of the serious questions that have been put in this debate?

[Lord McNally]

You have to be patient. You are behaving as you used to do in the House of Commons. That is why wind-up speeches in the House of Commons take so long. This has been a long debate. I am not going to answer every question in 100 speeches, partly because, as I have already pointed out, this is the start of a process of consideration. I think many of the questions that were raised quite rightly should be addressed by the committee to be chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Richard, and I will make further points on that. However, I must remind this House—this unelected House—that all three parties fought the last election advocating direct elections as part of their plan for reform of the House of Lords. Those policies presumably went through a decision-making process in all three parties. I wonder how many of the speeches made from the Labour Benches would go down at a Labour Party conference, or how some of the speeches made from my own Benches would go down at a Liberal Democrat conference.

My party leader and my party took a great deal of criticism when they appeared to go back on a manifesto commitment concerning tuition fees. The noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, made great hay of that during his contribution. However, this is a threefold commitment that the government proposals reflect. As far as I am aware, no one has put proposals to continue with an unelected House before a party conference or put them into an election manifesto. As the noble Lord, Lord True, suggested—

House of Lords Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Tuesday 17th May 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kakkar]

My Lords—

[Lord McNally]

Can we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, and then from the Cross Benches?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend on how he has dealt with this matter today. May I press him on the answer he gave to the noble Baroness, Lady Symons? Throughout the Statement, he has been at pains to say that of course elected Members would change the relationship with the House of Commons. I have got only as far as page 7 of the White Paper, which says:

“We propose no change to the constitutional powers and privileges of the House once it is reformed, nor to the fundamental relationship with the House of Commons”.

Who should we believe? Should we believe what it says in the White Paper or what my noble friend has been telling us this afternoon?

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Wednesday 9th February 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, the debate has been dominated by realism and cynicism: realism from the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, who said that patronage had oiled the wheels of the Palace of Westminster since time immemorial, and cynicism from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, who said that he did not trust the Government.

I am grateful to noble Lords for contributing to the debate. I see myself as a transitory Minister but a long-time believer in parliamentary checks and balances on the Executive. There is no difference between us on that. In Committee, we on these Benches outlined two key points that are worth returning to now. First, we are not at all against the spirit of the amendment. Since the Government came to power, they have demonstrated on several occasions that they believe in dispersing power. For example, they moved swiftly in the other place to implement the Wright committee recommendations to establish the Backbench Business Committee, passing control of much more parliamentary time to Back-Benchers and enabling them to elect the chairs and members of Select Committees by taking these decisions away from the Whips, who had such a dead hand on parliamentary democracy for so many years. I am too delicate to name the guilty men at this moment.

Noble Lords, including the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, can be reassured that the Government are not looking to extend their influence. We are not seeking to expand the so-called payroll vote as a proportion of Members in the other place. However, we are not certain that legislating for this is necessary. We have said that we will look at all legislative and non-legislative options for addressing this—and we will—but we need to look at all the ramifications. For example, it might seem an odd consequence if we were to reduce the number of Ministers in one House by increasing the number of Ministers in another—this House. If the business of government demanded a larger number of Ministers who could not sit in the other place, that would be the only alternative. Ultimately, we want to be governed by the principle that the number of Ministers must be a function of need, which is not necessarily related to the number of MPs.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Is the problem not that only a fixed number of Ministers is allowed, and as a result many Ministers in this House are unpaid? Surely that is unfair given the very considerable workload that this House undertakes because the other place does not seem to get round to revising legislation. We are all very appreciative of the Front Bench, but it seems very odd that so many of them should be unpaid so that there can be more paid Ministers in the other place.

[Lord McNally]

That is a very valid point that could be looked at. Successive Governments have relied on the goodwill of Members of this House to take on considerable duties and responsibilities. Again, I do not rule out looking at those matters. However, now is not the time to legislate on the issue. The reduction in the size of the other place will not come into effect until the next election in 2015. It would be much better to consider these questions closer to the time, when the parliamentary landscape will be much clearer. I assure noble Lords that we are looking at this question, but it does not need to be answered—and it would be wrong to answer it—in the Bill. Therefore, I invite the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Howarth, for tabling Amendment 27FA. The amendment is similar in principle to that tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, and the noble Lord, Lord Bach, so I shall be brief in my response. We are sympathetic to the intention of the amendment. The Government are keen to investigate the options for addressing the issue, and keen to hear any thoughts that noble Lords may have. We recognise the noble Lord's desire to limit the payroll vote. However, even with the provisions of the amendment, were the number of parliamentary private secretaries to be increased before a general election, a post-electoral reduction would not introduce the changes that the noble Lord intends. The issue needs further consideration and we cannot commit to making these provisions in the Bill.

We do not wish to see an increase in the payroll vote as a result of the Bill, but now is not the right time to legislate on the issue. The Government believe that it would be better to consider the issues after the change in the political landscape that will be brought about by the Bill has been made clearer. As I said, the issues raised are very real ones about the relationship between the Executive and Parliament, and even in eight months, the Government have established a record that means that the realism of the noble Lord, Lord Boateng, is more appropriate than the cynicism of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer. We will address these matters and I ask the noble and learned Lord to withdraw his amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord McNally]

As such an experienced parliamentarian, the noble Lord knows darn well that I could not possibly give him that guarantee—but that is exactly why he asked that question. Noble Lords will have ample opportunity to discuss this House and all other matters relating to it when the Government's proposals for reforming your Lordships' House are published. As I said, I have great interest in some of these issues and would like to see them pushed forward with a real sense of urgency. In the mean time, I urge my noble friend Lord Forsyth to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I had no intention of pressing the amendment to a vote tonight, but I have to tell my noble friend that he has not addressed the simple question I asked him. Do the Government have a view as to what the limit on the size of this House should be? I get the distinct impression in listening to his explanation of House of Lords reform and the relative sizes of the House of Commons and the House of Lords that the Government are making this up as they go along. If there is a plan for people to be able to leave the House, and if there is a plan for the size of the House, would it not be a good idea to know what the plan is before making additional appointments on such an enormous scale?

I am embarrassed by the praise being heaped upon me by Members opposite. I am in quite enough trouble already without the comments of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer, although I appreciated the kind words of the noble Lord, Lord Low.

I do not enjoy moving an amendment of this kind at all. But I am concerned that not enough thought has been given, as my noble friend Lady O'Cathain pointed out, to the impact on this House of these changes. I am not being overly critical, I hope, of the Deputy Prime Minister, but if he thinks that the current gulf between the voters and Parliament will be solved by making this place larger, altering the nature of the composition of this House and altering the ways in which Parliament functions, I think he is missing what is going on in the country. We are in danger of damaging in this case a well-oiled machine. There is a case for parliamentary reform, but it is more at the other end of the building than at this end.

Because of the response that I have had, it is with considerable regret that I should like to test the opinion of the House.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Monday 24th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I shall have to write to the noble Lord. It was in the last Boundary Commission report dealing with the Scottish boundaries. Again, noble Lords opposite are continually looking for hidden factors, secret deals and political fixes. As I say, that is so sad from people who set off on a political journey with such idealism. As has been pointed out, special geographical considerations can be taken into account.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

On this point about the Scottish Boundary Commission and its recommendations, the Bill instructs the Boundary Commission to operate according to certain rules, but if the Boundary Commission is of the view that the size of Ross, Skye and Lochaber is about right, surely it can come to that conclusion without being instructed to do so in the Bill.

[Lord McNally]

The Bill helps it in its work. This is not a time to go back to the drawing board. Most of the arguments have been rehearsed. Charles Kennedy himself pointed out the difficulty of operating in the present constituency with his five-hour drive. One of the possible consequences of the amendment is that we would be faced with even larger geographic constituencies.

We propose as a maximum size roughly that of the current largest constituency area. Since it was recommended by the Boundary Commission, we believed that it gave the best benchmark to use in our proposals. Ultimately, this is a matter of judgment. We see no reason to risk turning what are now challenging but manageable factors into potentially unmanageable and damaging factors for MPs and their constituencies in these areas. I urge the noble Lord to withdraw his amendment.

Equality: Act of Settlement

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Monday 10th January 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, that intervention shows the wisdom of proceeding with extreme caution on these matters.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, is my noble friend aware that, shortly after joining this House more than 10 years ago, I introduced a Private Member’s Bill that was torpedoed very effectively by my noble friend Lord St John of Fawsley and which sought to prevent the heir to the Throne marrying a Roman Catholic? The then Government used exactly the same argument, saying that it required countries in which the Queen is Head of State to pass legislation and that they would take the matter forward. It is more than 10 years since that commitment was made. What progress was made and what was done?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, first, I welcome the noble Lord down from his mountain in Antarctica. Messages from the mountain top are always welcome. We are talking about an Act that is 300 years old and that has served this country not too badly when one considers the 60 years of religious and communal strife that went before it. Therefore, although 10 years seems a long time, there have been consultations. I thought that, at least in this House, talking of progress in terms of centuries would be much appreciated. As is known, the previous Administration initiated discussions among Commonwealth countries. Those discussions are proceeding under the chairmanship of the New Zealand Government and we will continue to keep the matter under consideration.

Parliamentary Voting System and Constituencies Bill

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Tuesday 16th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

I do not think so, and I do not think that we are going down that road.

On the boundaries, the Bill corrects the flaws in the current legislation that not only has seen the number of MPs creep up—by only a small number, I admit—but leads to the unfairness of constituencies with vastly unequal electoral sizes. As both my noble friends Lord Norton and Lord Oakeshott quoted a British Academy report, let me quote from it:

“the rules set out in the Bill are a very substantial improvement on those currently implemented by the Boundary Commission (they have a clear hierarchy and are not contradictory)”.

On the question of exceptions—

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I apologise for interrupting, but my noble friend asked a question that he raised in his speech yesterday. It is an important point because our understanding is that the coalition agreement rules out having a threshold that is based on outcome as opposed to being based on turnout. It would be helpful for us to have a specific answer to that question so that we know which amendments would be within the terms of the coalition agreement.

[Lord McNally]

We will certainly look forward to the amendments but we take guidance from the House of Commons, which seems to have pretty comprehensively rejected thresholds—not the coalition agreement, but thresholds.

Parliament: MP Numbers and Constituency Review

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Thursday 24th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord McNally]

These proposals will strengthen local democracy and enhance the whole quality and culture of our democracy by giving fairer votes and votes of more equal weight.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, I congratulate the coalition Government on their plan to reduce the size of the other place in order to achieve economies, but will the Minister explain why they propose at the same time greatly to enlarge the size of this House at considerable cost, and in doing so, as he himself has pointed out, perhaps bring this House into some disrepute in the country?

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I could not agree more with my noble friend. If he comes to the debate next week, as I am sure he will, he will hear my noble friend Lord Strathclyde and me speaking at an appropriate length about how we think the numbers and the costs of this House could be radically reduced.

House of Lords Reform: Committee Membership

Debate between Lord Forsyth of Drumlean and Lord McNally

Tuesday 8th June 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

My Lords, would it not be more useful for the Deputy Prime Minister to set up a committee to look at the performance of the other place, given the amount of legislation that has come to this House to be reviewed and revised without having been debated or even considered in the House of Commons?

[Lord McNally]

My noble friend has always been skilled at getting an audience on his side and his point may well have merit. But the fact is that the three major political parties which fought the last election all had in their manifestos reform of this place. We are going ahead with those commitments as perhaps the other party should have done at some stage when it had the majority to do so.