Liaison

Lord McNally Excerpts

Thursday 27th March 2014 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord McNally]

At end to insert “with the proviso that, in the event that the House of Commons invites the House of Lords to appoint a Committee to join with a Commons Committee as a joint committee on the Civil Service, the Liaison Committee will meet again to consider the proposal”.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, let me make it clear that tabling the amendment in no way changes my opinion of the Lord Chairman of Committees—a comrade in arms. I have tabled the amendment because the Lord Chairman said, in response to the e-mail to which he referred, which was signed by me and the noble Lords, Lord Norton, Lord Hennessy and Lord Forsyth:

“When the Liaison Committee last met, I had heard by word of mouth that particularly in the Commons there were Members interested in a Joint Committee on Civil Service Reform. As no formal process had been received the Committee could not consider this in great detail, but the general feeling of the Committee was that the terms of reference would need to be considered carefully. The subject is a large and important one, and Members felt that it was unlikely that justice could be done to such a complex issue in the parliamentary time available before the 2015 election”.

However, the report to the House refers in no way to that discussion. I am in no way casting doubt on the Liaison Committee, but I felt that without this amendment being accepted—I am very grateful that it is accepted—if the other place called for a Joint Committee, the response would be that the Liaison Committee had already discussed it and we were not in favour of it. That would be a disgraceful response if the other place expressed an interest in such a Joint Committee on the Civil Service.

I served on the Liaison Committee for nine years and I am pleased that recent reforms have made it less arthritic. However, the Liaison Committee should be able to respond very quickly to need. I do not believe that the fifth year of this Parliament is a dead or fallow period, particularly when the Executive are pressing ahead with such an important thing as Civil Service reform. The idea of a Civil Service chosen on merit and politically neutral is one of the great reforming gifts of 19th-century Liberalism to our governance. We should not let that go away casually while Parliament is not looking. It is not acceptable that Civil Service reform should go ahead without proper parliamentary scrutiny.

In passing I would say that I recently had the honour of serving in government for three and a half years and my impression was that we still attract talent into our Civil Service and that it is still based on a very strong ethos of public service. If we are not to throw that away casually or by the back door, Parliament will have to be very alert. I therefore put down this marker to the Liaison Committee. Some very distinguished Members from all parties in the other place have pressed for such a committee. I hope that the Liaison Committee will react nimbly and positively to such a request.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

I shall speak briefly. As the noble Lord has pointed out, I added my name to the e-mail that was sent. I say to the Chairman of Committees that I think it is a bit bureaucratic to say that the deadline was 15 January when we had a major debate in this House on the Civil Service in which almost every speech expressed concern about maintaining the integrity of the Civil Service and its political independence. After that there were moves at a very senior level in the other place to have an initiative on a joint basis between both Houses. Therefore, we made a request for a committee to be established after the deadline because of the circumstances that occurred in both Chambers of Parliament. I say very gently to the Chairman of Committees that, if the Liaison Committee is so concerned about its procedures that it does not take account of what is being said in both Houses of Parliament, perhaps more flexibility needs to be introduced into these procedures.

I am very concerned indeed by some of the proposals being put forward for reform of the Civil Service. When I was Secretary of State for Scotland, we were in government but I always felt that I was in opposition. The Civil Service in the Scottish Office was pretty committed to establishing a Scottish Parliament and we were pretty committed to not establishing a Scottish Parliament. We were also committed to a whole range of quite radical reforms that went against the grain. I have to say that I never, ever experienced anything other than complete and total professional service from the Civil Service. If you gave it a lead, it would respond, and respond with great professionalism and integrity.

I observe the Civil Service now; I observe the degree to which there is turnover in important departments such as the Treasury; I look at the numbers of Permanent Secretaries who seem to survive for less than 12 months; and I look at the proposals that are coming from the coalition to politicise and increase the number of special advisers. These are all hugely revolutionary and important changes and when, come the general election, each political party will no doubt have something to say on its views on the Civil Service, it will be important that we have an informed debate.

I therefore regret the fact that there will not be an opportunity for us to have a proper look at these issues so that people can make up their minds as to what the right way forward is. I very much hope that, as the noble Lord, Lord McNally, said, should a proposal come from the House of Commons we would respond to it so that the expertise and experience that exist in this House in all quarters can add to what is a central debate to the future of our constitution and good government in our country.