Telecommunications Infrastructure (Leasehold Property) Bill

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Report stage & Report stage (Hansard) & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 29th June 2020 Lords Chamber

I have been asked to indicate how I expect to vote. I will reserve my judgment until I hear what the Minister has to say. I will then decide whether or not to press our amendment.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I am speaking to the House virtually, using equipment manufactured by a company which is central to the Communist Party of China’s surveillance state, and, as such, to the egregious oppression of religious and other minorities. My BT Openreach equipment is made by Huawei, one of whose directors openly boasted that:

“Together with the Public Security Bureau, Huawei will unlock a new era of smart policing and help build a safer, smarter society.”


It will be “a new era” indeed: an era of detention without trial for bloggers, journalists, academics and dissidents; an era of televised forced confessions; an era of torture, enforced organ harvesting, compulsory sterilisation, and the destruction of crosses and their churches.

I commend to the House the evidence-based report by the Conservative Party Human Rights Commission entitled The Darkest Moment: The Crackdown in Human Rights in China, 2013-16. It makes for very disturbing reading. It details how a pastor’s wife was buried alive while protesting at the demolition of a church in Henan province, and how Falun Gong prisoners were forced to donate organs to high-ranking Chinese officials.

Giving evidence to the commission on organ harvesting, the Chinese-born actress Anastasia Lin said that such acts force us

“to confront the question of how humans—doctors trained to heal, no less—could possibly do such great evil”.

Her answer was that:

“The aggressors in China were not born to be monsters who take out organs from their people … It’s the system that made them do that. It’s the system that made them so cold-bloodedly able to cut people open and take out their organs and watch them die.”


As a consequence of her criticism of the regime, Miss Lin’s family were threatened by state security agents, and her Canadian sponsors were asked by the Chinese consulate to withdraw their support to her. I believe that a new report, under the chairmanship of Fiona Bruce MP, is to be published shortly. It concludes that the situation is worse now in China, not better.

Of course I understand the importance of getting the nation connected with fibre; I support this Bill in its objectives. However, I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Alton of Liverpool, on his ingenuity in bringing forward this amendment, and on the courage and courtesy he has shown in bringing it to this stage. I also thank the Minister, who has been diligent in listening to arguments and representations.

As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, predicted, the Minister will say that this is not the right vehicle to address my concerns for national security and human rights. I was a Minister for 10 years, and I would love a pound for every time I used that particular argument. If, however, the argument is correct, an undertaking to bring forward in future legislation an amendment to exclude Huawei and other high-risk vendors from our network should be given by the Minister, with a commitment to introduce it quickly. In that case, there would be no need to press the matter today. So far, the Government have failed to give such a commitment, but it is not so difficult. After all, speaking from the Front Bench on 27 January, my noble friend Lady Morgan of Cotes—who we will hear from shortly—gave the whole House an assurance that

“high-risk vendors never have been and never will be involved in our most sensitive networks”.—[Official Report, 27/1/20; col. 1300.]

If so, all that is required is dropping the qualification “most sensitive”, and recognising the difficulty of maintaining effective security with 5G systems which are software-based.

The Australian Strategic Policy Institute has detailed how Huawei is implicated in the world’s most far-reaching surveillance state. In a BBC “Panorama” documentary, Adrian Zenz, a German academic who the noble Lord, Lord Alton, referred to, spoke of the Chinese Government’s actions in Xinjiang:

“The world should acknowledge this for what it is: the largest detainment of an ethnic minority since the holocaust.”


I repeat: “since the holocaust”. Our Five Eyes allies have rejected Huawei. As was pointed out by the previous speaker and fellow signatory to this amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady Falkner, if we allow our dependency on Huawei to grow, how much more difficult it will be for us to take a stand for national security, decency and human rights.

Huawei is not without friends in high places. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Madingley, chairs the UK board, and in April it was announced that Sir Mike Rake, former chairman of BT and president of the CBI, was joining the board. Other members include the Lord Lieutenant of London, Sir Ken Olisa, and Sir Andrew Cahn, the former head of UK Trade & Investment. From a quick online search, I could not find what the UK board of Huawei does, or what roles the directors carry out. However, championing the human rights of oppressed groups in China is certainly not one of them.

This amendment would simply require the Chinese Communist Party and its state-controlled company, Huawei, to meet fundamental standards of humanity if they wished to operate in UK telecommunications in the future. It is hard to see how anyone in your Lordships’ House could be against that. As the noble Lord, Lord Alton, pointed out, Ministers and officials have confirmed that the telecommunications security Bill will not be amendable to secure human rights obligations, so, in the absence of a government commitment to bring forward an amendment at Third Reading, this is our only chance to stand up for the millions of people in communist China who have been robbed of their freedom and whose lives are a misery because of their beliefs and ethnicity. I urge all noble Lords to support the amendment in the name of humanity.

[Lord Adonis [V]]

My Lords, I support the amendment and applaud the noble Lord, Lord Alton, for consistently drawing the attention of the House to systematic and unsupportable violations of human rights in respect not only of China but so many troubled regions in the world.

The key issue in respect of Huawei and this Bill is how we balance two priorities. The first is the modernisation of our national infrastructure and the second is seeking to support improvements in human rights in China. I have come to human rights issues relating to China only fairly recently, because of the obviously worsening situation. The key issue is that just raised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth: whether human rights in China are getting significantly better or significantly worse. It is clear that it is the latter.

My prime concern previously as the founding chairman of the National Infrastructure Commission, working with all parties in the House, has been the modernisation of our infrastructure. In that role, I published two reports, one on the importance of a rapid rollout of 5G, so that we could be world leaders in that respect—as we need to be—and the second on the poor state of our 4G coverage, where we are well below international benchmarks and have been strongly engaged with Huawei. I am therefore very mindful of the importance of infrastructure modernisation and working with international partners in that regard.

However, it is clear to me at this crucial juncture, as we start the rollout of 5G and seek to improve 4G, that we have to do so sustainably. I do not believe that it will be sustainable over the medium term, which is what we need to look to in the rollout of 5G and what comes after it, if we are dealing with a Chinese regime not only systematically abusing human rights but doing so to a steadily worsening degree. If that is the situation we face, we need to move sooner rather than later in looking for alternative suppliers. I can say to the House from my experience of chairing the National Infrastructure Commission that we would not be putting ourselves at a significant disadvantage if we did not engage with Chinese suppliers. There are plenty of very good European suppliers of telecoms equipment. Our German friends—I always look to Germany as a model for how we should develop in these areas because it is normally ahead of us—have managed to engage in this technological development without the need to engage with Chinese suppliers. I am also mindful that our security partners, notably the United States and Australia, have given us strong public, and even stronger private, advice not to go with Chinese suppliers in respect of 5G.

We have heard in shocking detail from the noble Lord, Lord Alton, about systemic human rights abuses in respect of the Uighurs as well as within the traditional territory of China, but the House is mindful that we face an escalating crisis in respect of Hong Kong which is taking on a human rights dimension. It is the Hong Kong dimension that has most strongly alerted me to the fact that the situation may be unsustainable.

Covid-19: Business Interruption Insurance

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 17th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

I am more than happy to take the noble Lord’s concerns—and, I am sure, those of others in the House—back to the department. What we are trying to balance here is speed, which the noble Lord rightly focuses on, and clarity, which businesses also want. We all hope that we will get more of that from the Chancellor later today.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, businesses do not need clarity, they need cash. There is an absolute need for the Government to make it clear that they will change the regulations that prevent the banks providing the support that is needed. I am afraid that the Chancellor is going to have to get himself a helicopter. This is a major financial crisis on a scale similar to what we saw following the banking crisis. If the Chancellor is making a Statement to the other place, will we get the opportunity to have a Statement and discuss these issues?

[Baroness Barran]

On my noble friend’s final point about the opportunity to review those issues here, I understand that that will be dealt with through the usual channels as speedily as possible. On the need for cash and the need to change regulations, I think that is the point I was trying to make a few moments ago about how we sequence this. Cash flow appears to be the single most pressing issue, and that is where we are focused.

Football Association and Bet365

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 9th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Barran]

The Government have taken the issue of grass-roots sport very seriously and recently announced more than £500 million of investment in exactly that.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, 25 years ago, when I was in charge of gaming, among other things, at the Home Office, the rule was that operators were not allowed to stimulate demand. Bookmakers were not even allowed to be in the Yellow Pages. This has now got completely out of hand and we need to return to that system. The National Lottery was supposed to be just about the National Lottery—but, if you try to buy a ticket online, all sorts of instant gaming solutions are available. The Government need to grip this and go back—if not to 1996, then certainly to bring in restrictions on misuse, of which this is just the most egregious example.

[Baroness Barran]

My noble friend had an even more interesting career at the Home Office than I imagined. We have announced that there will be a review of the Gambling Act. My honourable friend the Minister for Sport said this morning that nothing was off the table in terms of that review, and we also announced in the manifesto that we would address the issue of using credit cards to gamble. So the Government have heard this loud and clear and are keen to act.

Social Media: Online Anonymity

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 6th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I am happy to be able to agree with the noble Lord. Let us be clear: when abuse exceeds the threshold and moves into criminality, in most cases so-called anonymous perpetrators are actually traceable, so they can be prosecuted according to the law. I recognise the public disquiet about this, and, as the noble Lord said, we are considering what more can be done, by non-legislative means but also, when required, by legislation—and there will be legislation. We will consider what to do about anonymous abuse specifically, and we will address that in the online harms White Paper, which, as I said, is due out this winter.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, does my noble friend recall that we got a dramatic improvement in attitudes towards health and safety when we made the directors of the company personally liable for it? Should we not do the same for internet service providers?

Gambling Industry

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 27th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, there are a number of issues there. First, the figures quoted by the right reverend Prelate apply to the total cost of gambling, not just to the NHS. Of course, he did not mention the other side of the equation, which is the £2.86 billion in gambling taxes, apart from national insurance, corporation and income tax, which the gambling industry raises to help pay for the NHS. We recognise the need for reliable evidence on the wider impact of gambling-related harm, so work is under way to bill this. On the funding itself, for treatment, it is our priority to strengthen the voluntary system and build our understanding of what is needed. We have always said that we want to see operators step up, and I am glad to say that donations are on track to meet GambleAware’s targets. If the actions to improve the voluntary system do not bring results, we will consider other options, but we do not consider it necessary at this stage.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, when I was responsible for gaming in the Home Office back in 1995, the rule was that firms could not do anything to stimulate demand. Casinos had a 48-hour membership and gambling companies were not even allowed to advertise in Yellow Pages. Given the disastrous consequences of this deregulation, with ads appearing on daytime television and in sport, is it not time that we reverted to when we had a workable and efficient policy?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

My Lords, for most people—the vast majority of people—gambling is not a problem; problem gambling is less than 1%. But I take my noble friend’s point that, for a small number of people, gambling can be a problem, and advertising could contribute to it. There is no reliable evidence on the extent to which it contributes, but we are putting tough new guidance into advertising to protect vulnerable people, including children. A large advertising public service campaign is being put out to promote responsible gambling. But advertising is one of the things we are considering, so I shall take my noble friend’s point on board.

Gambling Advertising

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Thursday 3rd May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The right reverend Prelate’s phrase that we have no grasp on it is pertinent—as I said, the evidence is limited. We are looking for more evidence, as is GambleAware at the moment. The protections are strong. No advertising that targets children is allowed, and that applies online and offline. When we publish the response to the consultation, it will be one of the things that we outline, and noble Lords will be able to see what our response was. We are very aware of our lack of evidence. We want to concentrate on protections for the vulnerable, particularly children.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, when I was in the Home Office some 25 years ago and responsible for gambling legislation, the rule was that it was not allowed to do anything that would stimulate demand. That included a 48-hour rule for casinos, and there was no advertising. We had a perfectly healthy gambling industry. Since then, we have seen a huge increase in problem gambling and all the difficulties that the right reverend Prelate outlined. Why can we not go back to having a rule that we do not allow stimulation of demand?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

It is interesting that my noble friend says that there has been a huge increase. In fact, problem gambling has remained stable over time. We have limited the amount that can be put in advertising. We had a review in 2014 and protections were strengthened. We consulted on extra measures in our gambling review, the results of which will be published shortly. We understand the issues. We want to have gambling effectively regulated on a voluntary basis—which, incidentally, is much more flexible to deal with changes such as online gambling than a statutory basis.

Personal Data

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Tuesday 17th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

One of the requirements of the GDPR, which will come into force on 25 May, is that you have to give informed consent. That means, for example, that there cannot be a pre-ticked box; you have to make an active and sensible decision on whether you give your consent. Companies are required to make it understandable and cannot just put a consent box at the bottom of page 25. Secondly, the amendment of the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, made age-appropriate design a feature, which I am sure will be developed, so when people produce apps and other things they have to take account of the age of the people who are likely to use them.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, I watched the Zuckerberg testimony and I have to say that I thought that a number of Members of Congress were perhaps not awfully au fait with internet technology. Given that he said that he took responsibility for the content, can my noble friend explain to me why Zuckerberg is not a publisher?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

This is a big change in the attitude towards how these sites operate. He is not a publisher because he does not commission the content. If he commissioned the content, he would be a publisher. There is a difference between that and taking no responsibility for it. As I said, social media sites are beginning to realise that they have to take some responsibility. People put content on his site. He and other social media have to monitor their sites to make sure that illegal and disturbing content is taken down as quickly as possible, but they do not put it on the site.

Brexit: Audio-visual Services

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Monday 29th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

I do not agree with that. The Government are carrying out the will of the British people and will continue to negotiate on behalf of the country to get the best deal that it can on leaving the EU.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, is not it obvious that, with our fantastic success and brilliance in creative industries, our future lies in free trade and a global market and not in being sucked into a protectionist racket?

[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The noble Lord is right to highlight the success of the creative industries. It is a world-leading example of what Britain does well, and we will continue to do that for the benefit not only of the EU after the negotiations but of the rest of the world as well.