Working Conditions in the Private Hire Industry

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and John Hayes

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Westminster Hall

[Mr Hayes]

The hon. Lady is right. The relationship between the app or gig economy operators and their drivers is very different from what we have experienced previously. She is right, too, that that brings challenges and may even bring significant risks. I do not want to say too much, because a legal case is ongoing and the Taylor report, to which the right hon. Gentleman referred, is also awaited.

What the House needs to know is that I am very conscious of this matter. I do not come to it with any prejudices, apart from the prejudice that I have described, which is that people should be treated fairly in their place of work. I have always believed that and will do all I can to ensure it happens.

[Frank Field]

While the Minister may not be able to satisfy my demands today, are we able to conclude, from what he just said, that he would encourage transport authorities to interpret the law in the way that he thinks, so that the most vulnerable are protected? Uber says that stacks of workers are so pleased with what it does. If we are to believe Uber, any ruling would affect a minority, but a crucial minority. Can we expect him to say something about that today or will that follow on from the Taylor report, which might deal with this specifically, and about the particular issue that people should be able to earn the national minimum wage by hour of work? Uber gets round that for many people now.

[Mr Hayes]

I may have some good news for the right hon. Gentleman in that respect, but I will save that for the very end of my speech, in order to build excitement. When I begin my pre-peroration, he can wait expectantly for the final part of my speech, in which I think I will be able to give him positive news of the kind he just mentioned.

I move now—I like to give people notice of these things, so that excitement can build—to my pre-peroration. The commitment I gave to the interests of working people and their pay and conditions is unsurprising, given the party of which I am a member. In my ministerial office, I have a bust of Lord Shaftesbury. Lord Shaftesbury, the great Tory 19th-century social reformer who, against Liberal opposition, did so much to free children from factories, fought for the ragged school movement and helped to reform asylums for those with mental health conditions. Mine is the party of Wilberforce and of Shaftesbury, as well as Disraeli, so of course I care about the welfare of the people and their interests. It may be unsurprising that I should do so, but that has to be a modern reality too. As the right hon. Gentleman said, we live in a different world now from the one that Shaftesbury, Disraeli and Wilberforce encountered, but human frailties remain, and the human willingness to do bad things, unfortunately, is endemic following the fall from the state of grace.

Having said all that, let me move to what I propose to do about this matter. It is not good enough simply to wait for the Taylor report, although we must consider that carefully, for it is a wider report. Dealing with the changing employment conditions we have briefly considered today, I am going to set up a working party in my Department, with an independent chairman, to look at the specific things that the right hon. Gentleman has raised as a result of this debate. I will consider in due course the terms and conditions of that working party, its membership and how it might have an effect on future policy.

Furthermore, as the right hon. Gentleman requested, I will look at the guidance issued to local authorities. They may be unaware of the extent of their powers and certainly of their ability to use them. He is right to say that there are problems with different local authorities interpreting those powers in different ways, and it seems to me very important that we give clarity about that through the advice we offer to local government.

Finally, I will engage with both him—I invite him to come to my Department and meet my officials accordingly—and the representatives of drivers and operators. Let us have a grown-up discussion about this. Let us expose what is wrong and celebrate what is right, but there will be no veil, no mask and nowhere to hide for people who do not do the right thing.

[Frank Field]

May I say one sentence?

Energy Bill

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and John Hayes

Wednesday 19th December 2012 Commons Chamber

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

Labour Members really are keen now to emulate us as the party of one nation, because we heard the hon. Member for Rutherglen and Hamilton West (Tom Greatrex) quote both Burke and Disraeli. I do not want to disappoint him, so I will start by quoting Mark Twain, who remarked,

“what is a man without energy? Nothing—nothing at all.”

It is in such energetic spirit that I begin to sum up this important debate. Let me say at the outset that we will certainly make the revised impact assessment available before scrutiny starts in Committee, and we will certainly, in the spirit in which I intend to conduct the Committee, make available draft material of the kind that the hon. Gentleman described so that, I hope, all members of the Committee get the chance to shape the Bill, as he suggests.

Let me give the hon. Gentleman another quotation—

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

Will the Minister give way?

[Mr Hayes]

Not until I have quoted Ruskin—that would be premature—but I will do so immediately afterwards.

“The first duty of government”

according to Ruskin,

“is to see that the people have food, fuel, clothes. The second, that they have means of moral and intellectual education”—

and who better to intervene on the subject of moral and intellectual education than the right hon. Gentleman?

[Mr Field]

On Ruskin’s point that people should have fuel, the Government estimate that 4 million people are in fuel poverty. To what level will that fall if the Bill becomes law?

[Mr Hayes]

As I hope the right hon. Gentleman knows, we are committed to helping low-income and vulnerable households to heat their homes affordably. As part of our work to redefine fuel poverty, we have announced that we will publish a refreshed strategy for tackling it in 2013—he will know, too, that that is the first such strategy since 2001—because we want to ensure that resources are used as effectively as possible. I will be more than happy, following his intervention, to go back to my Department and recommit to that, because I share his passion for the vulnerable. I have little power over food and clothing, although I will continue to do all that I can to make the case for moral and intellectual education. I can certainly say with confidence that the Government, through the Bill, will enable the market to provide the fuel that we need.

My hon. Friend the Member for North Warwickshire (Dan Byles) and the Secretary of State himself said that the Bill has been warmly welcomed. I appreciate the broad welcome that it has been given by hon. Members across the House, including by shadow Front Benchers. It deserves such a welcome because it provides a framework for certainty to bring heat to homes, light to lives and power to the people, as the Secretary of State made clear in his opening remarks. Most importantly, it ensures a future where the needs of the many, not the interests of the few, drive energy policy. Our utmost priority is that consumers get secure energy at the best prices.

Let me say a few words to my old friend, the right hon. Member for Oldham West and Royton (Mr Meacher). It is true that nuclear power is part of our strategy, but not at any price. Some of the things that he suggested are well outside what would be the acceptable range in the interests of taxpayers. I cannot say more, of course, because this is a commercial matter, but I just say again: not at any price.

The Bill will, in the terms that the shadow Secretary of State, the right hon. Member for Don Valley (Caroline Flint) described, bring about unprecedented investment. That is necessary simply to ensure that supply meets demand. As my hon. Friend the Member for Wealden (Charles Hendry) said, the certainty that comes from long-term contracted prices also reduces the cost of capital, which is vital. As the Secretary of State observed, this is a growth Bill. It will bring jobs and investment to every part of the UK, by providing a boost to the energy industries through developing the low-carbon supply chains that my hon. Friend the Member for Cleethorpes (Martin Vickers) said were so important to his area, as to many others.

I ask hon. Members to reflect on this: when we speak of infrastructure investment, we frequently speak of housing, transport, roads and rail, but let us from now on ensure that whenever we speak of infrastructure investment and macro-economic policy, we speak too, largely and loudly, of the importance of energy. That is something that can unite the whole House.

I share the passion of the shadow Secretary of State and the hon. Member for Glasgow North West (John Robertson) for a more plural and more liquid system. I agree that, under the system that will be devised as a result of the Bill, the energy marketplace will need to be more competitive, because it is through that competitiveness that prices can be driven down. It is curious—I will put it no more strongly than that in the interests of creating a consensual approach to the Bill—that the Labour party should say that, given that the number of energy companies fell from 14 to six on its watch.

It is still more curious that Labour Members are advocating a return to the pool. I do not agree with them about that. [Interruption.] The right hon. Member for Don Valley says that it is a different pool, but she will know that the National Audit Office has said that in effect, despite lower input fuel prices and reductions in the capital costs of generating, the pool—which was abandoned by the Labour Government, not ours—meant that consumers paid higher prices than necessary. There are real questions about the gaming that takes place in a pool situation and the effect that that has on consumer interests.

Fuel Poverty

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and John Hayes

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Westminster Hall

[The Minister of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change (Mr John Hayes)]

It is a delight to speak in this debate under your chairmanship, Mr Weir, and a delight to respond to the right hon. Gentleman, whom I congratulate on securing it. He is right that it is a trailer for tomorrow’s debate on the Floor of the House, but it is more than that because it is an opportunity for us to rehearse some of the important arguments. I do so mindful of the fact that he is an authority on these matters, whereas I am new to energy. However, like him, elevation of the people is central to my political mission, and I go further than many of our colleagues because I believe in the redistribution of advantage in society, as he does.

Redistribution of advantage requires knowing when the Government should act and when they should not, knowing when the Government need to step forward in some of the ways he described and knowing when stepping forward might obscure or limit opportunities to achieve that goal. Chesterton, whom I hope the right hon. Gentleman admires as much as I do, said:

“The honest poor can sometimes forget poverty. The honest rich can never forget it.”

I hope to be rich—I am certainly not at the moment—but I aspire to be honest, and I hope that I can deal honestly with some of the issues he raised.

The right hon. Gentleman is right to divide his remarks. Similarly, half of my remarks will dwell on what we can do to support the most vulnerable in respect of the cost of fuel, but it is also appropriate to talk about how we can change the character of demand and consequently deal with the other part of the equation. The big debate about energy sometimes neglects how to attune people’s demand for energy more precisely to their circumstances. That is the other part of what the Government can do.

I will deal with some of the specific points that the right hon. Gentleman raised. I often think that Ministers do not do so sufficiently, and I do not want to be accused of falling into that camp. He spoke about when the definition of fuel poverty emerged, and he will probably recall that it emerged in formal terms in 2001 as part of the UK fuel poverty strategy.

Before that, the definition came from a series of academic studies that began to look at how being fuel-poor was defined in relation to the average or aggregate spend on fuel in households. That was deemed to be around a median energy spend of 5%, which meant that if someone was spending 10%, the median would be doubled and they would be deemed to be fuel poor. The average spend on energy may have changed over time, and perhaps that is why we need to update our understanding of fuel poverty. However, that is the history.

I will say a bit more about the core group of poorest pensioners who lie at the heart of the warm home discount, which the right hon. Gentleman spoke about at some length. He was right to say that the measures we put in place must not be just about the provision of information, for provision of information alone is not enough. Some people with simpler minds than his believe that the provision of information and the exercise of choice are not only virtues in themselves, but automatically lead to virtuous outcomes. I have never believed that, never having been preoccupied with the concept of choice in those terms. The right hon. Gentleman may want to read “The Paradox of Choice”, which argues that sometimes not only does it not lead to a virtuous outcome, but it can positively inhibit virtue.

None the less, information matters to some degree. For example, there is a strong case for being clear about what information people should receive, and for making that information comprehensible so that instead of being presented with all kinds of different options and having to navigate a system that is ever more confusing, simplified information is provided to people about energy costs and bills.

A strong argument that has been put to me, and is part of what the Government have and will continue to consider, is that there should be some obligation, and that is consistent with what we have already done in our voluntary arrangements on energy suppliers. I wholly agree with the right hon. Gentleman that provision of information is not a sufficient end point, but it is part of the package, and we might agree that it is appropriate to address the issue.

By the way, none of my comments has been prepared for me by my officials. I would not want to be limited by that.

The other important point made by the right hon. Gentleman was that the mechanisms we devise to identify those with the greatest need must be as sensitive as possible to circumstances. Of course, that is partly because need is dynamic. People’s needs change—by their nature, they are not static—and to that end, there is a real opportunity to engage with some organisations that are experts in particular areas.

As the right hon. Gentleman will know, Age UK prepared a briefing for the debate and there are organisations that represent the interests of chronically sick people, who have profoundly significant energy needs, in terms of both heating and light. Disabled organisations and charities also need to be engaged in the process, and we need to be open-minded enough to draw in a number of sources to identify need. That is also true of Departments, and I shall cover that in more detail in a moment or two. It is important that we learn from the policy levers used by other Departments to alleviate poverty and that we share good quality information.

I turn to the warm home discount, which the right hon. Gentleman spoke about. We want to provide immediate assistance to those who need help with their energy bills and to help energy companies find vulnerable people so that they can be offered longer-term support. The four-year warm home discount scheme provides that help. Launched in 2011, it requires energy companies to provide help with energy bills to about 2 million low-income households a year, and it is worth about £1.1 billion over four years.

The energy suppliers are required to provide the majority of that support to pensioners on the lowest income. As a group, such people are particularly vulnerable to the ill effects of a cold home over winter, as the right hon. Gentleman highlighted. The characteristic of that group—I have also mentioned other groups to which this point relates, such as housebound disabled people and the chronically sick—is that, by nature, they tend to spend more time at home. They are often in poorly insulated homes and may be using energy highly inefficiently, as well as which, put simply, very old people, like the very young, need to be kept warm, so a coincidence of factors make that group particularly vulnerable.

To return to the point about information, it is also true that the most vulnerable often have the greatest difficulty with complex forms and the provision of information in an insensitive, over-complicated way. They may find it hard to navigate the system and, as a result, become relatively undiscerning consumers through no fault of their own. Therefore, rather than having to apply for the warm home discount, most receive it automatically without needing to claim. The right hon. Gentleman has spoken about that matter in the broader context of welfare reform many times, and I am hesitant even to address—I will not say “lecture about”—the matter in his presence, because he knows so much about it and I know my limits.

However, further to my remark about sharing information, I would advertise that through innovative work we have developed good systems to match data between the Department for Work and Pensions customer records for those on pension credits and the information held by energy companies. Although it is true that energy companies play a key role in the process, we have engineered an appropriate level of co-operation between Departments and the energy companies to identify the target group. This winter alone, that means that 1 million pensioners will receive an automatic £130 discount by 31 December, providing them with the certainty that they need about heating their home over the coldest months.

[Mr Field]

One million is about a quarter of those who would get cold weather payments and are in what I would define as the vulnerable group.

[Mr Hayes]

Yes, the right hon. Gentleman is correct. It is, of course, true that a number will not be found through such mechanisms so we have set up a dedicated line and a call centre will be established for people to make a simple claim. All those who we believe may be eligible will also receive a letter telling them whether they receive an automatic discount or need to claim by the end of January.

The warm home discount also provides help to other low-income and vulnerable households who may be struggling to heat their homes, including those on a low income with children under five and those on a low income who are disabled. I accept that the eligibility for that broader group is determined by each energy supplier, but it is against criteria that must be approved by Ofgem. There is, therefore, an independent voice in that process, and it is not entirely a matter for energy suppliers.

A further 230,000 homes have benefited in that way from those discounts. The big six energy suppliers are all offering those schemes, which I encourage every hon. Member to advertise to their constituents. They should broadcast the availability of the schemes and work with local community organisations, voluntary groups and charities in their areas to ensure that we get the best value from that work.

We could discuss fuel payments, cold weather payments and so on, but we do not have time; the other part of what we are working on is the Warm Front scheme, which is about demand and dealing with the consumption of energy in a way that reduces costs. The scheme provides assistance, as the right hon. Gentleman knows, to low-income, vulnerable households through the installation of a range of heating, insulation and energy efficiency improvements to private sector households. We have recently made changes to the Warm Front regulations to broaden the eligibility criteria and allow even more fuel-poor households to access the assistance available under the scheme, which has assisted more than 2.3 million households vulnerable to fuel poverty. It is, however, the scheme’s final year, so we again urge people who are eligible for assistance to apply to Warm Front.

The obligations on energy companies are an important part of addressing the problems. I share the right hon. Gentleman’s view that it is simply not enough to stay where we are in respect of tariffs. That is precisely why the Prime Minister addressed that matter last week and why I was able to say the next day that we would use the energy Bill to facilitate change in that area. A strong case can be made around the kind of proposals set out by the right hon. Gentleman and others, which essentially are about creating greater obligation in the system. I want energy companies, consumer groups and other organisations that I have described to help shape that, so that it is deliverable. The imposition of such an arrangement now, without a proper discussion, would be inappropriate, but the Bill will come before the House in weeks rather than months. As the right hon. Gentleman knows, the Prime Minister has made it clear that the Bill provides a great opportunity for us to address this issue.

Like one of my political heroes, Joseph Chamberlain, I am in favour of tariff reform. They may be different tariffs and different reform, but if it was good enough for Joe, it is good enough for me.

[Mr Field]

Mr Chamberlain split his party on tariffs; what I propose today would unite the Minister’s party.

[Mr Hayes]

I am a unifying figure. I bring together all the elements of my party and the coalition around an absolute, undiluted, unabridged determination, as I have described, to redistribute advantage, address poverty and elevate the people; my party and I regarded Disraeli as a hero before it became fashionable. To that end, we will address the issue of fuel poverty in a new way, mindful of the right hon. Gentleman’s comments. We are determined to make it work; the response will no longer be supine, but proactive, and it will assist those in the greatest need.