Business of the House

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I understand my hon. Friend’s concerns, and I heard her question at Prime Minister’s questions yesterday. She is freely able to bring forward that subject in an Adjournment debate or to seek consent for a Back-Bench debate to have it discussed in the House. The matter clearly affects the constituencies of a number of hon. Members, and I encourage her to bring that subject forward for discussion.

[Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

If this Session of Parliament runs beyond June, will the Leader of the House consider giving us more days for Back-Bench business and for private Members’ Bills? If he gives us more days, will he put the Bill I am promoting with support from colleagues on both sides of the House—for the automatic registration of children for free school meals and the school premium—at the top of the list on one of those days? That is the one move we could make between now and the summer holidays that would have a real effect on poor families.

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman has a long track record of pursuing social reforms of that kind, and I will certainly look very carefully at what his Bill proposes. Of course, the progress of business in the House very much depends on our success in getting Government business through. We have a substantial programme—it was set out in our manifesto—to bring forward and complete by the end of this Session. I want to make sure that the dates set for both the Queen’s Speech and for the end of this Session and the recess are consistent with our need to ensure that our manifesto is implemented.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 17th December 2013 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

We have tried very hard in difficult decisions to make sure that we focus as much as possible of the impact of necessary changes to legal aid on the higher end of the income scale. Our changes to very high cost case fees and the approach that we are taking to Crown court fees are designed to ensure that, so far as possible, the impact of our changes is much less on those people at the bottom end of the income scale than it is at the top.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

10. How many young people currently in young offenders institutions and specialist children’s homes are being held on human trafficking offences.

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Tuesday 21st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I will probably not be able to cover all the questions that have been raised, but I shall pick out some of the key points.

The right hon. Member for Birkenhead (Mr Field) made a passionate defence of the spare room, referring back to the days of Macmillan and to the principles of the welfare state. I know that he is often a champion of welfare reform, and I listen carefully to what he says, but I find it difficult to justify maintaining 1 million spare rooms in the social rented sector when large numbers of families are living in temporary accommodation and in accommodation that is too small for them. I do not believe that the spare room is a luxury that the social rented sector can afford at the expense of children living in temporary rented accommodation. Fundamentally, that is what this change is about.

[Mr Field]

But it is not about that, is it? If the Government are going to deliver to the Treasury the moneys that they say they are going to save, that will depend on people not being able to react in the way that the Minister is describing.

[Chris Grayling]

As I keep saying, that is not the case. At the moment, local authorities up and down the country are paying out large amounts of money; the right hon. Gentleman should talk to his own local authority about the challenges and costs of providing temporary accommodation. We depend so heavily on temporary accommodation partly because of the failings of the previous Government, going back 10 or 15 years, in the construction of social rented housing. I remember looking at the figures in the early part of the last decade. Had the Blair Government continued to build social housing at the same rate as the Major Government, we would have seen something like 300,000 more families in social rented accommodation. The fact is, however, that they did not. This was not a priority for them when they took office in 1997, and they cut back on construction. Today, we are living in extraordinarily difficult times, financially, and we are dealing with the consequences of the decisions that were made 15 years ago.

[Mr Field]

We are not interested in the Blair Government or the Brown Government; the electorate decided that they should come to an end. We are interested in what this Government are doing. Does the Minister not accept that if people followed his advice and moved into the private sector, far from saving the amount spent on housing benefit, such a move would actually increase it?

[Chris Grayling]

I simply do not accept that. The right hon. Gentleman is making assumptions about people’s behaviour and about the cost of temporary accommodation. We as a nation are housing in extremely expensive temporary accommodation large numbers of people who can and should be housed properly. At the same time, we are supporting 1 million empty bedrooms in the social rented sector. My colleagues and I believe that we simply cannot afford to do that at this moment in time. This is not the world of 15 years ago. We have come into government with empty coffers, as the right hon. Member for Birmingham, Hodge Hill (Mr Byrne) always reminds us. We are having to take tough decisions, some of which we might wish that we did not have to take, and we are trying to take them in as fair a way as possible.

My hon. Friend the Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) asked about foster carers. The foster carers of this nation are to be enormously admired for the work that they do, and I appreciate that this is a sensitive issue. In putting in place discretionary funding, we have focused specifically on those people. On the status of a foster child, the approach that we are taking is not to treat foster children as members of the foster carer’s household in the calculation of the appropriate amount of housing benefit. That is because we are treating them in a different way. It is consistent with the current treatment of foster children in housing benefit assessments for those living in the private rented sector, but we disregard the whole of the foster carer allowance that is given to the foster parents when assessing eligibility for all income-related benefits. That leaves the majority of households who foster substantially better off, so the payment is made through the foster care support system in order to ensure that the family has sufficient resource to make money available for support to cover the costs of those children.

The whole point of making discretionary money available is, as my hon. Friend the Member for Crewe and Nantwich (Mr Timpson) said, that there are of course situations where there is a gap in a foster child’s presence in a household. When the money is not coming in, we need to use discretionary funding to ensure that the family is appropriately and properly supported. We do not want to see foster carers forced out for the very good work they do; it is really important that we provide them with support.

In the last few seconds available to me, let me say again that a spare bedroom is a valuable asset. Taxpayers’ money is already being used to provide accommodation at social sector rents, averaging £79 a week in England compared with £160 in the private rented sector. Asking the taxpayer to find a further half a billion pounds to enable—

Welfare Reform Bill

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Wednesday 1st February 2012 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I will talk in more detail about cancer, which is one of the measures we are addressing. I accept that there are anxieties in respect of cancer, but the approach that we are taking to all our reforms, and particularly those relating to sickness and disability, is that we should not write off automatically any individual with a particular condition. Applying a one-size-fits-all measure to any one condition is the wrong thing to do.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

The Minister initially said that the Government are introducing their measures because they need to save money on the welfare Bill, but he also said—I hope there is great support in the House for this—that their measures will shape behaviour. Are the national insurance measures designed to shape and change behaviour, and in what way will they do so, or are they merely just to save money? In other words, is the Minister doing what the Treasury has required him to do on national insurance?

[Chris Grayling]

The important thing about that measure is that we must have a welfare system in which people have confidence. The principle of our proposal reflects the principle used in the jobseeker’s allowance system—people should get something back for what they have contributed, but not indefinitely. The Government’s measures simply seek to extend that principle to the group on ESA.

[Mr Field]

I do not think there is any agreement on that. Is it not possible to honour national insurance contributions and attach “seeking work” requirements?

[Chris Grayling]

The principle I described is a long-standing one that has been applied to other benefits, such as jobseeker’s allowance. It is important to state that the Government are not taking benefits away from people who have no other form of income, or from people in the support group who need long-term, unconditional help. The measure simply affects those in the work-related activity group. It applies to them the same principle that exists in jobseeker’s allowance.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

Of course it is not. We are saying that somebody should not be able to claim a benefit for the first time having not lived in the United Kingdom for many years. That is the argument that we put to the European Court, and it is a principle that we stand by. I emphasise that that is one of the reasons, but by no means the only reason, why we are taking this measure.

[Mr Frank Field]

Has the Minister talked to the Secretary of State about this? Would a more logical position not be that we get exemptions from the European Court ruling, and not distort our social security system to fit the European Court’s decisions?

[Chris Grayling]

I would love to secure a more pragmatic and sensible approach to the regulation of social security in Europe. I have been working on it for the past 18 months with my counterparts in other member states, and I hope that we will make progress as soon as possible. Right now, however, we must obey European case law as delivered to us by the European Court—much as it sometimes might be frustrating to do so.

I have a couple of technical points to make before I finish. As a result of providing for the new category of entitlement, in respect of claimants whose health has deteriorated to such a degree that they are placed in the support group—I referred to this earlier in response to the hon. Member for Aberdeen South (Dame Anne Begg)—it has been necessary to remove the substance of the ESA youth time-limiting measure from the original clause 52 and to insert it in clause 51 via a new subsection in section 1 of the Welfare Reform Act 2007. The Opposition amended that new subsection by changing the period of the time limit from 365 days to a period to be prescribed of at least 730 days. That is Lords amendment 19. As a result, the House will need to agree to amendment 19 but with an amendment consequential upon the rejection of the other amendments providing for entitlement to ESA to be for 730 days rather than 365 days. This will restore the Government’s intention.

A similar complexity surrounds amendment 22, which was voted for in the other place and which ensures that no new claims can be made under the youth provisions in the future—in effect, from whenever that provision is commenced by order. This amendment would amend clause 52 by removing the substance of ESA youth time limiting, which is now included in clause 51, but would retain the key provision in clause 52 preventing new ESA youth claims from being made.

I am afraid that this position is further complicated by the fact that also in the other place amendment 23 was not pushed to a vote and therefore also stands part of the Bill. Amendment 23 effectively allows claims to be made to contributory ESA under the youth provisions for those that are placed in the support group. We therefore now have two conflicting clauses for conditions relating to youth. Finally, if amendment 23 were to be accepted, it would reduce the expected cumulative benefit savings by around £17 million by 2016-17—savings that would need to be found elsewhere in the benefits system.

In the light of these arguments—the urgent need to address the fiscal deficit we have inherited and the need to deliver principled reform to our welfare state—I hope that hon. Members will feel able to support the Government.

--- Later in debate ---

[Chris Grayling]

When their child benefit stops.

[Mr Frank Field]

It is at 19.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Monday 18th July 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The hon. Lady is absolutely right. It is a marked contrast to the start of the flexible new deal under the previous Government when providers went for weeks and weeks without people being referred. I am very encouraged by the start of the Work programme and by the response of providers, which are contractually obliged to provide minimum levels of support to people who are referred. As far as I can see, that is precisely what is happening: support is starting and is working well. There are courses, support and learning taking place up and down the country.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

Should we hold out much hope for the Government’s Work programme if the Government are not successful in meeting their immigration target?

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman has raised the issue of migrant labour on many occasions. It is a challenge for Work programme providers to make sure they can deliver a work-ready work force to potential employers in areas such as his constituency to take advantage of the excellent opportunities that exist in companies such as the Contact Company, for example, which I visited recently. I strongly believe that if providers get local workers ready for the work force, they will be taken up eagerly by local employers.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Monday 13th June 2011 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

The other policy that we will be introducing later in the summer is work academies, which will provide a mix of a short-term segment of training and a period of work experience, again designed to provide young people with a first foothold in the workplace and to give opportunities to those who do not have previous qualifications with a view to trying to get them into employment and build a lasting career.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

May I congratulate the Minister on his statement today and on his announcement that the new Work programme comes into force around now? Does he accept, however, that at a time when there is a shortage of jobs, the new providers might well be placing in jobs those who find it easiest to get jobs anyway, and that we need a back-up scheme to ensure the involvement of those who find it most difficult to get jobs or who do not want to work? Will he keep his mind open about reintroducing at some stage the future jobs fund—not that he will do so under that name, but under a Tory name?

[Chris Grayling]

I am very grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for his comments. I do accept that there is a challenge in placing some people into work, which is why we have created a differential pricing structure to reflect the challenge of getting them into the workplace. The problem with the future jobs fund was the cost relative even to the outcome costs of other programmes run by the previous Government. Of course, in straitened financial times we have to seek not only what works in employment terms but what is affordable.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Monday 22nd November 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

I certainly praise the work that has been done in Blackpool, and I praise my hon. Friend’s work in supporting that activity. Not many people understand the scale of the social challenge in Blackpool, and the work that is done by organisations such as the one in his constituency is extremely important. I very much hope that the framework that we are creating for the Work programme will give local authorities and local organisations the scope to work alongside providers to deliver local solutions to some of the problems. I have no doubt that social enterprise should be and will be part of that. Local authorities can help to make that happen.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that there is considerable support on the Labour Benches for the point that my right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) raised? Does he accept that if we are to protect social enterprises, and if they are to play a greater part in welfare reform, that will require almost a total change in attitude from the big providers? Birkenhead had one of the best organisations—A&P Group—but it did not win the larger contract, and did not want to, and the large provider had no interest in making sure it survived. It was a huge loss to young people in the area who, until then, had had a Rolls-Royce service.

[Chris Grayling]

I am grateful to the right hon. Gentleman for highlighting such an important point. I have been very clear to people who are bidding for the Work programme that we expect them to demonstrate their ability to assemble a consortium or organisations with the specialist skills to help the hard-to-help groups. Many of those organisations are in the voluntary sector or the social enterprise sectors. If they do not demonstrate that ability and if they do not have those networks, they will not get the contracts. It is as simple as that.

Oral Answers to Questions

Debate between Lord Field of Birkenhead and Lord Grayling

Monday 14th June 2010 Commons Chamber

[Chris Grayling]

My hon. Friend makes an important point. The Minister of State, my hon. Friend the Member for Thornbury and Yate (Steve Webb), will be considering that. It is important to provide the right balance between protecting the pensions of those whose pension provision for old age may be at risk and ensuring that we do not drive businesses out of business as a result. We will be looking at this carefully and attempting to find the right balance.

[Mr Frank Field (Birkenhead) (Lab)]

Does the Minister accept that the future jobs fund offered real opportunities for the young people who were drowning in the prospects of employers’ refusal to give them work while at the same time it provided the Government with their only genuine test of whether somebody really wanted to work? Why, therefore, is it being cut when no other Government programme will achieve both those objectives?

[Chris Grayling]

The right hon. Gentleman knows that what his constituents and other people on Merseyside really need is sustainable, long-term opportunities. The future jobs fund will continue to offer tens of thousands of opportunities over the next few months, but what the young people of Merseyside really need is apprenticeships that can take them into proper long-term opportunities. That is what this Government will provide.