Assisted Suicide
Lord Faulks Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, I, too, am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, for bringing this immensely important matter before your Lordships’ House.
It is inevitable that any debate on prosecution policy—which is essentially the subject of the debate—in this sensitive area will lead to discussion of the law itself. This evening’s debate has been no exception. Whatever view you take of the law, the Director of Public Prosecutions’ policy for prosecutors in cases of encouraging or assisting suicide has brought clarity to the practical operation of the existing law and has generally been welcomed. But it is clear that views on the desirability of legislative change remain deeply divided, as is apparent from this evening’s debate.
Encouraging or assisting suicide remains a criminal offence. The DPP’s assisted suicide policy does not seek to change the law—and cannot do so as that is clearly a change that only Parliament can make. Nor does the policy provide prospective blanket immunity from prosecution—a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Alton—as that is also beyond the powers of the DPP. The policy simply provides guidance to prosecutors on how to apply the law in force. I remind the House of the Government’s view—one expressed by others standing at the Dispatch Box in the past few years—that any change to the law in this area is a matter for Parliament to determine as an issue of individual conscience. In amending the Suicide Act by Section 59 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009, Parliament confirmed that it should remain an offence to intentionally encourage or assist suicide or an attempted suicide.
Of course, a number of noble Lords have mentioned the Assisted Dying Bill introduced by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Falconer of Thoroton, in May 2013. That seeks to legalise in England and Wales assisted suicide for terminally ill mentally competent adults who are reasonably expected to die within six months. The Government will take a collective view on the noble and learned Lord’s Bill in order to respond to the debate on its specific provisions at, but not before, Second Reading. As things stand, however, no date has been set for Second Reading of the Bill.
As for the CPS, noble Lords will know that its primary role is to prosecute cases investigated by the police in England and Wales and to advise the police in serious or complex cases. As was helpfully described by the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald of River Glaven, the Director of Public Prosecutions has a statutory duty to issue a Code for Crown Prosecutors. The code provides guidance to prosecutors on the general principles to be applied when making decisions about prosecutions and sets out a two-stage test to be applied in all cases. First, is there sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of conviction against each suspect on each charge? Secondly, is it in the public interest to proceed with a prosecution? It is only when there is sufficient evidence to provide a realistic prospect of success that a case proceeds to the public interest stage of the test. It has never been the rule in this country that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution since—as the noble Lord, Lord Macdonald, explained—the public interest must always be considered.
In addition, the DPP publishes guidance to prosecutors on particular types of cases. These must be read in conjunction with the code. The Policy for Prosecutors in Respect of Cases of Encouraging or Assisting Suicide is one of those documents. The guidance is intended to assist prosecutors in making decisions on individual cases by setting out in one place the relevant legislation, case law, court sentencing practice, internal operating procedure and any specific evidential and public interest factors to be taken into account. The DPP’s assisted suicide policy was published in its present form in February 2010. As the House knows, that followed the judgment of the House of Lords in the case of Debbie Purdy and a public consultation on an interim policy to which there were 4,700 responses. The circumstances in which the House of Lords in its last case came to its decision were touched on briefly by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Brown.
At the time of its publication, and indeed since, the final policy received broad approval. It is generally acknowledged to be a sensible balancing of the various important considerations that need to be taken into account. It sets out factors that may be relevant when deciding whether a prosecution for assisted suicide is in the public interest, including questions of mental capacity—a matter raised by the noble Baroness—in addition to those already outlined in the code. However, deciding on the public interest is not simply a matter of totting up the factors for or against prosecution and seeing which side has the greater number. Each case is considered on its own particular facts and circumstances. The assisted suicide policy is very clear on that. The prosecutor should make an evaluation in terms of the weight to be apportioned to those factors before deciding whether a prosecution will be in the public interest.
Among the public interest factors tending against prosecution are that,
“the victim had reached a voluntary, clear, settled and informed decision to commit suicide”,
and that the suspect was “wholly motivated by compassion”. This has been interpreted by some as meaning that the CPS will not prosecute those who help terminally ill relatives to die. That is not the case. As the policy makes clear, it does not in any way decriminalise the offence of encouraging or assisting suicide or give an assurance that any person or class of persons will be immune from prosecution.
One of the public interest factors tending in favour of prosecution is that,
“the suspect was acting in his or her capacity as a medical doctor, nurse, other healthcare professional”.
This has been said by some to cause considerable difficulties for healthcare professionals because it is not clear what constitutes assistance. During the course of this debate, we heard several contributions from doctors. I have to say that, listening to the debate, I did not understand the noble Baronesses, Lady Finlay or Lady Hollins, to be suggesting that the matter of dying was not discussed. Indeed, I thought it was regularly discussed; the question was how you approached it.
The issue has given rise to a case, AM v DPP. The Court of Appeal, by a majority decision, including a dissenting judgment from the Lord Chief Justice, indicated that there might need to be some clarification of the policy, and the weight that the policy gives to the fact that a helper was acting in his capacity as a healthcare professional and the victim was in his care. The appeal was heard in December, and we await the Supreme Court’s judgment. I understand that it is likely to arrive in the next two or three weeks, although I cannot be emphatic about that.
My Lords, in exercising her discretion to decide whether to prosecute someone for encouraging or assisting suicide, the DPP is not doing anything new. Under the Suicide Act, there has always been a requirement for the director’s consent to a prosecution. In exercising that discretion, it has always been necessary to weigh up the public interest factors for and against prosecution on the facts of individual cases. Indeed the exercise of prosecutorial discretion applies to all criminal offences and long pre-dates the 1961 Act. The assisted suicide policy as a public document has clarified that process by informing the wider public how such decisions are made.
Noble Lords might want to know something about the statistics. Records show that from 1 April 2009 to 13 February 2014, 91 cases have been referred to the CPS by the police recorded as assisted suicide or euthanasia. Of those 91 cases, 65 were not proceeded with by the CPS, 13 were withdrawn by the police and there are currently eight ongoing cases. One case of attempted assisted suicide was successfully prosecuted in October 2013. The facts of the matter would not trouble anyone, whichever side of the argument they were on. It involved someone with lower mental capacity. Four cases were referred onwards for prosecution for murder or serious assault.
In exercising her discretion to decide whether to prosecute someone for encouraging or assisting suicide, the DPP is not doing anything new. Under the Suicide Act, there has always been a requirement for the director’s consent to a prosecution. In exercising that discretion, it has always been necessary to weigh up the public interest factors for and against prosecution on the facts of individual cases. The assisted suicide policy is a public document, which has provided some clarification for the process by informing the wider public how decisions are made.
The DPP’s guidance recognises that assisting suicide is a criminal offence. It clarifies how the discretion is exercised. Some would say that the deterrent effect of the present law combined with the compassionate exercise of prosecutorial discretion on a case by case basis, is a sensible balance in this very sensitive area. However, I freely acknowledge that strong views are expressed around the House and in the country about this matter. The fact that, looking back over Hansard, a number of contributors to tonight’s debate have expressed similar, although not identical, views before is in my view a strength. These matters do not disappear; they recur and will continue to do so. However, this debate, for which I thank all the contributors, has made a significant contribution to an issue which is difficult to resolve. Unfortunately, I cannot give any further guidance than what has been given by the Government before.
Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2014
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Lord Faulks
That the Grand Committee do consider the Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2014.
Relevant document: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, I beg to move that the Committee do consider the draft Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2014, the Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules 2014 and the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order 2014.
As your Lordships may be aware, these statutory instruments are a significant part of a package of secondary legislation required to bring into being the new family court. Section 17 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 provides for the creation of a single family court for England and Wales. This will replace the three separate tiers of court that deal with family proceedings. The High Court will still hear family proceedings, but the intention is that in practice it will hear only those matters reserved exclusively to the High Court.
The Committee will recall that the independent Family Justice Review recommended the setting up of a single family court as the current three-tier structure is complicated, inflexible and difficult for families and other court users to navigate. Parliament then passed a law creating such a single family court in the Crime and Courts Act 2013.
The new family court will be able to sit anywhere in England and Wales and all levels of magistrates and judges will be able to sit. This includes lay magistrates, district judges, circuit judges, High Court judges and above. This should enable more effective and efficient use of judicial resources and of court staff and buildings. These instruments will go a long way in ensuring that family proceedings, particularly those involving children, will be dealt with more efficiently, with delay being the exception.
When the new family court is implemented, the family proceedings courts will no longer exist and magistrates’ courts and the new single county court will not be able to hear family proceedings. However, as the family court can sit anywhere, it can sit in the county court or magistrates’ court buildings.
I turn to the destination of appeals order. The Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984 provides that if any party to proceedings in the family court is dissatisfied with the decision of the court, that party may appeal to the Court of Appeal. The Administration of Justice Act 1960 provides that if any party to proceedings in the family court is dissatisfied with a decision relating to contempt of court, that party may appeal to the Court of Appeal. The destination of appeals order aims to route appeals against the decisions of certain judges of the family court away from the Court of Appeal to the family court.
I will speak first about appeals against decisions in the family court, except those relating to contempt. The objective of this order is largely to enable replication of the current position whereby appeals from magistrates and of district judges do not go to the Court of Appeal. Rerouting appeals away from the Court of Appeal is not new. It is a well established principle that appeals should normally be heard at a lower level than the Court of Appeal. In the family court the intention is that they will be heard by a higher level of judge than the one who made the decision being appealed.
So the intention is that generally, for the single family court, the same judges will be hearing appeals as now, but they will be sitting as a family court judge, rather than as a county court judge or in the High Court. Subject to your Lordships’ approval, the effect of this instrument will be that appeals from a decision or order of the judges or officeholders listed in the order are routed away from the Court of Appeal to the family court.
For example, where there is an appeal against a decision of a bench of lay justices, or a district judge sitting in the family court, about which parent a child should live with, or whether a care order should be made in relation to a child, that appeal will be heard in the family court not the Court of Appeal. As I said earlier, this is not new. At present an appeal from the decision in family proceedings of lay justices or a district judge sitting in the magistrates’ court, or of a district judge sitting in a county court, is heard in a county court.
The level of judge that can deal with appeals routed to the family court by the destination order will be set out in a different statutory instrument under Section 31D of the Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984. It will be made by the Lord Chief Justice, or his nominated officer, after consultation with the Family Procedure Rule Committee and with the agreement of the Lord Chancellor. That instrument is not yet before Parliament, but I can reassure noble Lords that the plan is for appeals in the family court to be heard by a circuit judge, as now. However, there will be greater flexibility to ensure that judicial resources are used more efficiently and that the appeal is heard at an appropriate level. For example, there will be provision for a judge of High Court level sitting in the family court to be able to hear an appeal which would otherwise be heard by a circuit judge, where a designated family judge or a judge of High Court level considers that the appeal would raise an important point of principle or practice.
Noble Lords may have also noted that this order makes provision for decisions of certain tribunal judges and court martial judges to be routed away from the Court of Appeal. I should explain that this provision seeks to future-proof the legislation. These judges cannot currently hear family proceedings, but the Crime and Courts Act 2013 provides for more flexible deployment of the judiciary to make efficient use of resources. It provides for tribunal and court martial judges to be judges in the criminal, civil and family courts and for the judges of those courts to be tribunal judges. Although there is no immediate intention to deploy these judges in the family court, they are in fact judges of the family court. It would not be appropriate for appeals against the decisions of those tribunal and court martial judges listed in the draft destination order to go to the Court of Appeal, so this order routes appeals against any decision which they may make in the family court away from the Court of Appeal to the family court.
In addition, appeals against decisions by deputy district judges and justices’ clerks will be routed away from the Court of Appeal to the family court and be dealt with by a circuit judge sitting in the family court. Appeals from decisions of judges of the family court which are not listed in the destination order will go to the Court of Appeal. For example, an appeal from the decision of a circuit judge, or of a High Court judge sitting in the family court, will go to the Court of Appeal.
The provisions of the Destination of Appeals Order 2011 which relate to routes of appeal to a judge of a county court or to decisions of the Principal Registry of the Family Division when it is treated as a county court or care centre are revoked. The remaining provisions of the 2011 order are needed for the High Court hearing family proceedings.
I turn briefly to appeals against decisions relating to contempt. Currently the route of appeal for decisions concerning contempt of court is complex. The draft order we are considering today simplifies the routes of appeal so that appeals against such decisions will follow the same route as appeals against other decisions of the family court. The Crime and Courts Act 2013 enabled us to do this so that the process is streamlined and more transparent.
I now turn to the draft Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules, known together as the Justices’ Clerks Rules. The Crime and Courts Act 2013 provides for justices’ clerks and their assistants to give legal advice to lay judges of the family court—as they currently do in family proceedings courts—and allows for rules to set out where they may perform functions of the family court or of a judge of the court.
Primary legislation already exists that allows for justices’ clerks and their assistants to provide legal advice and assistance in the magistrates’ courts for criminal and family proceedings, and to perform functions of the court. Existing rules made under that legislation specify which functions they can perform. For the new family court, new rules are needed to specify the functions of the family court or of judges of the court which justices’ clerks and their assistants will be authorised to carry out.
During the passage of the Bill this House expressed some concern about which functions justices’ clerks would be able to perform in the new family court. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, put down an amendment at some stage which concerned this issue. I reassure the Committee that the draft rules being considered today have been agreed by the President of the Family Division as the Lord Chief Justice’s nominee, and were developed in close consultation with the Family Procedure Rule Committee. My noble friend Lord McNally gave an indication of our plans to the House on Report, and these draft rules reflect those plans. Therefore the draft rules allow justices’ clerks to continue to perform broadly the same functions as they currently do in family proceedings courts.
However, as previously explained to the House, they will be able to perform those functions in cases allocated to any level of judge of the family court rather than just when a case is allocated to lay magistrates, which provides greater flexibility. Therefore justices’ clerks will be able to assist in progressing cases, freeing up judges to deal with the more complex parts of the case. This should increase the efficiency of the family court and help reduce delay—something that we know can adversely affect cases with children involved.
These rules will also allow justices’ clerks to perform some functions for the first time. For example, these rules will allow a justices’ clerk to perform certain functions in undefended divorce or separation cases. These cases are relatively straightforward, but because of the volume of applications they take up a significant amount of district judges’ time. Allowing justices’ clerks to perform these functions will allow judges more time to deal with more complex matters. However, I stress that justices’ clerks will not be able to deal with any case where the application for divorce or other order is defended. These will continue to be dealt with by judges of the family court.
The draft rules also provide for assistant justices’ clerks, as now, to be able to perform functions when authorised by a justices’ clerk. In all cases, justices’ clerks and their assistants are subject to a duty to refer matters back to the court if, when considering carrying out an authorised function, they consider that it would be inappropriate for them to carry out that function. This is a duty to which justices’ clerks and their assistants are currently subject in the existing rules, so it is replicated in these draft rules.
I emphasise that although justices’ clerks and assistant justices’ clerks are employed by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, they are not subject to the direction of the Lord Chancellor or any other person when carrying out the functions set out in these rules or when giving legal advice or assistance to lay judges of the family court. They act independently, just as a judge would.
These rules largely replicate the functions that justices’ clerks can currently carry out for the court. They have been carefully considered by the members of the Family Procedure Rule Committee, and the president of the Family Division, who has agreed them. The rules will allow the extensive knowledge, skills and experience of justices’ clerks to be used, over time, to free up judges to deal with more complex cases and to improve the efficiency of the courts. I would further expect this to reduce delay and provide an improved service for families who need to use the new family court.
Finally, I will consider the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order which makes amendments to primary legislation required because of the creation of the new family court. Already a number of changes to primary legislation in the Crime and Courts Act 2013 are required because of the creation of the new family court. However, as is often the case with a change as complex as the creation of the family court, further changes to primary legislation are required to ensure the family court can operate effectively. Section 59 of the 2013 Act gives a power to make provision in consequence of the 2013 Act. This order will be made under that power and provides for various amendments to primary legislation which are needed as a consequence of the setting up of the single family court. It mainly replaces references in primary legislation to magistrates’ courts and county courts with references to the family court, as the magistrates' courts and county courts will no longer be able to hear family proceedings when the new family court is commenced.
The amendments to primary legislation set out in the order are required to ensure that the family court can deal with matters such as the enforcement of maintenance orders, which currently are often dealt with in magistrates’ courts but in future will be dealt with in the family court. The order also removes references to matters which will no longer be dealt with in magistrates’ courts. It will enable legal aid payments to be paid for advocacy in the family court, in circumstances to be specified in legal aid legislation. It also makes other amendments to primary legislation to ensure that the family court can deal with all the matters that it needs to, such as an application from a creditor in relation to a judgment debt, for information about what enforcement action to take to recover that debt.
The instruments presented today will enable the creation of a new family court that will be able to operate more effectively and efficiently, and provide an improved service to the families who need to use the court. The creation of a simpler court structure should make it easier for those who need to use the courts to do so. They will no longer have to work out to which tier of court to submit their application. Instead they will just submit it to the family court in their area and it will be allocated to the appropriate level of judge. Cases will no longer need to be transferred between the old tiers of court. Court users should experience a more streamlined and efficient service with a significant reduction in delays. These measures, together with others, will give the judiciary, working together with Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, greater flexibility and allow it to respond to differences in demand to ensure the most efficient use of judicial and court resources.
I hope that noble Lords will feel able to approve these draft instruments so that the benefits of the single family court can be achieved. I therefore commend these draft orders to the Committee and I beg to move.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his pithy and customarily helpful remarks. My questions stem from the most honourable tradition of asking questions in a Parliament to a Minister. Will he give specific reasons why the Government have resolved to end the interests of magistrates’ courts and county courts in these courts? That question is linked to another: shall we truly have more flexible and more efficient family courts? What were the magistrates’ courts doing wrong and what were their shortcomings? Why has it been resolved to end the historic relevance of the magistrates’ court with its three citizens? What insights have informed these decisions? Can we be absolutely assured that in the new arrangements the primacy of the interests of the child will be always borne in mind? Is that a reason for this large change? Surely we can raise this matter in this Committee and surely it has always informed Ministers and those who advise them.
Lord Faulks
I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jones, for his contribution to the debate, and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his observations.
The central question behind the speech given by the noble Lord, Lord Jones, was, “Why do we need this reorganisation of a family court, and why ignore the experience there was in the magistrates’ court?”, and that we should take into account in particular the convenience for local people to use their magistrates’ court. I quite understand that concern. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, quite rightly said, we will not lose that expertise. Magistrates will still deal with family proceedings, but within the overall context of a family court. Previously we had these various tiers, but now we have a unified court. However, they will all be the family court, albeit some will sit in magistrates’ courts, some in county courts and others will physically sit in the High Court, depending on the allocation and the level of the dispute. So that much-valued expertise will not be lost. What is intended, as I indicated in my opening remarks, is that there should be increased flexibility and a better use of appropriate judicial resources. I am not sure that those qualified lawyers who act as justices’ clerks would welcome being described as a lower level of judge, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, described them. They are very often qualified and, if not qualified, have a considerable amount of relevant experience, and they will not be given any tasks that they are performing now and will perform in future unless it is clear that they have relevant experience and expertise.
The creation of the family court was recommended by the family justice review. It was considered that the new structure would limit delays and simplify the whole question of people who go to their local area with a particular issue, which will then be allocated to the appropriate level of court. It will not be the enemy of localism, which I think was the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Jones.
Lord Jones
Will the Minister write on those questions that he may not be able to field, such as the ones that I have posed?
Lord Faulks
Yes, I will certainly write in so far as I do not answer all the issues raised by the noble Lords, Lord Jones and Lord Beecham. I fear that I will not be able to answer all the points, but I hope that I can at least reassure the noble Lord that the magistracy will still be involved in the matter, as it was before, and will not lose its expertise—it will simply be called something different. There is some reallocation of its tasks, but not a loss of its important role.
The closure of courts generally is a different issue from that which we are considering. There are always difficult arguments on the cost of having a court that is infrequently used as against the convenience for local people. We are of course anxious that the quality of decision-making should be high and that there should be convenience, and we do not anticipate that there will be a radical change in individual cases. The noble Lord mentioned the position in Llanelli, where he feared that there would not be enough local expertise. I am assured that there would not be a radical transfer unless the court service was satisfied that there was the appropriate level of expertise in a local area.
I turn to issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. He said that he was concerned that there had not yet been a specific route for the appeals identified. I indicated in the course of my remarks that they would be set out in a statutory instrument under Section 31D of the Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984, which would be made by the Lord Chief Justice or his nominated officer after consultation with the Family Procedure Rule Committee and with the agreement of the Lord Chancellor. The rules are made with the consultation of the committee, which includes expert practitioners, justices’ clerks and judges. It also includes a representative of the court users, so it should be possible before the appropriate tier of appeal is finalised for all interested parties to have an opportunity to have their views reflected in the designation. Although I understand the noble Lord’s anxiety, it is unlikely that he will find the organisation of appeals in any sense out of sync with the construction of appeals that exist generally in civil procedure—that is, there will be an appeal from a court to a higher level of court and, depending on where the initial allocation begins, a superior court will then come to consider the relevant appeal.
The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked a question about the consultation with the Magistrates’ Association, which was very helpfully answered by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who was able to confirm that it had been consulted. The statutory obligation was to consult the family practitioners’ rules committee, which comprises representatives of the lay magistracy, justices’ clerks and a number of judges, so it would have been included in any event in that consultation.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about payments to charity. I am told that the amendment to Section 194 of the Legal Services Act 2007 will mean that the family court will be able to order a party to make a payment to a charity. This mirrors the current position in the civil courts and applies where a party has been represented free of charge. It will be for the court in the individual case to determine to which charity the payment should be made. I hope that that answers that point. The noble Lord also made a point about the increase in costs and the fees for divorce going up. Yes, if it is dealt with at a lower level then I understand his point about that. A final decision has not yet been made on whether to increase the fees for divorce, although this matter was consulted on. I will certainly take back his observations.
Perhaps I have not quite sufficiently answered the question about the general sufficiency of the numbers of justices’ clerks. It is actually the case that the assistant justices’ clerks will be doing most of the work in courts. There are about 1,400 of them and the justices’ clerks are managers, so there is one in each area. There are 26. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service has assured Ministers that there will be sufficient justices’ clerks to perform the various functions which they are able to do as a result of this designation.
I think that I have answered most of the questions—no, I have not.
Lord Beecham
There is just the question of interest, upon which the Minister might care to write to me. I presume that he has not been briefed on that yet by those behind him.
Lord Faulks
The position is that I cannot give an answer, I am disappointed to say, but we will definitely write on that issue. I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied with the answer.
I am grateful for the helpful questions from noble Lords and, notwithstanding the reservations in the points that have been helpfully made, I hope that your Lordships will agree that these draft instruments are an important step in simplifying the family court system and making it more accessible to families.
Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order 2014
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Lord Faulks
That the Grand Committee do consider the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order 2014.
Relevant document: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules 2014
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Lord Faulks
That the Grand Committee do consider the Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules 2014.
Relevant document: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.
Public Bodies (Merger of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Director of Revenue and Customs Prosecutions) Order 2014
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Lord Faulks
That the draft order laid before the House on 16 December 2013 be approved.
Relevant documents: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 27th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee. Considered in Grand Committee on 24 February.
Social Welfare Law
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, I begin by congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Low, on securing this debate and restating my belief, and the Government’s belief, in publicly funded legal services as an integral part of the justice system. All speakers have made valuable contributions to this debate but I am sure that noble Lords will forgive me if I single out the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Peterborough for his excellent maiden speech. It is clear from his description of the wide variety of people and situations which he encounters in his diocese that he will be able to bring many valuable insights into our debates. I am very glad to welcome him.
Notwithstanding the Government’s continued commitment to the justice system, any discussion on legal aid funding must focus on the spending that taxpayers fund and must recognise the financial realities we continue to face. As noble Lords are aware, legal aid was introduced more than 60 years ago. It has expanded very considerably in scope to become, arguably, something it was never intended to be. The Government were, until recently, spending scarce resources—in effect rather encouraging people to take their problems straight to court rather than trying to achieve successful and often enduring resolution of disputes in different ways.
The Government were forced therefore to take a fresh look and did not embark on the reform programme lightly. However, the fiscal challenge and the spending review settlement required all departments to look critically at where they were spending money, the effectiveness of those interventions and whether they could continue to be justified. A conscious decision was taken, following the public consultation that led to the LASPO Act, that spending the limited taxpayer funding available to the Ministry of Justice on social welfare law matters, when the majority of problems in this area did not require legal expertise to resolve, could not be justified. This and other difficult choices were scrutinised, amended and debated by Parliament after a thorough and wide-ranging public consultation.
People do not always need lawyers in cases involving divorce, employment, education disputes and debt problems, and courts should be a last resort rather than a first one. These are the types of problems that can and should be resolved before tribunals or similar bodies, which are designed to be accessed by unrepresented individuals. However, with the introduction of the LASPO Act—and this is often forgotten—we safeguarded legal aid to ensure that it was targeted to those who needed it most, for the most serious cases, in which legal advice or representation is justified.
We estimate that following the introduction of LASPO around £50 million will still be available in legal aid for social welfare law, which will fund community care and other high-priority debt and housing cases. For those who need or choose to go to court, but who fall outside the scope of the legal aid scheme, there are other resources available in other forms. There are a diverse range of services available that recognise and match the differing needs of individuals, helping them to navigate the system and resolve their problems. I accept that the challenge is to ensure that relevant services continue to be available in a sustainable way. We have seen industries innovate and modernise to address changing needs and environments. It is essential that the advice sector does so too. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, spoke of the increased use of technology. There is also the support for legal initiatives. My noble friend Lord Gold referred to pro bono contributions from young solicitors.
However, the Government have recognised the various pressures that the not-for-profit advice sector would face, as different funding sources were affected as a range of organisations reviewed their funding positions in the light of the changing fiscal environment. That is why the Cabinet Office led a review looking at the long-term sustainability of the not-for-profit advice sector. The Advice Services Review report, published in October 2012, acknowledged that the Government have a role in supporting the sector to adapt to the new funding realities but also made it clear that advice providers would need to take the initiative and change the way they work, adopting often a more collaborative approach with partner organisations across the sector to ensure the long-term sustainability of supply.
In fact, the Government did not wait for the outcome of that report. Since 2010 the Government have provided significant additional support over and above their usual funding to a range of front-line advice organisations such as Shelter, CABs and law centres that provide direct advice to clients on matters such as social welfare law, to help them adapt and make the transition to the new funding climate. This includes providing half of the £68-million advice services transition fund, launched in November 2012 and administered by the Big Lottery Fund, which was referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Low. This fund has provided a total of 228 grants of between £50,000 and £350,000, which are specifically available during 2013-15 to help the sector to address immediate need and help to strengthen organisations for the demands that lie ahead.
The Ministry of Justice itself has worked collaboratively with relevant partners in the sector to ensure that clients continue to be supported even after the introduction of LASPO. In the lead-up to the introduction of LASPO, the MoJ developed a targeted communication strategy to raise awareness of legal aid changes and, in particular, to signpost clients not eligible for legal aid to relevant alternative sources.
My officials also worked closely with other government departments, legal aid providers, advice organisations and relevant third-sector partner organisations to raise awareness and enable them to provide effective information about legal aid changes themselves and details about alternative sources. As part of this, we developed and introduced a new and simple online service. Those words are easy to utter but, having actually tried out this service, I can confirm that it is genuinely simple and can be accessed by those who are not sophisticated in these matters. It is considerably simpler than, perhaps, buying an air ticket from a budget supplier. People can check whether they might be eligible for legal aid. Where they might not be, this service will signpost them to alternative sources. To date, over 194,000 clients have used the site to look for assistance, and we continue to work with legal aid providers and advice organisations on improving awareness.
I turn to the excellent report itself, provided by the noble Lord, Lord Low, and his committee. I have read it with great interest. There are a number of important factors about it. I particularly applaud that it does not simply seek the reinstatement of the status quo ante but rather explores a range of different possibilities. It will be a considerable source of assistance to all the parties as they prepare for the election. The colleague of the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, Andy Slaughter, has said that he will be mining the report for ideas. I know that there have been meetings at No. 10 and that there the noble Lord has met my ministerial colleague with responsibility for these matters, Shailesh Vara. It is an important document that will provide food for thought and inspiration for the way forward.
I welcome the fact that the report does not duck the fact that there are fiscal challenges facing this Government, which necessarily means that fewer resources are available and that hard decisions will have to be made about how they are spent. I also welcome the recognition that the advice and legal aid services sectors are in a period of transition and innovation, which, as the report states, offers scope for agencies to work more collaboratively and in more cost-effective ways in order to help their clients’ needs.
I assure noble Lords that the Ministry of Justice recognises the importance of encouraging decision-makers to get it right first time—a point made in the report and by the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, in the course of her speech—and of ensuring that we continue to innovate and improve the current system, as suggested in the report. I can confirm that the Ministry of Justice works closely with other government departments to improve decision-making. We are also considering the recommendations referring to the way in which Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service hears appeals. The Ministry of Justice has published a strategic work programme for those tribunals that describes how we are working to improve the system in line with efficiency, fairness and accessibility.
We have also established the Administrative Justice Forum, an independent body made up of a range of people who have direct contact and can represent views. We have made considerable progress in the improvement of feedback mechanisms on decision-making to the Department for Work and Pensions, with the introduction of telephone case management and the employment tribunal.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Woolf, drew an appropriate analogy to his work on access to justice and how that changed the culture and the way that we looked upon the resolution of disputes. That was referred to by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, as well. I am glad to see that the judiciary is referred to specifically in the report of the noble Lord, Lord Low, as providing significant innovation in dealing with litigants in person, which are a reality that we have to face. I refer in particular to paragraph 4.12 of the report. This is the world in which we live: judges would no doubt prefer not to have litigants in person, but they are responding well, using modern technology in assistance to make the system more user-friendly for those who do not have the benefit of legal advice.
There was a great deal of complaint made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, who I recognise has been a persistent champion of those needing social welfare law. He has also opposed almost every other cut, but I accept that he has made a particular feature of this area. He was critical of the use of the exceptional funding scheme and said that the Government were not, in fact, providing exceptional funding in the way that it was envisaged. I endeavoured to answer questions on that when they were raised in a Parliamentary Question recently. The position is that we think it is working; no doubt the forms might be improved, but we have to provide funding where there is a potential breach under the European convention or EU law. That is the position; that is what is provided by the Act.
There are many other features to which I would like to respond, but time does not permit me to do so. We acknowledge the many useful observations made during this debate and there is a great deal of value in what was suggested in the report itself, particularly in regard to the administrative justice and tribunal system. The Government will, of course, carefully consider these suggestions in the future and continue to incorporate them into our strategic work where it is appropriate to do so.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury
Can the Minister give any reassurance at all to the many who have spoken about public legal education, particularly in schools?
Lord Faulks
I cannot give any formal reassurance as to whether public legal education will be part of any schools curriculum. It is clearly an important feature in the report and is something that will be considered along with other matters.
Public Bodies (Merger of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Director of Revenue and Customs Prosecutions) Order 2014
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Lord Faulks
That the Grand Committee do consider the Public Bodies (Merger of the Director of Public Prosecutions and the Director of Revenue and Customs Prosecutions) Order 2014.
Relevant Documents: 17th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, 27th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, the purpose of the draft order is to give legal effect to the administrative merger that took place just over four years ago, on 1 January 2010, between the Revenue and Customs Prosecutions Office, which was the prosecuting arm of HM Revenue and Customs, and the Crown Prosecution Service. The decision to merge the CPS and the RCPO was announced in April 2009 by the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Scotland, who was the Attorney-General at the relevant time. The purpose of the merger was to create a strengthened prosecution service, to safeguard and improve the high-quality work done by both organisations in serious and complex cases and to provide efficiency savings. Those objectives have to a large extent been achieved.
The merger that took place in 2010 did not involve legislation. Sir Keir Starmer, who was then DPP, was appointed Director of Revenue and Customs Prosecutions as well. Since that date, the person holding the positions of both DPP and Director of Revenue and Customs Prosecutions—now Ms Alison Saunders—has been running the two offices under one umbrella. There is a single management structure and cases investigated by HMRC are now prosecuted by a specialist fraud division of the CPS.
Although the administrative merger has been a success, there are disadvantages in the two organisations still existing as legally distinct entities. First, it might give the appearance that the merger is incomplete and could readily be reversed. This might call into question whether the change is intended to be permanent. Secondly, it has practical implications for how the organisations work. The Government consider that a legal merger would bring about greater efficiency and effectiveness. That is why we are bringing forward the present draft order under the Public Bodies Act 2011. The Act provides for the functions of certain public bodies—listed in the schedules—to be abolished, merged or transferred. The effect of this draft order is to transfer the functions of the Director of Revenue and Customs Prosecutions to the DPP, thus putting the existing merger of the RCPO and CPS on a statutory basis.
As there is a requirement for Ministers to consult on proposals before laying a draft order under the Act, a consultation exercise took place in 2012. Views were sought on the proposal that legal effect should be given to the administrative merger and on whether the proposed approach would achieve the desired effect. Those organisations and individuals who commented—only eight did so—either supported the proposal or did not object to it. There was concern that the specialist expertise of the RCPO should not be lost; the Government agree that this is an important aim. As the consultation response explained, cases investigated by HM Revenue and Customs are handled within the CPS by the same specialist casework division that prosecutes the most complex and serious fraud and corruption cases investigated by the police.
An order made under the 2011 Act must serve,
“the purpose of improving the exercise of public functions, having regard to (a) efficiency, … (b) effectiveness, … (c) economy, and … (d) securing appropriate accountability to Ministers”.
I am grateful to the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee for its careful consideration of the draft order, and I welcome its conclusion, which was expressed in these terms:
“the Government have demonstrated that the draft Order serves the purpose of improving the exercise of public functions and complies with the test set out in the 2011 Act”.
I do not think that your Lordships would welcome a detailed description of the draft order, which—as is so often the case—is by no means as brief as my summary of its effect might suggest. As for its effect, I cannot do better than quote these lines from the Scrutiny Committee’s report:
“The Government present a convincing argument that the overall effect of the transfer of the responsibilities of the RCPO to the CPS will result in streamlining the process by including it in a larger group where economies of scale can be identified from using prosecutors and administrators for a wider range of duties. Although the economies realised by this Order are comparatively small, the improvements to efficiency are more substantial, with the potential for the more flexible structure possible under the new arrangements”.
I commend the order to the Committee. I beg to move.
Lord Beecham
I must begin by apologising to the noble and learned Lord. I had not noticed that he was here and obviously intended to speak; I apologise for that.
As I said, try as I might—and I certainly tried—I cannot find anything much to object to in the 19 pages of the order or, indeed, the 134 amendments embodied in it. The principle is clearly right and it is sensible to combine the two positions. However, although this does not quite fall within the Minister’s brief, there are still questions to be asked about the operation of the service as a whole, particularly in relation to staffing.
Of course we are only talking about part of HMRC for the purposes of the order, but within HMRC there have been significant staff reductions. To be precise, 1,697 staff left in 2012-13. That forms part of a significant reduction in funding of HMRC amounting to about £2 billion, or 16.5%, by 2015. The Chancellor’s reinvestment, as it were, of £154 million, which was announced with a flourish a couple of years ago, will not make much of an impact on that massive cut.
The question arises, therefore, about the implications for staffing on what had been the HMRC function. Will the staff be protected, or will there be reductions? The record of HMRC in recovering moneys is clearly not very good. The Public Accounts Committee criticised it for collecting more than £1 billion a year less in December 2012 than it would have done, had it had the relevant staff.
Another question in relation to staffing is: will those who will be employed in the completely unified structure be paid comparably to those with whom they will no doubt be locking horns in the private sector? For that matter, is there much of a two-way flow between the department as it is now constituted and the private sector? I am not talking about the prosecution side thus far, as far as I am aware, but concerns have been expressed about people coming to work for the Inland Revenue from the private sector and then going back to the private sector and so on. I am not asking the Minister to answer this today, but it would be helpful if he would let us know the position in relation to movement inward and outward of staffing, particularly on the Inland Revenue side.
One of the concerns raised—I do not think with any great force in the consultation—was about the need to maintain within the prosecution side expertise of Inland Revenue matters. The Government seem to be satisfied on that, and I am not challenging that assertion, but it underlines the need to keep an eye on matters. No doubt the Government will be reviewing the situation as it progresses.
A further point relates to the third arm of prosecutions in this country, which is the Serious Fraud Office, which comes under the aegis of the Attorney-General and is separate from the DPP and HMRC, which we are now discussing. Given the somewhat challenging history of the SFO in recent years, I wonder whether it might be opportune at some time to consider a further merger between that department and the structure that we are formally approving today. I am not suggesting that the Minister can give an immediate response to that, but it is something that his colleagues could look into. In principle, it might seem sensible to have a seamless prosecution service dealing with serious fraud and tax fraud and the other matters that come under the direct surveillance of the DPP.
Having said that, we certainly do not object to this order and wish the fully combined departments well in their endeavours on behalf of the public and the taxpayer.
Lord Faulks
My Lords, I am grateful for the remarks of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, for bringing to the debate his experience from Scotland and for endorsing the desirability of this move from that vantage point. As well as making certain economies, we think that it will prevent potential demarcation disputes of the sort to which he referred.
The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, as ever, probes slightly beyond the scope of the statutory instrument, as I am sure he would be the first to accept. On the question of staffing and training, there is perhaps one aspect with which I can help the Committee. The legislation removes the barriers to the staff of the CPS and the staff of the RCPO from working on mixed duties.
The question of training is relevant. The HMRC prosecution work will remain for the immediate future within the CPS central fraud division, which prosecutes cases nationally. Expertise already exists within the division and the new staff are trained internally. Where any HMRC work is to be devolved, this will be managed carefully and appropriate training and support will be provided.
I am given to understand that RCPO is entirely separate from HMRC, and there have been no staff reductions as a direct result of the merger. I anticipate that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, was talking of staff reductions more generally, but I can confirm that, in so far as the issue of the statutory instrument is concerned, there are no such reductions.
As always, I will take back his remarks and observations generally about the Serious Fraud Office and whether or not further consolidations might be made with profit, as well as his observations generally about staffing and the involvement of the private sector. I am grateful for those contributions.
We submit that the draft order is a modest but worthwhile measure. In effect, it will complete what was unfinished business and should enable improvements and efficiency to take place. I commend it to the Committee.
Civil Legal Aid (Merits Criteria) (Amendment) (No. 3) Regulations 2014
Lord Faulks Excerpts(11 years, 4 months ago)
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Lord Faulks
That the draft Order and Regulations laid before the House on 18 December 2013 and 16 January be approved.
Relevant document: 19th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, considered in Grand Committee on 10 February.
Legal Aid
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The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, the Government consider that the exceptional funding scheme is working effectively. We are monitoring its operation and will continue to do so.
Lord Bach (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his Answer as far as it goes. Parliament and the public were told time after time to believe that Section 10 would act as a safety net for those cases where it was manifestly unfair that the citizen should not have access to civil legal aid. However, the application forms are impossible for a non-lawyer to complete and a lawyer will not get paid a penny if the claim for legal aid is unsuccessful. Even worse is the fact that only in 3% of claims has legal aid ever been granted. The noble Lord was a member of the JCHR which, along with the Low Commission and many others, has recently criticised the working of this provision. Now that he is a distinguished member of Her Majesty’s Government, will he act to make this vital provision fit for purpose?
Lord Faulks
The provisions contained in Section 10 of the LASPO Act make it perfectly clear that it is there for exceptional cases where, in the absence of legal aid, there would be a violation of Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights or possibly of the provisions of the European Union. It is not about whether a case may be deserving; it has to fall specifically within the confines of the section. As to the application form, it was consulted on regularly and in detail before it became part of the process. I am surprised that solicitors are having difficulty in filling it in. It is possible for someone to fill in the form on their own and they can then have a preliminary view given to them by the Legal Aid Agency as to the prospects of success. It is true that the number of applications has been much lower than expected and it is also true that very few have been granted, but we are satisfied that the system is working in accordance with the section.
Lord Thomas of Gresford (LD)
My Lords, before the Bill was introduced, the Government said that they were expecting 5,000 to 7,000 applications a year. In fact, in the first year there were 893, of which only 23 were granted, which represents 1%. Is it not nonsense to suggest that this provision is a safety net for those who seek justice?
Lord Faulks
I can update the noble Lord by saying that in fact the total number of applications received is now 1,030, and the number granted is 31. I agree that it is a small percentage. It was difficult for the Government to predict exactly how many applications would be received. In fact, in some areas, including the area in which I practised, that of clinical negligence, there have been virtually none when it was expected that there would be very many. Trying to anticipate what might or might not be considered to be a violation of Article 6 has confounded many courts, not only in this country but also in Strasbourg.
Lord Woolf (CB)
My Lords, perhaps what the Minister has just said indicates that I may have been right when I differed as a judge from my distinguished predecessor, Lord Bingham. He took a narrow view of the word “exceptional” while I took a very broad view of it. I regard it as a word which should be used to ensure justice in all cases where justice is required. Does the noble Lord agree with my approach?
Lord Faulks
The answer to the noble and learned Lord is that it depends very much on the context in which “exceptional” is used. The context in which it is used in this particular section is by specific reference to the European Convention on Human Rights.
Lord Beecham (Lab)
My Lords, in answer to a recent Written Question from me, the Minister said that there had been 1,130 applications, of which 35 were granted, not the figures that he has given today. Be that as it may, what was the Government’s estimate of the number of successful applications and what did they anticipate would be the proportion of successful applications? Given that it has taken 14 months to reach a decision to grant legal aid in an important inquest case in which counsel appeared four times without any certainty of being paid, will the Government publish details of the times taken to determine applications?
Lord Faulks
In answer to the second part of the noble Lord’s question, the Government will be happy to publish the times taken. Indeed, I think that the noble Lord will be pleasantly surprised at how quickly these applications are being processed. In answer to the first part of his question, it was expected that some 3,700 would be funded each year. As I said in answer to an earlier question, it is somewhat mysterious as to why so few have qualified. Each case is considered separately by the Legal Aid Agency in accordance with guidelines given by the Lord Chancellor. All those doing this work are experienced and all of them follow the guidelines.
Lord Pannick (CB)
My Lords, the noble Lord said that Section 10 is working effectively. Will he give further consideration to the recommendation of the Low commission, chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Low of Dalston, that the application process for Section 10 is much in need of simplification? Will the Government act on the concern expressed by the Joint Committee on Human Rights about the lack of training for Legal Aid Agency employees who are responsible for making decisions about Section 10?
Lord Faulks
The Government are aware of the JCHR’s concern about the lack of training. I have been reassured that the employees are appropriately trained and aware of their responsibilities. In terms of the forms, I give the same answer that I gave before, which is that the matter is kept under review. It is believed that the forms are perfectly within the capabilities of solicitors to understand. If one of these forms is inadequately filled in, you are told, whereas with some forms in other contexts you never know which box you failed to tick.
Lord Phillips of Sudbury (LD)
My Lords, can the Minister say whether any research has been done into the number of cases of citizens who would wish to make applications but are unable to find anybody to help them in making those applications?
Lord Faulks
I think it is approximately 61. I will have to write to my noble friend with the precise number who actually made applications. Very often they are given a preliminary view, which they can then take to a solicitor, who will then be able, if he has been given some encouraging words, to take the matter forward.
Baroness McIntosh of Hudnall (Lab)
My Lords, will the noble Lord reassure the House, in view of the very small number of applicants who have been successful, that the Government have no plans to withdraw the funding before people have figured out how to fill in the forms?
Housing: Commonhold
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Baroness Gardner of Parkes
Oh! I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper.
The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)
My Lords, the Government have no plans to review the 100% rule for conversion from leasehold to commonhold.
Baroness Gardner of Parkes
My Lords, is the Minister aware that I have asked this Question repeatedly over the years and I have always had the Answer that it is totally impossible? That is on record in Hansard many times. Does the Minister think that, as we now have so many different Acts covering the same issues, even for the skilled property lawyer it has become quite a nightmare, and is impossible for ordinary people? Even today I am wandering too. Does the Minister think that it is time that the Government asked the Law Commission to review this legislation with a view to bringing in a consolidation Act?
Lord Faulks
My Lords, my noble friend Lady Gardner has been a doughty champion of commonhold and has indeed recorded her interest and Questions on a number of occasions, in the past decade in particular. Of course, commonhold is successful and well established in other parts of the world, particularly Australia. Unfortunately it has failed to attract much enthusiasm in this country. It was originally the creation of the Law Commission in the 1980s. Whether review of commonhold legislation might be suitable for the commission’s further consideration is a question for the Government ultimately to decide. They have to decide priorities in accordance with the protocol but will bear in mind what the noble Baroness has said.
Lord Clement-Jones (LD)
My Lords, as my noble friend the Minister has pointed out, my noble friend Lady Gardner has on many occasions very effectively brought to the attention of the House the defects in domestic leasehold law. He gave a rather dusty reply as far as the Law Commission was concerned but it has been engaged in consultation about its 12th programme. The decision is in the hands of the Lord Chancellor. Is it not high time that the whole question of commonhold enfranchisement and leasehold law was considered by the Law Commission?
Lord Faulks
My Lords, the 100% rule, which is the subject of the Question from the noble Baroness, was in fact discussed in some considerable detail during the passage of this Bill through Parliament—the original Bill having been introduced by the party opposite. For reasons that we suggest are substantial, it was decided not to make the 100% rule a part of the law. Unfortunately, commonhold has not proved to be popular and there has been a very limited take-up. There is no obvious reason why this should be, particularly with new developments, although I accept it is much more complicated when converting leasehold to commonhold.
Lord Best (CB)
My Lords, I declare my interest as chair of the council of the Property Ombudsman, which receives complaints from leaseholders. I fear that no one in your Lordships’ House will recall my maiden speech, during the passage of the Bill to which the Minister has referred. In that, I expressed considerable hope that commonhold would solve a lot of the problems that leaseholders face. That has proved utterly unfounded and this piece of legislation must be one of the least successful on the statute book. However, it works in other countries and this approach to leasehold in the future would bear scrutiny from perhaps—if the Minister’s own department or the Law Commission will not take up the cudgels—a group of parliamentarians. Does the Minister support the idea of a group of parliamentarians having their own inquiry to see whether we can break out of the logjam that seems to leave leaseholders in a very adverse position?
Lord Faulks
The noble Lord is right about the degree of success. The House might like to know that only 16 commonholds have been registered in England and Wales, and the legislation came into force in 2004. None of them is particularly large. The largest, which has 30 units, is apparently a caravan site and only one with four units seems to be a conversion from leasehold.
During the passage of the Bill to which the noble Lord referred a number of increased rights were given to leaseholders, in particular of flats, to allow them to take over management of the building; to make it easier for leaseholders of flats to buy, collectively, the freehold of their building; and to allow unreasonable service charges to be reviewed by leasehold valuation tribunals. Part of the reason for the lack of take-up may be because other advantages accrued to leaseholders as a result of that legislation.
I am afraid that I am not in a position to give any of the assurances that the noble Lord required from me, but of course this is a matter that goes across different government departments and all his observations will be taken back to the Secretary of State.
Baroness Hayter of Kentish Town (Lab)
My Lords, this group of leaseholders is very lucky that it has the noble Baroness, Lady Gardner of Parkes, speaking on its behalf. But does the Minister accept that there is absolutely nothing in the Consumer Rights Bill currently going through Parliament to help this group or any other group of consumers in any meaningful way on a group issue such as this? Will he agree to try to work with BIS to strengthen that Bill to help these and other issues where a group of consumers is not getting the requirements that it wants?
Lord Faulks
The noble Baroness is no doubt right, although I cannot confirm that there is nothing in that Bill that adds to the rights of potential commonholders. The position is that, although it has been available, it simply has not been taken up by professionals who might be considered to be aware of it—solicitors or surveyors. It has not been the subject of articles in journals. There simply does not seem to be genuine enthusiasm for it. That is regrettable, but it is a fact and the Government do not believe that people should be forced to go into these arrangements if they do not want to.
Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)
Having listened to the question of the noble Lord, Lord Best, will the Minister join me in suggesting to him that he applies to the Liaison Committee for an ad hoc committee to consider the matter?
Lord Faulks
The noble Lord is very experienced in parliamentary matters. No doubt that is a matter for the noble Lord, Lord Best, and he will have listened to what the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, suggested.