Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2014

Monday 3rd March 2014 Grand Committee

Motion to Consider

16:42

Moved by

[Lord Faulks]

That the Grand Committee do consider the Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2014.

Relevant document: 20th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments.

[The Minister of State, Ministry of Justice (Lord Faulks) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the Committee do consider the draft Access to Justice Act 1999 (Destination of Appeals) (Family Proceedings) Order 2014, the Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules 2014 and the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order 2014.

As your Lordships may be aware, these statutory instruments are a significant part of a package of secondary legislation required to bring into being the new family court. Section 17 of the Crime and Courts Act 2013 provides for the creation of a single family court for England and Wales. This will replace the three separate tiers of court that deal with family proceedings. The High Court will still hear family proceedings, but the intention is that in practice it will hear only those matters reserved exclusively to the High Court.

The Committee will recall that the independent Family Justice Review recommended the setting up of a single family court as the current three-tier structure is complicated, inflexible and difficult for families and other court users to navigate. Parliament then passed a law creating such a single family court in the Crime and Courts Act 2013.

The new family court will be able to sit anywhere in England and Wales and all levels of magistrates and judges will be able to sit. This includes lay magistrates, district judges, circuit judges, High Court judges and above. This should enable more effective and efficient use of judicial resources and of court staff and buildings. These instruments will go a long way in ensuring that family proceedings, particularly those involving children, will be dealt with more efficiently, with delay being the exception.

When the new family court is implemented, the family proceedings courts will no longer exist and magistrates’ courts and the new single county court will not be able to hear family proceedings. However, as the family court can sit anywhere, it can sit in the county court or magistrates’ court buildings.

I turn to the destination of appeals order. The Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984 provides that if any party to proceedings in the family court is dissatisfied with the decision of the court, that party may appeal to the Court of Appeal. The Administration of Justice Act 1960 provides that if any party to proceedings in the family court is dissatisfied with a decision relating to contempt of court, that party may appeal to the Court of Appeal. The destination of appeals order aims to route appeals against the decisions of certain judges of the family court away from the Court of Appeal to the family court.

I will speak first about appeals against decisions in the family court, except those relating to contempt. The objective of this order is largely to enable replication of the current position whereby appeals from magistrates and of district judges do not go to the Court of Appeal. Rerouting appeals away from the Court of Appeal is not new. It is a well established principle that appeals should normally be heard at a lower level than the Court of Appeal. In the family court the intention is that they will be heard by a higher level of judge than the one who made the decision being appealed.

So the intention is that generally, for the single family court, the same judges will be hearing appeals as now, but they will be sitting as a family court judge, rather than as a county court judge or in the High Court. Subject to your Lordships’ approval, the effect of this instrument will be that appeals from a decision or order of the judges or officeholders listed in the order are routed away from the Court of Appeal to the family court.

For example, where there is an appeal against a decision of a bench of lay justices, or a district judge sitting in the family court, about which parent a child should live with, or whether a care order should be made in relation to a child, that appeal will be heard in the family court not the Court of Appeal. As I said earlier, this is not new. At present an appeal from the decision in family proceedings of lay justices or a district judge sitting in the magistrates’ court, or of a district judge sitting in a county court, is heard in a county court.

The level of judge that can deal with appeals routed to the family court by the destination order will be set out in a different statutory instrument under Section 31D of the Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984. It will be made by the Lord Chief Justice, or his nominated officer, after consultation with the Family Procedure Rule Committee and with the agreement of the Lord Chancellor. That instrument is not yet before Parliament, but I can reassure noble Lords that the plan is for appeals in the family court to be heard by a circuit judge, as now. However, there will be greater flexibility to ensure that judicial resources are used more efficiently and that the appeal is heard at an appropriate level. For example, there will be provision for a judge of High Court level sitting in the family court to be able to hear an appeal which would otherwise be heard by a circuit judge, where a designated family judge or a judge of High Court level considers that the appeal would raise an important point of principle or practice.

Noble Lords may have also noted that this order makes provision for decisions of certain tribunal judges and court martial judges to be routed away from the Court of Appeal. I should explain that this provision seeks to future-proof the legislation. These judges cannot currently hear family proceedings, but the Crime and Courts Act 2013 provides for more flexible deployment of the judiciary to make efficient use of resources. It provides for tribunal and court martial judges to be judges in the criminal, civil and family courts and for the judges of those courts to be tribunal judges. Although there is no immediate intention to deploy these judges in the family court, they are in fact judges of the family court. It would not be appropriate for appeals against the decisions of those tribunal and court martial judges listed in the draft destination order to go to the Court of Appeal, so this order routes appeals against any decision which they may make in the family court away from the Court of Appeal to the family court.

In addition, appeals against decisions by deputy district judges and justices’ clerks will be routed away from the Court of Appeal to the family court and be dealt with by a circuit judge sitting in the family court. Appeals from decisions of judges of the family court which are not listed in the destination order will go to the Court of Appeal. For example, an appeal from the decision of a circuit judge, or of a High Court judge sitting in the family court, will go to the Court of Appeal.

The provisions of the Destination of Appeals Order 2011 which relate to routes of appeal to a judge of a county court or to decisions of the Principal Registry of the Family Division when it is treated as a county court or care centre are revoked. The remaining provisions of the 2011 order are needed for the High Court hearing family proceedings.

I turn briefly to appeals against decisions relating to contempt. Currently the route of appeal for decisions concerning contempt of court is complex. The draft order we are considering today simplifies the routes of appeal so that appeals against such decisions will follow the same route as appeals against other decisions of the family court. The Crime and Courts Act 2013 enabled us to do this so that the process is streamlined and more transparent.

I now turn to the draft Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules, known together as the Justices’ Clerks Rules. The Crime and Courts Act 2013 provides for justices’ clerks and their assistants to give legal advice to lay judges of the family court—as they currently do in family proceedings courts—and allows for rules to set out where they may perform functions of the family court or of a judge of the court.

Primary legislation already exists that allows for justices’ clerks and their assistants to provide legal advice and assistance in the magistrates’ courts for criminal and family proceedings, and to perform functions of the court. Existing rules made under that legislation specify which functions they can perform. For the new family court, new rules are needed to specify the functions of the family court or of judges of the court which justices’ clerks and their assistants will be authorised to carry out.

During the passage of the Bill this House expressed some concern about which functions justices’ clerks would be able to perform in the new family court. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, put down an amendment at some stage which concerned this issue. I reassure the Committee that the draft rules being considered today have been agreed by the President of the Family Division as the Lord Chief Justice’s nominee, and were developed in close consultation with the Family Procedure Rule Committee. My noble friend Lord McNally gave an indication of our plans to the House on Report, and these draft rules reflect those plans. Therefore the draft rules allow justices’ clerks to continue to perform broadly the same functions as they currently do in family proceedings courts.

However, as previously explained to the House, they will be able to perform those functions in cases allocated to any level of judge of the family court rather than just when a case is allocated to lay magistrates, which provides greater flexibility. Therefore justices’ clerks will be able to assist in progressing cases, freeing up judges to deal with the more complex parts of the case. This should increase the efficiency of the family court and help reduce delay—something that we know can adversely affect cases with children involved.

These rules will also allow justices’ clerks to perform some functions for the first time. For example, these rules will allow a justices’ clerk to perform certain functions in undefended divorce or separation cases. These cases are relatively straightforward, but because of the volume of applications they take up a significant amount of district judges’ time. Allowing justices’ clerks to perform these functions will allow judges more time to deal with more complex matters. However, I stress that justices’ clerks will not be able to deal with any case where the application for divorce or other order is defended. These will continue to be dealt with by judges of the family court.

The draft rules also provide for assistant justices’ clerks, as now, to be able to perform functions when authorised by a justices’ clerk. In all cases, justices’ clerks and their assistants are subject to a duty to refer matters back to the court if, when considering carrying out an authorised function, they consider that it would be inappropriate for them to carry out that function. This is a duty to which justices’ clerks and their assistants are currently subject in the existing rules, so it is replicated in these draft rules.

I emphasise that although justices’ clerks and assistant justices’ clerks are employed by Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, they are not subject to the direction of the Lord Chancellor or any other person when carrying out the functions set out in these rules or when giving legal advice or assistance to lay judges of the family court. They act independently, just as a judge would.

These rules largely replicate the functions that justices’ clerks can currently carry out for the court. They have been carefully considered by the members of the Family Procedure Rule Committee, and the president of the Family Division, who has agreed them. The rules will allow the extensive knowledge, skills and experience of justices’ clerks to be used, over time, to free up judges to deal with more complex cases and to improve the efficiency of the courts. I would further expect this to reduce delay and provide an improved service for families who need to use the new family court.

Finally, I will consider the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order which makes amendments to primary legislation required because of the creation of the new family court. Already a number of changes to primary legislation in the Crime and Courts Act 2013 are required because of the creation of the new family court. However, as is often the case with a change as complex as the creation of the family court, further changes to primary legislation are required to ensure the family court can operate effectively. Section 59 of the 2013 Act gives a power to make provision in consequence of the 2013 Act. This order will be made under that power and provides for various amendments to primary legislation which are needed as a consequence of the setting up of the single family court. It mainly replaces references in primary legislation to magistrates’ courts and county courts with references to the family court, as the magistrates' courts and county courts will no longer be able to hear family proceedings when the new family court is commenced.

The amendments to primary legislation set out in the order are required to ensure that the family court can deal with matters such as the enforcement of maintenance orders, which currently are often dealt with in magistrates’ courts but in future will be dealt with in the family court. The order also removes references to matters which will no longer be dealt with in magistrates’ courts. It will enable legal aid payments to be paid for advocacy in the family court, in circumstances to be specified in legal aid legislation. It also makes other amendments to primary legislation to ensure that the family court can deal with all the matters that it needs to, such as an application from a creditor in relation to a judgment debt, for information about what enforcement action to take to recover that debt.

The instruments presented today will enable the creation of a new family court that will be able to operate more effectively and efficiently, and provide an improved service to the families who need to use the court. The creation of a simpler court structure should make it easier for those who need to use the courts to do so. They will no longer have to work out to which tier of court to submit their application. Instead they will just submit it to the family court in their area and it will be allocated to the appropriate level of judge. Cases will no longer need to be transferred between the old tiers of court. Court users should experience a more streamlined and efficient service with a significant reduction in delays. These measures, together with others, will give the judiciary, working together with Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service, greater flexibility and allow it to respond to differences in demand to ensure the most efficient use of judicial and court resources.

I hope that noble Lords will feel able to approve these draft instruments so that the benefits of the single family court can be achieved. I therefore commend these draft orders to the Committee and I beg to move.

[Lord Jones (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his pithy and customarily helpful remarks. My questions stem from the most honourable tradition of asking questions in a Parliament to a Minister. Will he give specific reasons why the Government have resolved to end the interests of magistrates’ courts and county courts in these courts? That question is linked to another: shall we truly have more flexible and more efficient family courts? What were the magistrates’ courts doing wrong and what were their shortcomings? Why has it been resolved to end the historic relevance of the magistrates’ court with its three citizens? What insights have informed these decisions? Can we be absolutely assured that in the new arrangements the primacy of the interests of the child will be always borne in mind? Is that a reason for this large change? Surely we can raise this matter in this Committee and surely it has always informed Ministers and those who advise them.

17:00

Do the existing family courts not have great experience in handling these very difficult, delicate and important child-centred matters? We need to have some specific reasons as to why this long-standing experience of those courts is being put aside so decisively. Were these changes by the Government presaged in their electoral manifestos? Were they to be seen there, or has this come forward since the formation of the coalition Government?

Furthermore, can we have an itemisation of the kinds of bodies and persons that were consulted in the Family Justice Review? I note that paragraph 8 of the helpful Explanatory Memorandum to the Crime and Courts Act 2013 (Family Court: Consequential Provision) Order makes reference to consultation, but it is very hard to understand the nature of that consultation. On a matter as important as this, on an historic shift, we should be able to have some detail before your Lordships come to a decision.

Are the Government promulgating the view that the long-standing lay magistrate is incapable of thoughtful and sympathetic decisions when compared to a senior judge? We have heard judges of senior rank being referred to in the Minister’s helpful remarks. Is it perceived that wisdom now dwells only in the thoughts and mind of the senior judge?

On the Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules, are there enough justices’ clerks? I have established that for all of north and mid-Wales there is but one justices’ clerk, who is based in Llanelli, which is some 150 miles south and west. On that basis, it is a relevant question to ask. Are there enough? I have given that instance, helpfully and positively, and that is surely the case in other parts of England and Wales. That has great relevance to the issues that the Minister has so helpfully described.

Furthermore, is it appropriate to raise a problem that exists throughout the rural parts of our country—namely, the problem of travel? In many parts of England and Wales, rural travel sometimes does not exist in terms of bus services, which are not cheap or frequent and are never organised for a citizen to go from a village or a town to a given court. We should have some persuasive insights from the Minister on that issue.

I am thinking, too, of the cost of hiring a taxi. To travel even eight, nine or 10 miles is expensive. It is likely that the new proposals, as adumbrated by the Minister, will come down heaviest on the least favoured citizens of our communities—those who are not wealthy or prosperous. We should try, when we look at the details of this legislation, to consider the predicament of ordinary people: for example, the younger mother with a young teenager who needs to steer that youngster to the court. Members of this Committee may have greater insights into this than me. Without a doubt, ordinary people will find that the consequence of this legislation is to make things more difficult for them at a very important time in their family lives.

The closure of magistrates’ courts throughout England and Wales has gone on apace under successive Governments, and insufficient consideration has been given to the impact of the closure of these courts. It is reasonable, therefore, to ask where these family courts will be centred. In Wales, will it just be in Cardiff, Caernarfon, Mold or Swansea? How will the ordinary citizen get to those courts? It might be helpful if there were some consequential assurances on these matters.

On the same issue—consultation—the Family Procedure Rule Committee has been consulted in the course of drafting this instrument. The Explanatory Memorandum to the Justices’ Clerks and Assistants Rules says so. In all of this, has the executive committee of the Magistrates’ Association been consulted? Has it given a view? Is it the same view as that of the justices’ clerks’ organisation? Was there tension? Are there difficulties? Have there been differences? It would be helpful to know from the Minister whether that is the case. I do not wish to take up any more of the Committee’s time.

[Lord Beecham (Lab)]

My Lords, I begin by breaking the habits of my three and a half year parliamentary career and not only thanking the Minister for the clarity of his exposition—to which we are accustomed—but also confirming that most of what is in these instruments is agreed by the Opposition.

I reassure my noble friend, who has just spoken, about some of his concerns. The family court concept does not exclude the magistrates’ court and lay justices; it includes them. They become part of a virtually seamless provision for dealing with family court matters. Therefore, the magistracy will remain involved. With regard to my noble friend’s last question to the Minister, the Minister may or may not be able to answer it but I can, because I have put the same question to the Magistrates’ Association. It is content with this afternoon’s legislation and has no objections to any of the proposals.

[Lord Jones]

Is my noble friend giving guarantees on this issue?

[Lord Beecham]

I can report to the Committee only what I have heard directly from the Magistrates’ Association. I have not heard from the Justices’ Clerks’ Society because I did not contact it. The Magistrates’ Association has no reservations about these matters.

[Lord Jones]

But is my noble friend speaking on behalf of the Magistrates’ Association and is he giving guarantees?

[Lord Beecham]

No, I cannot speak on behalf of the association. I am not, as it were, briefed by it or retained by it, unfortunately, but I assure my noble friend that it has communicated with me in the sense that I have just described. However, other reservations that my noble friend has expressed, which are not, strictly speaking, germane to the matters that we are debating this afternoon, raise concerns which I share and which, indeed, I have raised from time to time. They are also concerns which the Magistrates’ Association shares—that is, the current size of Benches that have been amalgamated and the position now occupied by the justices’ clerks on those Benches. The clerks are no longer responsible to magistrates but are responsible upwards, as it were, to the Ministry of Justice.

My noble friend rightly refers to the accessibility of courts and the closure of court buildings. However, one matter to which he has not referred but which has caused concern, which I have voiced previously, is the apparent growth in the role of full-time or part-time professional district judges as opposed to lay magistrates. There is concern about the imbalance that that is creating. Nowadays, some cases are dealt with virtually exclusively by district judges and the lay judges have a diminished role in consequence. These are genuine concerns which I think we need to explore further, but not for the purposes of the legislation today.

I have in the course of my 40-odd years—some of them rather odd indeed—practised as a solicitor and have spent much time briefing counsel. I am experiencing something of a role reversal today, because I have benefited from briefing from a distinguished family law practitioner, Michael Horton. I do not know whether he is somebody with whom the Minister is acquainted but he is an experienced counsel dealing with family matters. He raises a number of issues which do not undermine the thrust of the regulations that we are discussing but in some instances suggest that a little further clarification is required.

The first issue relates to the appeal to the family court. Where, within the family court, does the appeal lie? In other words, who in the family court will deal with the appeal? The Civil Procedure Rules lay out a definition of who will hear appeals. At the moment, it appears that a new practice direction to the Family Procedure Rules will identify the destination of appeals—that is, not just the broad destination of the family court, which, as I have just emphasised, reaches from the magistracy right through, ultimately, to the Court of Appeal—but what tier of the judiciary will deal with it? I understood the Minister to say that that either has happened or is about to happen—that the rules will be promulgated. They are to come into force in six or seven weeks’ time. I take it that they have been the subject of consultation and I should be grateful if the Minister could confirm that. If, by any chance, they have not yet been the subject of consultation, I strongly urge that they be made so.

Another issue raised is not a criticism at all but it arises from a welcome change to which I do not think the Minister specifically referred. It is the possibility of funding emerging from the change in rules which will allow payments to be made to charities, to be ordered by the family court. I am not quite clear of the intention here. but one hopes that such payments could cover the advice services provided by voluntary organisations to those engaged in family disputes. It would be helpful to have clarification of whether that is in fact the intention. It could make a significant difference in facilitating support for litigants who are not able to pay for or obtain legal aid for advice, as would be the case in a number of instances, if voluntary organisations could be the recipients of money as the result of such an order.

17:15

However, Mr Horton refers to one matter which has apparently been overlooked completely. It should be said, of course, that arguably everything we are discussing today could and perhaps should have been dealt with at an earlier stage, but we are where we are. The matter of interest is one that I was certainly not aware of. At the moment, if an order is made in the higher courts—for example, the High Court or the county court—and a lump sum order is made which is not paid on time, it automatically carries interest at the judgment rate. However, there is apparently no provision at all for interest on orders made by the family court. I invite the Minister to look at that and, if necessary, to bring forward appropriate further regulations if they are required to ensure that interest would be payable on such an order. It would be anomalous if it were not; if other judgments carry interest, so, clearly, should payments here.

The final point is, again, not to offer any opposition to what is being done but to note the irony that the Government are allowing a greater role here for justices’ clerks, and indeed assistant clerks, in making decisions in what would basically be the simpler issues in family proceedings, such as uncontested divorces and the like. However, at the same time they are increasing the cost of initiating divorce proceedings. The fees will go up from apparently £410 to £750, while the level of decision-making will often be at a lower and therefore clearly a less costly level than now. The current cost is estimated at about £250 a case, so the Government are doing rather well out of this devolution of decision-making to rather lower-paid members of the family court, as they would be, particularly if justices’ clerks or assistant clerks were taking that kind of decision. That raises the question of the reasonableness of the Government increasing the fees in the first place. Again, I invite the Minister and the department to look again at the increase in cost that they are proposing, particularly in relation to cases which are of the simpler kind. I suspect that it should be possible to distinguish between those undefended matters, simple matters, and those which are contested, where a higher fee may be more appropriate.

Having said all that, we do not in any way dissent from the proposals in so far as we have them. Perhaps there are areas which require attention, and we look forward to the department and the Minister perhaps coming back with one or two modest further improvements to the position which we will reach today.

[Lord Faulks]

I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Jones, for his contribution to the debate, and to the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, for his observations.

The central question behind the speech given by the noble Lord, Lord Jones, was, “Why do we need this reorganisation of a family court, and why ignore the experience there was in the magistrates’ court?”, and that we should take into account in particular the convenience for local people to use their magistrates’ court. I quite understand that concern. However, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, quite rightly said, we will not lose that expertise. Magistrates will still deal with family proceedings, but within the overall context of a family court. Previously we had these various tiers, but now we have a unified court. However, they will all be the family court, albeit some will sit in magistrates’ courts, some in county courts and others will physically sit in the High Court, depending on the allocation and the level of the dispute. So that much-valued expertise will not be lost. What is intended, as I indicated in my opening remarks, is that there should be increased flexibility and a better use of appropriate judicial resources. I am not sure that those qualified lawyers who act as justices’ clerks would welcome being described as a lower level of judge, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, described them. They are very often qualified and, if not qualified, have a considerable amount of relevant experience, and they will not be given any tasks that they are performing now and will perform in future unless it is clear that they have relevant experience and expertise.

The creation of the family court was recommended by the family justice review. It was considered that the new structure would limit delays and simplify the whole question of people who go to their local area with a particular issue, which will then be allocated to the appropriate level of court. It will not be the enemy of localism, which I think was the concern expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Jones.

[Lord Jones]

Will the Minister write on those questions that he may not be able to field, such as the ones that I have posed?

[Lord Faulks]

Yes, I will certainly write in so far as I do not answer all the issues raised by the noble Lords, Lord Jones and Lord Beecham. I fear that I will not be able to answer all the points, but I hope that I can at least reassure the noble Lord that the magistracy will still be involved in the matter, as it was before, and will not lose its expertise—it will simply be called something different. There is some reallocation of its tasks, but not a loss of its important role.

The closure of courts generally is a different issue from that which we are considering. There are always difficult arguments on the cost of having a court that is infrequently used as against the convenience for local people. We are of course anxious that the quality of decision-making should be high and that there should be convenience, and we do not anticipate that there will be a radical change in individual cases. The noble Lord mentioned the position in Llanelli, where he feared that there would not be enough local expertise. I am assured that there would not be a radical transfer unless the court service was satisfied that there was the appropriate level of expertise in a local area.

I turn to issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham. He said that he was concerned that there had not yet been a specific route for the appeals identified. I indicated in the course of my remarks that they would be set out in a statutory instrument under Section 31D of the Matrimonial and Family Proceedings Act 1984, which would be made by the Lord Chief Justice or his nominated officer after consultation with the Family Procedure Rule Committee and with the agreement of the Lord Chancellor. The rules are made with the consultation of the committee, which includes expert practitioners, justices’ clerks and judges. It also includes a representative of the court users, so it should be possible before the appropriate tier of appeal is finalised for all interested parties to have an opportunity to have their views reflected in the designation. Although I understand the noble Lord’s anxiety, it is unlikely that he will find the organisation of appeals in any sense out of sync with the construction of appeals that exist generally in civil procedure—that is, there will be an appeal from a court to a higher level of court and, depending on where the initial allocation begins, a superior court will then come to consider the relevant appeal.

The noble Lord, Lord Jones, asked a question about the consultation with the Magistrates’ Association, which was very helpfully answered by the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, who was able to confirm that it had been consulted. The statutory obligation was to consult the family practitioners’ rules committee, which comprises representatives of the lay magistracy, justices’ clerks and a number of judges, so it would have been included in any event in that consultation.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about payments to charity. I am told that the amendment to Section 194 of the Legal Services Act 2007 will mean that the family court will be able to order a party to make a payment to a charity. This mirrors the current position in the civil courts and applies where a party has been represented free of charge. It will be for the court in the individual case to determine to which charity the payment should be made. I hope that that answers that point. The noble Lord also made a point about the increase in costs and the fees for divorce going up. Yes, if it is dealt with at a lower level then I understand his point about that. A final decision has not yet been made on whether to increase the fees for divorce, although this matter was consulted on. I will certainly take back his observations.

Perhaps I have not quite sufficiently answered the question about the general sufficiency of the numbers of justices’ clerks. It is actually the case that the assistant justices’ clerks will be doing most of the work in courts. There are about 1,400 of them and the justices’ clerks are managers, so there is one in each area. There are 26. Her Majesty’s Courts and Tribunals Service has assured Ministers that there will be sufficient justices’ clerks to perform the various functions which they are able to do as a result of this designation.

I think that I have answered most of the questions—no, I have not.

[Lord Beecham]

There is just the question of interest, upon which the Minister might care to write to me. I presume that he has not been briefed on that yet by those behind him.

[Lord Faulks]

The position is that I cannot give an answer, I am disappointed to say, but we will definitely write on that issue. I hope that the noble Lord will be satisfied with the answer.

I am grateful for the helpful questions from noble Lords and, notwithstanding the reservations in the points that have been helpfully made, I hope that your Lordships will agree that these draft instruments are an important step in simplifying the family court system and making it more accessible to families.

Motion agreed.