Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(14 years, 11 months ago)
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Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, first, I declare an unpaid interest as vice-president of the Football Conference.
It is a great pleasure for me to have been asked to take forward this legislation, which was introduced in another place by Jonathan Lord, the Member of Parliament for Woking, who was elected in May last year. I am pleased to pay tribute to his commitment to steering this Private Member’s Bill through all its stages in the other place, and to his extraordinary good fortune in securing a Second Reading before he had even made his maiden speech.
The Bill enjoys all-party support, and is one for which the previous Administration had hoped to find time but was unable to do so. The Bill, if enacted, will rename the Football Licensing Authority the Sports Grounds Safety Authority. It will enable the provision of advice, on request, about safety at sports grounds to any national or international organisation, person or body. It would also allow the new authority to charge for these services in certain circumstances.
The FLA was set up under the Football Spectators Act 1989, originally to oversee the introduction of a compulsory membership scheme, which at the time was seen—particularly by the noble Baroness, Lady Thatcher—as the best way to respond to the many incidences of football crowd violence in the 1980s. However, before the Act could be implemented, almost 100 people lost their lives at an FA Cup semi-final match on 15 April 1989 at Hillsborough in Sheffield. A major public inquiry was then conducted by Lord Justice Taylor, which reported that the scale of the disaster might have been even worse had a compulsory membership scheme been in force. That section of the Act was then shelved and has not reappeared since.
Instead, Lord Justice Taylor’s principal recommendation was that the grounds of Britain’s professional football clubs should eliminate standing and become all-seated. This was accepted by the Conservative Government of the day, and supported by subsequent Labour Administrations. The one variation was to exempt clubs in the lower two divisions of the Football League from the requirement to go all-seated. The Football Licensing Authority was given the responsibility of licensing grounds and helping to ensure spectator safety. It is the author of the world’s leading sports safety publication, known as the Green Guide. Its expertise is valued and respected nationally and internationally. No other country has an organisation quite like the FLA. It is a lean and efficient organisation that offers excellent value for money. It has a small but experienced workforce, including nine inspectors who are based in the regions. These inspectors work closely with football clubs and local authorities to educate, advise and influence. The majority of football spectators who attend matches on a weekly basis are unaware of the outstanding work of the FLA behind the scenes to help ensure that their experience is safe, comfortable and secure, and the FLA works hard to ensure that this experience should be available to all spectators, regardless of age, gender, ethnic origin, disability or, indeed, the team that they support.
The proposed changes will not extend the FLA’s licensing functions, or local authority oversight duties under the 1989 Act to sports grounds other than football grounds. There will therefore be no increased regulatory burden. Extending the FLA’s advisory role will, however, make it easier to provide advice to a wider range of sports and bodies as we approach some of the biggest sporting events that this country has ever staged. These include the London 2012 Olympics and Paralympics, and the Rugby World Cup in 2015.
Lord Mawhinney
I am extremely grateful to the noble Lord, who is an expert. I declare an interest as honorary president of the Football League, and for the past seven and a half years as its chairman, so I endorse all the good things that he says about the Football Licensing Authority. Given that this is an up-to-date reflection of a 1989 Act of Parliament, is it not missing an opportunity to allow the Football Licensing Authority to promote safety as well as to offer advice on it?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I take this opportunity to remind the House that it is most effective to allow the noble Lord proposing a Bill to lay out his stall and then for debate to proceed in the normal way.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
I am most grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, for his kind words. I would like to reflect on what he has said. Perhaps I can respond to him when I reply to the debate. I certainly understand completely the point he is making about the importance of promoting safety.
The FLA is already providing expertise on non-football venues to the London Organising Committee of the Olympic Games and the joint local authority regulatory services. However, at present, this is possible only by negotiating individual temporary secondment arrangements. Creating the Sports Grounds Safety Authority would make it easier to provide such advice and help to provide greater consistency in its application nationally and internationally. An example of this can be seen in the Green Guide. The FLA is retained by the DCMS to provide detailed guidance on measures to improve safety at sports grounds through the Green Guide. The advice applies to all sports, not just football, and is used around the world by technical specialists such as architects and engineers, and by relevant authorities that oversee safety in sports stadia. Although the guidance applies only to outdoor sports venues, its recommendations are often applied to indoor sporting venues as well.
At present, the FLA cannot readily offer more detailed advice on the contents of the Green Guide to sports other than football, or outside England and Wales. This Bill will enable that advice to be provided nationally and internationally, and to a much wider range of sports than ever before. The FLA carries out some international activity, but it is at the moment somewhat limited. The FLA currently supports the Council of Europe and the European Committee for Standardisation by providing UK representatives to their working groups. The FLA’s contribution is highly valued by their international counterparts, and their involvement enhances the FLA’s knowledge, understanding and credibility. This activity brings reputational benefits for the UK, with the chance to promote our role as a world leader in sports ground safety throughout Europe. However, under current provisions, the FLA is constrained in the extent to which it can operate at an international level.
The Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill would increase the opportunities for international activity at a very opportune time. In 2012, Poland and Ukraine will host the European Championships. In 2014, Brazil will host the World Cup, and Russia and Qatar have already begun preparations for 2018 and 2022. The FLA is uniquely placed to offer expertise and guidance to help ensure that the safety management arrangements are in place for these events and are properly robust. It is important that the FLA acts now to realise those benefits, and this legislation would help it do so.
In the other place, questions were rightly asked about costs as well as benefits. One or two of your Lordships who are speaking in this debate might wish to raise the subject of costs. The provisions in the Bill would enable the Sports Grounds Safety Authority to charge in certain circumstances. The legislation allows for charges to be applied, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to bodies or persons outside England or Wales, or to bodies in England and Wales where the advice is provided at the request of the recipient. The key point here is that consent would be required. It has been made clear that any charges levied would be reasonable and proportionate, and that, where charges were applied, they would be calculated on a cost recovery basis. In the event that the Bill is successful, the Sports Grounds Safety Authority would need to look in more detail at the options for charging and cost recovery. However, I have been assured that the requirement to seek permission from the Secretary of State will offer appropriate safeguards. I should say that, in bringing forward this legislation, it was never the intention to apply charges for activities that are currently provided free of charge. However, it will be important for the authority to be able to levy charges that are appropriate and necessary, particularly for new or additional services, or services that are provided above and beyond the authority’s statutory obligations.
The provisions in the Bill extend to England and Wales only. However, bodies in Scotland and Northern Ireland will be able to access the expertise of the new Sports Grounds Safety Authority on request. The FLA has been in contact with officials in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland about provisions in the Bill and will continue to keep in touch with them as more detailed plans for how the new safety authority will operate are developed.
Establishing the Sports Grounds Safety Authority is an important and necessary step in the evolution of the FLA. In Committee on the Public Bodies Bill, the noble Baroness, Lady Rawlings, said in response to me that the FLA,
“will continue as a separate body … until after 2012 when its expertise and functions will be transferred”—[Official Report, 11/1/11; col. 1345.]
elsewhere. I think the Minister would be the first to admit that this was a slightly vague commitment. I hope that we shall hear more from the Government about where the authority will be located before the Bill completes its passage through your Lordships’ House.
Before I conclude, the House may find it convenient if I quickly run through the various parts of the Bill. Part 1 sets out the further powers that will be conferred on the Football Licensing Authority as a result of the legislation. Clause 1 would rename the Football Licensing Authority the Sports Grounds Safety Authority. The existing functions of the Football Licensing Authority, as set out in the Football Spectators Act 1989, will remain, and the authority will continue to receive funds from the Secretary of State. Funding will be as set out in the current funding settlement, with grant in aid of £1.197 million in 2011-12, reducing to £1.14 million by 2014-15.
Clause 2 provides for the authority to advise Ministers by placing an obligation on the authority to advise Ministers, if requested, on sports grounds or the functions set out in the relevant legislation or sections of legislation. These include the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, Part 3 of the Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987 and the Football Spectators Act 1989.
Clause 3 allows the authority to advise on safety at sports grounds to local authorities, other bodies or persons in England and Wales. This enables the authority to provide advice beyond football and in relation to other sports grounds.
Clause 4 enables the authority to provide advice to bodies or persons outside England and Wales, subject to that advice being at the request of the body or person concerned, and with the consent of the Secretary of State. This could include an international organisation or Government, or other body or person with responsibilities for sports grounds outside England and Wales, and would include the local and national government and sports bodies in Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Clause 5 includes provisions to enable the authority, with the consent of the Secretary of State, to charge a fee for advice. The fee could be charged to bodies or persons outside England and Wales, or within England and Wales where the advice is provided at their request. Any fee charged must not exceed the cost of providing the advice, and consent from the Secretary of State may be given generally or specifically for particular advice or types of advice.
Clause 6 makes provision for the consequential amendments that will be required in other legislation to reflect the change to the new body. These are set out in more detail in Schedules 2 and 3.
Clause 7 confirms that the Act extends to England and Wales only. However, as I have said, the authority will be able, under certain conditions, to advise bodies outside England and Wales.
Clause 8 provides for the commencement of the Act on a day specified by statutory instrument. It is the intention that the legislation, if passed, should commence as soon as possible to enable the full benefit of the authority’s expanded role to be realised.
Schedule 1 sets out provisions relating to the board, employees and accounting arrangements of the authority. These would mirror arrangements that are currently in place for the FLA.
Schedules 2 and 3 include consequential amendments, repeals and revocations that are required to update existing legislation in the event that the Bill is passed.
The Bill provides a unique opportunity to share the FLA’s unrivalled knowledge and experience with other sports and nations. It will maintain the services and standards provided to football, but will extend the FLA’s reach and influence for wider benefit. I commend the Bill to the House, and I beg to move.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I am a little overwhelmed by the degree of support that this Bill has received in all parts of the House. It is very gratifying and I am sure that when the honourable Member for Woking comes to read this debate, he, too, will be gratified that this Bill has had so much success. I am not allowed to refer to the fact that he is here listening to it.
In taking up some of the points raised, perhaps I can start with the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, who asked why we do not take advantage of using the Bill to promote safety. That is a good question but the FLA already has a remit to promote safety, which it does though education, advice and persuasion. It takes the view that the publication of the Green Guide and its safety management booklets are part of that promotion of safety. It also runs a number of courses at places such as the Emergency Planning College in York to do that. That part of the FLA's work is already under way, so the promotion of safety is covered.
A number of similar comments were made by several noble Lords. The noble Lord, Lord Addington, was concerned—as I would expect from a great rugby player—about the role of the FLA in helping rugby. The authorities in both rugby union and rugby league are already very interested in talking to the FLA. So are the authorities for cricket and horseracing. They are keen to seek advice and talk about the experience that the FLA has had. The hope is that with the passage of the Bill, the work can be extended. I say to my noble friend Lady Billingham that if tennis authorities are concerned about safety at their institutions, the opportunity is there for them as well.
My noble friend Lord Watson, in an interesting and thoughtful speech, raised a number of subjects that I will try to cover. First, I thank him for his kind words about the role that I played in the 1970s and 1980s. The body of which I was deputy chairman—which the late Lord Aberdare chaired—was the Football Trust. The Football Grounds Improvement Trust was a sister organisation. We were charged with providing the funding to assist football to comply with the provisions of the Hillsborough report from Lord Justice Taylor. The safety work had been carried out from 1975 onwards by the Football Grounds Improvement Trust.
If plaudits are being offered to people working in this area, my noble friend Lord Pendry, who succeeded Lord Aberdare as chairman of the Football Trust, and was then the first chairman of the Football Foundation, also deserves a great deal of credit. There has been a consistent, cross-party approach to these matters. We have all done our best to ensure that the terrible disasters that occurred in the 1970s and 1980s are not repeated.
My noble friend Lord Watson referred to AFC Wimbledon, which may next Saturday be members of the Football League. It is already in discussion with the Football Licensing Authority, and I am assured that its ground will comply with Football League standards and the requirements of the FLA, and will obtain a licence.
The Minister answered the difficult question, which I did not wish to enter into, about the reintroduction of standing at matches. That is not a matter for me; it is one of public policy. The FLA will do what the Minister asks. She has given her view on whether standing will come back at the top level, in the Premiership and Championship.
My noble friend Lord Grantchester also made some important points. He referred of course to Hillsborough. I, too, have a personal recollection; I was there on that day and it was the most terrible event at any sporting occasion that one could imagine. Certainly it gave all of us a sense that the world had to change and that we could never run the risk of similar things happening in future. The report from Lord Justice Taylor and the establishment of the Football Licensing Authority, with its role after Hillsborough, are important elements of that.
My noble friend Lord Davies of Oldham asked searching questions about funding, which the Minister answered. The funding of the FLA is a matter for the DCMS, not for me. However, I am assured that the FLA takes the view that it came out of the spending review settlement rather more favourably than other bodies, and I have heard no suggestion that it will not be able to take on the increased role that the Bill will give it if it becomes an Act. A number of noble Lords, including the Minister, made it clear that charges will be proportionate and will be based on cost recovery. There is no question of the grant in aid that the FLA receives being replaced by a charging regime paid for by the bodies that receive either advice or licences from it.
My noble friend Lord Watson raised an interesting question about whether there were conflicting requirements for advice to Ministers in Clauses 2(1)(a) and 3(2)(a). I am delighted to say that I have an answer. The new authority may not provide advice to the Minister under Clause 3(2)(a) because the Minister would then have to pay for it. Therefore, the advice will be given under Clause 2, not Clause 3. That seems to be a very sensible approach.
My noble friend Lord Grantchester referred to Scotland and Northern Ireland. I will deal in a moment with the Berwick question raised by the noble Lord, Lord Lyell. It is important when looking at Scotland and Northern Ireland, and at sports ground safety in general, to bear in mind that there are three pieces of legislation that cover sports ground safety in the UK. Only one applies specifically to England and Wales and is relevant to the Football Licensing Authority. The first piece of legislation is the Safety of Sports Grounds Act 1975, which came about as a result of the disaster at a Glasgow Rangers game at Ibrox. It provides for the designation of any ground that has accommodation for more than 10,000 spectators, or 5,000 in the case of Premiership or Football League grounds in England and Wales. All designated grounds, including those in Scotland, are required to have a safety certificate issued and enforced by the local authority under the provisions of the Act.
The second Act also came out of a tragedy, in this case the fire at Bradford City’s ground. The Fire Safety and Safety of Places of Sport Act 1987 extended provision to cover regulated stands. A regulated stand is any covered stand at a non-designated ground with accommodation for 500 or more spectators, whether seated or standing. The local authority is responsible for determining which stands at sports grounds in its area are regulated.
The Football Spectators Act established the Football Licensing Authority. It gave it the power to oversee how local authorities discharge their responsibilities under the provisions of the Safety of Sports Grounds Act, and the power to issue licences to admit spectators to sports grounds that are used for designated matches. A designated match is defined, in the Football Spectators (Designation of Football Matches in England and Wales) Order 2000, as
“any association football match which is played at Wembley Stadium, at the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff or at a sports ground in England and Wales which is registered with the Football League or the Football Association Premier League as the home ground of a club which is a member of the Football League or the Football Association Premier League at the time the match is played”.
That does not include Scotland; Scotland's grounds are licensed under different legislation.
The noble Lord, Lord Lyell, raised the question of Berwick, which was covered in what I have just said about the different pieces of legislation. As he rightly points out, Berwick is in England but the team plays in the third division of the Scottish Football League. Therefore, the provisions of Part 1 of the Football Spectators Act 1989 do not cover Berwick Rangers. This Sports Grounds Safety Authority Bill does not seek to alter the FLA's powers under the 1989 Act. However, it will allow the FLA to provide advice and guidance to any sports ground in England, Wales or Scotland, if it is sought. Therefore, the Bill will allow Berwick Rangers to a obtain advice, but the club is not covered by the legislation. I hope that that answers the noble Lord’s question.
Lord Lyell
The noble Lord has been more than gracious and kind. Clause 27(6) of the Football Spectators Act 1989 states:
“This Act, except paragraph 14 of Schedule 2”—
which I think covers Northern Ireland—
“extends to England and Wales only”.
Will the noble Lord please write to me and explain why the provisions that he has been explaining about the Scottish Football League should not apply to Berwick Rangers because its ground is in England? The 1989 Act applies to England and Wales. Will he write to me to explain why he said that it is different because Berwick Rangers plays in the Scottish Football League?
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
I would be very happy to write to the noble Lord. The answer is that Berwick Rangers plays in a competition that is not covered by this legislation—but I will write and give the noble Lord chapter and verse in answer.
I think that I have answered the main points which have been raised. If there is anything that I have missed, I hope that noble Lords will allow me to write to them. I thank the Minister for her gracious and very helpful answer. We await with great interest the deliberations of the Government on where the FLA or the Sports Grounds Safety Authority finally finds a home. I am sure the fact that the Government are committed to the Bill and its continuation will be read with great interest and a great deal of relief. I am grateful to all noble Lords who have spoken for the support that they have given to the Bill, and it is my pleasure to commend the Bill to the House.
London Local Authorities and Transport for London (No. 2) Bill [HL]
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years ago)
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Lord St John of Fawsley
My noble friend the Chairman of Committees is quite right. I was following the bad example of the Leader of the Opposition. One should never talk about oneself. It is a subject that is of interest only to oneself and no one else. I merely wanted to congratulate my noble friend on his persistence in proceeding with the Bill. Here, I make just one point; it is very important that Select Committee reports are speedily implemented. I heard the Select Committee being attacked because of its report. I answered on the millions of pounds spent by the noble Lord, Lord Rodgers of Quarry Bank, on the urban nonsense of turning us all into Dutch flat dwellers in five words that are all that needs to be said on that issue—and I shall then sit down. Those words are: “English people love their gardens”. That is it.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, perhaps I may take the House back to the amendment moved ably by the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding. I thank him for his kind words about my chairmanship of the Select Committee and other noble Lords who took part in those deliberations.
The issue we are discussing in Amendment 1 is whether it is correct to remove Clauses 16 and 17 —formerly Clauses 26 and 27—that deal with the recovery of costs arising from the holding of major sporting events. The Select Committee took a great deal of time to consider this issue. We received a report from the Department for Culture, Media and Sport, but, as the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, said, there was no petition or evidence of any sort from the sporting bodies indicating that they were unhappy with what was proposed.
We took evidence from the Assistant Director for Public Protection and Safety of the London Borough of Hammersmith and Fulham. He stated:
“The large scale of events of the nature that we talked about cause littering over a widespread area, much of it in our residential streets, not just on the frontage of where the individual streets are. It requires additional street cleansing resources, much greater, over and above what we would normally put on the streets to deliver the cleansing that is required by our residents in the community to return the streets to a satisfactory standard after an event has taken place. The resources and costs specifically relate to the number of events, the scale of the event and the scheduling of when these events take place”.
We cross-examined Mr Austin and the witness from the DCMS. We heard from no witness or petitioner from sporting bodies. We had no knowledge that they were unhappy with what was being proposed. The committee, after considering the evidence very carefully, came to the conclusion that the promoters had made their case. In fact, they presented an exemplary case on the Bill as a whole; but, on this particular issue that required us to go against the advice of the DCMS, we concluded that it would be appropriate, in certain circumstances, for local authorities to recover from those organising large sporting and entertainment events additional costs for exceptional traffic management and waste clearance.
I am concerned to hear that the negotiations effectively took place after we had taken the evidence and considered the issue in detail in the committee. I put it to the House that the time for those deliberations was before the Select Committee considered these matters and that, if it was necessary for petitioners to come forward with objections, that was when those objections should be taken. It is not satisfactory, as a rule of procedure, for negotiations to take place subsequently, and for such pressure to be put on the promoters of the Bill that, in order to get it through, they must take out something which at the time was very important to them.
I do not wish to see the Bill delayed any further, but I am concerned at the way in which these amendments have been brought forward, and by the fact that it has been done not on the basis of our being able to cross-examine the people who do not like what is being proposed, but on the basis of a back-stairs deal.
Baroness Kramer
My Lords, I will speak very briefly. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin of Roding, on bringing forward a Bill that has taken so long to get to this stage. As a newcomer to the House, I find it astonishing that the time of this House has to be spent on issues such as the lighting and guarding of builders’ skips. If ever there was an illustration of the need for the Localism Bill, and a more general grant of powers to assemblies and local authorities, this Bill is it.
I will set that aside and make a couple of comments on the provisions. My hope is that as the Bill proceeds to the other House, there will be an element of balance in the way that it is reviewed. For example, returning to the contentious issue of skips, I, like many others, have been in a situation as a resident where I have become frustrated with people who have clearly abused their right to have a skip in the street. On the other hand, I have also done repairs and changes to my home and know that the cost of a skip is an important part of the building budget—so no one would wish that to increase unnecessarily. I hope that that constant balance will remain in the thinking of the House.
I welcome the move to a memorandum of understanding between sports clubs and local authorities. This is a sensible way to proceed on these issues, which are better negotiated between the parties than set out in statute and regulation. It will be less costly and more flexible, with more capacity to adapt to the needs of situations, if we move to a negotiated arrangement rather than always looking for a regulation to sort out the mechanisms. I wish that we could see some of that around pedicabs. Some people regard them as pests and some as positive attractions in the West End of London. I do not understand how one can enforce parking rules against them if the requirement for licensing is not statutory but merely voluntary—presumably that is something that the other House must cope with.
I, too, as I read through the legislation, congratulate everyone on persisting with this through a change of government. I was in the other place when this started. It has taken nearly three years, which is extraordinary. I suggest that local councils and assemblies ought to have the qualifications to deal with these issues, and that this illustrates a matter that we can now pass to those authorities in future legislation.
Lord Jenkin of Roding
My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, and for the important comments that have been made. I was amused by my noble friend Lord St John of Fawsley, who congratulated me on my persistence. I have to say that that is wholly undeserved. I did not move Second Reading. The people who can be congratulated are the promoters, the London boroughs and Transport for London. I shall take his kind words about that and simply comment that at a very early stage in my career, someone said to me, exactly as my noble friend has said, “Patrick, if you want to achieve anything, keep pegging away”. In my life I have tried to follow that nostrum. However, I am grateful to my noble friend.
I turn to my noble friend Lady Kramer. I have a lot of sympathy with her on her suggestion that much of this ought not to come to the Floor of the House in a Private Bill in this form. All I can say to her, in some comfort, is that before 1992 a great many more Private Bills came on to the Floor of the House. However, in that year the Transport and Works Act was passed and all the railway Bills, all the major road Bills and all the rest of it have now disappeared, and what is left are the occasional local authority measures, such as we have here and we had earlier in the previous Parliament from Manchester and others; and, of course, occasionally the universities need to have legislation to amend their statutes. However, I am sure that my noble friend on the Front Bench will have heard her plea for something on more general powers.
I have to say in relation to London—and I have lived in London almost the whole of my working life—that it has conditions and circumstances that are very different from any other city in the country, and I am not surprised that both the City of London and the London local authorities have felt the need from time to time to introduce legislation to deal with the problems which they face. My noble friend also welcomed the negotiated agreement—I will come to the remarks of the noble Lords, Lord Faulkner and Lord Rosser, in a moment. All I can say at this stage is that I was grateful for my noble friend Lady Kramer’s support on that.
As for the deal done with the Football League and the Premier League, I understand the indignation that noble Lords may have felt that this was done outwith the consideration of the Select Committee. As the noble Lord, Lord Faulkner, said, the Select Committee examined the authorities from Hammersmith and Fulham. It heard the evidence and felt that the promoters had made a good case for their clauses, and here we are with an agreement having been reached outside the committee. Whether or not it was a smoke-filled room, I do not know; but, nevertheless, it was reached without the full scrutiny that it would have had if it had gone before the Select Committee. I have some sympathy with that point. I asked a number of questions myself about whether there was any reason why the sporting authorities were not aware of what was in the Bill. It is their job to make sure that they do. They are very wealthy organisations; they spend billions of pounds, as one noble Lord said, on buying footballers and so on. I do not see why they could not have done this before, but the fact remains that they did not. They did not put up a petition. The committee therefore could not hear the petition and reach a conclusion on it.
So what have we got? As I explained in my opening speech, after very prolonged discussions a memorandum of understanding has been reached. In each case the club that falls within the definition, which has a reasonably substantial attendance at its events, has to enter into agreement with the local authority to cover the costs that would have been covered by these two clauses. If someone says to me, “An agreement to agree is not worth the paper that it is written on”, I would have to say that I was brought up in my legal studies entirely to accept that. However, there rests behind this the fact—and the sporting authorities are in no doubt about this at all—that if they do not reach agreements of the sort envisaged in this memorandum of understanding within a clear time limit which is spelt out here, then future legislation will be brought forward to reinstate these clauses.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
Does the noble Lord agree that it would have been courteous to this House if the detail of that memorandum of understanding had been made available to your Lordships before we had this debate today? Can he at least give an assurance that it will be published and will be considered in proper detail when the Bill reaches another place so that it can at last be given proper scrutiny?
Airports: London
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years, 1 month ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord’s first question about the importance of the aviation industry, but we do not want massively to increase the use of aviation, we want to keep it where it is. We must constrain our aviation emissions.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that in all the countries that have constructed high-speed railways, the demand for domestic air transport has declined significantly? Therefore, if the Government are determined to build High Speed 2—as I very much hope they will—they are perfectly entitled to rescale down the projected demand for domestic aviation in the United Kingdom.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, the studies of aviation demand will take the noble Lord’s point into consideration. I understand that domestic aviation in Spain has been drastically reduced because of the construction of a high-speed rail network.
Railways: Heritage Sector
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Faulkner of Worcester
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what contribution the railway heritage sector makes to education, tourism and the regional economy.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, I am grateful for the opportunity to draw attention to the importance of heritage railways in Britain and I thank all noble Lords who have put their names down to speak in this short debate. I declare an unpaid interest as president-elect of the Heritage Railway Association, a volunteer body that brings together the heritage railways in the United Kingdom and Eire. I have also recently been appointed by the Prime Minister to the board of trustees of the National Museum of Science and Industry and shall be serving on the advisory board of the National Railway Museum.
The heritage railway movement covers over 111 working heritage railways and tramways, as well as 60 steam museum sites. Indeed, laid end to end, our heritage railways would stretch for some 500 miles, reaching from King’s Cross to Dalwhinnie in the Highlands of Scotland. There are over 399 stations on these lines—more than on the Underground network—and there is a fleet of around 800 preserved steam locomotives.
Apart from the preserved lines, steam is still alive and well and earning money on the national network, too, with many steam excursion trains being run each year, as well as regular services on the West Highland line, the Cambrian coast line and between York and Scarborough. I pay particular tribute to the work of the specialist team at Network Rail as well as the train operators who co-operate to make this possible. As a number of noble Lords may be aware, in the past few years a brand new A3 steam locomotive called “Tornado” has been built by volunteers to the original LNER design. That is in revenue service as well.
I should also mention the value of the work of the Railway Heritage Committee in designating historic railway artefacts and directing their disposal, when no longer required on the main line, to heritage railways or museums. This approach has been actively supported by Network Rail, the train operating companies and the rolling stock leasing companies. As a result of their working harmoniously together, people can see and appreciate many of these historic pieces of equipment in daily use.
The status and role of the Railway Heritage Committee is about to change as a result of the Government’s decision to include it in the Public Bodies Bill. I shall not anticipate the debate that we are due to have in Committee on that Bill, other than to say that we are very close indeed to agreeing a way forward that would provide for the statutory powers and duties of the committee to be transferred to the Science Museum.
Your Lordships may ask why all this matters. The main answer is that heritage railways give a huge boost to the local economies of the areas that they serve and that we lead Europe and America in the development and presentation of our heritage railways. They are a source of inward tourism as well. To underline the point, the Heritage Railway Association took the lead in establishing a federation of heritage railways across Europe, called FEDECRAIL. Our expertise is keenly sought by other members, particularly in eastern Europe. Those members also look with envy at the statutory powers exercised by the Railway Heritage Committee and wish that they had something similar in their countries.
The value to tourism is enormous. The National Railway Museum attracts almost a million visitors annually, more than any other museum in England outside London. Heritage railways attract more support than almost any other part of the heritage sector, with the exception of the National Trust. While historic ships, aircraft and classic cars have their adherents, no other transport mode attracts anything like this level of interest, with direct benefit to the tourist economy.
This has been confirmed in independent studies undertaken for a number of lines, notably the West Somerset, Severn Valley and Welsh Highland railways. I think that we may hear something about the Welsh Highland Railway from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley. The West Somerset study was undertaken by Manchester Metropolitan University and indicated a value of £1.90 to the local economy from every £1 of fare income to the railway. This means that the value of the railway is at least £4 million to the local economy. I say “at least” because this excludes the considerable spend by volunteers on accommodation, food, fuel, restaurants and so on. These are significant sums of money. Each year, 6.7 million people are carried on heritage railways, whose earnings in 2009 amounted to £81 million. Not only does this point to a value of over £150 million a year to the economy, but it is a figure that is growing year by year as lines are extended.
The other major economic benefit of heritage railways is in employment. Altogether almost 2,000 people work in the sector, some part-time, and often in areas of high unemployment—heritage railways frequently provide high-quality engineering jobs in areas where little alternative skilled work is available.
Then there are the health benefits of providing easy access for walking, as well as the environmental benefits of car-free access to the countryside. While most railways offer a steam-train ride as their main attraction, an increasing number also fulfil a useful transport role. The Swanage Railway, for example, provides a park-and-ride service to reduce congestion on the A351 through the picturesque village of Corfe Castle. The Welsh Highland Railway provides sustainable transport to sensitive areas in the Snowdonia National Park, particularly the village of Beddgelert. Also, what better way is there to visit the Brontë Parsonage Museum at Haworth than by the Keighley and Worth Valley Railway?
We may add to this the benefits to education that are offered by many railways, with their information packs for schools linked to the curriculum, as well as visits to depots and signal boxes. The range of subjects covered by the railway is wide-ranging: history, of course, as well as geography, economics, social history and politics. Indeed, there is almost no area of life in Britain that is not touched by the railway. It was Benjamin Disraeli—or the Earl of Beaconsfield, as perhaps we should call him in your Lordships’ House—who, writing in his novel Sybil in 1845, correctly predicted that,
“the railways will do as much for mankind as the monasteries did”.
None of the achievements of today’s heritage railway movement would be possible without the support of volunteers, of whom more than 17,632 are recorded in the returns made annually to the Office of Rail Regulation, quite apart from those who help in other ways such as fundraising. The range of activities that they undertake is astonishing, from safety-critical work such as driving trains or signalling, to developing specialist skills for locomotive restoration, to straightforward labouring to keep the railways in good shape and safe for passengers.
What better example—and I address this point to the Government particularly—of the big society at work could there be than a heritage railway, with volunteers working alongside paid staff, bringing a boost to the local economy and a range of societal benefits without recourse to the taxpayer? The level of volunteer input means that heritage railways run without subsidy and raise their own capital. A number have also been successful in securing Heritage Lottery Fund grants.
Some people find it hard to understand why there is such a high level of interest in railways and railway heritage among British people—an interest increasingly shared by many overseas visitors. Go to any bookstall and you will see a huge range of magazines and periodicals devoted to this subject. I have seen a total of 16 magazines about railways or model railways in my travels and I understand that these have a combined circulation of around 360,000. When we add in the electronic magazines and the fact that magazines are handed on to friends, we have a regular railway readership of about a million.
My theory is that this interest—I hesitate to call it an obsession—reflects genuine pride in the fact that railways were a British invention and the source of a dominant export industry for over a century. They contributed enormously to the 19th-century Industrial Revolution. They transformed people’s lives, making it possible for them to live in the countryside and travel into towns and cities to work. They were responsible for creating most of Britain’s seaside resorts and enabled working people to go on holiday.
Even today, the influence of Britain’s railways worldwide cannot be overstated. Railways have been regulated and given special powers by government throughout history and their significance in people’s lives, whether or not they are regular users, means that they have a very high profile and raise strong views.
Many railway staff are proud of the industry’s heritage, which plays some part in their motivation. It is perhaps for all these reasons that from 1947 onwards the Government have considered it necessary to legislate to protect Britain’s railway heritage, which has been actively supported by the industry, from the days of the British Transport Commission to today’s rail companies. I hope that when replying to this debate the noble Earl the Minister will acknowledge this uniquely British success story and confirm that the Government will continue to encourage its progress and development.
Sustainable Local Transport
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years, 3 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord makes an interesting and important point. I have started to use a bus service from Alton to Bordon in Hampshire, and it always surprises me how very few people are in the bus, despite it being quite large. However, part of the policy is to allow more suitable vehicles to be used by a variety of schemes.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, I have not had time to read the entire White Paper, but I thank the Minister for including a section at the back on heritage railways, which is a subject close to my heart. I hope it is an indication that we shall have a satisfactory outcome to the debate on the future of the Railway Heritage Committee when we finally return to consideration of the Public Bodies Bill. I have a particular question about sustainable transport. I was going to ask about the school run, to which my noble friend Lord Lea referred. However, does the Minister believe that the Mayor of London’s decision to cut the congestion charge area is a helpful contribution towards sustainable transport in London? Is any consideration being given to road pricing, which is a further way in which more people could be encouraged to use sustainable transport and public transport, rather than get into their cars?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, a heritage railway could bid for a scheme. Although it might not be able to bid for its operating costs, it might be able to bid for certain facilities. The noble Lord will have to look closely at the criteria, given that some things cannot be bid for under the LTSF, because they relate to other types of grant. I very much hope that the noble Lord is successful in finding an alternative location for the legislative powers associated with the Railway Heritage Committee. We will have to see how that unfolds; it is a matter for my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach. I think I am correct in saying that we have no plans at all for road pricing in this Parliament. We have made more detailed statements elsewhere, but it is not on the cards. However, the noble Lord will be aware that it is possible to have a local scheme, such as the mayor’s congestion charge scheme.
Roads: Long and Heavy Vehicles
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the noble Lord raises important issues about enforcement. This question is more about the design, construction and use of our vehicles, but he is right that we need to make sure that we enforce regulations on the operation of goods vehicles very carefully indeed.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, can the Minister confirm that it is the policy of this Government to carry as many goods by rail as possible and to transfer goods from road to rail wherever possible? In that context, will the Government continue to support freight transfer depots and other facilities to enable goods to be put on to the railway and carried long distances by rail rather than by road?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, on the first part of the noble Lord’s question, absolutely. We will do nothing that reduces the amount of freight carried by rail.
Railways: Investment
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years, 4 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, we are very keen to move as much freight as possible on to the railway system. The Thameslink project is not relevant to freight but the High Speed 2 project is, because the west coast main line will run out of capacity and, if we do not build High Speed 2, we will not be able to put more freight on to the west coast main line.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
My Lords, first, I thank the Minister very much for repeating the Statement. I also thank him for the tone of his replies, particularly in his reference to the previous Administration. As he knows, I had a very minor part in the Department for Transport in that Administration and I welcome what he said. I am aware that, when a Statement is repeated from the Commons, we tend to hear rather more strident language than we normally would in this Chamber. I also endorse much of what the noble Lord, Lord Bradshaw, said. He is too modest. When the journey time between London and Cardiff was under two hours, it was when he was running the western region of British Railways. Indeed, that journey time is not that great an aspiration.
I obviously welcome the continued commitment to High Speed 2, to the electrification programme in the north-west and to the Great Western main line as far as Newbury and Oxford. I should declare an unpaid interest as a member of the First Great Western advisory board. I want to press the noble Lord a little bit about what the mechanism will be for reviewing the possibility of going further west than Didcot. Is there a possibility, for example, that electrification will reach Bristol and is it the case that electrification to Cardiff and Swansea is dependent on the Welsh Government making some significant financial contribution?
My worry about the Statement, which I would like the Minister to address, is the question of overcrowding. He will be aware that the figures from the Office of Rail Regulation show that services in London and the south-east are already seriously overcrowded, particularly on First Great Western, where they worsened from 6.5 per cent of passengers in excess of capacity in 2008 to 8.2 per cent in 2009. The consequence of the cascading of electrified stock from the existing Thameslink service to the new electrified services to Newbury and Oxford is that there will be a delay of four years. I am fearful that overcrowding will increase during those four years.
I hope that the point made by my noble friend Lord Snape about the fare increases pricing people off the railway will not come to pass. Like the Minister, I am anxious to see the railway used to the maximum extent. It would be disastrous if we went back to the sort of policy that existed in the 1970s and 1980s, when the response to passenger demand was simply to put up the fares to choke it off. Will the Minister comment on overcrowding as well?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, with regard to the noble Lord’s kind words about the difference between this place and another place, I could not possibly comment. The noble Lord talked about electrification out to Bristol. That is an important point. As I said, it is closely linked to the IEP solution and the development of the business case. He talked about a possible contribution from the Welsh Assembly Government. I think that he is thinking along the correct lines. I will talk to the officials and reflect on his points about overcrowding. The decision regarding fares was difficult, but we have to get some more income to pay for the improvements. However, it is certainly not a mechanism to choke off demand and passengers. We want people to travel by rail; we do not want them to travel by car.
Railways: North-west
Lord Faulkner of Worcester Excerpts(15 years, 6 months ago)
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Earl Attlee
My Lords, the coalition Government are committed to high-speed rail. We hope to have parliamentary approval for the hybrid Bill in 2015 and work will start shortly thereafter.
Lord Faulkner of Worcester
I am sure the Minister will be aware that Network Rail published its northern route utilisation strategy on 8 October, which contains some very encouraging figures for passenger growth in the north of England. For example, as regards Liverpool and Manchester, it estimates that by 2019 growth will exceed 30 per cent and may rise as high as 45 per cent. Will he give an absolute assurance that the Government will honour the comment that he made about electrification despite the horrors that may be in the Chancellor’s statement this week?
Earl Attlee
My Lords, we welcome the work carried out by Network Rail in compiling its route utilisation strategy. It provides a valuable input into the work to be undertaken by the Department for Transport to determine the outputs the railway needs to deliver during 2014-19 and beyond. My comments about electrification remain.