Northern Ireland Protocol Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Committee stage
Monday 7th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

Does the noble Lord accept that in Northern Ireland, when we have a democratic vacuum, the men of violence fill the gap? Is he aware that only last week, because there was a call from Dublin for joint authority in Northern Ireland—government by both Dublin and London—a bomb was planned to be planted in a government building in the Republic of Ireland, which was called off, hours before it was due to explode, only when the Government here announced that there would be no joint authority?

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

The noble Lord is correct. I agree that history tells us that a vacuum will be filled, and it will not be filled by people who are committed to the democratic process. That is well established. There is no legitimacy for joint authority. The manifesto of the Government was clear in 2019 that it was explicitly excluded, although it was interesting that at this weekend’s Sinn Féin conference, its plan B was specifically aimed at some form of jointery. That is why I say we can see where the road is leading us.

I come back to the Minister and ask him to prevail on his colleagues to open the door to the people of Northern Ireland and the elected Members, so that they can participate in the process of negotiations; they will not be sitting in the front row, but they can be in the room, they can be advising Ministers, they can be contributing and they can feed that back to their supporters. It will have a calming effect if they can see that, and if the people who have to implement the thing on the ground are part of the solution. Surely that makes common sense. What is the point of having devolution if the people who have responsibility for delivering parts of this are not even at the table?

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I must say, I take a similar view to the noble Lord, Lord Morrow. For three years, when the Assembly was closed following Sinn Féin’s withdrawal in 2017, the noble Viscount, when he was answering at the Dispatch Box, would say, “Well, because of the Sewel convention, we cannot do this; it is a devolved matter. The Northern Ireland Office cannot do that”. We now seem to have moved. We do not hear the Sewel convention mentioned very much around this place. We seem to have a situation now where, effectively, we are fireproofing bits of legislation against disagreements even though they may be legitimately expressed and exercised by Ministers in Northern Ireland.

The whole mechanism that was agreed in 1998 is not what many of us would ultimately like, but the concept of a mutual veto is there for a purpose. We would not have devolution, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, knows, if people did not feel a sense that they each had a hand on the steering wheel. As the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, mentioned, some of the people with whom we have shared power are not necessarily dinner companions. Once you take away the exercise of a veto, you take away a part of the settlement.

I know that colleagues here did not agree with it in 1998; I am well aware of that, and I understand the rationale for it, but perhaps they now understand our rationale for not agreeing with New Decade, New Approach. As far as I can see, all people would have to do is not agree, and all that those who would like to see a particular measure would have to do is sit on their hands and wait for the Secretary of State to overrule. If we get into that, Sewel is out the window and you start to decay the whole process; we need to take very great care that we do not undermine it. It is an awkward, difficult and complicated system because, if you know that you do not have to agree with the person across from you, the temptation is to wait it out until the Secretary of State intervenes and takes your side.

For a brief period, I held the office at the OFMDFM. I know how complicated this is. The first week I held the office, I and the Deputy First Minister could not agree on the notepaper; as a consequence, the department could not send a letter out for a week until we agreed. We agreed because we had to, and we got a compromise. However, if I had known that I could sit it out and that the Secretary of State would come over and take my side, I would have been under no obligation to agree.

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

He would not have taken your side.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

Or the other side. Whichever—the point is still valid. I am just saying that, if you throw out or undermine the concept that people have to agree, however difficult it is, for one thing, the temptation is that it will spread. That will be my only contribution.

Flybe

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Thursday 5th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords—

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. The term “Ireland” is being used very loosely by the present Conservative Government, which is causing great offence to the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland. This error of decision by the Conservative Government has been increasingly noticeable over the past 18 months. Nationally, it is contrary to the laws of this country, as has been said. The Ireland Act 1949 made it clear that the Government in the southern part of our island are the “Republic of Ireland” —nothing else, not “Ireland”. Why are the present Government pretending that the Government in Dublin are now the “Government of Ireland”, because that is causing offence?

It has been stated that, in international law, they are the Government of the Republic of Ireland, but that is not so in European law. When the United Kingdom decided to accede to the treaty of Rome, the southern part of Ireland agreed to do the same on the same day, just as it is suggested now that, if the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, the southern part of Ireland will also leave the European Union on the same day—that is for the future to decide. At the time of accession, it was the Conservative Prime Minister who was there on behalf of the United Kingdom, and it was Mr Lynch, the then Prime Minister of southern Ireland, who was there on behalf of the Republic of Ireland. As they were signing, Jack Lynch said to Ted Heath, “Do you mind if I sign as the Prime Minister of Ireland?”, and the Conservative Prime Minister of the United Kingdom said, “It’s fine, go ahead”. Since that day, the European Union has referred to the southern part of Ireland as being Ireland and, I am sorry to say, it is Ireland in the context of the European Union and its laws.

However, in the context of the United Kingdom and our laws, it is the “Republic of Ireland”, and the present Government are going contrary to the laws of this nation by referring to it as the “Government of Ireland”.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, as usual, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has an uncanny habit of putting his finger on something that sparks a series of comments.

I am no lawyer or expert in these matters. All I can say is that, when we came to the Belfast agreement in 1998, no agreement would have been reached had the constitution of the Irish Republic remained as it was. We had the issue of Articles 2 and 3, which claimed the territory of Northern Ireland as part of the nation. If I remember correctly, “the island and its territorial seas” was the terminology at the time. Had that remained in place, there would have been no agreement.

A treaty was eventually written to implement the agreement—although it was brought in here as the Northern Ireland Act 1998, there is of course a treaty. The Irish Republic effectively changed its constitution by referendum in 1998 to remove those offending articles. So in terms of our operational day-to-day relationships with the Republic, when we were going to meet Irish Ministers, deal with them and set up bodies with them—which, as the result of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, appointing me to positions, I had the opportunity to do—it was clear to us that the perceived threat/claim no longer existed from a practical position.

However, the problem was demonstrated by the 1985 arrangements, when there were two separate documents, as was pointed out. There was the question of the United Kingdom being given its full title—the mirror image of this question. This country was not getting its proper legal title from the Republic. We are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as anyone who looks at the passport will see. The Irish state was not legally permitted to acknowledge anything other than Great Britain as part of our national territory. That was where the agreement of 1998 made progress, in that it was then accepted that we are an integral part of the United Kingdom. That had been the missing link and something that we had attempted to achieve. Several noble Lords who are here today were part of that negotiation.

So we have made huge progress. I am not qualified to judge what the international implications of this could be, but we know from dealing with this issue that things can creep in over time to dilute the agreements that we have made, because there are always people who will never give up their ultimate objectives. We know that people have been prepared to kill, be killed and do all sorts of other things to achieve an objective which does not meet with the democratic will of all of the people on the island of Ireland, as was expressed by the 1998 referendum.

Your Lordships will recall that John Hume’s argument always was that, if you got the people on the island to vote, you would undermine the arguments of 1918 and the republican movement, because you would actually get people to vote to accept the position. That was, of course, the whole purpose of the agreement. People were forced into accepting that—through gritted teeth, I suspect—and we got the vote.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for raising this matter, because it brings out whether people truly and actually believe what they have signed up to.

Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Tuesday 25th February 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I made the point in Committee that this was an imposed process, without consultation. It offended every point that has been made in this House this afternoon in respect of respecting the settlement and tore up a key part of the settlement that was voted on by a referendum. It was literally a backstairs deal, in the worst tradition of backstairs deals, so let us not give it any credibility that it is some kind of dramatic move forward. It has created a sectarian headcount format for elections even though there is no difference in the powers that can be exercised by the First and Deputy First Minister. They both have the same powers and there is no hierarchy in that regard.

I would say to the Minister that, when she stands up to defend the devolution settlement, she will understand that it rings a bit hollow to some of us when it was the Government who broke that settlement and did so without consulting those who made the settlement—and, it must be said, the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Alderdice, and others who were there at the time to make the deal. There is a Scottish saying—the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, will know this—“Eaten bread is soon forgotten”. Had it not been for people like the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Alderdice, and others, there would be no Assembly for these people to sit in. A lot of people take it very badly that a deal that was done—a referendum that was passed—was swept aside in some kind of backstairs deal without even the courtesy of a phone call to say, “This is the line we are proposing to take”. Some of us learnt about it when we saw the draft of the 2006 St Andrews agreement Act. That is why, when I hear people defending the principle of devolution, it rings a bit hollow for some of us who have been around these things for some time.

I have, however, made my point. I support the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, in his amendment. It is that sort of thing that has been undermining. The potential for a six-week negotiation was the reason that Sinn Fein went to Tony Blair to get the thing changed; it was afraid that, if it put forward a particular candidate, that person would be negotiated out. It wanted certainty that whoever it was would go in. That coincided with the political changes that meant that, on the unionist side at that stage, it was much more convenient not to have to put your name on a ticket with a Member of Sinn Fein to get elected as First and Deputy First Minister respectively. It just happened to suit people at that time.

There is no noble principle involved in the 2006 amendment. It was, by any stretch of the imagination, a dirty deal.

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I do not want to be preaching more caution or to be more alarmist, but I find myself in total agreement with the analysis by the noble Lords, Lord Trimble and Lord Empey, of the situation within the Northern Ireland Assembly and the appointment of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister, and the way in which this could be received by the community at large in Northern Ireland.

With the possible decline of unionist—I use the word with a small “u”—interest in the future of the Northern Ireland Assembly and with the possible lower turnout by unionist voters, under the new system that was introduced in St Andrews we could have a Sinn Fein First Minister in Northern Ireland for the first time. Can your Lordships imagine the reaction of what has been termed earlier in this debate the loyalist working class who had not bothered to vote and then find a former battalion commander of the IRA as their First Minister? I fear it would bring about the total collapse of the Northern Ireland Assembly.

Northern Ireland Act 1998 (Devolution of Policing and Justice Functions) Order 2012

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Wednesday 18th July 2012 Grand Committee

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, the bulk of these proposals are, I understand, tidying up and technical in their nature. Therefore, some pieces of legislation were in process through this place at the time that devolution was implemented, and consequently missed the deadline for inclusion in the legislation at that stage. However, I want to ask the Minister about one area: Clause 9 of the Immigration and Asylum Act 1999.

Before the Minister answers, I make the general point that people have short memories. It is not that long ago that we would have been talking about significant numbers of disturbances in July. This year, most of the cameras were fixed on an area that hardly stretches the distance from where the Deputy Chairman of Committees is sitting to the end of this Room. Consequently, we have to take into account the fact that there has been dramatic change and progress, something which is frequently forgotten.

Parading has been an issue for centuries. This is not new. I think that it has moved on significantly, because there is a greater acceptance of people’s different cultures and the way in which they celebrate their cultures. Of course, the country as a whole is having to come to terms with that. There has been progress.

The issue of the Parades Commission is particular and has come in for a lot of criticism over the past few weeks. This, again, is not a new phenomenon, but if people want to find a solution to these issues, the only way that it will be found is through engagement with all political parties in a meaningful way and wider sections of the community at local level. An attempt was made two years ago to bring forward proposals but, sadly, not all parties were fully involved in that. That can easily be corrected. The particular proposals I would have had great difficulty with. Some of them were not thought through properly. Neither do I believe that it is beyond our collective ability to find a solution. Over time, we found solutions to things that people thought were absolutely impossible.

Yes, it can be resolved but it will require everybody to be engaged at a political level. That is the only way we were ever able to get agreement on the Northern Ireland Act 1998: because everybody was engaged. That could be repeated on the parades issue, and of course other contentious issues like how we treat the past. The whole issue of inquiries is very contentious. There is clearly a hierarchy of victims. We are coming up to the 40th anniversary of Bloody Friday in Belfast, which was a terrible event. There has been no inquiry into that. There are no prosecutions pending or investigations going on into that event. Nine people were killed that day; I remember it very well.

There is still work to be done. This is going to take a generation. People need to stand back, look at where we were and look at where we are. No matter how you measure it, it is a good story to tell. We should take comfort from that. The story coming out of Northern Ireland is predominantly a good news story, and I hope that other parts of the world that are still struggling can perhaps learn a little, and that perhaps we can help a little. I recently met some people from the Middle East and I am sure other noble Lords have done the same.

I specifically want to ask the Minister about Section 9 of the Immigration and Asylum Act as I am a little confused. I am not fully conversant with all sections of the Act but can the Minister explain it a bit more? Will he also tell us whether this legislation is applicable to Scotland? Policing and other functions are devolved to the Scottish Parliament, so is there consistency throughout the United Kingdom in the treatment and implementation of the Immigration and Asylum Act? There is an issue because, unfortunately, Northern Ireland is being used by some people as a back door into the United Kingdom. They are coming into the Irish Republic and are getting into the United Kingdom via Northern Ireland. There have been some cases recently of arrests being made, and I believe some people either have been, or are about to be, before the courts for immigration offences. Can the Minister expand a bit in his final answers on that question?

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I apologise as I have to be brief due to other commitments this afternoon. I want to refer to some of the comments made by the noble Lords, Lord McAvoy, Lord Alderdice and Lord Empey. This order of course has my personal support and, as a former Minister of Home Affairs dealing with the police in the middle of the last century, it is clearly of great interest to me. However, I am not going to talk about the past, I am going to talk about one or two present-day problems in Northern Ireland.

First, I note my entry in the register of interests, as I am going to talk about the media. The noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, mentioned contentious parades, and the noble Lords, Lord Alderdice and Lord Empey, emphasised what a great improvement there has been in Northern Ireland in that context. Incidentally, is it not a sign of the improvement in circumstances in Northern Ireland that 100 members of the Police Service of Northern Ireland incorporating the former Royal Ulster Constabulary, are coming to rescue London from its problems next week? That represents a change in what is happening within the United Kingdom.

One of the things that worried me during the past week, watching the media here in Great Britain, especially Sky and the BBC, was that they concentrated on one parade only, near the Ardoyne. There were hundreds of parades last week in Northern Ireland, all of which were peaceful and orderly—but not one reference was made to that by the media here in Great Britain. Worse still, they misrepresented what did happen. They reported—not simply alleged—that an Orange parade went through the Ardoyne. It did not go through the Ardoyne, it went down the main road past the Ardoyne. To walk through the Ardoyne would have been absolutely criminal, and madness. They do not get the terminology correct and give the impression of provocation. There was no riot immediately after that Orange walk—it was after a parade by supporters of the Real IRA, who went down that road a few hours later. Once again, the media did not make that clear here in London and there were terribly misleading reports.

The second point—bringing us right up to date as we are talking about the Department of Justice in Northern Ireland and the devolution of powers from here to Stormont—regards a report recently in the Tyrone Constitution. It is a paper with which I am personally connected but I had no involvement in the report. It was a local report of an Omagh District Council meeting. Councillors from all parties, Sinn Fein, Ulster Unionists and the DUP, were reported as complaining about departments of government—I think the Department of Justice was mentioned—discriminating against the people outside greater Belfast. This is something now taking place under the terms of consultation. Who are these government departments, including the Department of Justice, consulting with and who are they offering jobs to? They are restricting the advertising of jobs and consultation documents to press within the greater Belfast area and no longer using the media outside Belfast. The result is that there is now a bias in favour of the people living within the greater Belfast area. As one who lives west of the Bann myself, I am getting complaints now from people—and the report in the Tyrone Constitution is typical of what I am hearing— that people in Londonderry, Tyrone and Fermanagh and Counties Down, Armagh and Antrim are no longer getting the same opportunities as people in the greater Belfast area.

To be personal and specific about one newspaper, the Belfast Telegraph, 55% of its readers now are restricted to the greater Belfast area. There are only about 700 copies of the Belfast Telegraph sold in each of the main towns in Northern Ireland, yet the weekly papers there, many of which are owned by companies with no connection to me, sell 10,000-12,000 copies. However, the Department of Justice advertises in the Belfast Telegraph restricting most of the readers to the greater Belfast area, thereby ignoring the people in the other parts of Northern Ireland. I want to place that on the record today because, as we consider devolving more powers to departments in Belfast, they must treat all sections of the community in Northern Ireland fairly and not continue this discrimination against people living outside greater Belfast.

Northern Ireland: Economy

Debate between Lord Empey and Lord Kilclooney

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, I should like to fill the gap—I was not aware of this debate until today, unfortunately. I congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, on having this debate. As the noble Lord, Lord Empey, says, the great news is that we are discussing the economy of Northern Ireland and not the security situation.

I declare an interest as chairman of the largest newspaper group in Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, employing some 300 people, so I know something of the problems of business in both parts of that island. I am delighted to hear the noble Lord, Lord Black, mentioning the Tyrone Courier and certainly he will be well reported in the Tyrone Courier next week because it is the largest weekly newspaper in Northern Ireland. One thing I disagree with him about is that he says the small papers are in trouble. No way—small papers are succeeding. We have the largest circulation in Northern Ireland, with 75,000; the big papers, like the Belfast Telegraph, are down to 50,000. The weekly papers are succeeding; the daily papers are in decline right throughout the United Kingdom—so be careful at the Telegraph!

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said that devolution was successful. I was deputy leader of the Ulster Unionist Party at that time with the noble Lords, Lord Empey and Lord Trimble. We negotiated the Belfast agreement. To say it is successful is going a bit far. I am more inclined to agree with the present Secretary of State for Northern Ireland in his speech in Manchester a few weeks ago when he said it is getting to the time when they have got to make decisions. People in Northern Ireland are losing respect for the Northern Ireland Assembly, and if it collapses then the gap is filled by terrorism yet again. It is important that decisions are made.

Look at the decisions that have been missed. We mentioned golf; the great international football pitch—no decision; the extension of Belfast City Airport—no decision. The replacement of the 11-plus—abolished; now we have three 11-pluses.

[Lord Empey]

Five.

[Lord Kilclooney]

Well, there is one for integrated schools, one for Roman Catholic schools and one for state voluntary schools, which is amazing. On John Lewis’s planning application at Lisburn, there is no decision. There are no decisions being made and sooner or later the public in Northern Ireland will catch on, which will be very bad news there. As far as devolution is concerned, we should place on record our appreciation of the work of Senator George Mitchell, who some of us were with on Monday evening at King's College, and our thanks to the former Prime Minister, the right honourable Tony Blair. He is criticised very much these days in the media but we should place on record our appreciation of the time and effort he gave to bring devolution.

The noble Lord, Lord Lexden, said that GB taxpayers are subsidising Northern Ireland. He forgot to mention places called Scotland and Wales, and other parts of England. They are getting subsidised as well. We are actually quite successful now. We are not the poorest part of the United Kingdom any longer. Wales is—check the figures. Our unemployment in Northern Ireland is now less than the UK average. We have statistics to show that Northern Ireland is progressing and we should not always be on the back foot, trying to say that things are bad there.

I come to the issue of corporation tax. I have always been critical of the Northern Ireland Secretary of State in his campaign to have a lower level of corporation tax in Northern Ireland. If you look at the PwC accountants’ report on what attracts an investment, corporation tax is number 10 in the priorities —not number one but number 10. I know that from my experience in business in both Northern Ireland and the Republic. Other things come into account: national insurance contributions; other forms of taxation; education—there was some criticism of that this evening—and labour costs. The noble Lord, Lord Bew, mentioned Google but he did not happen to mention Dell, which left Limerick in the Republic of Ireland. Why? Was it the 12.5 per cent corporation tax? It stayed in the European Union and went to Poland, with its 19 per cent corporation tax, because that tax is not the main factor in deciding how you develop a business. There are many other issues: read the papers tomorrow and see what Aviva has announced in the Republic of Ireland today.

I am going to be told that my time is up. All I can say in closing is that, as a Unionist, I believe in equality of services, equality of taxation and equality of responsibilities.