Northern Ireland Budget Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 14th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

I welcome the Minister to the Front Bench. I know that he has already answered a Question, but this is the first piece of legislation he has dealt with, and, unfortunately, he does not bring us good news. However, I hope that an opportunity will arise in the future when he is able to bring us something that we genuinely want to hear.

This is a very sad state of affairs. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, for his tour de force of the political landscape, both past and present. He has experience of being involved in the talks and of being a direct rule Minister, so he has seen the issue from both angles. That is very useful expertise to have in your Lordships’ House.

The fact is that in January of this year, the outgoing Finance Minister, Sinn Fein’s Máirtín Ó Muilleoir, instead of bringing in a Budget to the Assembly when it was still there, did a runner. He did not bring the Budget in because he did not want to have to take the tough decisions that would accompany it. This is nothing new. I remember vividly sitting in the Executive when we had to take a difficult decision on the location of a hospital. The Executive agreed that the unit would close and later that evening Sinn Fein representatives were outside the unit waving placards in protest, so this is nothing new. They talk a good game about being in government but will not take difficult decisions. This Budget could easily have been accommodated before the Assembly came to a close in March.

We are talking about the principle of the Bill and there is no alternative to it: that is the reality. However, there is a collective failure here. While Sinn Fein may very well be the villain of the piece in this particular instance, the fact is that it was given opportunities towards the end of last year when the crisis arose over the RHI scheme, which people seem to forget. But in fact, the public hearings have been going now for a week and some of the things that are emerging from them illustrate that the culture in that last Administration was entirely wrong. People had influence and power well above their station and outside the democratic process. It was the worst Administration we have had since 1921. If we want to talk about rights and opportunities for people, what about the rights of the patients—over a quarter of a million of them—waiting on lists? What about the 64,000 people who have been waiting for over a year to see a consultant? These are life and death decisions. Anybody knows that if you need to see a consultant and you have to wait over a year, and if you have a disease, it could reach a critical juncture in that period. Who is speaking for these people? What rights do they have?

I understand perfectly well the issue of culture. We spent two years talking with nationalist politicians about this, and we understand that the identity issue is at the core— we get all that. However, we negotiated into the Belfast agreement a series of protections for cultural identity. We set up an all-Ireland language body, which has a budget and a duty to promote Irish—and there was an Ulster Scots dimension to it as well. That body has been operating consistently since around 1999. We also have an Irish-medium education sector in Northern Ireland. Despite the fact that all the schools are under pressure, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, talks about people being educated separately, we now have four different streams. We now have an Irish-language sector, and some schools are being brought into existence with tiny numbers of pupils. We have broadcasting, which is perfectly reasonable —I have no issue with any of that. However, I point out to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, that unlike Wales, where perhaps 25% of the population speaks Welsh, that is not the case in Northern Ireland. There is no identifiable geographical area where Irish is the spoken tongue. In addition, since 2000, the United Kingdom has signed the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, which is an international treaty that guarantees the language. There are regular inspections every three years—the last one was in 2014—and recommendations are made to the signatories of the treaty to protect and guarantee the rights of Irish-language speakers. Therefore a whole range of protections is already in place, and all the commitments in the Belfast agreement have been met.

We have been arguing about Brexit, with a result of 52% to 48% in the referendum, but in Northern Ireland 71.1% of votes were in support of the Belfast agreement with 28.9% against. People at that time knew what they were voting for. A number of us in the Chamber today were at those talks. At no time did Sinn Fein ever ask us for an Irish language Act. It was not mentioned in the first Executive or mentioned to me in the second Executive, although it subsequently appeared in the statement following the St Andrews agreement. However, it was never mentioned during the talks, and everything we were asked to do on cultural identity was done and implemented in full. So we need to get to the reality of what we are dealing with here.

The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, also mentioned the methodology in the talks. It has been confined effectively to the two parties; they are the largest parties, and that is perfectly understandable. However, the only time we got collective agreement was when everybody was involved, and nearly 40% of the Assembly has been cut out of this. Noble Lords may be shocked to learn that the last time the parties collectively sat round a table was in June. Since then, the other parties—making up nearly 40% of the Assembly—have been completely excluded, apart from meetings with the Secretary of State. Therefore, we need to look very closely at the methodology being employed.

Given where we are today, and having been at this for a long time, I think that going down the steps of Stormont is easy but getting back up them will be very difficult. Strategically, Sinn Fein has a long-term plan. I do not believe that Gerry Adams is committed to Northern Ireland’s existence. In the strand 1 talks, neither of the two larger parties was involved in any way whatever. Although Sinn Fein was technically in the building, it played no part, produced no papers, responded to no papers and made no contribution whatever on the basis that it was ideologically not its business to support an internal settlement, and at that time the DUP was outside the talks shouting “Traitor” at the rest of us. The fact is that nobody who is currently dealing with this situation was involved in the negotiations and that is significant. If Sinn Fein was so worried about an Irish language Act, why did it not ask us? Why did it not put that on the table?

Coming closer to home, when the crisis over the heating scheme arose last December—it was a very important issue—it was perfectly obvious that Sinn Fein was well aware of it before suddenly saying that it was a terrible development. I believe that it knew very well about the scheme because some of its Members were promoting it in their constituencies. I think that the First Minister of Northern Ireland made a mistake in not standing down for a few weeks and getting it over with. If she had done so, I do not think that we would have the crisis that we have today. It could easily have been avoided. It has happened before. She stood in for the previous First Minister twice, and when the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, experienced difficulties on a previous occasion, I stood in for him and after a few months the situation was restored. Therefore, in my personal opinion, the crisis could have been avoided.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, mentioned that we should be talking about next year’s Budget. Normally at this time, the Executive would have special meetings to decide on the spending priorities for 2018-19, and this was raised in an earlier briefing. The Civil Service has at least something to work with because it knew roughly where the Executive were coming from last year. However, that will not be the case when we come to next year’s Budget. What will the Civil Service work on then? I know the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service very well—he is a good chap—but the fact is that he is effectively accountable to nobody. The Secretary of State has no power over him and there is no Assembly.

Therefore, I ask the Minister to take back to his colleagues and his right honourable friend this thought. If we cannot get an agreement now, it will be very easy to bring in direct rule and good governance and so on, but I can tell this House that it will be many a day before we get Stormont going again if we let it go down the drain this time. We should not forget that north/south and east/west bodies are involved and, in the middle of it all, Brexit is creating huge political tensions in Ireland. In my opinion, the Irish Government are perhaps moving towards holding an election before Brexit, and Sinn Fein is very happy to exploit the whole situation. If we are not careful, we will fall into a trap and I urge the Government to look at the options. The noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has mentioned some in the past and the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, has mentioned others. There are loads of options and models, and we have to think outside the box. If we let these institutions slip through our fingers, it will be many a day before we get them back.

Yesterday we had a visit from SAVIA—Survivors and Victims of Institutional Abuse. I am sure that representatives from all our parties in both Houses met its members. These people fought for years to get a public inquiry into their plight. That was eventually granted to them and Sir Anthony Hart reported at the beginning of this year. The contents of that report were truly shocking but the Executive that set up the inquiry were not there to receive it or do anything about its findings. Those people are effectively being abused again. The Ulster Unionist Party will be writing to the Secretary of State and the head of the Northern Ireland Civil Service—I urge all the other parties to do so and believe that they will—to ask that a line be included in the Budget for 2018-19 for at least an interim payment. Some members of the group have died and all are under great strain. This is an example of another group of people whose rights are just ignored. This House and this Parliament have a duty to ensure that they are not put through more trauma.

We cannot keep away from Brexit. I have asked this question many times: where is our voice? It is not being heard. We are affected more than any other part of the country and yet we are out to lunch. The idea floating around from Mr Verhofstadt, and indeed from the Irish Prime Minister at the weekend—that we should remain in the customs union and the single market while the rest of the UK leaves—is a non-runner. Only 15% of our trade is with the Irish Republic, which means that 85% is not, and 90% of the Irish Republic’s goods go either to or via Great Britain. The problem, therefore, is for the Republic in many respects, but it has to be resolved. The Brussels policy of trying to separate this issue from trade is nonsense. We have to look at the big picture. I do not want to see a border; nobody does. But we have to talk sensibly, and creating a border up the Irish Sea instead of where it is currently makes no sense, neither economically nor politically. We will come to further discussions on Brexit, and I suspect that when the Bill comes to the House, one or two colleagues may wish to make a contribution. I am quite sure that this issue will figure largely. To use the coined phrase, the problem of Brexit and the border “will not go away, you know”. We have to deal with it.

I urge the Minister to take what I have said back to his colleagues. We need to think outside the box and look at options and alternative ways of involving the politicians in Belfast. There is no point going on about their salaries if there is not an opportunity to give them something concrete to do and participate in, which is what the vast majority of them want.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 26th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, like for many other Members, it is a matter of deep regret for me that this piece of legislation is before the House. We thought, perhaps naively, that the days when such legislation was required were over, but that is not the case and I have very little confidence that this is necessarily the last piece of legislation that we will see in the next few months.

A number of noble Lords have mentioned the actions of the PSNI at the weekend, but one should not be surprised. Whenever there is a political vacuum, these types of people will fill that vacuum. Nature abhors a vacuum. As a former Minister, the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, knows what I mean. This is what they do. The incident at Holy Cross, however awful, is merely one of a series of similar incidents that perhaps noble Lords have not picked up on—successive attempts to kill members of the security forces or the prison service. This is not a new tactic. It has been ongoing for quite a long time. Not only should we pay tribute to the PSNI and what they have done, but I have to say that the co-operation between the PSNI and the Garda Siochana is at one of the highest levels it has ever been. They are working very closely together and have managed to prevent a very substantial number of attacks. We must never forget that that level of co-operation is the one thing that is preventing further attacks being successful.

Turning to the Bill, as the Minister said in his opening remarks, it is the most minimalist position he can take. Noble Lords may or may not be aware that rates in Northern Ireland are still levied. We never had the council tax, which was perhaps a good thing. But one advantage with the rates is that you can collect them because properties do not tend to move overnight— although I am sure it is possible to find a way of doing that. The rates are divided into two parts: the district councils set a district council rate and Stormont sets a regional rate. They are roughly 50/50, but councils do not collect rates in Northern Ireland. It is done by an agency of the Department of Finance and they are already a month late. I suppose I am not the only person in the Room who will have to declare an interest, because there are those of us who are going to have to pay them.

The delay has already cost a lot of money, as we had to mail every property in Northern Ireland to tell them that their rates were not going to be collected on time, and so forth. So the cash flow that local councils depend upon—bearing in mind that they still raise in excess of 80% of their money out of the rates—will, I suspect, already have been interrupted. Whether that will be dealt with by borrowing or using reserves, it will be balanced out in due course. The point is that this leads to gross inefficiency in budgeting and planning, and has already added costs. If things come out late then people get into trouble or debt and their whole planning goes out of the window, so we need to take care. There is no alternative to what the Government are proposing in the Bill.

Similarly, when we turn to the clause dealing with ministerial appointments, had the Bill not been brought forward I have no doubt that somebody could have judicially reviewed the Secretary of State because, by the far side of the general election, the argument might be that his not calling a general election there within a specified time was not reasonable. We therefore had to proceed with this legislation to ensure that the Secretary of State is protected from that and that another opportunity is created for the formation of an Executive. The noble Lord, Lord Trimble, put forward an alternative idea should that not be possible. Without going into the merits or demerits of that proposal, I ask the Minister to assure the House that, should he find himself in difficulty at the end of June, he and his colleagues, including his right honourable friend in the other place, will look flexibly and creatively at alternatives to direct rule and a collapse of the institutions.

Having been down the Stormont steps a few times myself, I can assure your Lordships that it is much easier to get down them than to get back up them again. We must not forget that we have North-South institutions, some of which I played some part in creating, along with the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, and others. They obviously lack direction because that direction has to come from the Administration in the Republic and the Executive in Northern Ireland, and of course one half of that equation is missing. So all those bodies spending taxpayers’ money are left rudderless and without proper direction. This can be carried forward for quite some time, and those of your Lordships who have been in situations such as ministerial positions will know that you can do this only for so long, but we have to remember that Stormont has been out to lunch since before Christmas and we are now talking about the end of June. Who knows whether that will be the finish of it?

Mention has been made of the budget. There should be a properly fixed budget. I would hope that the departments would be looking at their budgets for 2018-19 and beyond now, but they do not even have a properly agreed budget for this year, other than the fact that a civil servant has taken a decision under the rules. The Secretary of State may issue a statement, but of course that statement has no legal power. It merely raises the issue, but the civil servant is setting the rates—the departmental budgets.

We know that Northern Ireland has the longest waiting lists in the health service and huge problems over education. We fought for the ability to impose our own rate of corporation tax and were ultimately granted the ability to do so, but that has gone down the drain now. It was supposed to come in in April next year, but there is no possibility of that happening now, so there is another lost opportunity.

In the last Stormont Administration, there was a high level of incompetence. We have to be honest about that and about other things. It was not a good Administration. It stayed, it was there, it served that purpose and that was good, but it was not a good Administration.

Mention was made of the United Kingdom leaving the European Union. The total contribution so far from Stormont to Whitehall has been a two-page letter last August, which set out the very obvious, but we have not had any meaningful input. I join other noble Lords in asking the Minister, as I asked his colleague from the Department for Exiting the European Union, how, precisely, Northern Ireland’s views are going to be put forward. We have the most critical and difficult situation developing with the border and we are not even at the races. We are making no input of any submission. Stormont is silent. There has been one letter in the past nine months. That is most unfortunate.

All we are doing is showing contempt for ordinary people who are on long waiting lists. We have hundreds of people on protective notice in the voluntary and community sector because they do not know whether the money is going to be coming in or not.

This brings me back to a point I have made in this Chamber on a number of occasions about parliamentary oversight of the devolved institutions. There is none. That is a major mistake. We have to be continuously watching. Vast amounts of taxpayers’ money is going not only to Northern Ireland but to Scotland and Wales. The heating scandal that was ostensibly the issue that brought the Executive to their knees has been mentioned. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Morrow, that it was a passing vehicle that was used, not the main cause of the Sinn Fein decision, but the scandal is still there, the bills are still to be paid, it should never have happened, and nobody is looking at that. We are again talking about huge sums of money. I totally oppose the concept of devolve and forget. It is a rotten policy. It does not apply only to Northern Ireland. It is a mistake. There must be a level of parliamentary oversight, particularly when the vast amount of money spent by these Administrations is coming from here. I will leave that for another day. I do not expect the Minister to respond on that, but I hope he will clearly indicate that he will keep his options open.

As to Mr Adams and Sinn Fein, whatever people have to say about Martin McGuinness, and there is lots that people could say about him, he was more involved in the institutions in Stormont and more committed to them. I do not think Mr Adams is in the same position. The negotiations after the election are going to be extremely difficult, but I hope that the Minister and his colleagues will be prepared to keep an open mind and look at creative options because to close the place down and abandon the institutions with all the problems that arise is the worst option. I hope it is not necessary to restore direct rule. If it is, we will have to deal with it, but I sincerely hope that we can avoid it, and that may require a lot of creative thinking.

Northern Ireland: Political Developments

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 28th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

The Secretary of State has made it clear that there is a period between now and Easter—when obviously the House of Commons will be in recess. What determines the timescale is the very clear statement that, if we can get agreement, when the House returns legislation can then be introduced, as set out in the Statement.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

The Statement was most regrettable and unfortunate but not surprising. It may be useful for the House to know that at no point during the three-week period of negotiations were all parties invited to the table at the same time—not a single meeting of all the parties took place. As far as agreements are concerned, there are no agreements because nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. There has certainly been some progress, but not enough. Will the Minister keep an open mind when it comes to the steps that may have to be taken at the end of this period, whatever that period is—probably the end of April? The Government must use their imagination to ensure that the institutions survive with the north-south and east-west bodies that are attached to them, which is particularly significant in terms of the implications for Brexit and our relationship with the Irish Republic at this difficult time. Will the Government keep an open mind and look at examples of things that could be opened up to make sure that our number one priority is the maintenance of the institutions?

[Lord Dunlop]

I say to my noble friend that, as the Statement said, should the talks fail in their objectives, the Government will have to consider all options. It would be right to keep an open mind at this point on those.

Scottish Independence Referendum

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

Some very positive investment announcements have been made regarding the Clyde. It is the centre of excellence for surface warship building and that would not happen if Scotland were ripped out of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, is it not the case that nationalists in Northern Ireland have welcomed the decision of the Scottish Government, and are now trying to see whether they could have a pincer movement and have both referenda at the same time? Is it not clear that the Government are going to have to take a much more robust position? Will the Minister confirm that neither a Scottish referendum nor a Northern Ireland border poll will be held?

[Lord Dunlop]

I have made the position on a Scottish referendum absolutely clear. With regard to Northern Ireland, there are clear mechanisms under the Belfast agreement for the holding of a border poll. My right honourable friend the Northern Ireland Secretary has been very clear that the conditions for such a poll do not exist.

Northern Ireland Assembly Election

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank the noble Lord. I say in reply to his question that the Government can have ideas but fundamentally this is about the relationship between the two main governing parties in the Executive. Primarily, they need to sit down round the table, work through the issues and put together a viable proposition for governing in a devolved situation in Northern Ireland. The UK Government will play their part to facilitate that.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware that the Assembly has not agreed a budget for next year, and organisations that rely on government aid are sending out redundancy notices. Can he also clarify one point? I accept that he does not wish to contemplate failure or direct rule. However, there are only 14 days from the time the Assembly meets to the time there is another election call. In those circumstances, will he now take the opportunity clearly and unequivocally to rule out any prospect of any form of joint authority as a long-term solution should a failure occur after this election?

[Lord Dunlop]

I thank my noble friend. As I said when I repeated the Statement last week, the constitutional position of Northern Ireland is clearly set out in the Belfast agreement and the Northern Ireland Act 1998. The UK Government will absolutely meet their commitment and respect fully the constitutional position that is set out in the agreement and in that Act.

Northern Ireland: Political Developments

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 10th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dunlop]

At the risk of repeating myself again, that is the focus of the activity that the Secretary of State will be involved in over the coming hours and days during this seven-day period, to see whether we can find a way through. The noble Lord is absolutely right: we need a functioning Executive to deal with all the very pressing issues that will be of huge importance to Northern Ireland. Yes, there are challenges with Brexit, but there are opportunities as well, and we need to ensure that we exploit those. But be in no doubt that the voice of Northern Ireland will be heard loud and clear and will be at the heart of preparations for these negotiations. The Northern Ireland Office, the Secretary of State and myself have been engaging widely in Northern Ireland to pin down the key issues that need to be at the forefront of our minds as we approach those negotiations. However, as I said, the noble Lord is absolutely right: a fully functioning Executive will be of assistance in that process.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the crisis at Stormont has been precipitated by gross ministerial incompetence, arrogance, greed and opportunism. I regret to say that the seeds of this debacle were sown in 2006, when the Government unilaterally changed the terms of the Belfast agreement on the appointment of the First and Deputy First Ministers. Does the Minister agree that, had the Government allowed proper parliamentary scrutiny of devolution instead of this wretched policy of “devolve and forget”, which we call the Sewel convention, we might not be facing the potential return of direct rule with all the risks that the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, has outlined—on which I entirely identify with and support him?

[Lord Dunlop]

I note what the noble Lord says about the change in the method of selecting the First and Deputy First Ministers, and I acknowledge his long-standing position on this. However, as the Secretary of State made clear in the other place, the focus now must be on exploring whether there is any basis for resolving the current issues. There is huge support in Northern Ireland for devolution. The point about devolution—a point I have made in this House before—is that when powers are devolved to institutions, we need to support those institutions in discharging their responsibilities. The renewable heat incentive scheme is a fully devolved matter and we believe that the solution to that—with of course the support of the Secretary of State and the Government—needs to come from within the Northern Ireland institutions.

Representation of the People (Electronic Communications and Amendment) (Northern Ireland) Regulations 2016

Lord Empey Excerpts

Monday 12th December 2016 Grand Committee

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Dunlop) (Con)]

My Lords, I beg to move that the draft regulations laid before the House on 2 November 2016 now be considered. This statutory instrument amends the existing legislative framework for elections in Northern Ireland to allow for people there to register online. The regulations make a number of other amendments to existing electoral law, but I will focus here on the most substantive provisions.

Increasingly, we are all used to banking, shopping and accessing a range of public services online. In Great Britain, people have been able to use the online Register to Vote system since 2014. The online digital service offers a quick and easy alternative to the more traditional option of paper application forms. It is clearly right that people in Northern Ireland should be offered that same choice, and I make it clear at the outset that it is a choice. There is no suggestion that the move to introduce online registration will replace the existing paper registration system. Applying to register on a paper application form will remain an option for any individual who does not want to register online. But for those individuals in Northern Ireland who want to take advantage of this new service, the draft regulations allow the extension of the already successful digital service operating in Great Britain to cover Northern Ireland.

We know that the online Register to Vote service has been very successful in the rest of the UK. Figures suggest that around 90% of those registering in Great Britain this year outside the canvass period did so using the online service. Customer satisfaction with the service consistently measures more than 90%. I am sure that we all want to see increased political participation in politics among young people, including in Northern Ireland. I am pleased to report that since the introduction of online registration in Great Britain, a record 4.2 million applications to register have been made by people aged 16 to 24.

The application pages developed for Northern Ireland have been user-tested throughout their development to ensure that the system provides an excellent standard of service. Under these draft provisions, a Northern Ireland online application will work in essentially the same way as for the rest of the UK. It will require the same personal data as for the existing paper form. I have had a demonstration of the system and can confirm that the service is excellent. Northern Ireland Members from the other place have also been offered a demonstration of the system; I am happy to extend that offer to noble Lords.

The system is quick and easy, taking no more than five minutes to complete. It will not allow anyone inadvertently to miss out information, which might delay their application at a later stage. This will mean more complete applications, less follow-up correspondence from the Electoral Office for Northern Ireland and more people being placed faster on the register. In designing this system, our primary concern has been to ensure that we retain the confidence of users that the electoral system remains secure. In Northern Ireland, the usual requirement for those applying to register is to provide a handwritten signature. In an online application through the digital service, the act of submitting the application form along with the declaration at the end of the application will constitute an electronic signature.

Your Lordships will also be aware that there are strict rules on absent voting in Northern Ireland, which will continue to be enforced. Every successful digital registrant in Northern Ireland will be issued with a digital registration number, which will fulfil the same function as a signature for digital registrants if they wish to apply for a postal or proxy vote. It will ensure that postal vote applications can continue to be scrutinised appropriately. The number will be unique to the individual, last for their lifetime and remain unaltered no matter how many times the individual moves or changes their name. We have consulted the Electoral Commission. It agrees that the provision of an identifier to replace the signature check in the postal vote process is necessary. It raised the possibility of some individuals losing their numbers. To address this possibility, we have put in place a system allowing for numbers to be reissued quickly where they have been lost.

Officials will work closely with the chief electoral officer to monitor the successful operation of the digital registration number procedures. We have also changed the wording of the declaration at the end of the registration form for all applicants, both digital and paper. Applicants will be required to declare that they are the person named in the application and that the information they have provided is true.

There will also be special provision for people with a disability. The declaration makes it clear that the application and declaration can be submitted on behalf of someone unable due to disability to do so themselves, as long as it is done in their presence. The draft regulations also make comprehensive provisions for the exchange of data. This exchange is necessary to facilitate digital registration and allow applications to be verified against the DWP database. I assure your Lordships that these data-sharing provisions are necessary and include all the appropriate safeguards. The provisions have been modelled on the existing provisions in place for Great Britain and have been scrutinised and approved by the Information Commissioner for Northern Ireland.

These regulations do not yet cover the digital registration of overseas electors wishing to register in Northern Ireland. The Government are committed to implementing votes for life, so it makes sense to await the implementation of this wider electoral provision for overseas electors before designing the online system for overseas electors registering in Northern Ireland.

In addition to digital registration provisions, the draft regulations make a number of other more minor or technical amendments. These make improvements and ensure, where appropriate, consistency of administrative approach with the rest of the UK. For example, the regulations bring Northern Ireland into line with the data protections in place in Great Britain for individuals on the list of applicants to be placed on the register. Those wishing to inspect an entry on the list will still be able to see the name, address and nationality of the applicant, but not the other personal details contained in the application. The regulations also provide for removal of overseas attestation to bring Northern Ireland requirements into line with the rest of the UK. Further, they remove the outdated requirement for Crown servants and British Council employees to have their forms submitted by their employer.

The implementation of digital registration is fully supported and welcomed by the Electoral Commission and the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland, and the regulations have been approved by the Information Commissioner’s Office for Northern Ireland. If your Lordships approve these regulations, the precise timing of the introduction of digital registration will be determined by the successful testing of the electoral office computer system. I hope that all the necessary checks will be passed by the end of February. The regulations will be signed when the digital platform is ready to be launched and will come into force the following day.

I hope your Lordships will agree that the introduction of digital electoral registration is a major step towards modernising the delivery of elections in Northern Ireland. It is an excellent service that will offer people in Northern Ireland the level of choice and service that we all expect in these modern times. We hope that this change will lead to an increase in political participation among a range of groups, particularly young people. I commend the regulations to the Committee.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing the regulations and I for one hope to take up the offer of seeing a demonstration, which I understand will take place on Wednesday this week. First, I do not see this as a case of Northern Ireland catching up with the rest of the UK because our electoral registration participation rates are already very good. In fact, in respect of young people they are better than those in the rest of Great Britain. The last figures I saw showed that around 83% of young people were registered, but there is a reason for that.

There is a fundamental conflict in the Government’s position on this. If you were arguing that online registration is an attempt to encourage young people to register, which it might in some cases, another part of the Government’s policy with regard to electoral office matters is going in the opposite direction; namely, the closure of a number of electoral offices in Northern Ireland. That issue is in conflict with the Government’s stated policies. The local offices have a policy of direct engagement with schools, and that is why they have been able to raise the level of participation by young people. Simply making online registration available is no use unless people are motivated to participate. We already have a system that is working well and achieving very acceptable results.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Act 2016 (Independent Reporting Commission) Regulations 2016

Lord Empey Excerpts

Monday 7th November 2016 Lords Chamber

At this time it would be remiss not to take account of the importance of cross-border police co-operation in tackling criminal activity on both sides of the border. In this regard I welcome the developments we have seen since the fresh start agreement was signed, including the establishment of the Joint Agency Task Force and the updated cross-border policing strategy launched in September. Can the Minister assure the House that this co-operation will not be compromised during the Government’s negotiations to leave the European Union? We on these Benches support the regulations before us this evening. I look forward to participating in many more debates on Northern Ireland in the coming months.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, in welcoming the establishment of this body, I further emphasise that I am disappointed that it will have no sanctioning powers. In other words, it can deliberate and report but, unlike its predecessor, it cannot impose any sanctions on persons it deems to have participated in paramilitary activity.

It is 22 years since the ceasefires and 18 years since the Belfast agreement. One would have thought that, with the passage of that length of time, one could have foreseen a gradual diminution in paramilitary activity. However, while the terrorism is not on the scale it once was, it has reached a sort of plateau. As the Minister said in his opening remarks, there have been four deaths already this year. But that is not the only expression of paramilitary activity. If we take figures from the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, in the past 10 years 6,261 people have claimed they were intimidated out of their homes by paramilitaries and the housing executive accepted 3,720 of those claims. In the year up to April, 588 such claims were made and 414 were accepted. By any standards, paramilitaries continue on their path. We also had the tragic death of a teenager—last week, I believe—who was driven to his death by paramilitaries for non-payment of a fine they had imposed upon him. The idea that we are moving at pace towards the end of paramilitary activity is very misleading.

We welcome the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, to the Front Bench. If she does not have a full working knowledge of Northern Ireland affairs at the moment, she does not know what wonder awaits her as we move forward. However, she made reference to the Government’s promise—as the Minister reiterated—of £25 million over five years to help with the strategy to tackle paramilitary activity. Unfortunately, the Executive in Stormont have not yet been able to finalise these proposals. Consequently, and understandably, the Government have had no alternative but to withhold the funds because there is no strategy there, as there should be. Yet there is a continuing flow of funds from government to organisations populated by persons who have had paramilitary connections. That particular flow of funds is able to continue whereas the strategy to deal with this is paralysed by inaction. That is a very negative development.

We know this is deep-seated and there are a lot of social and economic reasons for it, as the noble Baroness referred to. We know that young people in areas with significant deprivation and a lack of education and job opportunities are easy prey to the elements around. It is still in some areas a badge of honour to be associated with some of these organisations. However, remember that it is only just over a year since the activities of some of these organisations almost brought down the Executive. That precipitated urgent talks but just over a year ago it almost brought down Stormont. The idea that this is resolved is misleading.

We seem to be still in the foothills. If after 18 years we cannot even agree a strategy for dealing with paramilitaries, what are we doing? What is the delay? Why is this not happening when there is a funding stream clearly available and promised? I would have thought anybody would have taken the opportunity to get on with that and it is regrettable that it has not happened. The longer we leave it, the more of these young people will be sucked into these organisations. They have their lives ruined and miss opportunities. With that level of funding available, it is outrageous that we are not able to get out there and spend it to avoid young people in particular getting sucked into this.

Of course, hardcore paramilitaries continue to try to kill members of the Prison Service and of the police—the PSNI—in particular. That is continuing. Thank God they have been intercepted in many cases. I must pay tribute not only to the PSNI but also to the Garda for the work and co-operation that exists there. They have prosecuted a number of cases successfully. But there is still a large number of people involved, bearing in mind that they are a generation past the agreement and when there was open paramilitary fighting with the Army. Still these organisations exist. Still weapons are being found. Still weapons are being acquired. It is very disappointing that it has not been possible to get behind a strategy to deal with this and spend the money already allocated. I do not understand why we have this continual paralysis.

I regret that there are no powers of sanction for this body. Nevertheless, perhaps it can shine a light on what is going on in its reports. If I remember correctly—noble Lords will correct me if I am wrong—it can produce a special report if requested. However, with the figures released on people who are still being intimidated out of their homes, it is time that this paralysis was ended. I hope the Minister will use all his influence with the Northern Ireland Executive to ensure that he is in a position to make those funds available, release them and get something happening on the ground that will keep young people away from these organisations.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I support the implementation of this statutory instrument, and I note with pleasure the bipartisan support it received from the opposition Benches. I absolutely accept the problem that the noble Lord, Lord Empey, noted, that the Independent Reporting Commission will not have the power to deliver its own sanctions. None the less, it sends out a powerful signal that government, and even the Northern Ireland Executive, are not prepared any longer to sweep paramilitary crime under the carpet. That is of value in its own respect. For the rest, we must hope that the decision to devolve policing and justice will pay dividends in the next couple of years or so.

I will make a point about the £3 million that has been made available. This is not a criticism of what has been done; we have no choice but to go down this road. This body is part of the means by which Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland politicians extracted themselves from a near-fatal crisis of the Executive. A promise has been made, and it is quite right that Her Majesty’s Government try to deliver on their side of the promise. However, is it not unusual that Her Majesty’s Government are paying for all of it but have only one nominee, whereas the Assembly has two and the Irish Government have one, although the £3 million that is keeping the thing going is from Her Majesty’s Government? In this case, it is right; it is an inevitable if difficult decision, although a defensible one. However, in the future we need to be careful about arrangements in which Her Majesty’s Government pay the piper but do not call the tune, particularly with respect to arrangements that might be made about legacy issues in the future. It is slightly worrying from the point of view of the future, although it is the right thing to do at this time.

I will make another point about a positive part of the statutory instrument, which is the decision to have more transparency about the way the Executive display their finances and in particular the role played by the United Kingdom Exchequer. This is a positive development. One of the things those of us who live in Northern Ireland understand, in a way that perhaps those who do not live there do not, is that the discussion of the local finances goes on in an extremely airy-fairy world, without respect to the importance of the subvention from the UK Exchequer, which is vital to the survival of the Northern Irish economy. I totally support that—that is what the United Kingdom means, and the fact that Northern Ireland has been in distress and in difficult circumstances and has been helped by the United Kingdom is a tribute to the concept of the union and the United Kingdom. I totally support it, but the people of Northern Ireland have a responsibility to be realistic about these matters and to take their own role in this seriously. The decision that now the Executive must make clear what the financial relationships are is a positive one. The hero of the Troubles has always been the unknown British taxpayer, and it is right that he be respected at this moment. It is now 18 years since the Good Friday agreement, and the time has come and it is right for us to have this transparency about public funding.

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[Lord Empey]

My Lords, just before the noble Lord sits down, I am bit unclear about one thing—if he is not in a position to answer now, perhaps he could write to me. The £5 million a year has been promised, but the Government clearly have some issues over the lack of clarity on the part of the Northern Ireland Executive’s strategy. Could he tell us whether there is any timetable for resolving that issue? Could he even share with us—if not now, perhaps by writing and putting the letter in the Library—what it is that is not sufficiently developed? We have been at this game for well over 20 years now, and it is very disturbing that there is money there while there are huge areas of deprivation and paramilitarism is still active. It would be most unfortunate if we cannot get that already-provided resource out there, making some positive contribution. If the Minister could help us in some way on that, I would be most grateful.

[Lord Dunlop]

As my noble friend will know, the Secretary of State has to persuade the Treasury to release funds. The House will know that the Treasury requires sight of detailed and measurable plans, and that is what is at issue here. I cannot give him a precise timetable tonight, but if there is further information that can be usefully shared, I am happy to write to him on that. The key point is that the Government are seized of the need to make urgent progress on putting in place an effective, detailed action plan that will start to tackle this scourge on society in Northern Ireland.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Thursday 21st April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I take this opportunity to support the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, who touched on a number of very significant points. Noble Lords need to understand that this commission was appointed as a mechanism following the very severe events that took place last summer, which nearly brought the whole show down. A number of people have found that the appointment of this body gives them some reassurance that they can remain in the Assembly and that this commission would at least have the opportunity to shine a light on what was going on and to tackle one of the most significant outstanding, unresolved issues: those paramilitary organisations that were deemed to be active and have influence and control over one of the major parties and the totality of paramilitary involvement, which goes right across the community at all sorts of levels—in politics, in security, in crime and in other significant social circumstances where influence is being brought to bear on the younger generation to corrupt their views.

This is a very broad canvas. However, I want to talk about the specific security aspect of it, which is extremely important. The two shootings last year led up to the crisis and to a statement by the chief constable about the continuing operation of the Provisional IRA. That really destabilised the institutions to a significant extent. For many of us, the appointment of this body was an attempt to provide reassurance by shining an independent light on what was actually going on. I was one of those who felt that the removal of the IICD was premature. Perhaps I was wrong, but I felt that that body kept, as the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, said, relentless pressure on paramilitaries. It also provided a degree of reassurance and kept momentum in the process going. I am not sure that an annual report is sufficient to deal with that.

I digress for a moment to the Explanatory Notes that were prepared by the Government for this Bill. I mention them because they are significant and relevant to this amendment. I refer to paragraph 2, on the policy background, which says that:

“The Fresh Start Agreement was reached on 17 November 2015 after 10 weeks of cross party talks between the UK Government, the five largest parties of the Northern Ireland Assembly and the Government of Ireland”.

The language in that would give the uninitiated reader reason to believe that this document and the Bill that has arisen were the product of that negotiation and agreed by the participants. That is not true. Yes, for the first eight out of 10 weeks of the discussions all the parties were involved. Sometimes they turned up and sometimes they did not, but everybody at least had the opportunity to turn up and most did. However, in the last fortnight, the discussions were taken out of Stormont House and moved to Stormont Castle, where the two largest parties, together with the Governments, produced the document, which some of the parties were then summoned to see on 17 November. My own party, the Ulster Unionist Party, the Alliance Party, and the Social Democratic and Labour Party were provided with this document, and we simply said that we would take it away and look at it. But this is not the product of an all-party agreement; let us be very clear about that.

The long-term problem that we have with this sort of legislation, and indeed the Scottish legislation, is that when it comes to the parliamentary side of it, government feels inhibited in paying any attention to Parliament, because it deals with these documents as if they were treaties—I made this point on the Scotland Bill. In my opinion, Parliament should be able to scrutinise and amend any of these things should it see fit. Governments, when they are making commitments, should make it very clear that they are subject to parliamentary scrutiny—they should not simply railroad things through whether they are right or wrong.

I believe that this amendment has merit. I would also like to comment on the other amendment in the group, in my name, which concerns appointments to the commission itself. Part of the arrangement is that the British Government and the Irish Government will appoint a nominee, and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister will appoint two nominees between them. There is a perfectly logical argument for that. You could say that for the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of the day, whoever they may be, it is a perfectly sensible arrangement. On the other hand, it means that you have people who are appointed basically on political grounds. Both of them will have a veto over who is appointed. One of them might be from Sinn Fein. We have to understand that the current Deputy First Minister, while he has changed much over the years—which I welcome—is nevertheless a self-confessed member of a paramilitary organisation. I personally believe that he was chief of staff of the IRA; he will have conducted paramilitary campaigns against and ordered the assassination of individuals and destruction of property and assets. Is it correct that the cat is put in charge of the cream?

So, there are two logical arguments for the amendment. However, I wanted to put it down as a probing amendment to assess whether there is an alternative mechanism. Some people say that the policing board is one. Of course, it is not a totally independent body either, but at least there are independent people on it, so it is not a political deal. But I know from experience that whoever is appointed, if the current arrangements are applied, it will be a political deal. That is fine, but I am just saying that the people who could be involved in that appointment are not necessarily independent. One of them at least, should he remain Deputy First Minister, is a self-confessed member of a paramilitary organisation. I would much prefer a more independent appointment process where people are not put in simply as stooges but would be genuinely free and independent and able to make a judgment without being somebody’s clone. That risk exists with the present arrangements.

I want to make it clear to your Lordships that this document is not universally agreed, although there are bits in it that I think are perfectly fine and reasonable and have no objection to. I do not understand why language is used which does not tell the reader what the situation in practice was.

There is great merit in the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. It could also help to avoid pressures on the new Executive, when they come in, should other events occur that we cannot anticipate. What if we have to wait maybe 10 or 11 months? Let us take the situation of last summer, when those shootings occurred. If somebody said, “Well, the commission reported in June, so there’ll not be anything till next June”, that would be absolutely useless. This commission has the power to give reassurance to people that the paramilitary issue is being dealt with and will be reported on. It is not unreasonable to ask that the reporting mechanism be brought forward to six months, which could be an important escape valve for events that may occur which could destabilise the institutions once again.

[Lord Eames (CB)]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, in his amendment, but I do so from a point of view which has yet to be mentioned in this debate. On retirement, I have maintained the work that I initiated in those years with those former paramilitary members who were seeking a better way of life and a more just way of expressing their opinions. I have continued that work and am utterly convinced that one of the most extreme pressure points in ensuring that that process continues for the greatest number is contained in the words of the amendment, and for this reason. We may suspect, in the relatively calm waters of this Chamber and the Palace of Westminster, that some of the things that are said are not listened to by the likes of those who have former or present contact with paramilitary organisations, but let me assure noble Lords that that is untrue. Those words are read, thought about and used in deciding the meaning of this. Only recently, a group who I have been working with for some time said, “When will it be recognised that we are trying? We are trying to get out of this cauldron of paramilitary activity. When will society recognise that some of us do want out of it?”.

If the commission reports only at the sorts of intervals mentioned in the Bill, this important pressure will cease to have effect unless we accept what is sought in the amendment of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. As events move—and they can move very quickly in the world of the paramilitary—if this commission does not have the opportunity to tell civil society, “This is what’s happening”, and to tell it in a relatively speedy way after evidence has been uncovered, a wonderful opportunity will be lost. I beg the Government to think just as carefully about the meaning behind the proposal in this amendment as they do about what the amendment says. I beg the House to take this very seriously.

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[Lord Kilclooney]

My Lords, briefly, I support the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden. The term “Ireland” is being used very loosely by the present Conservative Government, which is causing great offence to the vast majority of people in Northern Ireland. This error of decision by the Conservative Government has been increasingly noticeable over the past 18 months. Nationally, it is contrary to the laws of this country, as has been said. The Ireland Act 1949 made it clear that the Government in the southern part of our island are the “Republic of Ireland” —nothing else, not “Ireland”. Why are the present Government pretending that the Government in Dublin are now the “Government of Ireland”, because that is causing offence?

It has been stated that, in international law, they are the Government of the Republic of Ireland, but that is not so in European law. When the United Kingdom decided to accede to the treaty of Rome, the southern part of Ireland agreed to do the same on the same day, just as it is suggested now that, if the United Kingdom leaves the European Union, the southern part of Ireland will also leave the European Union on the same day—that is for the future to decide. At the time of accession, it was the Conservative Prime Minister who was there on behalf of the United Kingdom, and it was Mr Lynch, the then Prime Minister of southern Ireland, who was there on behalf of the Republic of Ireland. As they were signing, Jack Lynch said to Ted Heath, “Do you mind if I sign as the Prime Minister of Ireland?”, and the Conservative Prime Minister of the United Kingdom said, “It’s fine, go ahead”. Since that day, the European Union has referred to the southern part of Ireland as being Ireland and, I am sorry to say, it is Ireland in the context of the European Union and its laws.

However, in the context of the United Kingdom and our laws, it is the “Republic of Ireland”, and the present Government are going contrary to the laws of this nation by referring to it as the “Government of Ireland”.

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, as usual, the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has an uncanny habit of putting his finger on something that sparks a series of comments.

I am no lawyer or expert in these matters. All I can say is that, when we came to the Belfast agreement in 1998, no agreement would have been reached had the constitution of the Irish Republic remained as it was. We had the issue of Articles 2 and 3, which claimed the territory of Northern Ireland as part of the nation. If I remember correctly, “the island and its territorial seas” was the terminology at the time. Had that remained in place, there would have been no agreement.

A treaty was eventually written to implement the agreement—although it was brought in here as the Northern Ireland Act 1998, there is of course a treaty. The Irish Republic effectively changed its constitution by referendum in 1998 to remove those offending articles. So in terms of our operational day-to-day relationships with the Republic, when we were going to meet Irish Ministers, deal with them and set up bodies with them—which, as the result of the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, appointing me to positions, I had the opportunity to do—it was clear to us that the perceived threat/claim no longer existed from a practical position.

However, the problem was demonstrated by the 1985 arrangements, when there were two separate documents, as was pointed out. There was the question of the United Kingdom being given its full title—the mirror image of this question. This country was not getting its proper legal title from the Republic. We are the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, as anyone who looks at the passport will see. The Irish state was not legally permitted to acknowledge anything other than Great Britain as part of our national territory. That was where the agreement of 1998 made progress, in that it was then accepted that we are an integral part of the United Kingdom. That had been the missing link and something that we had attempted to achieve. Several noble Lords who are here today were part of that negotiation.

So we have made huge progress. I am not qualified to judge what the international implications of this could be, but we know from dealing with this issue that things can creep in over time to dilute the agreements that we have made, because there are always people who will never give up their ultimate objectives. We know that people have been prepared to kill, be killed and do all sorts of other things to achieve an objective which does not meet with the democratic will of all of the people on the island of Ireland, as was expressed by the 1998 referendum.

Your Lordships will recall that John Hume’s argument always was that, if you got the people on the island to vote, you would undermine the arguments of 1918 and the republican movement, because you would actually get people to vote to accept the position. That was, of course, the whole purpose of the agreement. People were forced into accepting that—through gritted teeth, I suspect—and we got the vote.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for raising this matter, because it brings out whether people truly and actually believe what they have signed up to.

[Lord Trimble]

My Lords, everything that has been said by the previous three noble Lords who have spoken is significant, and how people feel about things and the language that is used is also significant, but in assessing the legal situation we must bear in mind that Ireland—the Republic of Ireland, the Irish Free State, whatever you want to call it—operates under a formal, written constitution. Here, I am speaking from memory, not having consulted documents to refresh my memory and ensure that it is accurate, which is a dangerous thing to do, but the 1937 constitution, in giving a name to the state, said that the name of the state was “Éire, which in English means Ireland”. That is a nice one to reflect on. That constitution was still in force in 1949, when the state was declared to be a republic, but that was legislation. No amendment was made to the constitution, so in Irish constitutional law, the name remained unchanged.

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Moved by

[Lord Empey]

3: After Clause 5, insert the following new Clause—
“Victims and survivors
In Article 3 of the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006, at the end insert—“(3) In this Order references to “victim and survivor” shall not include an individual appearing to the Commission to be any of the following—(a) someone who is or has been physically or psychologically injured as a result of or in consequence of their undertaking a criminal act in a conflict-related incident;(b) someone who was in whole or in part responsible for an unlawful conflict-related incident if that person took part in all or any of the planning or execution of that unlawful act.””

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, I will take this opportunity first to remind noble Lords of our contributions at Second Reading. The co-called Stormont House agreement is a two-stage rocket. The first stage took place in 2014. Of course, even in 2015 a large part of the discussions rested on legacy issues and not on the issues contained in the Bill. So the Bill is largely devoid of the matters that were discussed for prolonged periods during both sets of negotiations.

I will take this opportunity to thank the Minister for holding a meeting. Sadly, it was in Committee Room 10A, which was far too small and stuffy for the number of people who showed up, but I thank him for holding it. I do not know whether he believes that it served him any purpose—a number of noble Lords are here this afternoon who were there last week to express their views—nevertheless, it gave an opportunity to ventilate on the legacy issues, which the Minister had indicated he hoped to bring before your Lordships at a future date, in a separate piece of legislation. We also have people in this House today, such as the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, who have a distinguished history of work in this very sensitive area.

As someone who, fortunately, came out of our Troubles without a member of my family or a close acquaintance being directly affected, in the sense of being either killed or injured as a result, I am in a minority, but I know there are still a lot of people who are deeply unhappy that the issues they feel are so significant to them are not being addressed. Consequently, this amendment seeks to amend the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 to make it clear that, if a perpetrator of an act of violence should subsequently try to claim compensation, that they would no longer be eligible. The situation is fairly clear in English law. When a person is responsible for something that is their own doing and that thing is unlawful, it seems perverse that they should then have full access and be treated as being in exactly the same position as the person against whom an act of violence was committed. Effectively, that is what the amendment seeks to deal with.

There is no common view or belief on what is a victim. For a variety of reasons, it has not been possible to get an agreed definition, despite the fact that many people have tried. We understand the rationale for this—that those who were members of paramilitary organisations feel that they have been fighting in their terms a just war, and therefore they see themselves in the same light as we would see veterans of our Armed Forces, for instance. Strange as that may seem to many people, it is nevertheless the fact, and we have to be aware of that. Similarly, the loyalists and republicans felt that they were involved in just wars. But of course, that is not how the law of this country sees it, and it is not unreasonable to see a distinction between someone involved in an act of terrorism—an unlawful act—and a person who was a victim of that particular unlawful act, and treat them differently. That is what this addition to the Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 seeks to achieve. I beg to move.

[Lord Rogan]

My Lords, efforts are increasingly being made by Sinn Fein/IRA to rewrite the history of the Troubles. The forces of the Crown are being portrayed as the bad boys and the bad side and, indeed, have been shown as the perpetrators of most of the violence. The terrorists are being seen as not really to blame—indeed, if it had not been for the British Government’s misrule, they would all have been model, peace-loving citizens. They are attempting to airbrush terrorists and terrorist atrocities out of history, and they portray themselves as victims, putting themselves in the same category as those thousands of innocent victims. This revisionism must not be allowed to happen. There is absolutely no way that someone injured or killed when carrying out an unlawful terrorist incident can be equated with an innocent civilian or member of the Crown forces performing their duties of protecting us.

In giving evidence to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee yesterday, the victims commissioner stated that some 200,000 persons in Northern Ireland, 12% of the population, are suffering from mental health problems as a result of the Troubles. A disproportionate number of these victims—and these people are as much victims as those with physical injuries—live in areas which were, and in some cases still are, controlled by paramilitaries. Paramilitaries were terrorising and exploiting their own communities—one more reason why no more justification can be given to equate innocent victims with terrorists. I support the amendment proposed by the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

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[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, I welcome the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, to the Dispatch Box. He played a very significant role in Northern Ireland, and it is great to see him speaking from the Dispatch Box.

Before I address the amendments, it has already been mentioned that organisations that deal with the legacy of the past may be the subject of legislation in future, but only if sufficient consensus can be established among the Northern Ireland parties. Amendments 3 and 5, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, relate to the definition of a victim in relation to the role of the Commission for Victims and Survivors. Before I engage on the detail of these amendments and the challenges that they pose, I first make clear that the Government are sympathetic to the import and feeling behind them. Noble Lords will be aware that the definition of a victim in Northern Ireland is a matter of considerable contention. It is a matter that has been debated in this House before—indeed, I think the noble Lord, Lord Empey, tabled a similar amendment to the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill in November 2014—and it remains an area of disagreement between the Northern Ireland parties that is yet to be resolved.

The legislation defining a victim in the context of legacy matters in Northern Ireland relates to the work of the Commission for Victims and Survivors. Under that order, which is now a devolved responsibility, the term “victim and survivor” is defined as a person appearing to the commission to be physically or psychologically injured as a result of a conflict-related incident, or who regularly provides substantial care for such a person, or who is bereaved as a result. This is a broad definition and can include persons who are psychologically injured as a result of being a witness to an incident or of providing medical or emergency assistance to a person in connection with an incident.

The placing of restrictions on the definition of a victim is a difficult and complex issue affecting access to services for those who have suffered losses during the Troubles. However, let me be clear again that the Government believe that there is an unquestionable distinction between innocent victims and perpetrators. As my right honourable friend the Secretary of State said in February:

“The terrorist campaigns caused untold misery and suffering”,

and we will never accept any equivalence between those who sought to defend democracy and those who attempted to destroy it.

Under the current definition, it is possible for someone who was a perpetrator of violence or their family member or carer to be defined as a victim and to benefit from the commission’s assistance. The Victims and Survivors (Northern Ireland) Order 2006 was passed by the previous Labour Government, and the definition remains highly controversial, with the Northern Ireland parties divided on the issue. The lack of consensus around the definition of a victim is one of the key challenges in dealing with the past, and the issue has not formed part of the two agreements reached in recent cross-party talks: the Stormont House and fresh start agreements.

As I mentioned previously, this legislation is now a devolved matter and therefore the responsibility of the Northern Ireland Assembly. Accordingly, any change to the definition would require cross-community support in the Assembly, and at present the issue is not one on which the Northern Ireland parties have been able to agree a way forward. Even if the Assembly were currently sitting, I doubt that a legislative consent Motion would be agreed enabling this Parliament to change the definition.

Noble Lords will be aware of the significant progress that has already been made on legacy issues during the Stormont House talks towards the end of 2014. It included the Northern Ireland Executive agreeing the Victims and Survivors Commission’s recommendation for a new mental trauma service, better to meet the needs in this area. Advocate counsellor assistance was agreed for victims and survivors in order to provide support and help to individuals in accessing relevant services.

When it comes to the past, and I recognise that many noble Lords have strong views on how best to deal with it, it is clear that victims should be our first priority. These commitments in the Stormont House agreement have the potential to deliver better outcomes for victims and their families. The delivery of the Stormont House agreement still represents the best chance of making progress on these matters and remains the Government’s priority in dealing with Northern Ireland’s troubled past.

My noble friend has made an argument on the issue of victims with which it is easy to sympathise. As I have made clear, the Government agree that there is a clear distinction between innocent victims and perpetrators. However, the matter is one that I am sure noble Lords will agree is best resolved by the political parties in Northern Ireland, and on that basis I urge my noble friend to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Empey]

I am obliged to the Minister for his response. I would point out to the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, and others that I and my party will take any legislative opportunity that we can to put this case forward. It should be drawn to people’s attention that the current legislation was introduced during direct rule. Had there been devolution at that time, there would not have been agreement on the current order because it does not do what it says on the tin. For that reason, we would object strongly. The reason why this Parliament has a role is its oversight over some of the fundamental issues. I still believe that while this particular legislative vehicle may not be the most appropriate, it is nevertheless possible to resolve this because it is such a fundamental issue.

The Minister says that Stormont has this responsibility today, but I can tell him that had Stormont been dealing with things at this stage in 2006 it would never have agreed to this particular set of proposals, because they leave the door wide open. They do not distinguish between a perpetrator and victim; in fact, they make the perpetrator and the victim equal. That is what the order says, and my amendment seeks to change that.

I understand the dilemma that the Minister is in. We can run away from this issue as much as we like but sooner or later we are going to have to confront it. Whether in this vehicle or some other vehicle is unimportant, but I personally and my colleagues in my party will take every legislative opportunity that comes our way to put this case until the matter is resolved. Having said that, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 3 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Empey]

4: Clause 8, page 5, line 11, at end insert—
“(5) Standing orders must provide for a process for investigating any alleged breach of the undertaking by any member of the Assembly and for determining whether the undertaking has been breached.(6) Standing orders must provide for sanctions that shall apply to any member of the Assembly who has been found to have breached the terms of the undertaking.”

[Lord Empey]

My Lords, this amendment was moved in the other place. It is on the back of the fact that a series of pledges were included in the Stormont House agreement, to which people were asked to commit before they took office as Ministers and Assembly Members, relating to a series of things that I have no difficulty with, although I said at Second Reading that I had little faith in commitments because I thought some people would sign anything, and the history over the last 30 years was that they did so. We had issues at local government level where people had to sign, pledging to a peaceful way forward, when we knew that they had no intention of doing so. Still, the language in some of the pledges is quite positive and a step forward.

However, if there is a breach of those undertakings, no sanction whatever is provided for. The point was made repeatedly in the House of Commons from all parties, including the Labour Party, that there were gaps here that should be filled. I suggest that we make it clear that Standing Orders should be provided in the Assembly saying that if a person is clearly guilty of a breach of these undertakings, something happens. At present, nothing happens. What will happen in practice is what has happened before: even where someone is in breach or is challenged over their behaviour in the current Assembly, the party of which that person is a member puts down a petition of concern, if it is in a position to do so, which means that nothing happens. That means we can have the best form of commitments and statements of commitment to pursue peaceful means and all the rest of it, but at the end of the day nothing can be done in the Assembly to have any impact or effect any change. That point was made repeatedly in the other place. It makes sense if you have a series of commitments that people are being asked to make. What is the point of asking them to make those commitments if, when they breach them, absolutely nothing happens?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dunlop]

My Lords, this has been a short but important debate. Clause 8 makes provision for a new undertaking to be given by all Members of the Northern Ireland Assembly, in line with the fresh start agreement. To be clear with the Committee, it was necessary to introduce this undertaking through Westminster legislation because the Assembly is prohibited by the Northern Ireland Act from introducing a requirement for its Members to make an oath or declaration as a condition of taking office. The Assembly has established mechanisms for holding MLAs to account for their adherence to the existing Assembly code of conduct, through the Assembly Committee on Standards and Privileges and the independent Commissioner for Standards. The Assembly already has the power to introduce measures to investigate alleged breaches of the undertaking and to impose sanctions for any such breaches.

The amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, assumes that Standing Orders would be the obvious vehicle for introducing any such measures, but this is not necessarily the only vehicle. For example, it may be open to the Assembly to legislate. There may of course be other options, and it is right that the Assembly should be able to debate and explore the available options for itself. Indeed, the whole issue of devolution was mentioned by my noble friend Lord Trimble. There is considerable value in the Assembly and not this House determining how MLAs should be held to account for any breaches of the new undertaking, just as this House holds its Members to account for their behaviour. Any such measures would of course need to be built upon cross-community support in the Assembly, and it must be right that Assembly Members should be subject to scrutiny for their conduct.

To answer the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, the Government will of course encourage the Assembly to consider carefully how this might be achieved. However, for the reasons I have given, I urge the noble Lord to withdraw this amendment.

[Lord Empey]

Once again, I thank the Minister for his comments and thank other noble Lords who have participated in this. As with the Minister, it is great to see the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, at the Dispatch Box once again. He knows his onions when it comes to this subject.

The Minister is right that Standing Orders may not be the only mechanism. I do not care what the mechanism is, to be honest. The simple point—the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, put it very clearly—is that these pledges mean nothing if they can be ignored with no consequence. That is self-evident. The Minister hinted to us that he intended to bring forward another piece of legislation in the next Session, perhaps to deal with legacy and other matters. There will therefore be time for the Assembly to address this issue, and I welcome that, but there will also be time for the Assembly not to address it. However, I think that we, and the Government, will be provided with an opportunity and the time to get this matter resolved. If it is not resolved, it will continue to fester.

If I may paraphrase MacArthur, I assure the Minister that we shall return to this matter if it is not resolved. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 4 withdrawn.

Northern Ireland (Stormont Agreement and Implementation Plan) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 12th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, before speaking on the detail of the Bill, perhaps I may take this opportunity to thank the Minister for his engagement with Members of your Lordships’ House over the past few months while we have been working our way up to this point. It is welcome to have that engagement because it is helpful, and as the Minister has indicated, it will continue tomorrow and no doubt in the days ahead as we move towards the further stages of the Bill. I would also say that the nostalgic contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, reminds us that the passage of time has, I would suppose, disappointed some of us in that we envisaged that while of course we came from a terrible state back in the 1980s, 1990s and 2000s, nevertheless we had hoped that by this stage we would be moving on to a different political environment from the one in which we find ourselves. But I suppose one has to play the cards one is dealt and we will have to deal with the matter before us.

Without wishing to be negative about it, I have to say that if the Stormont House agreement of 2014 was a steak and kidney pudding, the Bill before us is a reheated version with the steak and kidney having been removed from it in the form of the real substance of the discussions in 2014. Agreement had broadly, though not entirely, been reached, but in early 2015, for base political reasons, one party to that agreement—Sinn Fein—ratted on the agreement and left Northern Ireland facing a huge constitutional and financial crisis, which was totally uncalled for. It was all to do with the politics in the Irish Republic and had absolutely nothing to do with the welfare of the people of Northern Ireland. There is no point in dilly-dallying about the issue. That is why this particular negotiated proposal is before us. The one that we understood was agreed was ratted on by those who had agreed to it. That is why we were left in 2015 with another wasted year, when progress should have been made in other matters.

As to the Bill, the Independent Reporting Commission is something that I broadly welcome. The previous mechanism that existed—the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was a member of it as well—probably ended prematurely. However, after the events of last spring and summer—when two murders had taken place, where the police had clearly indicated in a statement that the IRA was involved and when we did not have any mechanism to shine a light on that—it was perfectly clear that a gap had opened up. We will have things to say at a later stage in the Bill about the establishment of this body, its membership and so on, and the Minister himself will be returning to it, as he said in this opening statement. Nevertheless, it will instil a degree of confidence that there is somebody there who can shine a light.

No matter what anybody says, when we come to the issue of pledges and so on, the history in Stormont has been that parties will close ranks and misuse the processes for cross-community support when it suits them. There is a long-established history of that. Nevertheless, the fact that the body is being established is a step forward to redress and fill a gap in the market which clearly exists.

It was quite shocking to people to have it put to their faces by the chief constable that the IRA was still involved and that, effectively, Sinn Fein was under its influence. Most people, if they were asked in the street, would probably say that that was true. But to have it said by the chief police officer to your face after a murder, and after the passage of time, was quite a shock. Something had to be done about it, and we are gradually moving in that direction. I have no doubt that the Secretary of State in the other place, who had been in charge of the negotiations of the Stormont House agreement in 2014, would have much preferred to have put the total thing forward, but she was unable to. We faced a crisis throughout last year. Yes, the security issue was critical but other issues caused the problem as well.

As we go forward into the Bill itself on the issue of the state of the pledges, I can only say that I am not a great fan of pledges. I do not believe that they matter to some people. Pledges in local government were introduced way back in the 1980s or 1990s. People who were known terrorists and members of councils willingly signed them without any hesitation. Indeed, I think the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was a member of Belfast City Council at the same time. We had some leading lights in there, such as the councillor who blew up the Europa Hotel 23 times. The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, was a member; the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, was a member; and I was a member. We know who this man was and we know what he did, and he was quite prepared to sign a pledge. If we move forward to where we would be with Stormont, Mr Gerry Adams says he has never been in the IRA. Could we fill a telephone box in this country with people who would believe that? Yet he is the leader of a party in the current Irish Government. The history is that these folks will sign anything. It does not matter to them; it is water off a duck’s back. I have little faith in this sort of activity. I have no objections to it. If you want to put it in, put it in if it makes people feel better. Yet if we felt that somebody was going to be effectively damaged by it and put in a petition of concern, there is no sanction. Even if the Assembly agreed one, it is perfectly capable under that process of being stymied anyway. That is why we always felt more comfortable with an external process where something could be delivered. I have no difficulty with this although some make the argument that the use of the word “transitional” could give people a lot of wriggle room. At the end of the day, given what people are prepared to stand up and say—they lie to your face with impunity—I have little doubt that they would sign whatever they were required to without any hesitation.

On Clause 6, on the extended period for the appointment of Ministers, my party has been pushing at this for a number of years. The clause adds only an extra week but when we previously did this we filled the silos the minute we got back home and then started to negotiate a programme for government. With this, we are trying to do it the other way round: first, see if it is possible to agree a programme for government; then, if it is, Ministers would be identified on the basis of the programme broadly agreed. I think a programme for government should be a short, sharp document. The ones I was involved in during previous Executives turned out at something like 90 pages. The vast majority was never implemented anyway. If this works, it might help to focus people on a number of key issues that were agreed before taking office. That might be helpful, but on the other hand people might say, “Well, if whoever were the two largest parties agreed among themselves, never mind, we’ll go through this process and sort it out afterwards”. They can still do that but at least this opportunity is provided and the public will be able to make their judgments.

When we deal with the financial issues we should remember that, last year, Stormont for the first time since 1921 could not balance its books. That had never happened before. Yes, there was the welfare crisis—largely created by Sinn Fein, although all parties had issues or major objections, including my own party. I support some of the compromises that have emerged since. However, the principal reason that there was a financial crisis was really down to sheer incompetence. I got Parliamentary Answers from the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, in November 2014 in which he set out when the Government had advised the Executive what their budget was. They were advised in autumn 2010 what their budget was up to the end of 2015, and they were advised in June 2013 what their budget was up to 2016. Knowing those figures and for that length of time, it was obvious to anybody that there would have to be reductions in public services, even though the financial settlements for Northern Ireland were more generous, taken in the round, than for other devolved regions. Despite that, nothing of substance was done and the arithmetic just did not add up. Although welfare was a significant portion of it, it was not the majority.

What is the solution to that? Instead of having four years in which to plan, to go through a process of people voluntarily leaving their posts and making other arrangements in departments, we ended up changing the budget in-year—the worst possible set of circumstances. Not only that, we have now given the Administration—the Government went ahead and pushed this through in September last year—permission to borrow £700 million to pay off 20,000 public sector workers. That was entirely avoidable. I am also concerned that the Assembly is now racking up huge amounts of borrowing. By the end of this financial year, it will be close to £3 billion of borrowing. That is becoming a very substantial slice of our cake.

We also find ourselves in the position where between 20% and 25% of the population are on hospital waiting lists. We have moved on nearly two decades, so the performance of the Assembly now has to be looked at not simply in the light that it has survived, which I welcome, but also in terms of its delivery. That is where there is huge failure.

Although there are many measures in the Bill to be welcomed, many issues are not in it. I am very pleased to see the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, in her place and in such good voice this evening. Given that she was a leading light at the time, she will recall the changes that were made to the structures in 2006—the fundamental reason in my opinion why we are not further on—when, following the St Andrews agreement, changes were made to the identification of the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister. Instead of the Assembly appointing them on a cross-community vote, it was done by whichever were the largest two parties. That meant that each subsequent election became a sectarian headcount. That is still the position now. I think that the public have caught on, are getting that message and realise what was done. Nevertheless, that is one of the reasons why we are where we are. Instead of having a shared Government, we have a shared-out Government. There is a lot more to be done. That change was made without reference to the people who had actually negotiated the agreement. It was done behind closed doors and was done basically to buy off those people who had been difficult. I understand why Tony Blair’s Government did it and I think that the noble Lord, Lord Hain, who is not in his place, was deeply involved in it. However, I believe that it was a fundamental mistake and we are still paying the price for it.

There will be opportunities at a later stage to discuss all these issues and more and I look forward to that. I hope that as we move forward we will address delivery mechanisms and real improvements to people’s lives because, sadly, many people have been sucked into violence. Even in my former patch, the paramilitaries are rampant. The idea that they have gone away is not true; they are still active and have morphed into different areas of activity. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, will not wish to prejudice anything he might subsequently discover but this is no secret. He will find that there are huge areas of activity in which they are still engaged. They are in many cases major role models for young people in inner-city areas right across the Province. We have not drilled down into the social and economic deprivation in those areas, which is as bad as ever. Yet those are the very people who should have been convinced by the actions of the Assembly that politics works, and works for them. All those young people with no aims or goals in life are at the mercy of people with warped political ideas. We should bear in mind that many of the young people who have been arrested for dissident republican activity had hardly been born at the time the agreement was made, let alone had any major experience of it, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, pointed out. However, they have been used by people to deliver what the latter can no longer deliver, and that is an outrage. Only by making politics work and deliver for those communities will we eventually break the link between the two and the poison that these people spread. I look forward to further discussions and debates next week when we will have an opportunity to drill down into some of these measures in greater depth.