Parliament: Restoration and Renewal Project

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 22nd July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I always commend an open mind, but unfortunately for the Liberal Democrat party, many of its proposals for reform have fallen on stony ground.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, in the event that the Government should decide to move this House to another location against its will, would that require primary legislation and would the Minister propose to take such legislation through all its stages in this House?

Finance Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

2nd reading & Committee negatived & 3rd reading & 2nd reading (Hansard) & 2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & 3rd reading (Hansard) & 3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords & Committee negatived (Hansard) & Committee negatived (Hansard): House of Lords
Friday 17th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, we need to recall that, in attempting to increase revenue, by increasing tax we have in fact reduced revenue in stamp duty terms. This a lesson we need to learn for the future. I ask the Minister to look very closely at how this tax is reintroduced—not only its thresholds but the rationale for it. Simply imposing a large amount of tax does not in fact produce enough revenue for the Treasury.

There is an overwhelming fear in the hearts of many people in this country about the enormous amount of money we are borrowing. There is no alternative, but having been taught in recent years to believe in the age of austerity and the dangers of spending too much money on the public sector, many people fear that we are embarking on a journey whose destination and the time it will take we do not know.

There is an underlying issue when we talk about trying to regenerate the economy. Walking into this building this morning—and indeed last week, for the first time since March—one could see the problem with one’s own eyes: the people are simply not there. They are not there because they are afraid, or they can see that there are alternative ways of working—Sir Patrick Vallance tells them one thing, the Prime Minister tells them another. The fact is, the streets are largely empty in this part of London, which is symptomatic of the rest of the country. We need to get our act together, bearing in mind that, if there were to be a second spike, our economy would be in colossal difficulty.

In the 1970s, this country made a huge mistake in turning its back on manufacturing. We are not making things, and our service sector is vulnerable to very short-term issues. As has already been mentioned, the furlough was a bold announcement. But, speaking as someone who takes a keen interest in the APPG on aerospace, I know that if we do not find a sectoral resolution for aerospace, we will have great difficulties. We are number two in the world in aerospace, but that could very quickly slip away from us.

We need to refocus our economy and take this opportunity, but we need to remember that making things is how we generate the most revenue, and we are simply not doing it.

House of Lords and Machinery of Government: Consultation on Changes

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

My Lords, I do not necessarily agree with that argument: the noble Baroness is holding me to account at present. It is no secret that I was not an enthusiast for the Strasbourg Parliament.

[Lord Empey (UUP) [V]]

Will the Minister confirm to the House whether the decision of the Supreme Court to become involved in the Prorogation dispute last autumn will be considered as part of the review when the commission is established?

[Lord True]

My Lords, I must repeat that, obviously, the commission will be looking at a wide range of matters and the broader aspects of the constitution. The issue that the noble Lord mentioned is of great constitutional importance and certainly deserves examination.

Covid-19: Economy

Lord Empey Excerpts

Thursday 4th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, a number of colleagues have mentioned housing. However, there is a perverse government policy with regard to the application of VAT that applies in the housing market. It is environmentally and in many other ways more economic to encourage the development of social and other housing on brownfield sites where existing infrastructure is already in place. However, the way the VAT system works is that we incentivise people to build on greenfield sites, which is counterintuitive.

I have raised this issue in the past, and the Treasury’s argument has been that there would be refurbishments and renewals of brownfield properties, and therefore that there would be dead weight if the VAT were reduced or removed on brownfield work and refurbishments. However, we are in a new era now, and I believe the Treasury should revisit this. Removing that cost in redevelopment of brownfield sites, for commercial and particularly housing projects, could be a stimulus but would also help solve the housing problem, which is at the core of poverty and so many social and other issues.

Will the Minister examine the possibility of using the VAT system to encourage the redevelopment and refurbishment of properties on brownfield sites and not give an incentive to people to build on greenfield sites?

Beyond Brexit (European Union Committee Report)

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 12th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the report talks about winning friends and influencing people. I believe one of the key requirements for that is a strong and growing diplomatic push by the United Kingdom throughout the world. From 2017-18, even after the EU referendum, the United Kingdom started to cut back the resources it was putting into our Diplomatic Service. In fact, the Foreign Office was one of the few departments getting hit really hard by the budgets. Can the Minister assure the House that adequate efforts will be made to build up our diplomatic capability, once the best in the world? We are now confronted with the fact that we need it even more, but I believe it has been starved of resources.

Many Members have already mentioned the position in Ireland. I never thought I would see a Conservative and Unionist Government agree to a border in the Irish Sea. To try to pretend that our position in the rest of the United Kingdom is not altered by the contents of the protocol is misleading—it makes a huge change—but by using and adapting the existing structures of the Good Friday agreement, as my noble friend Lord Caine said earlier in the debate, we have at our disposal a mechanism by which we can find a way of resolving these matters without damaging the union. Whatever the United Kingdom does, it must ensure that its international diplomatic capability is reinforced, not cut back.

Brexit: Financial Assistance for Businesses

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 26th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

The noble Baroness asked rather a lot of questions there; I will try to answer one or two of them. Northern Ireland will continue to be part of the UK customs territories, and practical information will be required for goods moving from the rest of the UK to Northern Ireland. This will be provided electronically, and the Government will work with the EU to minimise the impact to traders. Through the grant system that I mentioned in my Answer, we have seen 3,000 customs agents trained over the last 18 months, and that process will continue.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister has effectively conceded that there will be a regulatory border in the Irish Sea, but there is confusion over that because the Prime Minister is saying that there will not be. Either there is or there is not. Will the Minister confirm that any additional costs attributed to administering that will in fact be met by Her Majesty’s Government and that businesses will not be disadvantaged in any way?

[Lord Agnew of Oulton]

My Lords, the negotiation is a dynamic process; we are at the beginning of what will be a very fractious negotiation over the next nine months. I tell those noble Lords with a gentle stomach that what we are seeing today are the opening remarks of the EU: it is going to get a lot hotter over the next nine months, and we will know more clearly probably by the middle of December.

Brexit: Stability of the Union

Lord Empey Excerpts

Thursday 17th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, I too congratulate the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, on securing this debate. I also thank him and his colleagues in the Constitution Reform Group, including the Marquess of Salisbury, the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and others. They have at least been working on a growing problem which, by and large, has not been strategically addressed.

As we have sat in this House over the last few years, a number of noble Lords on the Front Bench have brought forward one constitutional Bill after another. We had several Welsh Bills and Scottish Bills as well as ones pertaining to Northern Ireland. At the other end of the Corridor we had English votes for English laws; we had referenda, which sometimes seemed to pop up without any real definition of when they should be introduced; and we had had a variety of proposals to reform your Lordships’ House. The underlying common denominator of all this is that there is no overarching plan. It is haphazard, and driven by events and pressures. There is no strategy involved in any of it. At least the noble Lord, Lord Lisvane, and his colleagues have been attempting to do something about that—not that I accept everything they say; I do not. At the same time, they are at least sitting down and making an effort. Other people, including on the committees of this House and in Parliament, as the noble Earl, Lord Kinnoull, pointed out, have also made contributions.

However, the fact is that we have no clear idea of how things are to be done. For instance, there is no plan for how the devolved regions should account for the money that is provided to them by central government for their actions. There is no accountability. They can decide to contribute views or not. I said in another debate that it was like a giant ATM machine: devolved Ministers can draw out money, but they do not have to make any contributions on what they have done with it. I would like the Minister in his reply to address that.

Then we have the Sewel convention and other things that have developed. In addition, of course, we have the catastrophe back at home, with no devolved Government, no direct rule Ministers—nothing. It is all completely absent. If the backstop proposals were to be implemented, we would be in even worse shape, because we would have no representation in Europe as well. Talk about a democratic beheading—we have a clear example of it there.

The noble Lord, Lord McConnell, referenced the Joint Ministerial Committee. I have sat on that body, and I have to say that Whitehall Ministers turn up as if it was a chore. In other words, there is no appetite for it whatever. They turned up because they had to, and they normally sent not their number one but their number two or number three along to represent them. They had no interest in it—it was a nuisance—and that says it all. That has to be fixed, and it will not be fixed unless there is an overall plan.

The other thing that concerns me is referenda. We have had a number of them over the years. The two big ones on Europe were brought into being because of internal disputes within the two major parties. We had a referendum on AV, and referenda in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Again, it is all haphazard—there is no plan. A number of people are saying that we need another referendum to get out of our present difficulties. Take care; it is a very divisive thing. You would not know what the result of another referendum might be, and it could set up the pieces for a further Scottish referendum. I do not see how you could make a coherent argument against a second Scottish referendum if you have one on Europe again. There will also be the question about what you have on the ballot paper; it could be divisive and very unrealistic. You could have a border poll and a Scottish referendum both driven by a further referendum on our EU membership—so I hope that Members will consider that carefully.

There must be a serious discussion on the constitutional future of this country and its structures, not a continuation of the haphazard Bills that come before us, one after the other.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 30th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, naturally I want to begin by referring to the Irish border question, as we are one of the regions most affected by the decision taken in 2016. I believe that the question of the Irish border has almost been weaponised in this debate because, in my view, the scale of the problem has been grossly exaggerated. Statistics are dangerous things, but I want to give some figures from the Irish Central Statistics Office. In 2015, imports to the Irish Republic from Northern Ireland accounted for 1.6% of total Irish imports. Coincidentally, the percentage of exports to Northern Ireland from the Irish Republic amounted to 1.6%.

Of course, that does not tell the whole story. It is perfectly obvious that there are local issues, particularly around agriculture, the movement of animals and things of that nature, and the processing that continues. We have to put this into perspective, however. When people bandy around language about threats to the Good Friday agreement, most of those making such claims did not negotiate the Good Friday or Belfast agreement and, as far as I am aware, have not consulted any of us who did. We should bear in mind that we should be cautious with language, because people are using this for political purposes. It has been used deliberately in the Republic, by Sinn Fein, to try to create a huge crisis. It is a difficult issue—there is no question of that—but I believe that there is a will on both sides of the Irish Sea to resolve it. I also believe that the United Kingdom Government will not put up a border. The only threat of a border comes from Brussels forcing the Irish Republic to put one up, and we all know that, politically, it is impossible for them to do so. Therefore, we have to look at alternative mechanisms. There are quite a number at our disposal. I appeal to colleagues to remember that when they use such language and this example, it is seized on by elements not in favour of a peaceful outcome and a settlement within the constitutional framework that the agreement set out to achieve.

I am glad that the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, is back in his place. Earlier, in his contribution, he said that he wanted the devolved Administrations to have a legislative consent Motion and that one from each of them would have to be in place before a decision could be taken. I hope he realises what he is saying. He would be giving a veto on the future of the United Kingdom’s position in the European Union to Sinn Fein because it would have the ability in the Stormont Assembly—if it were functioning—to veto any legislative consent Motion, irrespective of the terms. He must understand that that is the inevitable consequence of what he is saying. I accept that there are consequences to and difficulties with the devolution settlements. People need to realise something about the powers that would naturally come back to the devolved Administrations. The devolved Administrations —and the United Kingdom as a whole—have not had any input on, for example, agricultural policy for 46 years. We have no capacity at the present time, let alone the devolved Administrations.

Energy is another key issue. We have constructed, or are trying to construct, an all-Ireland energy market, but it is not an energy market on its own. It is connected by both gas and electricity to Great Britain, and our UK energy market is physically connected to France. Clearly, big issues there need to be resolved. I also want to make a point about mutual recognition agreements, particularly as they apply to things such as medical devices. The CE safety mark that applies to many goods is one of the matters that we will have to thrash out as the legislation proceeds and other Bills come before the House.

I close by making the point that we talk about the wonderful trade opportunities we have. That is true, but we are still running an £80 billion deficit with the European Union. While it is vital to maintain the maximum amount of trade that we can, there is something seriously wrong with how we are doing business if we have a £1.5 billion a week loss on trade, week in, week out. What is wrong with us? There are clearly other policy issues. Our membership, or lack of it, of the European Union is not the whole story. It is a part of it but not all of it.

One thing I became aware of recently was that many people in this country feel an allegiance to the European Union that almost exceeds their allegiance to the United Kingdom. I had not been aware of that before. I understand that there are lots of people out there to be convinced, but we have had the referendum. It was an “in or out” referendum and the Head of the Government made that clear. Parliament passed the law and, whatever our position as a party—already alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney—it is done. We should get on with it and get the best possible deal, but trying to rehash the thing will merely create further division and leave us with no prospect of a future.

Electoral Registration and Administration Act 2013 (Transitional Provisions) Order 2015

Lord Empey Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wills]

No, my Lords. As I have already said, this is a difficult issue because we are trying to balance competing priorities. Of course the accuracy of the register is important, which is why all sides support the introduction of individual registration and why as a Minister I legislated to bring it into play. There is no question about the importance attached to accuracy. However, it has to be balanced by a comprehensive register, for all the reasons I have endeavoured to set out today. The Government could have done a very simple thing: they could have accepted the Electoral Commission’s recommendations. It would not have solved all the problems—they are too intractable for that—but it would have helped. The Government have decided to reject that. The risks are clear but, for no good reason, the Government have ignored them. Despite the eloquence of the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, and what I am sure will be the eloquence of the Minister in due course, no good reasons have been given for doing this.

The last time I spoke in a debate with the Minister at the Dispatch Box, I recommended that he read Aristotle. I am sure that, with his very heavy workload, he has not managed to pull down that well-thumbed volume from his bookshelves, so perhaps I may remind him of the words of that great Greek philosopher. He said that,

“constitutions which aim at the common advantage are correct and just without qualification, whereas those which aim only at the advantage of the rulers”—

or, in this case, only at the advantage of the Conservative Party—

“are deviant and unjust because they involve despotic rule which is inappropriate for a community of free persons”.

Once again, I recommend those words to the Minister; and to your Lordships’ House, I also recommend the conclusion of the royal commission, in 2000, that your Lordships’ House should act as a “constitutional long-stop” to ensure that,

“changes are not made to the constitution without full and open debate and an awareness of the consequences”.

That is why I will support this Motion.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Wills, used the word haste, but this process has been going at a snail’s pace for years. We introduced individual electoral registration in 2002. As my noble friend Lord Lexden pointed out, the solution in dealing with the inevitable groups who tend to be underrepresented on every electoral register is not just to sit back and leave on the register loads of people who may or may not exist; as my noble friend Lord Lexden said, you target those groups. You form a schools initiative and go round the universities and the schools. We had a mobile unit that went round housing estates knocking on doors and to community centres to give people photographic ID cards so that they could use them at the electoral office if they did not have passports or driving licences. You target the people who you know are traditionally not on the registers.

As the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, said, the Electoral Commission is a body that the whole House respects. However, it is not a body that we take instructions from; it is a body that we listen to and consider. Take the Scottish referendum: I do not think that that was a particularly great example of good advice.

Nevertheless, we are talking about a balance of risk: the risk that people who are currently on the register will be denied a vote in the future versus the risk that people will be on the register and constituency boundaries drawn up on the basis of people who are not there at all.

There is another category of person that has not been identified. We talked about a figure of 1.9 million people. But even on the figures that we are getting more recently, that number will have reduced substantially, one way or the other, by the time that we come to December. However, that does not mean that those 1.1 million or 1.2 million people, as it will be by that stage, will not be on the electoral register; it just means that they will not be on the register at the address that they were knocked off it from.

In Belfast, there was a transition period when the process came in, and the register was printed including the names of those who were not individually registered. That is perfectly sensible and reasonable. However, a point came at which we decided to draw the line. At that point, people had to be individually registered or else they were taken off the register. In the Botanic ward in Belfast, near the university—my noble friend Lord Lexden will be very familiar with it—the number of people on the electoral register dropped by 27%. The reason was that the students, nurses, junior doctors and others in the area who occupied many of the dwellings were not there. However, they were registered at their home address in various other parts of the country. Just because a number of people are taken off the register, that does not mean that they are not voting somewhere. That is an issue that has to be taken into account, but which has not been in this debate so far.

The Act that the Minister has used to bring this provision forward provided him with the opportunity to do so. It could have said “2016”, but it included the provision that it could be brought in earlier. Presumably, therefore, at that stage, the Minister and the House saw circumstances in which there could be a variation in the timing of this process.

As I said to someone rather light-heartedly, even with these measures being introduced, it was lily-livered legislation. For example, it does not deal with the barking mad idea of postal votes on demand. Also, people still need to have photographic ID—there are huge gaps. However, I do not believe in the blood-curdling prognosis that the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, has brought forward as the risk factor here. In a transition from one system to another, there is always risk. It is a question of finding out what the balance is. There is substantial time and still opportunity to do that.

A big push should be made between now and the end of the year for publicity and action at local level. I also believe that the opportunity will still exist after 1 December for people to register. They should do what we did and target groups—it works. We have the proof, in that we got young people on to the register at a very high level. Target the schools, universities and community centres, particularly those in urban areas, because we all accept that the same profile of individual tends to be off the register in most places.

There is also another category of person: those who do not wish to be on the register. That can be for a variety of reasons: they could be “doing the double”, avoiding moneylenders or all sorts of things. People deliberately take themselves off the register. In my view, there is no way that we are going to deal with that, unless we change the law dramatically.

On balance, the risk here is that there are grossly inaccurate registers in certain places. There is no point in persisting and saying, “Well, we’ll keep it going for longer and longer”, because that will not fix anything. If you identify a problem in a particular area, you go and target the area. The local councils know where these areas are. We know where the schools are and where the universities are. Target those places instead of this blunderbuss approach where you just carry on and hope that, over time, it will get it more accurate. It will not.

[Lord Greaves (LD)]

The noble Lord tells us a story of the wonderful things that have happened in Northern Ireland and the way in which many of these problems have been tackled, but given the present state of local government resources and the view taken of some of these things in England and Wales, does he think that there is a chance at all that in the next six months they will happen here?

[Lord Empey]

That is a perfectly reasonable and sensible point. I absolutely agree that it does need resources. I understand that there have been some additional funds—my noble friend Lord Lexden mentioned one example, and a further £3 million has been put in—and I would be entirely supportive if the Government felt the need to put more money into local authorities. I do not know what applications there have been from local authorities. Perhaps the Minister can tell the House what responses he has had. As I understand it, although the aid is targeted at certain boroughs, it is open to others to apply. Perhaps the Minister can give the House an assurance that, should the applications outreach the supply, the Government will look at that. That is a very sensible suggestion from the noble Lord, Lord Greaves. All I am saying, from our experience, is that by bringing it to a conclusion you force people to do something. If you combine it with the special measures that I have outlined, together perhaps even with additional resource, we will end up in six months’ time with a very effective register.

[Lord Tyler]

I am very sympathetic to the point that the noble Lord is making. However, that is not the timescale. It is just five weeks to 1 December. That is the vital date. All he is talking about, which could happen in five or six months, simply will not happen in five weeks. He also said that some people who are not on the register wish to be on the register. These are people who are on the existing register but are not being transferred on to the new register. They want to vote, they want to be registered and they want to be part of the electoral process.

[Lord Empey]

I say to the noble Lord, Lord Tyler, that people can be on the register in a particular constituency, but that does not mean that they are not on the register in a different constituency. That is the point that I made in the student example. We found that people registered in their place of residence at home registered again when they came up to the university area. When they had to produce a national insurance number we could tell that people were registered in two different places and they got knocked off in one place but were still on the register in another. That practice is widespread and well known.

[Lord Purvis of Tweed (LD)]

Does the noble Lord acknowledge that the Electoral Commission report which has been cited has taken all that into consideration? It did a very good and nuanced report that looked at the risks and benefits. It concluded, as my noble friend Lord Tyler indicated, that given the five weeks’ notice and potentially the 250,000 people affected by this in Scotland alone, it was not right to bring forward the closure of the transition period. The more targeted approach that he is asking for is best conducted over the normal timeframe which the Electoral Commission and the EROs have operated under existing processes.

[Lord Empey]

First, I do not accept that the scale of the problem is as large as the noble Lord suggests. As to the five weeks, our experience is that this process has been going on for quite some time—it is not as if it has come from nowhere. We are talking about the opportunity at least to bring it to a conclusion. However, the period after 1 December is not a period in which nothing can happen. People can continue to register. I hope the Minister has listened seriously to what the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, has said. It has been done before and it works if it is targeted. If we are drawing up new boundaries in parallel, the best thing to do is get on with it, draw the line, bring it to a head and provide the resources to target the groups that are traditionally underrepresented. If the effort is made we will end up with a very accurate register. However, the Government should go further. The noble Lord, Lord Wills, made a fair point when he mentioned ID. I do not understand why people should not be asked for their identity when they go to a polling station. It is a very basic thing to do. The postal voting system is mad. There is a lot of work to do and the problem with this process is that the Government are not going far enough.

Defence Review

Lord Empey Excerpts

Wednesday 25th March 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Empey]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether, in the light of the current security situation in Europe, they will bring forward the commencement date for the next defence review.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire (LD)]

My Lords, the exact timing of the post-election strategic defence and security review is for the incoming Government to decide, but preparatory work is under way across Whitehall. Noble Lords will be aware of the latest edition of Global Strategic Trends, published by the Ministry of Defence. This and other papers feed into the confidential national security risk assessment, which will in turn inform the next national security strategy and the subsequent strategic defence and security review.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

My Lords, the Minister will be aware of the widespread concern, both inside and outside Parliament, that, with the lack of defence capability, we face widespread political and security turbulence, not only in eastern Europe, but in other areas, such as the Middle East. I appeal for this process to be truncated. This is a matter of urgency because of the clear gaps in our capability. We cannot hide them or sweep them under the carpet: they are there. This review is the mechanism that can start the process of filling the gaps. I appeal to the Minister to ensure that his right honourable friends in the other place understand that that is the feeling I believe to be widespread throughout the United Kingdom and that this needs to be brought forward as a matter of urgency.

[Lord Wallace of Saltaire]

My Lords, I disagree with the noble Lord in a number of ways. It is important not to rush too far and too fast into this. The question of what forces we want for what ends remains relatively open. The noble Lord’s Question referred to the situation in Europe as the reason why we had to rush. The last time we were in a direct conflict with Russia we bombarded Helsinki and laid siege to Sevastopol. I do not think that is what we want to do this time.