Airports (Amendment) Bill [HL]
Lord Empey Excerpts(13 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Empey
My Lords, successive Governments have, for many years, implemented regional policies. These policies have been designed to prevent, or at least reduce, economic decline in those areas of the country that have seen their economic strength eroded as traditional industries contracted. These regional policies have been augmented by the European Union through the regional development fund. It is no surprise, therefore, that those of us who represent regions will, from time to time, look at government policy through the prism of regionalism to see whether our interests are being protected.
Early last year, I put down a Question for Short Debate which was eventually debated in Grand Committee on 15 November 2011. That debate covered the question of transport links between the regions and London. A number of noble Lords drew attention to the problems faced in different areas of the United Kingdom because of poor road or rail infrastructure. Aviation matters were also mentioned, as is pointed out in the briefing note prepared by the Library for this Bill today.
One of the principal requirements of a regional policy is to improve the competitiveness of a region. In order to do so, access is critical. This requires investment in infrastructure, which means having good communications by road, rail, air, sea and, in today’s world, broadband. The recently proposed acquisition of BMI airlines by BA has undoubtedly provoked interest in the matters we are about to debate. This has raised the wider question of the absence of any government powers to intervene in the trading of landing slots at Heathrow. This is a critical issue as far as I am concerned, as, unlike other European countries, the United Kingdom has only one hub airport. While I am not anticipating any immediate threat to important regional-to-Heathrow services, the fact remains that nobody can predict events. If a difficulty were to arise, the Government are powerless to act. I am entirely agnostic about the commercial take-over of BMI by the International Airlines Group, but I am concerned that the Government have no power to intervene.
As is the case in many policy areas, there is a significant European Union dimension to our deliberations. Aviation is a matter where we have ceded a competence to Brussels that is highly relevant to this Bill. Currently, EU Council Regulation EEC 95/93, as amended by Regulation EC 793/2004, provides a policy umbrella for the conduct of air connections between major hub airports and regions within member states. The preamble to the regulation states:
“Whereas it is necessary to make special provisions, under limited circumstances, for the maintenance of adequate domestic air services to regions of the Member State concerned”.
In practice, this means that if a national government believe that one of their regions is becoming isolated from another, they may apply to provide a public service obligation so that a subsidy can be paid to an airline to provide a connection between regions. This provision, however, does not allow for a PSO to be applied to a connection between two specific cities or between a region and a specific airport.
In the past few months, Brussels has been addressing a number of aviation issues. On 1 December 2011, the Commission produced an “airport package”, COM (2011) 827 final, which deals with a number of policy areas, landing and take-off slots being among them. On 19 December 2011, the European Parliament’s Committee on Transport and Tourism produced an own opinion draft report on the future of regional airports and air services in the EU, written by rapporteur Philip Bradbourn MEP. Paragraph 8 of that report states:
“considers it essential for regional airports to have access to hubs”.
That quotation from Mr Bradbourn’s draft report is the core rationale for this Bill.
On 29 February, I travelled to Brussels to have a series of meetings with members of the Transport and Tourism Committee of the European Parliament. I had a meeting with Philip Bradbourn, with other members of the committee, with our permanent representation in UKRep and, lastly, with the chairman of the committee, Brian Simpson MEP. During all my meetings there was great understanding of the UK’s specific issue and also considerable support for the proposals contained in this Bill.
What is our unique problem? Our specific problem in the UK is that we have only one major hub airport, Heathrow. Heathrow is operating at 98 to 99 per cent capacity. In other EU member states, where there is a connectivity problem with a hub airport, most of our continental partners have the opportunity to use spare capacity to add take-off and landing slots to accommodate connectivity between regions and hub airports but because of the lack of capacity at Heathrow that option is not open to the United Kingdom.
Furthermore, the slots at Heathrow are owned by individual airlines and if airlines should decide to sell their slots or use them for more profitable international routes, that, at present, is entirely a matter for them. The implications for UK regions of this could be profound. Our regions depend heavily on connectivity as a selling point and an incentive for inward investment and tourism, and adequate access to the national hub airport is essential. What a particular airline may say about its intentions is utterly irrelevant to this legislation, but even if an airline said it will keep a particular route open, it has the opportunity to reduce cycles and still maintain that it has kept its word.
As the landing and take-off slots in the UK are in private hands, any attempt to interfere in their free sale or transfer will lead to an interest being taken by the competition authorities in Brussels. To work effectively and to protect the regions’ access to Heathrow, the Bill gives the Secretary of State power to direct airport operators as well as requiring the Civil Aviation Authority to take these connectivity issues into account when exercising its functions. This may be deemed a power to ring-fence slots at Heathrow and that would have a knock on effect on their value. However, given the fact that Heathrow is operating at full capacity, there is simply no other way in the UK of guaranteeing adequate access from the regions to the hub.
I believe that our European partners will see the logic of this argument. It is, after all, consistent with the thrust of EU policy for many years to protect and promote the regions. As a former member of the EU Committee of the Regions, I know this to be a fact. Currently, the EU Committee on Transport and Tourism member Mr Giommaria Uggias of Italy is drafting a legislative report specifically on the slots issue and it is likely to be brought forward later this year.
This Bill is not region specific; it is a Bill that applies to the whole of the United Kingdom. Although I may come from Northern Ireland where the effects of inadequate air links to Heathrow would be felt most acutely, I am very aware that other regions could be badly affected as well. I have corresponded and spoken with a number of interested groups in Northern Ireland. I know that the Minister in the Northern Ireland Executive with responsibility for airports, Mr Danny Kennedy MLA, is supportive of ensuring adequate access. I believe that the relevant Assembly committee in Belfast takes a similar view. The Consumer Council for Northern Ireland approached me to offer support, and I have received letters from the local tourist board, the IoD, the CBI, Belfast City Airport and others.
Certainly a number of Scottish destinations, including Edinburgh, Glasgow, Aberdeen and Inverness, come to mind as well as cities in the north of England, such as Newcastle, Leeds and Manchester. Birmingham will eventually have the advantage of fast rail, and I know that plans are afoot to improve rail services to Cardiff. However, this still leaves the south-west somewhat isolated. In last week's edition of the Western Morning News, it said:
“Communications are the key to growth in the West Country”.
Some air links have been established with London City Airport, and Exeter is now a key gateway for the area connecting the West Country with Manchester. But the point remains that communications are the key to growth in the regions, and leaving the Government as a spectator, unable to intervene in the future if things go wrong with landing slots at Heathrow, is, I submit, unacceptable.
In conclusion, this Bill aims to amend the Airports Act 1986 to confer upon the Secretary of State the power to direct airport operators in the interests of ensuring sufficient national air infrastructure between hub and regional airports, and further, will ensure that the Civil Aviation Authority would also have to take into account the need to ensure adequate services between hub and regional airports when exercising its functions. I believe that these proposals are entirely consistent with current and previous government policies and are consistent with the intentions of the European Union’s policy, albeit that such policy would have to be modified to avoid a legal conflict with Brussels. The timing of this Bill sits neatly with the likely introduction of a UK aviation Bill later this year and, as previously stated, the European Commission already has proposals on the table for consultation.
The Minister, who I must thank for his assistance and that of his officials over recent weeks, knows that I fully realise that we have to act in concert with our European partners. He also acknowledges that currently HMG have no powers to address the specific problem of adequate access to Heathrow from the regions. Given these facts, and the proximity of our own domestic legislation coming through shortly, there is, I believe, a unique opportunity to deal with this issue in the immediate future. I trust that the Minister will give these proposals a fair hearing and a fair wind. I beg to move.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I can see the noble Lord, Lord Howell, in his place, hoping that I am going to go through a very detailed response to every speaker who has contributed this morning. I thank all who have contributed, because the debate has raised the fact that aviation issues in general are of great concern to many Members of the House. I hope that Members will forgive me for not dealing specifically with every contribution, but I want to raise a few points.
The noble Earl, Lord Caithness, as a former Aviation Minister, made a number of points about the commercial issues. Of course regional policy, which all Governments have followed since the 1950s, is by definition to some extent interfering with the market. If we did not interfere with the market to some extent, areas of this country would be laid waste. That is the practical reality. Why do we have the European regional development fund? Why do we have regional growth funds? All these things deliberately address a market failure. Aviation is no different. Although it would be nice to say, “Let us leave things and the market will fix it”, I assure noble Lords that the market will not fix it. At present, if you look at Heathrow, you see small regional aircraft parked that have a capacity of, may be, 34 passengers. They occupy one slot, whereas you have an A380 that may take 500 or 600 passengers for the same slot. Common sense dictates that it will not be long before someone in an airline somewhere works out that it is cheaper per head to land 600 people than 34 people.
The big issue economically, for me, is not specifically a Northern Ireland issue. I have tried to go out of my way not to make it a Northern Ireland issue. The issue is that at present, our Government, as they have conceded, have no power to intervene should the market decide to push the slots somewhere else; I got a very strong clue when the noble Lord, Lord McKenzie of Luton, got to his feet. Of course we welcome and enjoy the links with Luton, Stansted and so on, but we are talking about the narrower issue; my colleague, my noble friend Lord Rogan, made it very clear as a businessman himself that, if you do not have the international connections, businesspeople are not going to travel for hours between airports at great inconvenience to themselves to get to a region. It is a disincentive which goes against the grain of all the millions of pounds we pour into regional policy in this country year after year.
Given the time, I will perhaps not address the wider issues that the noble Lord, Lord Soley, and a number of other noble Lords addressed, although I have to say that we must have an answer to those questions. I come to the point about the European dimension to this. We have a unique opportunity because, by sheer coincidence, the European Union is addressing these matters in parallel with us. I fully understand what the Minister said. I have been out there. I believe we have the opportunity to make a strong case to the European Union. I believe we will have support out there—I know we have, certainly in the Parliament of the European Union. Although the Parliament is not the final decider in this case, I assure noble Lords that the growing influence of the Parliament over the Commission and in codecision-making in a number of areas will give us an opportunity in the coming months, as the year progresses, to negotiate with the European Union so that, ultimately, something like the Bill will be compatible with our European obligations. I understand the Minister’s position at present, and I do not seek to put us in conflict with our European partners. To coin a phrase that is a bit colloquial, I do not intend to go away on this issue, you know. The fact is that we have local interests to protect at home, but this is a UK issue.
I have to tell your Lordships about the destinations that are available. You can fly from Amsterdam to Belfast and, as the noble Lord, Lord Soley, made clear, to far more cities than you can from Heathrow. The commercial value of those slots is, I think, between £20 million and £30 million each. Common sense dictates that, unless Heathrow has extra capacity, ultimately the only way to protect access to it from the regions will be through some form of intervention. We do not have the power to do that at the moment and we would be in conflict with Europe if we did, but I think that there may be an opportunity to do so, particularly this year, as reports are being drafted in Brussels right now. I believe that we have the ear of the Parliament and many of the people associated with it, because they are working through the same process themselves.
I strongly believe that we are doing the right thing at the right time. It may not be perfect—I fully understand that it needs a lot more work—but, if we pull together and work with our European partners, I believe very strongly that we will be able to bring forward a series of proposals that will provide a guarantee for the future. Let us not get too hung up about the commercial deals before us today. It is the long term that we are trying to protect, and this will give us an opportunity to protect regional connectivity for the long term. All regional policy will fail if we do not have adequate connections.
Aviation: UK Civil Aviation
Lord Empey Excerpts(13 years, 5 months ago)
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Lord Empey
My Lords, I congratulate the noble Baroness, Lady Gibson, on securing this debate this evening. It is very timely.
First, I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Monks, about pilot fatigue. I have a son who is in that sector and his schedule over the past month frightened me. I have been in contact with the department on this issue for some months and I hope that when the EASA is considering this, it will not only follow much more closely the CAA guidelines but take into account the representations of the people who actually do this job, not the people who simply treat it as theory.
With regard to what the noble Baroness, Lady Kramer, said, I would say to her that it will be the Thames estuary or Heathrow. We are not going to get both because airlines are not going to split their bases, their engineering, their back-up and so on. I suspect that they will be either at one or the other.
Following on from my introducing the Airports (Amendment) Bill to this House in December 2011, I want to draw the attention of your Lordships to the connectivity issues that exist in the United Kingdom, and to ensure efficient communications between our major regions and cities. We debated this issue in Grand Committee on 15 November, and I believe that there is a lot of support in this House to draw attention to the fact that, if you do not have adequate connectivity, it is not going to be possible significantly to build up your business efficiency and attract investment to the regions.
It is no use saying, “We can fly you to an airport in the basic region of the south-east or in London”, which under European directions you can give a public service obligation to do. It has to be between the major cities in the region and the hub airport, wherever that may be. The issue for me at the moment is that my Bill would give the Government a power which they currently do not have: to ensure that the CAA can pass judgment. I hope to go to Brussels next month to see the chairman of the transport committee of the European Parliament and to lobby there, because there is a significant European dimension to this.
Like the noble Lord, Lord Soley, I had a hub airport in what was my constituency and I have had issues with it over its opening hours and various other things, but we all use it. The fact is that the issue is not only the airport itself; it is how that airport is connected to the major centres of population. Unless you can get from the regions to the major hub airport, which for the foreseeable future is Heathrow, then we are doing a disservice to our country. We put large amounts of money, as does the European Union, into regional development. One of the key issues there is aviation connectivity. In Northern Ireland, for instance, we do not have a realistic alternative. We do not have rail connections. Yes, we have a ferry, but, realistically, that is not going to do the job.
As we move forward, I hope that the Minister will give us some guidance as to whether the Government will seriously consider the regional connectivity issue in the forthcoming consultation and the legislation that will be before both Houses later this year.
Transport: London and the Regions
Lord Empey Excerpts(13 years, 7 months ago)
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Lord Empey
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have for improving transport links between London and the regions.
Lord Empey
My Lords, by coincidence a Question was asked in the Chamber earlier today which brought the issue of links between the regions and London very much to the fore. Perhaps I will take the opportunity to refer to that later. It is the case that for decades Governments have had regional development policies in place. Since the Second World War I believe that successive Governments have made it part of their policy to carry out works and to spend money on the development of the regions and their economies in order to bring prosperity to the entire country. One of the ways this was done—Europe did the same thing—was by putting into place meaningful infrastructure so that it was possible to get to and from particular regions. This is how our country has developed since the Industrial Revolution. We can go back to the canals and all sorts of developments; they were all about creating access to all sorts of centres of population from centres of production. The United Kingdom developed in this way over many decades.
We know that there are many proposals on the board for developing rail, the most obvious of which is the proposal to put in a high-speed rail link between Birmingham and London. There are other proposals for road development and for the east and west coast railways to be upgraded. All these things are part of the general infrastructure of our country. Indeed, the European Union through its regional development funds has provided significant amounts of money to improve infrastructure throughout the United Kingdom.
The debate I want to have now is on whether we are going to continue to ensure that the investment that successive Governments have made in trying to improve the economies of the regions is going to be sustained in these difficult times. It was clear from the Question this afternoon—and I found this from my experience in government as well—that when a business makes a decision about whether to expand, or an inward investor decides whether to come into a particular area, a key issue and one of the first things that they look for, after whether the relevant labour is there, is the infrastructure. Can they get goods, services and people in and out of a region quickly and effectively so that they can get worldwide access for their goods and services? Can they get executives, and of course the population in general, in and out? Now that we travel much more, one of the key considerations is whether, if you are in one of the regions, you have access to the major hubs, particularly air hubs. That way you can go on holiday or conduct your business as efficiently and effectively as possible.
There has been an enormous debate, particularly in the London area, over airports. We have things like Boris island being talked about and the proposal from Norman Foster for the Isle of Grain. There have been decisions from the Government and the Opposition not to proceed with the third runway at Heathrow. Therefore, air travel and traffic in general is the subject of extremely significant debate in this country at the present time. When the noble Earl replied earlier in the Chamber, he made the point, which I fully understand, that if you are looking at air route access from the regions for instance, there is potential for a public service obligation to get people from a region to the London area. However, from the evidence of the comments made around the Chamber this afternoon, we all know that that is not quite the issue.
The issue is very specific. Heathrow is the principal air hub in the United Kingdom and if you do not have meaningful access to Heathrow, you do not have meaningful access to other routes in and out of the UK. It is as simple as that. If you are going to market remote regions as places where people can do business, one of the first things they will look for is whether they can get to that place reasonably quickly, efficiently and cost-effectively. If you do not have access to your principal airport, that is likely to be a negative factor when an investment decision is being made.
My anxiety is this: as we know, in recent days British Midland International has come on the market and Lufthansa wants to sell it. There has been a bid from BA and we know that Virgin Atlantic is also interested. This has significance, not only for Northern Ireland, but for all our regions. I believe that earlier this year BMI removed its Glasgow service. I have no doubt that air routes, particularly for the Scottish Islands, Edinburgh, Glasgow, Newcastle, Manchester and Cardiff, are all vital. Therefore, how can we ensure that our regions will retain appropriate access to our principal airport at Heathrow, as long as it remains the principal hub?
It is not clear to me—and I would ask the Minister to respond to this at the end of this debate—how the Government can ensure that this access exists. I am afraid that it is not enough to leave it purely to commercial decisions, because everybody knows that landing slots at Heathrow and at other key airports are worth enormous sums of money. We are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds. It is also the case that airlines tend to make much more profit out of long-haul flights than from regional flights. It does not take a lot of imagination to see this. Indeed, the chief executive of the IAG group, Willie Walsh, has already indicated publicly that he would be looking at some of these slots for international use. Of course, Virgin Atlantic is an international carrier and not a domestic carrier. It therefore seems highly unlikely that, if it should become the owner of BMI, it would suddenly wish to take on and start producing a domestic service, when even its very name indicates that it is an international carrier.
It would seem that there is a genuine, clear and present threat to access of the key slots at Heathrow for the regions in general, and not simply for Northern Ireland. Northern Ireland’s case is more acute because we cannot get into our cars and drive directly to the south-east, nor can we get on a train to the south-east. We have either a ferry and a very long drive, or air access. To all intents and purposes, for meaningful business to be done, you need air access.
As was made clear in the House earlier, in many cases flights are exceptionally expensive if you want to get to the key hubs. I would say to the noble Earl that access to some of the peripheral airports in the London area might be fine for leisure customers and so on, but it is not suitable in all cases for the business customer. Anyone with anything to do with economic development will learn that access has to be as quick and as accessible as possible. It is therefore my intention to draw your Lordships’ attention to the critical importance of access as we move forward, and I would ask the noble Earl to address that in his response. I intend to take this matter further, if necessary through the route of a Private Member’s Bill, if the law is insufficient to allow the Secretary of State for Transport to have adequate direction powers over this matter. I feel strongly that we cannot sit back and simply wait until a crisis arises. We have to anticipate it and prevent it.
Earl Attlee
My Lords, I understand what the noble Lord is saying, but BMI has not been sold, and no services have been stopped yet. I think he is going ahead of himself slightly.
The noble Baroness, Lady Scott, asked about the Greater Anglia (Short) franchise and customer satisfaction. Although this is a relatively short franchise, she will recognise that Abellio has offered commitments that will improve customer experience. She also asked several other very detailed questions, and I fear that I will have to write to her on those points.
Abellio plans to continue to run all those services that are crowded today or are likely to become crowded in the next five years in the formation planned by NXEA. In almost all cases where crowding occurs today, the trains concerned are being operated at the maximum formation allowed by the infrastructure, so it is an infrastructure limitation, not a rolling stock limitation.
Finally, the noble Lord, Lord Empey, touched on the Thames estuary airport. We welcome the input from the mayor and Lord Foster, and their suggestions will be considered alongside the many other contributions about our future aviation policy. However, such a project would be hugely complex. Detailed consideration would be needed on a range of issues, including airspace capacity, safety and access to the airport as well as costs and funding.
Lord Empey
I know that my colleague in Northern Ireland, the Transport Minister Danny Kennedy, has been to the European Parliament and spoken to the chair of its transport committee, who in turn has spoken to Lufthansa about the slot issue. This is a pertinent issue. I understand the legal difficulties the Minister is in, but perhaps it is something that with co-operation between Brussels and ourselves we have in our own hands to resolve.
Earl Attlee
I am sure that noble Lords will keep a very close eye on this issue.
The noble Lord, Lord Empey, suggested that he would return to this matter on a future occasion, and I look forward to all such debates. In conclusion, I thank him for this short debate and for all his efforts in encouraging improved transport links between London, the regions and Northern Ireland.
Localism Bill
Lord Empey Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Lord Empey
My Lords, I wanted to speak briefly to Amendment 110 and to make a few other comments, but it would be a brave Ulsterman who would take on the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, on a Welsh amendment. However, I assure him that I want merely to talk about the principle here. Although the Bill does not apply specifically to Northern Ireland, the Northern Ireland Local Government Association has asked me to raise some matters of principle, because if the principle is established in the Bill that local authorities will or could be liable for EU fines, sooner or later it will have national significance. While some EU directives may often have specific geographical implications, others have wider national implications.
I do not have a problem with the principle that the polluter pays, but it has to be understood that local government throughout the United Kingdom is not a universal picture. Local authorities in Northern Ireland have far fewer powers than those in the rest of the United Kingdom. They also raise most of their own money—more than 80 per cent—by rates. Consequently, they do not have a large central government grant, as is the case in England. Therefore, it is not possible for the Government simply to reduce the grant that local authorities in Northern Ireland receive in order to take the money off them, because they do not get it in the first place. If you impose a fine on a Northern Ireland local authority, you impose it directly on the ratepayer. That has to be understood.
The other matter is that the powers of local councils vary considerably. The Department of the Environment in Northern Ireland is largely responsible for local government, but other groups and public bodies will perhaps share policy implementation with local councils. Air and water pollution have been talked about. Local councils obviously have or could have an environmental health role in this, but other public bodies might be responsible for other aspects, including water pollution, sewage and so on.
The Northern Ireland Local Government Association, in consultation with other local government bodies, including the LGA, has expressed concern—not only because they have not been consulted about the measures, but because, although the Bill does not directly affect them at present, they believe that sooner or later it will. That is because EU fines have a national implication, as well as a local one. It was, I think, the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, who said that he was not aware that EU fines had started to be imposed. I can assure him that they have, because I know, at home, our Department of Agriculture is being fined very heavily over issues concerning mapping. Grants were being distributed on the basis of maps, and now we have armies of planners who, as a result of not having much to do during the recession, are poring over aerial maps, because in the designation of fields, the boundaries of areas of rough ground may have become unclear. Brussels is now saying that people have been double claiming and doing all sorts of things. I can assure the noble Lord that fines are being imposed, exemplary damages are being applied, and the fines are vastly in excess of the amount of money that may have been inappropriately spent or given to a particular claimant. The Government are being fined millions of pounds above that. We are talking about substantial issues.
Lord Berkeley
I should like to say that it was not me who suggested that the British Government had not been fined.
Lord Empey
I beg your pardon; I may have picked up a comment from someone else.
When the Government are finalising what they are going to do on this issue, they need to take into account the significant regional disparities. One understands that the Government are trying to establish the point that the polluter pays. However, the big issue with all this is that we send representatives to Brussels—and I do not know whether the late-night hospitality and the all-night sessions are to blame—decisions can be forced through at 4 am and our representatives keep putting their hands up to approve them. Then, five or six years later, they blame Brussels for enforcing those decisions when it is they who have agreed to them. I have to say: beware the late-night hospitality. We should pick representatives who are good at doing this at night. In a negotiation, I fear that the officials will know full well that a certain Minister has to get away to an event somewhere else, perhaps at 1 pm the following day, and know that if they push for a decision at 3 am or 4 am, the Minister will put their hands up and agree to anything. I seriously suggest that we be careful what we agree to, because it comes back to haunt us many years later.
I accept that the provision in the Bill does not apply to Northern Ireland, and it is not entirely clear as to whether it applies even to Wales. The Minister may answer that this is an England-only Bill, but while local government is a reserved or devolved matter in certain areas, EU fines are, of course, a national issue or a reserved matter. The interface where these issues collide is not entirely clear to me, and I sincerely hope that the noble Baroness will take this into account when she replies.
Lord Newton of Braintree
My Lords, it is probably rash of me to intervene in a debate that has so far been dominated largely by great gurus of local government, another of whom is yet to speak. However, it must have become obvious, at least to my Front Bench, that I am one of those who become more rash, rather than more cautious, as the years advance. I have endlessly declared my wife as an interest, in respect of Braintree District Council. I hasten to add that she has not told me to say anything about this issue. The council is well conducted—and I say that not just because she told me that. However, I support the noble Lord, Lord Tope, and say that the concern is confined not just to his Benches. That has admirably been made clear, but having geared myself up to speak, I decided that I would do so—albeit very briefly.
First, the noble Lord, Lord Tope, was right to say that this issue should have been discussed with local authorities, not just bounced out with the publication of the Bill. Secondly, I have every sympathy with what my noble friend Lord Jenkin said—whether or not something like this survives, the Secretary of State should not be judge, jury, prosecutor and executioner. That leads to my interest in some of the amendments in the group, including that of my noble friend Lady Gardner of Parkes. I noted that the noble Lord, Lord Best, who knows as much about all this as anyone, said—although he did not use this phrase—that the Government were opening a can of worms. The whole of the rest of the debate has demonstrated that it is indeed a can of worms, not least in the speeches of my noble friend Lord Cathcart and the noble Lord, Lord Empey. It may be too late to put the lid back on it, but my noble friends ought to contemplate whether they can squeeze it down a bit or at least make it a more palatable lot of worms.
I do not have much more to say, but I have two questions that link with the points made in recent speeches. I want to put them very directly. First, as was initially raised in uncertain terms by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, just where does this stand in relation to the devolved Administrations? Since the noble Lord spoke, I have checked Clause 213 on the extent of the Bill. If I read that correctly, this lot does extend to Wales; but it does not extend to Scotland and, as we have just heard, it does not extend to Northern Ireland. Therefore a fine from the European Union would be imposed on the United Kingdom Government. We are the members of the European Union, not Scotland, even if it would like to be, or Wales, even if it would like to be, or Northern Ireland—I do not know whether it would or not. That means that in certain circumstances the United Kingdom Government could be fined, but if the fine related to a local authority in Scotland, the European Union could do nothing about it. Only an English council could have a knock-on fine under these proposals. If I got that wrong, I would be glad to be told; but that appears to me to be the meaning of the Bill and I do not think it is satisfactory.
Secondly, as was touched on by my noble friend Lord Cathcart, is this or is this not retrospective? I could just about understand it if councils knew what they were getting into when they made a decision that might lead to this risk. However, unless I have read the Bill wrongly, this is a backward-looking proposal. A fine could be imposed that related to something that had already happened, in circumstances in which a local authority had no reason to suppose that there would be a penalty. Most of us would regard that situation as deeply unsatisfactory, and I do not regard it as satisfactory on anything that I have heard today.
From what the noble Lord, Lord Best, said the other day, we know that this clause was one of the top three targets of the Local Government Association, which is why he is here today, no doubt. He was very kind, and rightly so, to my noble friend Lady Hanham on the Front Bench for having been so conciliatory on its other two main targets—one was the issue of mayors, the other I cannot remember. I urge my noble friend to be conciliatory on this one as well.
Postal Services Bill
Lord Empey Excerpts(14 years, 2 months ago)
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Lord Empey
My Lords, I should like to speak briefly. I am sure that the Minister in her response will argue that the amendment is not required because the main purpose of the Bill is to ensure the survival of the universal service obligation. However, the amendment indicates the level of concern in rural and remote areas that somehow, once the service is passed into the hands of the private sector, other things may happen. I hope that the Minister will again attempt to allay those concerns, which I know are real.
I said in my previous remarks in this House that many people regard the Royal Mail as a piece of national infrastructure. It is in that context that people, particularly those in remote areas who are already disadvantaged, fear—perhaps irrationally, but I nevertheless assure the noble Baroness that their fears are genuine—that somehow, despite the intentions of the Bill, things will ultimately change. I hope that that is not the case, but perhaps I may assure her that these concerns are genuine, and I hope that in her response she can give comfort to those of us who have these anxieties.
Lord Whitty
My Lords, I support the amendment in the names of the noble Lords, Lord Rogan and Lord Laird. The Minister will be well aware of my past engagement with Consumer Focus, the statutory body for postal services, which operates as separate entities in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales. It has become apparent, when assessing the needs of domestic consumers of postal services and post offices, and also those of small businesses in using those services, that there are somewhat different considerations relating to the firm commitment to the network and the universal service, particularly in rural areas and in those countries.
In Northern Ireland, there are particular issues relating to the north and the south, to An Post, and to getting mail across the sea. While preserving the universal service, the body of the post office and the body of Royal Mail as parts of our United Kingdom national infrastructure, it is important that we recognise that any dilution of the service or differential treatment of the parts of the United Kingdom would be particularly detrimental to those countries. It is therefore important that the devolved Administrations are fully involved in any changes.
Perhaps I may gently say to the noble Baroness that it has been obvious that her department in Whitehall has not always been the best when consulting devolved Administrations on a whole range of issues, including this one. The department is getting better, but acceptance of at least the principle of the amendment would be appreciated and would help the Government’s approach. It would meet the fears of many businesses and individuals in those countries, particularly in rural areas and small towns.
Postal Services Bill
Lord Empey Excerpts(14 years, 3 months ago)
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Lord Touhig
The noble Lord suggested that people were not telling the truth. I do not know where he has been this evening—perhaps he has had a very good dinner. However, it is quite improper without any evidence to suggest that either I or the noble Lord, Lord Low—he followed both of us—were not telling the truth.
Lord Empey
My Lords, I do not wish to get involved in this particular exchange, but I declare an interest as a Member of the Northern Ireland Assembly.
The point that the noble Lord, Lord McAvoy, makes is valid. Like it or not, people who are furthest away from the centre in any country feel—rightly or wrongly—that whenever there is an economic contraction it comes from the outer areas and goes to the centre. That is not exactly a surprise. I hope that in her response the Minister will be able to reassure people in the regions.
I took the opportunity to make my maiden speech on this Bill at an earlier stage because I regard this service as a fundamental piece of national infrastructure. It is just as important to people as railways, air links, or whatever. It is not only a vital service for individuals. We must remember that we spend large amounts of money pushing rural development. That has not only a European but a national dimension; we spend a lot of money and time trying to develop rural businesses. One of the principal mechanisms that they have to distribute their products is the Royal Mail.
I fully understand that people feel the risk, whenever there is a contracting situation, that people at the outer edges will be disadvantaged. I hope that the Minister will be able to reassure us. I have no difficulty with the regional Administrations being consulted; that makes sense. We are trying to have a balance: not to impose a whole lot of conditions on the sale that make it less likely to happen at a good price for the taxpayer but at the same time to ensure that people in less central areas—let us face it, that applies to areas of England as well as to Scotland and Wales—feel that their interests are being taken seriously into account at the core. I hope that the Minister can reassure the House that, when it comes to consultation on the matter, those interests will be taken firmly into account.