Building Safety Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Report stage
Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

I was under the impression that this was grouped with a whole group of amendments that had been debated and therefore there was no need for a further debate. If I am wrong, of course I apologise.

[The Deputy Speaker (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

I will take the blame for that. I should have said moved formally and that would have encouraged the noble Lord, Lord Greenhalgh, to say “moved formally”. I will accept the admonition on that point. The noble Lord has saved the House some considerable time because I can see the page of that speech now fluttering in the wind.

Environment Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Committee stage
Wednesday 30th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, it is a delight to follow my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, who is in many ways the embodiment of wisdom in your Lordships’ House. How good it is to have him back with us and speaking as vigorously and to the point as he always does.

I cannot begin to rival the expertise or knowledge of the noble and learned Lords who have spoken, but shall give my noble friend the Minister a secular analogy. When we enter this Chamber from the Prince’s Chamber, we have in front of us that great classical sculpture by John Gibson of Queen Victoria. It is flanked on either side by the figures of Justice and Mercy. The figure of Justice holds in her hands, as the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, reminded us earlier, the sword and the scales.

Would my noble friend Lord Goldsmith seriously think, as he entered the Chamber, of removing that sword and those scales? Because that, metaphorically, is what he is proposing to do this afternoon if he does not accept the spirit of these amendments. It is palpably absurd—I refer to the interesting contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Rooker—to have an Environment Bill that has as one of its slogans, “The polluter need not pay”. It is absurd. Can my noble friend not recognise that absurdity?

I have said before in these debates that it is essential that an environmental Bill should command the support of Members in all parts of your Lordships’ House, particularly one that is meant to stand the test of not just some time but generations. We cannot have a Bill enacted that, in effect, does what my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay has just said and contradicts one of the fundamentals of English law.

I hope that my noble friend Lord Goldsmith will do what I urged him to do when speaking to an amendment on Monday. I said that because it was so important that the Bill should command the support of your Lordships in all parts of the House, he should convene some sort of round table and talk to us all. There is an answer to all these conundrums and problems that we are highlighting, because we all support the basic premise of the Bill. However, if we support that premise and intention, we cannot allow the Bill to go on to the statute book so fundamentally flawed as it is at the moment. So I say to him again, “Please talk to those of us who wish you well, who wish the Bill well, but who can never lend support on Report to a Bill that is so riddled with absurdity”.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank (Con)]

My Lords, I begin by drawing attention to my interests in the register, notably the chairmanship of the National Forest.

I was pleased to put my name to Amendments 105 to 108, because they are necessary and they make the Bill better. We have heard echoed by a number of noble Lords how that can be achieved and I hope that the Government hear that. In many ways, this clause is like a Monet painting. It looks fine from a distance, but the closer you get the more the detail seems to disappear. What we need now is clarity and for that detail to be recognisable. Non-compliance must affect validity. That is a simple statement of fact. The beneficiary of an environmental deterrent or damage cannot escape sanction because he is materially affected by the sanction. That cannot be a useful way of moving forward. The remedies available must be a deterrent. If they are not, the system will be gamed. Individuals will find ways through, between and under, and they will be able to make a mockery of what should be a very important institution.

The OEP is a successor to a body that was able by its threats to bring about fundamental change in how environmental laws were enforced—and it made the environment better, safer and healthier by doing that. The successor body must be able to do the same and have available to it each of the elements that can allow it to achieve that outcome. That is why I was very pleased to put my name to these amendments.

Greenhouse Gas Emissions

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 5th February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

There are three elements to that. The first is that we need to decarbonise domestic heating, which is a real challenge. Most people still heat their homes by gas; I include myself. We need to make a choice between electricity or a potential hydrogen hybrid. The second element is that we must try to be more efficient in the way that we use our electricity. Finally, on the question of who will ultimately pay for this, I am afraid that there is no easy answer. Ultimately, it will be the people of Great Britain. We need to recognise that, to ensure that those affected by fuel poverty do not bear the brunt of the costs.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, can my noble friend assure the House that the devolved Administrations will be officially represented at the conference in Glasgow? Can he also give us some idea of when a chairman will be designated? My noble friend would be an admirable candidate, as would my noble friend Lord Goldsmith.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

We await the call. Who knows? My noble friend is right to ask when there will be a new COP chairman. I suspect that the Prime Minister will look at that as part of the wider re-examination of Government. Our relationships with the devolved Administrations are absolutely vital, as is our relationship with the great city of Glasgow itself. It is a great city in which to conduct this climate change conference.

Northern Ireland Executive Formation

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 16th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Baroness is absolutely right. There are lessons to be learned for this Government and for the parties in Northern Ireland; indeed, some of them are quite hard lessons. It is the people of Northern Ireland who often make the judgment, as they have done in elections gone by.

I am aware that this process is at a very delicate stage. It is almost like the stage when you see the first green shoots of your seeds coming through and you think that you have a harvest, but that is actually when you need to tend to them most carefully. We must all do that now to ensure that we reap the harvest of what we have achieved over the past few days. I am aware that each party will now be judged on how it tends the crop before we reach the harvest.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I congratulate my noble friend warmly. Does he acknowledge that some important unfinished business has been taken forward in your Lordships’ House in the absence of the Executive? In particular, I refer to what I call the Hain initiative on providing proper compensation for those who suffered so much during the years of anguish and trouble. Can he assure the House that there will be no further impediment to implementing those measures?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend is right to raise this issue. He will recall, as I am sure other noble Lords will, that the legislation we took forward before Christmas was taken forward by this House and this Government. It was not dependent on the outcome of a new Executive. As a consequence, it will continue to the timetable that we set. I believe—again, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Hain, for his work on this—that the compensation for victims should be in place no later than May this year. That is something to be welcomed by all in the newly reformed Executive, I hope.

Thomas Cook

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 5th November 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is right that there are issues around more than just the component parts of the holiday because, as an entity, Thomas Cook is not just a single company. It has different named brands that sit underneath that name. The important thing for us here is that this will be through those who have booked a holiday with Thomas Cook, and have experienced severe injury and so forth as a consequence of that booking. In many instances, these are historic payments that will be halted because of the situation. They are not ongoing future payments, although some fit into that category. What is important here is that the manner in which Thomas Cook sought to address those questions will have been part of the initial settlement that Thomas Cook reached. The question we are then taking on is: how do we compensate and match a measure of the liability that was experienced? It will be done through the criteria that we set in primary legislation, which we will afford your Lordships an opportunity to examine in greater detail.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Is my noble friend aware that we will take great encouragement from the fact that he is involved in helping to solve this very difficult problem? We are all grateful to him for the way in which he led on the Northern Ireland Bill, which has just gone through the other place and is now the law of the land. He has shown commendable leadership and initiative. We have been glad to give him support and I hope that he will be reassured that we want to do the same for the expeditious legislation that will be necessary at the beginning of the new Parliament.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is very kind and generous. A number of your Lordships were involved in the Bill on historical institutional abuse. It is now the law of the land, and we can all take heart from that. I will be as diligent in this regard as I can be and will do all I can in the new Parliament, if I am spared, to do this.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019: Section 3(5)

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, these reports every fortnight give us an opportunity to touch on some of the bigger issues facing Northern Ireland. I will try to take on some of the specific issues raised today.

I will begin with the noble Baroness, Lady Lister. She raised very important points. We must speak very clearly on this. I have been told by my officials that the absence of Northern Ireland Ministers does not prevent a senior officer of a Northern Ireland department exercising a function of the department during the period of forming an Executive if the officer is satisfied that it is in the public interest to do so. If it is in the public interest to exercise that during the period, we must make sure that there is no diminution of that during that period. I will confirm that in writing to the noble Baroness.

A question was asked about whether these reports will continue. To be honest, I am not sure about that myself in terms of what is happening in the other place, but if we do indeed enter into purdah there will be no Parliament here to debate the reports, so the reporting function would be in abeyance. However, I would instruct my officials that we will continue to draft such reports so that they might be available for a continuing or incoming Government, regardless of what happens next. It is important that this information is still actively gathered together.

The noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, asked about the founding of a university in Derry/Londonderry. The answer, in truth, is that it rests with the institution itself to put forward the case. To date, none has done so. If the university is indeed in such a position it should do just that and put together its case to initiate the proceedings, because nothing can happen until that has been completed. It is a matter of devolved authority but, none the less, the first step will necessarily be taking forward the examination of the business case for the initiation of the establishment of a university. If he were able to facilitate, I would be very happy to sit with the institution and discuss this further. I know that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has already sat and discussed with it. I am not privy to that conversation but, if it was not on that point, I am very happy to initiate and have that very clear discussion with that institution if we can.

I will touch on the larger question that rests here today on the formation of an Executive. I am always drawn to the remarks of the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames, on these matters. As some noble Lords will be aware, I am also a fan of poetry from Ireland:

“Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;


… everywhere

The ceremony of innocence is drowned”.

Those noble Lords who know their Yeats will know the bit I missed out. I had to check the exact words, because I always remember the part I read out. The rest of it says:

“Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,


The blood-dimmed tide is loosed”.

That is what it means if we get this wrong; the bit I left out is the problem. It is easy to talk about the other bits; it is the bit in the middle that causes us the problem. This is where it becomes very difficult, because I am running out of words to say that no stone shall be left unturned. I am out of clichés about what is going on in Northern Ireland and I want to stop using them.

It is critical that the parties in Northern Ireland come together. If they do not, then in the new year there will need to be an election. I do not know what the result will be. I have no crystal ball. My fear is that it will lead us to where we are now, and thereafter we will take that journey down the path down towards direct rule, spoken of by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. As the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has said on more than one occasion, once we enter direct rule, we do not get out of it. I think that the truth is that the people of Northern Ireland are crying out for change, whether it be in health, education or welfare. They are crying out and no one is hearing them. It is a silent cry for change to come.

I cannot make the parties do more than they are doing. The question has been asked: what is the Prime Minister doing? The Prime Minister met the parties in July. However, there is no point in equivocating around the truth that we sit in the fog of Brexit. I make no excuses for that, and I make no explanations around that. That is where we are: becalmed in the fog of Brexit, waiting for the winds of change to pick up and take our vessel towards that promised land which will be change in Northern Ireland. Yet here we wait. We listen to the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Empey, about the situation with health in Northern Ireland, and are reminded of exactly what it means to get this wrong. We cannot be becalmed and wait for this to pass. That is the shocking and sad thing about it.

I take a slight issue with the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy. There is a structure to the talks. We have brought in independent facilitators—although not an overarching, high-profile one—to bring the parties to that point from which we believe that the next step can be taken. If I could quantify it in a meaningful way, I would say that we are 95% there but, like jumping over a chasm, 95% does not get you to the other side. It is that magic 5% that needs to be met, and it rests in the areas with which I am sure noble Lords are very familiar: rights, culture and language, issues which can unite us. The poetry of language can bring us together, yet it can divide us strongly as well. This is the part that remains undone—that remains to be stitched together. If we can find that compromise and way forward on the language matter—it seems in some respects so close, and would be so joyous to get right for all of Northern Ireland—the issues that have been stacking up could be addressed one by one. The greatest danger for an incoming Executive just now is too much to do and too little time. What shall the priorities for Northern Ireland be? How shall we try to establish whether it should be welfare, education or whatever else? Some of these issues have been left waiting to be taken forward not just since the downfall of the last Executive, but for decades preceding it.

I could go on in this regard, but I will not. I do not think that would be useful at this time. I wish I could say that when I come back here, those parties will have found a way forward. However, I do not think that I am going to be doing that in a fortnight’s time, I am sad to say. There may be other reasons why I do not return here in two weeks’ time; I am afraid that I do not know about that either. However, I believe that these reports are invaluable. They have provided us with a platform on which to have this serious debate. I hope that they are heard and listened to in Northern Ireland. I hope that the parties recognise them for what they are: a cry for something to be done, for change to come, for something to be resolved and for the Northern—

[Lord Cormack]

My noble friend made a helpful remark earlier. Will he discuss with the Secretary of State and the Prime Minister the question of the Prime Minister meeting Members of the Assembly and talking to them in Stormont?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I do not get to meet the Prime Minister as often as I would like to, I am afraid, but I am very happy, on the next occasion when we do meet, to raise this matter. I do not believe that one can claim to be the Minister for the Union without ensuring that one is doing all that one can to hold that union together. I will make that point very strongly when I next have an audience with the Prime Minister. I suspect that will not be for a little while but, none the less, when I have that opportunity, I will.

I commend these reports. I believe that they serve a purpose and will continue to do so. I hope that there will come a point when we can look back on them as having provided the foundation for the necessary restoration of a sustainable Executive.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Government

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Monday 28th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Regarding hyponatraemia, I will, as I have said before, commit to working to deliver against that—it is long overdue. As to the question of the commitment of my right honourable friend the Prime Minister, he is absolutely committed, but right now the person taking the lead on that is the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. He has redoubled his efforts to bring the parties back to the table. That they have not done so remains a disappointment for him and for the people of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

No doubt my noble friend knows that progress has been made when Prime Ministers—Sir John Major, Tony Blair and Gordon Brown—have become involved. Why does the Prime Minister not go to Northern Ireland and invite all Members of the Assembly, duly elected and still being paid, to Stormont to talk to him about these things?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

When I next meet the Prime Minister, I will take the point raised by my noble friend and hopefully we can start a discussion about it.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 15th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord takes me into even deeper waters—and we are only in the first half hour of what may well be a long day. I understand the point he makes, of course; I appreciate exactly what he is saying. But that may be a discussion for another time. If he will allow me, I shall return to the amendment in hand.

With some regret, I say to my noble friend Lord Cormack that I hope he will understand that I am asking him to withdraw the amendment, not because it is not necessary to have time, but because we need to balance out that time—the carrot—with the stick of a deadline. We need to make sure that we are making progress to allow for the necessary secondary steps—an election to take place and so forth—in good time. Otherwise we will reach ever more frequent deadlines and anniversaries relating to the absence of an Executive in Northern Ireland, which the people of Northern Ireland can, unfortunately, little bear.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I always listen carefully to what my noble friend says, but on this occasion I have to say that I believe he is making a mistake. The calendar is such that, as the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, pointed out, we are in the holiday season already in Northern Ireland, and we are about to enter a period of recess in this Parliament. We also have the looming Brexit date. Most importantly, elements have been injected into the Bill in the other place—we will be dealing with them later today—which create a much more difficult Bill and a much more difficult situation in Northern Ireland. These are highly sensitive and difficult issues. The very future of devolution as a concept is at stake. I believe that the dates that I suggest in my amendments would create a much more realistic timetable.

I am one of those who believe in the convention—it is certainly not a rule—that one does not normally vote in Committee in this House. In moving amendments I have always honoured that convention, and I will do so again today. However, I cannot promise that I will not return to this issue on Report in 48 hours’ time, when colleagues will have had the chance perhaps to reflect on the totality of today’s debate. I think they will then realise that a part of the United Kingdom that needs handling with acute sensitivity and that does not willingly respond to the deadline philosophy perhaps ought to be given a little more time. For the moment, though, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Baroness almost got me on that one, but she will not be surprised to know that I, too, will not be drawn on those matters. It is important, as we circle back to where we began—

[Lord Cormack]

Does my noble friend the Minister agree that it is always right that the Government should be accountable to Parliament and not the other way around, and that Parliament should never be the creature of government?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

It would be easy to answer that in a simple way, but I suspect that tucked inside the question is a matter for greater constitutional scholars than I. I stand before noble Lords not, I am afraid, as a lawyer but as a humble geologist. I therefore feel ill-equipped to answer a question of that august nature.

In returning to the point before us, I say that this is not the right way to achieve these ends. The other place has spoken on these matters. It has spoken in a voice which we have heard on other issues and should hear today. I would ask that these amendments should not be pressed. I do not believe that they give comfort to the ongoing talks in Northern Ireland, and nor do they progress the important aspects for which those talks have been set up.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am loath to use the term “ruling” on this one, if I may be frank. I understand the noble Lord to be correct; the Sewel convention allows for not acting under normal circumstances, but by any definition the situation that Northern Ireland finds itself in today is not normal. However, I would not like that to carry with it the weight of greater minds than I. I may have to put a very formal note to your Lordships later to confirm that, just in case I am in any way in error.

On that basis, I ask the noble Lord to withdraw the amendment.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, this has been a long and, at times, a difficult debate. When I introduced the amendments, with the support of my noble friend Lord Trimble—who has had to go to another engagement —and, in the case of the abortion amendment, the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, I said that this was an extremely sensitive and delicate subject, and the Leader of the Opposition the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, referred to that. I think that every word that has been uttered has at least underlined that I was correct on that.

The only thing I regret is that some people, perhaps because they felt hurt, have reacted in a slightly unfair way. Noble Lords must remember that my noble friend Lord Trimble, who supported both these amendments, is a man who perhaps has done more than any other individual in Northern Ireland to bring about the Good Friday agreement and serve his part of our great United Kingdom and his country with diligence and honour, and he is the last man who would be insensitive in these issues. Indeed, at Second Reading, he referred in a slightly jocular way to his own family experience of a daughter marrying another woman. When I was chairman of the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee in the other place, I had a great deal to do with the noble Baroness, Lady O’ Loan, who was then the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland. She is a great public servant, and it was an honour to deal with her. I met nobody at any stage in Northern Ireland who was more fair, more dispassionate or more concerned about the fate of those who had suffered in the Troubles. She was even-handed, almost to a fault. I was sad when I heard what the noble Baroness, Lady Boycott, said. It would be sad to believe that anyone who has spoken in this debate has done so with anything other than a passionate sincerity and belief.

When I introduced the two amendments, I began by saying that I was doing so for one reason only. It is nothing to do with my views on either of these subjects but because I have a very passionate view about Northern Ireland and the need to restore devolution. It was because of that that I tabled these amendments, which have received some support and some opposition. I am grateful to those who supported and I completely understand the deep feelings of those who have opposed them but, I repeat, the only reason I introduced these amendments is that I see devolution slipping away. I made the point at Second Reading that I see that we are moving inexorably towards direct rule, and I deeply regret that. I hope that, when those in Northern Ireland read this debate, they will realise—to quote again a current catchphrase—it is time for them to take back control. We need a Northern Ireland Assembly and Executive. I hope that what has been said collectively in this debate, from all sides of the argument, will convince people in all parties in Northern Ireland that they will be guilty of a dereliction of duty if they do not take back control.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 10th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The thing to note is that these have now been voted on by the other place in a significant number. The majority is there. They will move forward in this way. We in this House cannot look to the other place and seek to undermine or strip out these particular parts; that would be a mistake of some significance.

[Lord Cormack]

I apologise for intervening, but is not a way forward to extend the dates in this Bill so that, instead of having 21 October, we have 13 January, and instead of having 13 January, we have 10 April? If we have a more realistic timetable, is it not then possible that we can enable the Assembly to come together, the Executive to be formed and, therefore, enable this House and the other place not to impose their will upon Northern Ireland?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend, as always, provides a very sensitive approach. I have a suspicion that there will be a number of amendments tabled over the course of the next few days, which may well, indeed, reflect the very point my noble friend raises. I suspect we will know more when we are able to see what they are. That will provide us with the perfect opportunity then to try to address these things as best as we can in moving it forward.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

To be frank, it is almost the sole purpose of this House to take those matters which come from the other place to ensure they can be revised in a manner which is appropriate, particularly in light of legal realities. That is our responsibility, and we would be derelict were we not to do that, if we were aware of deficiencies in the law. That is our role.

I am conscious, as I try to draw these remarks to a close, that some other things need to be mentioned. I am aware of the issue of the victims’ pensions—the noble Lord, Lord Hain, is of course not in his place. We have been working together to establish how we can make some progress on this. A noble Lord asked: can it be so—that there is a prospect of terrorists themselves receiving benefits through this? The answer is no. If the harm came by their own hand, they would be precluded from any attempt to provide a pension, for very clear and obvious reasons.

The noble Lord, Lord Dubs, asked about refugees in Northern Ireland. We have had a meeting on this very point and I am looking again to the noble Lord to work with me on this matter. The challenge we experienced at the time was that the number of suitable recipient families, as judged by the Northern Ireland Civil Service, was not adequate for the purpose; the noble Lord may recall that discussion. I am very happy to continue that dialogue to see how we can make some progress and will be happy to commit again to meet with the noble Lord to do that very thing if he is amenable to it.

I appreciate that the notion of historical abuse, raised by the noble Lords, Lord Bruce and Lord Empey, remains a very important issue, and it is important. They will be aware, as I have said before, that the challenge we face is that if the Hart recommendations had simply been left as they were, we could have moved forward. However, those recommendations were then passed on to the parties in Northern Ireland, which have had engagement with and made some fairly significant changes to the initial recommendations. It will take time for those to progress towards a legislative basis upon which progress could be made. I would hope that it can be expedited but I am not clear about the timescale. It is not being delayed; it is now simply a question of it being drafted in the appropriate way to reflect the parties in Northern Ireland.

I am aware of the legacy issues and I note that in raising this matter the noble Lord, Lord Empey, suggested that they had not been front and centre in the talks that have gone on thus far. It is a challenging issue and the Government recognise their responsibility in this area. They would be derelict if they were in any way to abandon these issues. We will need to find a resolution as we progress in some way. Whether they form part of the discussions and talks remains to be seen.

I do not believe that I can bring to a satisfactory conclusion the nature of today’s debate. It is not in my gift or the gift of any us. We now have a number of serious issues before us and shall on Monday have ample opportunity, I hope, to engage directly with the amendments as they are presented to facilitate the proper debate that we in this House can deliver. Out of that will emerge, I hope, a wider consideration and appreciation of the reality which we face. Out if it will emerge the next stage, which will take place on the Wednesday of the following week as well. I hope through those stages to be available to your Lordships if there is a need for discussion. I remain open to that discussion in all fashions, so if noble Lords need to reach out I am happy to work with them. I note again to the noble Baroness, Lady O’Loan, that I am happy to sit down at an appropriate time and engage directly with this.

[Lord Cormack]

My noble friend just referred to the week after next. I thought that we were having Report next week.

Northern Ireland: Trauma Victims

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 27th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

As one of those who has met with my noble friend the Minister, I add my tributes for his hard work. Does he accept, however, that many of those who should have benefited have already died? Others will die in the course of this year. Speed really is of the essence. It will be important to get something through, if not by the end of July, certainly in the September sitting.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend makes an important point. He reminds us again that one of the issues drawn to our attention by the victims’ commissioner is how pension rights should be transferred in the sad situation where a victim has passed on. We must get that right as well, to ensure satisfaction for all affected—not only the victims but victims’ families. We will do all we can to move this matter forward.

Northern Ireland: Inter-party Talks

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 20th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord raises a question to which I do not have the answer, but when I have it I will ensure that he and the rest of the House know exactly when the report will be published.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, we have repeatedly raised two points in your Lordships’ House. First, could we not have the Assembly summoned? There is nothing to prevent the Assembly meeting without an Executive. My noble friend Lord Trimble has raised this on a number of occasions. Secondly, could we please have some progress on the appointment of a so-called facilitator? It has gone on for month after month. I pay tribute to my noble friend, but speed is of the essence and we are not seeing any speed.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend raises points he has raised in the past. It is important to stress that we are witnessing, I hope, a progressive step, out of which will emerge resolution of the issues that both he and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland passionately care about.

Northern Ireland: Historical Institutional Abuse Inquiry

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 13th June 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The important thing to stress is that, were we in receipt of the draft legislation, this House could take it forward very quickly indeed, but we are not. The challenge right now is for the authorities in Northern Ireland that are responsible for this to work through each of the aspects raised by the political parties, to ensure that this can be brought forward in draft. The moment it arrives here we will be able to take this forward very quickly indeed.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

Would my noble friend accept that there are other victims too? We have discussed in this House those who were brutally treated during the Troubles, many of whom were maimed. Many have died in the last few years. They deserve the same sort of recompense; my noble friend has acknowledged that on the Floor of this House. Will he try to bring legislation that includes them as well?

Northern Ireland Update

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Monday 29th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Baroness draws attention to a sad state of affairs in Northern Ireland—namely, that the everyday business of government has almost fallen by the wayside, in so far as we have reached the point, so many years now after the collapse of the previous Executive, that we cannot with confidence or certainty maintain that which has gone before. That includes funding across a whole range of charitable operations and funding aspects of education, welfare and beyond. There is a whole range of aspects, which is why the importance of restoring an Executive has always been critical. The United Kingdom Government remain committed to good governance in Northern Ireland, but that is not enough. This is an opportunity to bring together the parties in Northern Ireland to restore a sustainable, functioning Executive to address the very issues that the noble Baroness raises. The people of Northern Ireland deserve a lot better than they have had.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I suggest to my noble friend, if we are really going to sustain the momentum that has been created, that when these talks begin they do so not in rooms but that the Assembly that has been elected is summoned to Stormont and that not only the Secretary of State but the Prime Minister and the Taoiseach are there to speak to the Members of the Assembly to stress their total commitment and dedication to the restoration of devolved government, and to challenge the Members of the Assembly to respond positively to it.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend Lord Cormack was short, sharp and very much to the point. We need to ensure that this is not a process that remains solely behind closed doors. It must involve all the Members of the Assembly, who bring their knowledge to the process. There can be nobody left behind. I include in that civil society and local government. Each must now play their part in this process to make sure that we deliver a sustainable Executive that can hit the ground running and restore the confidence of the people of Northern Ireland in politicians full stop.

Northern Ireland (Extension of Period for Executive Formation) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 10th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Northern Ireland Office and Scotland Office (Lord Duncan of Springbank) (Con)]

My Lords, as I have said many times, restoring the Northern Ireland Executive remains the Government’s key priority in Northern Ireland. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has spoken to the Northern Ireland parties and the Irish Government on a number of occasions over recent weeks.

In those discussions, all five parties have been consistent in their commitment to restore power-sharing as set out in the Belfast agreement. The five main parties will undertake a further series of talks with the aim of restoring devolution at the earliest opportunity. The Irish Government also support this approach. These talks will involve the UK Government, the five main parties and the Irish Government, in accordance with the established three-stranded approach.

The Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Act 2018 extended the period for Executive formation to 26 March. The Act gave the Secretary of State the option to extend that period once for a period of up to five months. On 21 March she laid before Parliament the statutory instrument that extended that period to 25 August, subject to the approval of both Houses of Parliament.

That step was taken reluctantly. However, as 26 March approached without agreement to form an Executive, only three options were available to the Government: calling an Assembly election, undertaking direct rule, or extending the period for Executive formation. The Government believe that an extension is the best route toward restoring an Executive.

During this period, the Secretary of State will continue to work with the five parties and the Irish Government to create the right conditions and the best possible framework for successful talks. As a first step, the Secretary of State intends to invite the MLAs of all parties to two sets of briefings, one on issues related to the programme for government and the other on the petition of concern.

Before I conclude, I want to explain why the Government chose to use the made affirmative procedure in this instance. Our preference would have been to bring forward this instrument in the usual way, using the draft affirmative procedure, but that procedure carries with it a longer lead time. We would have had to lay the instrument weeks earlier than we did. The Government took the view that laying the instrument at that earlier stage would have been prejudicial and disruptive to the private work the Secretary of State was undertaking with the parties during February and March. Of course, the instrument cannot remain in force without this House’s approval, which is why we are discussing this today. That is the reason I beg to move.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, extensions are clearly the flavour of the day. We at least know the exact date for this one. However, I regret this infinitely. I am extremely grateful to my noble friend for what he has said on the Floor of your Lordships’ House and in private conversation. I do not for a minute doubt his total commitment. However, it really is not good enough that we have to keep revisiting this matter.

The history of our country over the last year would probably have been different had we had a Northern Ireland Assembly functioning where people would have been able to express the view of the largeish majority recorded in June 2016. We touched on this before. As it is, we have heard only one view and one voice in parliamentary assembly. The only parliamentary Assemblies we have been able to hear are your Lordships’ House and the other place.

Several times, a number of us, including my noble friend Lord Trimble and the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice —neither of whom is here at the moment—have strongly endorsed the plea that I have made many times to my noble friend. Can we at least make some real progress by having the Assembly meet? Of course, it is a second best to having the Executive as well. We all recognise and acknowledge that. The sooner we can have an Executive, the better. Until we do, why can we not have an Assembly—the Members of which are paid; I am not complaining about that—meeting in Stormont and able to discuss the issues of the day, even if they will not have the legal authority they would have if we had fully restored devolved government? We touched on one issue only a week ago when we were talking about flags. The noble Lord, Lord Bruce, moved an amendment to the Motion, which I was happy to support. I yet again ask my noble friend to please do his utmost to persuade the Secretary of State that this really would give out a signal that would be warmly welcomed throughout the United Kingdom and, I believe, Northern Ireland. It is not impossible; it should be done.

I very much hope that my noble friend will also be able to say something about progress towards appointing some highly respected neutral individual—I hate the word “facilitator”—who would be able to try to move things on towards the restoration of the Executive. I make no criticism of anybody’s integrity, but the perception, because of the official link-up between the Government and the DUP, is that the Government are somehow involved in partiality. I do not believe it—I certainly would not believe it of my noble friend in a thousand years—but it is a perception, and perceptions are important. Therefore, to have someone who would command the respect of all potential participants could be only helpful. When he comes to reply to this brief debate, I ask my noble friend to be kind enough to touch on both those points.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cormack]

My noble friend always impresses. He has the regard of all Members of your Lordships’ House. However, we must move things forward. Will he undertake to make a statement to the House after we return from the all-too-brief and already-truncated Easter Recess so that we know exactly what is happening?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am always content to return to this House and explain what is going on at any particular point. I would hope to do so on the basis of news to report. If my noble friend will allow it on that basis, we can keep this House updated on what is unfolding. I do not wish to place pressure on the parties by so doing, of course, but it is right and appropriate that this Chamber understands how events are unfolding—particularly when we have only five months. When these regulations were introduced in the first instance, we had five months in the bank that we could potentially draw upon. Now we do not. This is the five-month period and the sand is trickling through the hourglass. It is appropriate that we keep this House updated so that noble Lords understand what is happening. I will do my utmost to ensure that your Lordships are kept fully abreast of these issues when there is news to report.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That the Bill do now pass.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I want to speak very briefly to reiterate something that we said last week at Second Reading and touched on again earlier this evening in Committee. When there is no Northern Ireland Executive and no Assembly in session, it is quite wrong for Bills touching the lives of virtually every citizen in Northern Ireland to be disposed of so unnecessarily quickly in this House. I know my noble friend has some sympathy with this point of view—if I may say so, he was magnificent in Committee. I would be grateful if he discussed it yet again with the powers that be through the usual channels. I am delighted to have seen the most senior representative of the usual channels, take a place—not his place—while I have been speaking.

There is one other point I would like to make. At Second Reading last week, my noble friend said that he would try to come back when we were dealing with the Bill today with any further information on the plea that many of us have made for the Assembly to be called into being and on the desirability—which I think we all share—of having some mediator figure to convene the various parties in Northern Ireland. It is now well over two years since we had an Executive or an Assembly. People in Northern Ireland have been short-changed by their politicians.

It is also deeply unfortunate that, when the real stumbling block over Brexit has been the border, we have had no opportunity to hear what the politicians elected to the Assembly in Northern Ireland think or for them to put anything into the debate. Although none of us knows whether this would have made any significant difference, given the fact that 56% of Northern Ireland voted to remain in the European Union and none of the elected representatives in the Westminster Parliament take that view, it would have been an opportunity that might just conceivably have produced some interesting ideas. So for every possible reason—and I am glad to see the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, nodding assent—I hope, as we all do, that we have an Assembly and Executive in being before long; but that we devote more time in this Chamber, where so much responsibility does and should lie, in the absence of a devolved Administration. I look forward to my noble friend’s response in due course.

[Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)]

My Lords, like other Members, I was somewhat compromised by the early business and not able to be here in time for the start of it. I do not wish to repeat the debate. I want to show appreciation for the amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Empey; the fact I was not able to speak to it was for no reason other than that, although I supported it, I wanted to observe the courtesies of the House—which I noticed not every other noble Lord did.

In those circumstances, I want to say two or three things. First, this Bill presents this Chamber with a choice between a rock and a hard place. Most of us are, I think, very unhappy about the fact that rates and the renewable heat incentive scheme were lumped together in the Bill. While the Minister did not acknowledge that that was a tactic, he did say it was something he did not approve of and hoped would not happen again.

My second concern is that we were faced with the situation—it probably determined why the noble Lord, Lord Empey, withdrew his amendment—that if we passed the amendment, there was a danger people would receive no payment on 1 April, which is a consideration. At this stage, it is important to acknowledge that the Minister has clearly presented a constructive compromise—but, as the noble Lord, Lord Empey, pointed out, one he does not have the authority to guarantee. The House has accepted that in good faith but with real concerns as to where it might lead us. Had we supported the amendment from the noble Lord, Lord Empey, the consequences might have been difficult.

Like most other Members, I have received emails from a number of different businesses across Northern Ireland—not all of them farmers—expressing their angst and concern. I have engaged with them, responded to the emails and forwarded them all to the Minister. I do not need to repeat it, but we need to acknowledge that we are passing a Bill that effectively—how can I put this?—gives authority to the denial of ministerial responsibility for giving guarantees and assurances on which people relied and on which they have been betrayed. I am not comfortable with giving a Bill that does that a Third Reading, and I do not think your Lordships should be either.

The thought that has occurred to me throughout the whole process around the renewable heat incentive scheme is this: the 12% return was known from the beginning, as the Minister acknowledged. I find it difficult, if not impossible, to believe that on two separate occasions the Northern Ireland Executive introduced tariffs which could not conceivably have come close to representing a 12% return on the investment and which were, as anybody providing any objective analysis would very quickly have observed, in breach. That raises the most fundamental questions of propriety, honesty and integrity, of both politicians and, I am afraid, civil servants too. My instincts, however, are that civil servants did not understand what they should have, but I do not think that lets them off the hook.

People will look for a price to be paid, and the two prices to be paid are these. First, will the people who genuinely relied on this and suffered get compensation? Secondly, in the process of doing that, are we in danger of compensating people who took advantage of the system and who could get an extra twist out of it? That, I suggest to the Minister, is something that we need to avoid.

Having said all that, we have no choice but to pass this Bill tonight. However, we should record that it is being passed under duress, at speed, without adequate consultation and with consequences to follow both in the courts and in the political arena that will probably haunt Northern Ireland for many years to come.

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords & Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 19th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Interestingly enough, this was always known; it was just never fully understood or applied. What the Government here have sought to understand is exactly what information the Northern Ireland Executive has been in receipt of. We have been very clear about pinning that down, because the 12% was always there; it was simply not used correctly, which allowed it to spiral massively, up to and in excess of 50%. We have had sight of correspondence from the European Commissioner that tells us very clearly that, were we to maintain the rate as it stands, we would be in breach of state aid rules. Civil servants in Northern Ireland—noble and diligent as they are—cannot move forward on the basis of an illegal rate. That is why we find ourselves where we are today.

I will touch on a couple of points made by the noble Lord, Lord Empey. He notes that this proposal really covers the medium-sized boilers. He is correct that it does not affect the larger boilers or the micro boilers. These matters were to be considered after we had settled this question, which covers the bulk of boilers in Northern Ireland. That said, the issue is a very simple one, and the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, put it very well: it is fairness, justice and equity. That is the issue we need to address tonight.

There is no question that the individuals who have emailed us, setting out their case and their distress in black and white, must get an adequate response. I am hopeful that I can put forward a proposal to the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, that will help us move this matter forward, but your Lordships must be more of a judge of that than I am. My proposal is that the Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland—not on our instruction but because it believes it to be the right course of action—sets up a unit within the department, under independent chairmanship, that will be responsible for examining the case of every individual who has received funds from the RHI initiative and believes that they have experienced hardship. I propose that each element of their case is considered in thorough detail and with their participation, in order to understand exactly what that hardship looks like.

As a consequence of that, and with the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee inquiry running alongside that, those two elements should together help inform the part of the Bill that covers the issue of the voluntary buy-out. Currently, the voluntary buy-out is more or less a statement that lacks mechanical details. If we construct the buy-out to adequately and appropriately meet the needs of the farmers who rest within it, it could be adjusted in accordance with these elements. At the same time—and necessarily—the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee will consider future issues, and this should inform the overall functioning of this—not just the buy-out but the wider questions that rest within it.

Now, I will not try to sell your Lordships a pig in a poke, so what I will need to do to make this function properly is lay a written report before your Lordships’ House, so that your Lordships can see what this would look like in practice. There is no point in pretending that this can be achieved in a fortnight—there are too many cases that need a thorough and detailed examination. The point is, however, that we need to be in a situation where the compensation element is adequate and informed by these elements. If we can move forward on that basis, we can go some of the way towards meeting the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Empey.

[Lord Cormack]

My noble friend is obviously trying very hard to be helpful, for which we are grateful. Would it be possible, on Third Reading, to add a short schedule to the Bill that would refer to this proposal?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I always like to be asked a question, and I turn my eye gently and think: I have no idea of the answer to that. I will, however, find out the answer and report back to the noble Lord in real time as soon as it is available.

The reason that I am putting this proposal before your Lordships’ House tonight is because it would be unfair to pretend that we can treat all those individuals as an average; we need to see each in their own terms, understand how their world fits together and how this invidious scheme has been constructed to their detriment. It is unfair of this or any Government to expect those acting in good faith to be penalised for that. We must also be cognisant of the draw on the public purse—there is no point pretending that there is a bottomless pit of money for our approach to this matter. The noble Lord and I have, however, had discussions about what moneys might be required.

It says here, “No to bringing back on Third Reading”. I am afraid, therefore, that the answer to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, is no. I can, however, put on record that we will need to understand the timing of this to be able to deliver it—without the timing there is a risk it will drift into the long grass. I give an assurance that we will be able to—

Northern Ireland (Regional Rates and Energy) (No. 2) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 12th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord is absolutely correct. That is why I am trying to be very careful in putting this forward.

[Lord Cormack]

I am most grateful. I would like to follow up: I think we see this as one. I appreciate the suggestion that we might take part in some way. However, I would ask that the Secretary of State herself writes to every single elected Member, saying that there will be a meeting on a particular day and inviting them to come. It would be wrong to allow any single segment or group to veto that initiative. It has to be taken at the highest level, by the Prime Minister or Secretary of State.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I accept the words of my venerable and noble friend. I am trying to find a way of moving this forward as best I can. I wonder whether there might be an opportunity for us to meet collectively in a different forum to discuss that very thing. I do not think I will be able to resolve it on my feet. I do not doubt that in a few moments or so I will be getting little notes from my assistants in the Box.

Local Elections (Northern Ireland) (Election Expenses) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 5th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I will accept the criticism. I will not try to defend myself on that point either. We should be able to make progress on this matter, and I hope we can do so, but at this moment I cannot give an undertaking that progress will be made in the short term. For that I apologise.

If I may move on to some of the other issues raised in this particular debate, my noble friend Lord Lexden asked why it has taken so long. In actual fact, although we are reforming an Act which dates to the 1980s, the reform itself was not instituted in the 1980s. We are bringing ourselves into alignment not that long, broadly speaking, after the rest of the United Kingdom, and I hope that we will be able to make that progress today. My noble friend is also correct in looking at how the reorganisation has worked in Northern Ireland. As the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, has also pointed out, we do not yet have enough information to be able to assess that accurately and in the detail which we would require, but we will have to do so to make sure there was some value in undertaking the revision and reconstruction of those particular wards.

I note also the points raised by the noble Lord, Lord Kilclooney, on how larger wards by their nature tend to create a greater distance between the individual constituents—if you will—and those who represent them. I was the former MEP for the whole of Scotland. Frankly, I was widely unknown everywhere in Scotland, but none the less I recognise that the shortening of the proximity between those who do the electing and those who do the response is a challenge. It is greater challenge for those with a larger constituency, particularly if that constituency is a rural one where there will, by its nature, be greater challenges. I accept that on the whole.

My noble friend Lord Cormack is right, as the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has also pointed out, that we should use every opportunity to flag up where we are on the wider question. Two weeks ago, I hoped to be able to report on greater progress from the first meeting of the political parties in Northern Ireland. I was disappointed that I could not do that at the time. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland continues to meet them, and we are hopeful that we will be able to bring about the gathering which needs to take place as a precursor toward establishing the Assembly in a meaningful way with an Executive drawn therefrom.

We have not yet made that progress, but in truth we will have an opportunity to look at this in greater detail when the Executive formation extension element moves the deadline of 26 March to five months hence. I will bring back that very point to your Lordships’ House for a full debate. We can open that window of a further five months only if we have progress to report. Otherwise noble Lords will legitimately ask us, “What has changed? Why can we move forward at all?”. Noble Lords will say that to me, and I hope to bring forward on that occasion far more detail than I will give them today. At that point, I will explore exactly what we have done to try to bring those parties together.

There is no point in pretending that Brexit is not a part of it—I would sound very foolish if I pretended that—but we have to recognise that we are where we are, and it is against that backdrop that we must make progress. We do not get to choose the timing of these issues; we have to work with what we have before us.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady O’Neill of Bengarve, for raising the important report, which I have read in part. The issue of transparency is absolutely at the heart of Northern Ireland. There needs to be that confidence, which is why the point of the noble Baroness, Lady Harris, needs to be made; we need to have confidence not just in going forward, but also in the past. We need to have that. We need it as quickly as I can bring it back here, and I will bring it back here as quickly as I can.

I am conscious that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, flagged up an important debate next week on the wider budget, and we will have longer to discuss in some detail the functioning of the Northern Ireland Civil Service and the delivery of services, and each of the challenges which go with it. I know that we will have a thorough discussion on that occasion.

The restoration of the institutions is important. My noble friend Lord Cormack asks, “Why cannot the Assembly meet again? At least get one of the institutions sitting to explore these issues”. I will take that away again for further consideration, but I do not believe that it should be ruled out of hand. Every possible avenue needs to be explored at this point.

[Lord Cormack]

I am exceptionally grateful to my noble friend for what he has just said. Nobody is criticising him personally, but if, in the rather more substantive debate next week, he could report back specifically on that issue, I think we would all be extremely grateful.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

Yes; I will report back at greater length on that very point.

I hope, looking at my notes, that I have covered all the aspects. I thank all noble Lords for their support for the two changes themselves, which I believe will be important when they will be brought in. This will bring about a greater diversity in Northern Ireland; we need as many voices as we can possibly have in Northern Ireland, both at local government elections and beyond, when that moment comes. On that basis, I commend the order to the House.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointment Functions) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is an interesting issue. I suppose the question is whether they are brought together in the form of an Assembly, which has certain logistical elements, or in a different configuration. I would like to see the parties brought together to have a serious discussion on the backstop, now more than ever. This is the time when we need to make sure that the voices of those people who live in Northern Ireland, for whom the border is a real issue, are heard. Far too many experts on Northern Irish issues have suddenly appeared over the past few weeks and months—which has been somewhat resented, I think, by the people of Northern Ireland.

[Lord Cormack]

I do not want to labour the point, but surely what my noble friend has just said illustrates the good sense of getting the Assembly together. It could be done. That could be the item on the agenda. It cannot put us back, but it could possibly take us forward.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

That is constructive advice, as indeed all noble Lords have given today. I will take it away and make sure that it is heard by those who need to hear it. I would dearly like to make progress on that; I am tired of giving the same speech over and over again, and noble Lords are tired of hearing it. If we can get to the stage where we can move on to new ground and new issues—where we simply applaud the good governance in Northern Ireland—what a great step forward that would be. The noble Lord, Lord Empey, would stop raising his eyebrows at me when he mentions health issues, and I would be much happier in those moments. However, here we are—again.

I was trying to find a way to describe the events of Friday. It was not easy to find a positive way to do it, but I did find one way, which noble Lords may or may not find useful. Many noble Lords will be of an age that they can remember Angela Lansbury in her prime in “Bedknobs and Broomsticks”. She sang a song—

Northern Ireland: Devolution

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 14th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord brings valuable experience to the discussion: I have welcomed many contributions from him in the past. I assure him that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has been active. One of the challenges will often be that the activity is not seen: sometimes, like a swan on a lake, it is the feet under the water that are doing the flapping, rather than the bit above. That is probably not the best analogy I could have come up with—I am sorry about that. The point remains, none the less, that she is remarkably active in this area and we do have an opportunity up until 26 March. We must not lose that opportunity: she will be judged, as I will be judged, if we fail to deliver.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, I echo what the noble Lord, Lord Hain, said about my noble friend’s contribution. For two years now, he and his admirable predecessor have come to that Dispatch Box and said, “We do not rule anything out”, and “We are making progress”, but will he give me answers to two questions? First, many of us, including the noble Lord, Lord Trimble, have suggested that the Assembly could be called without having an Executive. Secondly, many people have said that it would be a good idea to have an independent adjudicator, and every time my noble friend has said, “We do not rule those things out”. Is it now time to rule them in?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend is asking questions that are getting much more specific, which I welcome. On his first point, regarding the Assembly, we are now seeking to pull all aspects of the community together through bilateral dialogue, but we cannot lose sight of the fact that the Assembly is an entity that we will need to use in the future. On the question of a facilitator or an adjudicator, he is quite right that I have said many times that nothing is off the table. I do not want to repeat myself, because I will become tedious, but we believe that this aspect has a part to play. It may not be a part at the outset, but we do see that this needs to be part of our ongoing consideration.

Northern Ireland (Executive Formation and Exercise of Functions) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 30th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The Victims Commissioner has not indicated such a date, but I am led to believe that we should be able to see progress in good time, if I can use that term. It is not an answer that the noble Baroness would want. I would like to give her a date but I cannot bind the Victims Commissioner to a date.

[Lord Cormack]

Of course my noble friend cannot bind her, but could she not be asked to do it within six months at the most? These people’s lives are coming to an end very frequently and we do need to have a date.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I am in a slightly invidious position because I cannot give a date—but I know that six months would be very far away and would be unacceptable to us. I cannot say that specifically, if my noble friend will forgive me, but we will make progress as quickly as we can because we recognise that this is not a matter that can be left to languish. The individuals are living through their own fate and we will not allow that to be the case. I hope that noble Lords will accept these words for what they mean and what they can deliver.

My word—I have been given a sheet of paper. We will guarantee within six months. So, yes, we will be able to do it within six months and I hope that that will therefore give some comfort to noble Lords that we take this matter with the utmost seriousness and we will move it forward.

Northern Ireland Executive: Update

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 6th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, if nothing is off the table—and we all agree with that—can I repeat something that I said to my noble friend yesterday? Forming the Executive is of paramount importance, but the Assembly exists. Its constituent bodies can exist. Can it not be called together? Can I add a suggestion? When it meets, even if it has to be in a different room from the Assembly Chamber, cannot the Prime Minister be there to speak to all the members of the Executive. If she wishes, she can be accompanied by the Taoiseach. She should say that devolution, which was so long fought for, was a remarkable achievement, signalled by the Good Friday agreement. We would be failing future generations if we did not use every ounce of vision and imagination to ensure that it survived.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord raises important points. It is important that the MLAs themselves seek to exert as much pressure as possible on all the participants to secure the return to a functioning Assembly and an Executive drawn from it. This must be the primary objective, but I will not lose sight of the other point raised again. The experience contained in the Assembly cannot be lost. This is why any ongoing dialogue must draw upon this knowledge to construct a better way forward.

My right honourable friend the Prime Minister and, I do not doubt, the Prime Minister of Ireland, are committed to bringing about the restoration of a functioning and sustainable Assembly in Northern Ireland. The Prime Ministers continue to give that commitment and will meet parties in the near future to bring about and facilitate the necessary dialogue.

Northern Ireland: Misoprostol

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Wednesday 5th September 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord raises some of the underpinning challenges in this area. It is now very clear that the situation in Northern Ireland can be brought to a sensible way forward only when we have an Executive best able to deliver against those policies. It should not rest either on this House or the other place to do that. I hope that all the representations that can possibly be made by noble Lords today will strongly encourage the parties of Northern Ireland to come back to that table and to secure agreement to form an Executive, so that these decisions can be taken where they need to be taken.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, cannot my noble friend take steps to ensure that the Assembly, which has been elected, which exists and which could debate this issue, is called together to do so?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My noble friend reiterates a point we need to stress, which is that the last time this matter was discussed in that Assembly, the consensus did not bring about the changes that I think a number of noble Lords wish to see. At present we need to have a fully functioning Executive to draw on the powers of the Assembly and take executive action in this area, should it be the will of the democratically elected MLAs in the Province.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Monday 18th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

My Lords, I hope I can be brief, as befits the hour. I thank again my noble friend Lord Patten for his amendment and all the work he has undertaken since it has been lodged. Indeed, I thank all noble Lords who spoke on Report. When we first addressed this amendment, we made clear that, while we agreed with the spirit and intent of the amendment, its language was potentially too loose and perhaps the Bill was not the most appropriate home for such an amendment. Since then, we have reflected further. Ultimately, we acknowledge that it is difficult to justify opposing something with which we almost entirely agree. On that basis, as the Government stated in the other place on Tuesday, we are happy to accept the thrust of the amendment. The only reason we return it to your Lordships’ House is to ensure that the amendment we accept in principle is fit for the statute book.

To achieve that aim, the other place has agreed amendments in lieu of those tabled by my noble friend Lord Patten. These amendments do three things. First, they ensure that the amendment reflects the reality that the withdrawal agreement will be concluded between the UK and the EU, not the UK and Ireland. It is important to reflect this reality, because otherwise the amendment risks contravening the principle of consent in the Belfast agreement, an issue raised when we debated this matter by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, and my noble friends Lord Trimble and Lord King of Bridgwater. The Belfast agreement does not provide for joint authority over Northern Ireland between the UK Government and the Irish Government. That is why the Government replaced the reference to the Government of Ireland with a reference to the EU.

Secondly, the changes tabled in the other place ensure that we refer back to the Northern Ireland Act when we talk about north-south co-operation, rather than creating a new definition. Thirdly, the changes tabled in the other place tighten the amendment. The wording in the original amendment was not legally watertight, so the Government’s reductions are important in ensuring that this amendment sits appropriately on the statute book. Ultimately, this amendment in lieu still refers to “checks and controls”, so covers the different types of checks and controls listed in my noble friend’s original amendment. I stress that this amendment is only about the powers in the Bill, and applies only in relation to the agreement we reach between the UK and the EU. Its effect does not stray more widely. As we have said before, the Northern Ireland border will be dealt with in the withdrawal agreement, which will be implemented in domestic law by the withdrawal agreement and implementation Bill.

In conclusion, I hope I have the support of your Lordships in backing the amendment in lieu from the other place to ensure that this otherwise sensible amendment can complete its journey to the statute book.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I think this is a very fine illustration of what this House has been able to do to the Bill. Of course, tomorrow all the focus, all the razzmatazz, will be concentrated on the vote that took place less than half an hour ago, but there has been real progress and a real meeting of minds. Clearly, we are very much in debt to my noble friend Lord Patten for his initiative, but the Government have responded in kind and that is something for which we are all grateful. It also underlines the fact that this House was able to give critical scrutiny to the Bill and the Government were able to recognise, on many occasions, that points of real substance had been made and real advance had been achieved.

I hope that when people look back on this, all the ridiculous accusations of betrayal and treachery and enemies of the people—all that rubbish—will be forgotten and what will be remembered is that your Lordships’ House devoted many hours of painstaking scrutiny to a Bill that we all recognised had to go on the statute book, and we improved it significantly. I am quietly proud of what we have done in this House. I hope all your Lordships will be. I hope that those outside who comment on these affairs will recognise the constructive role of this House of Parliament.

Northern Ireland: Devolved Government

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Thursday 22nd February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as my noble friend said on Tuesday, as the 20th anniversary of the Belfast agreement approaches, the celebrations will ring very hollow indeed. Should we not continue to say firmly but quietly to both the DUP and Sinn Féin that they must not sacrifice what their predecessors helped to create?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

In response to my noble friend I will happily say that the Belfast agreement is an imperative, essential element of the Government’s policy, and I have no desire for that celebration to fall without an Executive.

Northern Ireland Update

Debate between Lord Duncan of Springbank and Lord Cormack

Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord for his question. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has made it plain that she will now begin serious discussions on a budget and she will return to the other place by the end of March to deliver on that commitment. We cannot continue to kick the can down the road. That is why these deliberations will need to be much more far-reaching than the discussions we had what seems only a few months ago, when we brought the previous Northern Ireland budget through this place. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Rogan, for his comments.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords, as one who was present at many meetings with the late Ian Paisley—Lord Bannside—when he was breathing new life into the Good Friday agreement, Mrs Foster’s statement last week brought a chill to my heart. Will my noble friend pursue with vigour the suggestion contained in the comments and questions of the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, and look with real, earnest and urgent seriousness at the Trimble-Alderdice suggestions? The people of Northern Ireland deserve no less than that their Assembly, which they elected, should meet, even without an Executive, much as we would like to see that established at the earliest possible date.

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Cormack, for his comments. As I said, nothing now can be off the table. The Trimble-Alderdice suggestions will be given due consideration. We owe it to the people of Northern Ireland to deliver better government than we have thus far managed to achieve.