Refugees: Unaccompanied Children

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

It is absolutely right to raise that point: we have a particular problem there, and we need more local authorities to come forward. We will take some action: the Immigration Bill before your Lordships’ House includes a provision that will allow the Secretary of State, where people do not step forward, to impose a settlement on local authorities—and that comes not only with the child, but with about £40,000 of funding per head. So we are not simply asking people to take additional responsibilities. If there is anything that can be done through the diocese of Kent to exert pressure on local authorities more widely to take their fair share, we would of course all welcome that.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that all over the country, the British public are anxious to do something to help Syrian refugees, particularly children? There is an enormous surge of enthusiasm to do something. Could the Minister, and the Government, not make a more positive appeal? I hear from people who want to be foster parents: foster parents will be forthcoming. We cannot leave these children to fester somewhere in Europe, uncared for and vulnerable to trafficking gangs.

[Lord Bates]

Absolutely right—and I certainly join the noble Lord in appealing for more foster carers to come forward, to help not only children who are refugees but all children; there is a great shortage. But I also hope that the people of this country can take some pride in the fact that through their aid—through their taxes, which go through the Government—we shall be able to provide £2.3 billion-worth of aid, which is keeping 227,793 children in education and providing livelihood assistance to 600,000 families in the region, 2 million medical interventions and 15 million food rations. That is something we can be proud of.

Transport for London Bill [HL]

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 8th February 2016 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Dubs]

That the Grand Committee takes note of the delays in the passage of the Transport for London Bill [HL] and the case for land disposed of under the provisions of that Bill being used to increase social housing.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, it is quite unusual for a private Bill to be the subject of a certain amount of political attention and controversy. I have had a bit of a job explaining to friends what the difference is between a private Bill and a private Member’s Bill—it is not that widely understood.

Let me explain what my concerns are, because I put a stop to a fairly smooth process so that there would be a chance to have a debate, which is what I was after. Why has this Bill been around for so long? I understand that it first got to Parliament in 2010, nearly six years ago. It may have got stuck in the House of Commons—or it may not—but I am puzzled as to why it has taken so long. It is important to note that the time lag has meant that the housing market in London has changed, becoming much more acute and difficult. In one sense, the Bill is a bit out of date because of the passage of time. I have had quite a large number of representations about the Bill and am grateful to Transport for London, which came in to discuss it with me.

I have mentioned my first concern—the length of time the process has taken. It is quite difficult to remember the situation when the Bill first came to this House. It may have been more recently but it still means that some of us are not as up to date as we might be on what happened when it was before the House. What is not controversial is that the property market has changed quite a lot in the last six years, especially in residential housing. There are far more housing pressures and many people in London are finding it hard to find property to rent or to buy.

I understand that Transport for London is facing a large cut in its budget—up to £800 million in the year and £2.8 billion over a five-year period. I may be corrected on the precise figures, but it is a large cut. The politics of the Bill are that TfL has been told that its funding has been cut and it has to raise money by some other means. The main means open to TfL as far as this Bill is concerned is to dispose of assets of land at or near stations. In the initial phase, most of the sites—there are about 50—have been in zones 1 and 2 but the plan is to expand into wider zones. Of course, the value of the sites in zones 1 and 2 far exceeds the value of the sites further out.

TfL is intending to dispose of land for housing; some will be used for offices as well. It is obviously a good thing to use the land for housing but the next question is what sort of housing. Will it be for more affluent people or for ordinary people who are bearing the brunt of the housing crisis in London? The Minister wrote me a letter, for which I thank him, about the Bill and about housing. He mentioned three ongoing planning applications at Nine Elms, Northwood and Parsons Green, saying that these,

“will deliver … affordable housing levels ranging up to 40%”,

of the total.

The problem is: what is affordable housing? I have spent some time doing research into this. We understand what social housing is but affordable housing is variable and there is no clear indication as to whether housing that is affordable can be accessible to ordinary people. I have been looking at various definitions. For example, from the national policy and planning framework there is a glossary that mentions affordable housing. It says:

“Eligibility is determined with regard to local incomes and local house prices”.

and it talks a lot more about affordable housing. I find it difficult. If the answer is that all the housing, or a large part of it, will be affordable then that is not quite clear enough and I would like to know more about what sort of housing it will be. I appreciate that London boroughs decide how they define affordable locally and that is a difficulty. London-wide, a lot of the affordable housing is beyond the reach of ordinary people. Therefore, whereas I welcome the idea that the land to be disposed of is for housing, I question for what sort of people it will really be intended for. Of course we could discuss the definition of social housing and affordable housing for a long time but I put it as a question.

As I said, TfL is under enormous pressure from the Government to maximise its return. In a way I have sympathy for TfL, which is caught between pressure from the Government who are cutting its money and pressure from people who want better housing for Londoners at prices that Londoners can manage to pay. It is a bit unfair that TfL is put in this difficult position. Furthermore, TfL has the power via the Greater London Authority to make compulsory purchase orders for land adjacent to these properties. That will of course be a way of increasing the return but, again, it might be a way of taking housing away from ordinary people. So that is also a matter of some concern.

The land we are talking about is currently public land: it is a public asset. It is not a matter of one private developer selling to another, and it is a pity that some of that is not going to social or decently affordable housing. We are talking about public assets spread where there are TfL assets, particularly at stations. I believe the priority in disposing of public land should be land that would be used preferably for social housing or affordable housing at a price that would mean something significant.

In the Bill, TfL is to engage with property developers and there is this slightly puzzling concept of limited partnership; it has been much criticised for being less transparent and is a device used to minimise tax obligations. I am not certain whether joint ventures and limited partnerships are the same thing or whether there are technical differences between the two. All I know is that in joint ventures the private developer can have anything between a 10% and 90% stake. Therefore, there is an issue that is of real concern. Those of us who believe passionately that London has a housing crisis that should be tackled urgently do not want to support anything that means moving backwards and losing valuable land that can be used for ordinary people.

I understand that the contentious clause—Clause 5 —may be taken out of the Bill when it gets to the House of Commons. I do not think it is a secret so I am not giving anything away in saying that. First, I hope that can be confirmed. If it is taken out, can we have some indication as to the remaining basis on which TfL will be able to sell land? It still has the powers to do it though it will be more limited if Clause 5 disappears. Therefore, I would find it useful to know what sort of powers TfL will have left and whether there will be sufficient safeguards in that arrangement to meet some of the concerns that I have expressed. The proposition is a very simple one. I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I am extremely grateful to all noble Lords who took part in this debate. I repeat my thanks to all those who provided me with help in preparing for the debate today. I also thank my friend in the House of Commons, Andy Slaughter MP, who was very useful in giving me helpful advice in preparing for today’s discussions.

One or two things puzzle me a little. I have heard words such as “hedging power”. I am not an expert in finance, and am grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Grey-Thompson, for the detailed exposition she gave us, but I do not know what hedging powers are, frankly. I do not have a clue what that means. I am suspicious of it, as it seems to be some sort of financial services device.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I am a former financial services professional. In essence, it is about mitigation of risk—lowering risks and ensuring that you can use the markets to minimise your risks in any investment decisions taken.

[Lord Dubs]

I am most grateful. I have learned something that is going to stand me in good stead in the future. In giving the TfL position, the noble Baroness said that revenue had been cut faster than anticipated. That is really the clue. Transport for London has taken a bigger hit in its finances that it had expected. We all want more housing in London but we also want housing that people can afford, not in the Government’s definition of affordable housing but in the common-sense definition: housing that ordinary people can manage to buy or afford to rent. The temptation in a debate like this is to range widely over housing policy. Clearly that is a temptation I have to resist because it would not be proper to do so. However, the temptation is very strong indeed.

I hope that when the Bill is revised and goes to the Commons, the Commons will have another good look at it and deal with some of the other concerns that have been alluded to. I also hope that TfL will reflect on the concerns expressed in both Houses of Parliament about the possible danger in its proposals of reducing the possibility of developing social housing for ordinary Londoners. That is the real risk. I hope Transport for London will take that on board. Of course, it is in difficulty. It is caught between two opposing forces and has been put in an almost impossible position, for which I have much sympathy. I hope, nevertheless, that Transport for London will do its best and maybe a new Labour Mayor of London will move things on in a better way. I beg to move.

Motion agreed.

Immigration Bill

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 3rd February 2016 Lords Chamber

When I studied history at university, I could never really understand how it was that the Nazi persecution of the Jews was allowed to go on for so long and that people were either unaware or unwilling to take action. In those days, there was at least the excuse that people might not know because communications were difficult. We know what is going on in Syria and Iraq daily, from the internet and the videos and the information provided. Even at this late hour, I hope that the Minister will take on board what has been said on this amendment and, if he cannot accept the amendment, that the Government will take some effective and urgent action to deal with those Christians, our brothers and sisters, in Syria and Iraq.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, anyone who went to any of the events connected with Holocaust Memorial Day just a few days ago will know that people said in 1945, “Never again”. Then we had serious tragedies and genocides in Bosnia, South Sudan and elsewhere. We keep saying that it must never happen again but it still does. I found the arguments put by the three Members of the Committee who have spoken to the amendment very powerful. They are in the spirit of the commitments made on Holocaust Memorial Day—“Never again”. They are saying that because it is still happening we have to do something about the victims. I very much support the amendment.

[Lord Marlesford (Con)]

My Lords, the Government should be rather ashamed that this debate is necessary. It has taken the whole consideration of the Bill on to a different plane from all the other amendments that I have listened to. It is so terrible that so-called diplomacy should be unable to do what is right. I have been deeply shocked that the Government, in being asked to give priority to Christians among the 20,000 Syrians who we are to admit during this Parliament as refugees, have said that they cannot do so because they cannot discriminate. The whole concept of refugees and asylum is discrimination. It is giving succour to those who need succour. I will go no further except to say that if the amendment were to come back to the House at Report and the Government resist it, they would be overwhelmingly and humiliatingly defeated.

Child Refugees

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 25th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

Yes, there would be that—and, of course, one advantage of the Syrian resettlement programme as it is currently configured is that we relocate not just children but family groups into the UK. That is something to be appreciated. We will ensure that that study is carried out.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, of course, what the Government are doing to support refugees in the camps in Jordan, Lebanon, Turkey and so on is good—and of course the 20,000 scheme is a good one, although far too small. But the winter is coming and there are children in European countries who are not being looked after, who are in danger of being trafficked and who might die in the winter. We do not have time to spare while the Government dither. Can we get on with it?

Immigration Bill

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I should first declare an interest as I spent eight years as a director of the Refugee Council before joining this House. Perhaps I should also add that I was a refugee myself, during my childhood. I am grateful to the many organisations that have provided ample briefings. It has been too difficult to read them all because so many came in, but they were very helpful.

I should like to make one or two general points. Immigration is such a hot issue. There are, indisputably, benefits to this country from immigration, but the problem is that those benefits are spread over many parts of the country and certain communities have resulting pressures on hospitals, schools, housing and so on. It ought not to be beyond our ability and skills to make sure that the communities that are welcoming and accommodating refugees, asylum seekers and immigrants should be helped with resources out of the benefit that goes to the country as a whole from our extra GDP.

It is important that we try to win public opinion as opposed to adopting a policy that is hostile to immigration and asylum seekers and says that we do not want them here. Of course we must have a sensible and controlled policy for immigration; of course we cannot have an open door. However, it is important that we try to win public opinion. It is somewhat ironic that, in recent years, Germany has become the conscience of Europe. We never thought Germany would set standards of human rights that would be a model for the rest of Europe.

It is important that we have a sensible way of distinguishing between asylum seekers, under the 1951 convention, and people who seek to migrate for economic purposes. There is confusion between the two, because it depends a bit on how effective our determination of asylum seekers is. I put it to the Minister that there are people who may not be deemed to be asylum seekers but who find it very unsafe to return to their countries. It is no wonder that some of them are desperate not to return—it is unsafe—no matter what asylum determination processes we have. We have to be careful of and sensitive to that. I have heard of people who just feel that it is unsafe for them to return, and they will hang on because of that.

I have a question about the devolved Administrations. Some measures will be transferred to the three devolved Administrations under SIs and I am not sure that they have been fully consulted or had a chance to consider the Bill. Will the Minister comment on that?

I want to talk about something that happened when the Bosnians came some years ago because it will affect the way in which we have Syrians coming here—not enough, but they are coming here. It is important that communities to which asylum seekers go, with the Government’s blessing, should be made to feel involved in the process so that they can be welcoming. When I was at the Refugee Council, we had some reception centres for Bosnians who came under the government scheme. I remember going to one in Newcastle. We had an open day for this centre, and we invited not just Members of Parliament and local councillors, but the police, the churches, the medical profession, community workers, voluntary organisations and so on. Altogether, it was a welcoming occasion, when the local community felt that they had a stake in the people who had arrived in their midst. I urge the Government to consider a model of that sort when looking at the Syrian refugees.

[Lord Empey (UUP)]

With the noble Lord’s experience, both personal and political, would he not agree that the concentration of such enormous numbers of people in small geographical areas is almost unmanageable? It is natural for people to gravitate towards those who come from their own background, can speak their language and so on. It is difficult to get any kind of distribution that would achieve the noble objectives that he outlines.

[Lord Dubs]

That is helpful. If I go back to my past with the Refugee Council, in conjunction with the Home Office at the time, we set out to have reception centres in various parts of the country—we worked with the Red Cross and other organisations—so that the numbers would be manageable in terms of local community involvement. In that way, we would not have a vast number coming—although we could have accommodated far more than we did—and they would be dispersed in various centres around the country to make the process sensible and manageable. From my experience, it worked. That did what the noble Lord said should be the objective and worked pretty well. However, that is in the past and I want to move very quickly to concerns about the Bill.

I am worried that cutting support for failed asylum seekers will lead to destitution. For the reasons that I have already said about it being unsafe to return to the country of origin, people will want to hang on here. Removal of the right of appeal against a Home Office decision to refuse or discontinue support for asylum seekers is not desirable. Indeed, I am also worried that the right of appeal exercised abroad will simply not work.

I received this big document, a fact book produced by the Government, only last night, so I have not had a chance to read it all, but it states:

“Making a migrant depart from the UK before appealing is not a new concept”.

The powers were there before in the Nationality, Immigration and Asylum Act 2002. But that does not make it right. An appeal from outside the country, without legal aid and without help, is very difficult to achieve.

As regards family reunion, where we have children here and other close members of their family are in other countries, it would be desirable to be generous in allowing such child refugees to sponsor their family members to join them. Maybe it goes the other way and they would want to go in a different direction, but we should make it possible for children here to be joined by their families. It would make for stability, would probably lower the cost of the whole process and would make sense.

Perhaps I may turn to detention. I should like to see an automatic entitlement to claim bail before detention starts; in other words, there should be a process whereby a person who is being detained should be able not only to apply for bail after a number of days, but that the process should get under way right at the beginning. Otherwise we have officials and administrators saying, “You will be detained”, and surely that goes against all our traditions. There should also be an upper limit on how long someone is held in detention before they can be bailed, even if the earlier claim does not apply.

I shall mention briefly two other points. There is tremendous concern on the part of the Government about driving licences. We do not have ID cards. That debate is for another day, but I think that as a country we were silly not to have them. The Government document states:

“UK driving licences can be used as a form of identification which can help an individual access UK services”.

We all use driving licences or passports time and again, so I think we have got ourselves into a muddle about this and we should not put the burden on people who have come here.

Lastly, of course it is difficult to remove people who have no right to stay here, especially given all the reservations I have expressed about some countries not being safe to return to. I am not sure that I have my facts right on the country, but I believe that some years ago Australia tried an experiment. If families are due for removal having exhausted their rights, they should be provided with personal support through people working with them. That is a way of getting their acquiescence in the removal process which the harsher regime suggested by the Government here does not achieve.

Transport for London

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 14th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

What is smelly food to some may not be smelly to others, but let us not go into that particular issue. The important thing to remember is that there has been a tough spending round, but in our discussions London government has a substantial settlement for the next spending review period of £11 billion. We are working together to improve London’s quality of transport across the board.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

The Minister will be aware that there is a Private Bill working its way through this House to do with, among other things, disposal of assets by Transport for London. When meeting Transport for London, will he ensure that it and the local authorities in which these developments will take place have a proper proportion of social housing coming out of them, not just housing for the very rich?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My list grows for my meeting with Transport for London. Of course I take anything I hear from noble Lords seriously and I will put it on the agenda and discuss it. The important thing to remember, however, is that the Government work hand in glove to ensure that, although there is delegation and devolution in London on issues of transport, we provide the best transport for the best city in the world.

Syrian Refugees: Settlement in the UK

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 7th December 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Swinfen (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords—

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Stowell of Beeston) (Con)]

My Lords, I suggest that it is the turn of a Back Bencher—the noble Lord, Lord Dubs.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, what advice, support and help are the Government giving to local authorities to ensure that they have a satisfactory settlement, so that people can be helped into move-on housing and that the local medical and education support services, for example, are there? Given that we have previous experience—for example, when the Bosnians came here—please let us not waste it.

[Lord Bates]

Exactly. Taking precisely from that experience is the reason why the Prime Minister appointed a Minister for the Syrian resettlement programme. Richard Harrington is based in the Home Office and is liaising with the DCLG, which is conveniently in the same building, to ensure that such joined-up work happens and people get the support they need when they arrive.

Syrian Refugees

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 27th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

It is a different regime. The whole point is that these people will be taken from the region, pre-cleared and identified as eligible for leave to remain in the UK. When they get here, they will have the status not of asylum seekers but of people who have leave to remain. They will have access to the benefit system and the labour market.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

What sort of help are the Government going to give local authorities and voluntary organisations to provide the support that newly arrived asylum seekers would need? I speak from some experience from when I was with the Refugee Council, where we ran through a similar programme on behalf of Bosnians. They do need that sort of help.

[Lord Bates]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that they need that sort of help. We have said that, for the first year, all the costs for people on this scheme, particularly those associated with housing, healthcare, social care and welfare will be reimbursed to the local authority from the overseas aid budget, under its rules. A discussion about year 2 onwards is going on between the Minister for Syrian refugees and local authorities which volunteered to be part of the scheme.

Hunting Act 2004

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 15th July 2015 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Dubs]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the impact of their proposed amendments to the Hunting Act 2004 on efforts to protect animal welfare.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Bates) (Con)]

My Lords, the proposed amendments do not overturn the hunting ban. Pursuit and killing of wild animals by dogs remains illegal. Hare coursing also remains illegal. The UK continues to have some of the strongest animal welfare protection in the world.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

I wonder if the Minister has ever read the Conservative Party manifesto. In the spirit of helpfulness, perhaps I may point to one sentence:

“A Conservative Government will give Parliament the opportunity to repeal the Hunting Act on a free vote, with a government Bill in government time”.

Whatever made the Government think that they could slip a measure through without having a full Bill, as they were contemplating doing a few days ago? Do not the Government realise that getting this measure through Parliament would be deeply unpopular—as it is in the country? Would not the best thing be to drop the whole daft idea?

[Lord Bates]

I can confirm that I did read the Conservative manifesto, and I think that quite a lot of the electorate probably read it as well. On the noble Lord’s point, of course there is a manifesto commitment about a free vote, and that will come. What we were dealing with here was secondary legislation to bring in technical changes which would bring the legislation into line with that which exists in Scotland. That is what was at issue in this debate. No secondary legislation would change the primary purpose of the Bill, so that is a separate matter.

Drugs: Cannabis

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 17th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bates]

It is not that the drug is no longer approved; it was never approved by NICE. It has been licensed for marketing and is available on private prescription in England. In Wales, it is available on prescription. People are still evaluating its performance. NICE’s view was that alternatives are available which are more cost effective and more effective in their treatment outcomes. That is a decision for it.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not the case that some people suffering from MS who feel that they have a need for cannabis can manage only to get skunk—which is pretty dangerous—through their own means? Would it not be better if people suffering from MS had access to a safer form of cannabis, such as is suggested in the Question, rather than having to resort to the stuff that is more easily available?

[Lord Bates]

That is the case. Where safer drugs are available, a licence should be applied for from the Medicine and Healthcare Products Regulatory Agency. If they are safe and effective, they will be licensed for use in the UK.