Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 26th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hamwee (LD)]

My Lords, I think this may be the moment to remind ourselves that “illegal” and “irregular” are not the same thing. Amendment 7 refers to “illegal migrant crossings”. It is not illegal to seek asylum, and a crossing is not the same thing as entry. I ask noble Lords to forgive me for that slightly pompous comment, but I think it is important.

I say again that it is the Secretary of State who holds the responsibility and the liability, if you like. I may be misunderstanding this, but there is a muddling of responsibility by, for instance, including prosecutions within the functions and, similarly, running UKBI casework and returns. I would also say on Clause 8 that one cannot know whether someone does not have leave, or has leave obtained by fraudulent means, and therefore the commander cannot leap straight to making arrangements for the return of such persons.

I have never been known not to support an amendment that requires consultation, and I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Browne, is not here to speak to his amendment, which seems to be in the usual formula. I thought it would be a rather good hook, and I will push it a little by saying that yesterday I received, as no doubt other noble Lords did, a briefing from the Bar Council, which refers to the importance of independent oversight and suggests that the independent inspector—I can never remember the words; the ICIBI—might have a role here. But since the amendment has not been spoken to, I had better not go that far.

We have Amendment 25 in this group. Again, it is a probing amendment. Under the Bill, the board is given a function to assist. But, as the commander’s functions are co-ordinating and setting priorities, perhaps “assist” cannot mean an operational role. My amendment proposing “advise” in place of “assist” probes how the Government envisage that the board will function and seeks to understand whether there is or is not—I assume there is not—any operational role here. Amendment 71 is in this group as well, but I will leave my noble friend to introduce that.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My noble friend Lord Browne of Ladyton is unable to be here and has therefore asked me to speak to his amendment. I tried to add my name, but it was too late for the deadline.

Clause 9 requires the commander to comply with directions and “have regard to guidance” by the Secretary of State about the exercise of the commander’s functions. The amendment requires the Secretary of State to

“consult such persons as the Secretary of State considers appropriate before issuing or revising directions or guidance”

under Clause 9. That is fine, but the issue is whether we will ever know what guidance the Secretary of State has given; in other words, the purpose of the amendment is to ensure that, when the Secretary of State issues this guidance, she shall act in a transparent manner and consult appropriate persons before issuing or revising directions or guidance under Clause 9. It is a matter of having some openness in how this thing happens; otherwise, we will never know quite what instructions have come from the Secretary of State.

I understand that the Law Society of Scotland produced a pretty good briefing on this. Although the amendment does not, of course, confine itself to Scotland but covers all parts of the United Kingdom, nevertheless, my noble friend and I are indebted to the briefing from the Law Society of Scotland. This is simply a bid for openness in the way in which the functions are to be exercised.

[Viscount Goschen (Con)]

My Lords, I support the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Cameron, which seek to flesh out what the role of this organisation is to be and to put more detail on objectives and functions. If one looks at the functions of the commander, one sees that the meat of this is really in two points made over four and a half lines, so it is very thin indeed. It is an organisation that has already been established, as we know, and there is already an incumbent, so I think it would help the Committee a great deal if the Minister were to explain what the organisation is really going to look like. We talk about the border commander as if it is an individual, and indeed that person is an individual, but then we go on to talk about the command—the organisation.

The Minister has talked in terms of hundreds of millions of pounds, potentially, at the disposal of this organisation, or if not at its disposal, then it would have a high degree of influence over it. These are very considerable sums of money when one considers the overall budget, for example, of the Border Force, so will the Minister set out what the actual border commander’s organisation, the BSC, will look like? On what sort of scale will it be, in terms of staff, for example? A figure of £150 million was mentioned that will, in essence, be put at the disposal of the commander. What does that mean? What is the operating budget of this organisation going to be? Can the noble Lord help us? To look at this as an organisation rather than as an individual, £150 million gets you a lot of co-ordination. Can we hear more about the structure, the functions, the skills of the staff that will be working there, the type of experience, the operating budget and what returns are sought on the budgets that are being put forward?

I welcome the opportunity for the Minister, in response to my noble friend’s amendments, and indeed the others that have been discussed, to come forward and help the Committee establish what type of organisation we are talking about. He might care to illustrate it through an example of how the new organisation will interact with the Border Force. Who is going to be, in a sense, holding the strategic priorities? Which organisation is going to have influence over the other? I am sure it would help the Committee a great deal if the Minister were able to do that.

Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill

Lord Dubs Excerpts

2nd reading
Monday 2nd June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for the very open way in which he has approached this whole subject, not just today but in weeks and months gone by. I also express my gratitude to the many NGOs and charitable organisations which have provided us with really superb briefing—almost too much of it. It took me most of yesterday to absorb some of it, but how helpful they have all been and how much work they have put into it. I shall say a little about relations with European Union countries, about safe and legal routes and about children, but let me start by saying just a bit about public opinion.

The whole debate about immigration and asylum has been bedevilled by the way in which public opinion has been quoted and what public opinion is believed to think. There are times when senior people in office—of either party—have a responsibility to talk about asylum seekers and refugees in ways which make local communities feel more sympathetic, rather than hostile. I remember walking down the road in Hammersmith many years ago, when we had earlier legislation, and somebody was shouting at me. Normally, when people shout at any of us, we know it is abuse, do we not? We have all had it happen to us. But oh no, she shouted at me, “Keep going with your amendments!” Not a dramatic slogan, but goodness me, I was so encouraged by it. I believe that we must, in debating these issues, be aware that public opinion has to be won over. It is no good saying that public opinion is always going to be hostile. It has to be won over. I welcome the measures in this Bill that will defeat smugglers and traffickers. There are things about the Bill I would like to see changed, and no doubt Committee will give us many opportunities to do that.

I turn to co-operation with EU countries. I understand that the Government have tried very hard to have better arrangements with EU countries, and there have been numerous discussions with France. It is a little concerning that we see or we hear reports on television that the French police do not have the power to deal with the boats once they are just offshore, and I believe the Government are going to deal with that. It is essential that we have better agreements with all these countries. We cannot defeat the smugglers and traffickers unless those agreements are based on firm and good co-operation. We have action plans with Italy and Germany; I think we need to do a little more with France. Perhaps the Minister could confirm that we are hopeful of having a new agreement before too long with the French. I welcome the Government’s firm commitment to the European Convention on Human Rights.

Let me turn for a little to safe and legal routes. We keep talking about them; I think they matter. I have met the people in Calais on several occasions, and it seems to me that they would not be there unless there was no other way of getting to safety. Some of them have good reasons for wanting to come to this country, such as family reunion or because they had an education here or they speak English. It is notable that when we had the Ukrainian programme—and there were faults with it—the fact is that, in all that time, only five or six Ukrainians actually came across on the channel. They were persuaded that there were other ways of getting to safety, and they made use of them.

I am concerned about immigration detention, and I hope that we can look in detail at the proposals for immigration detention, new detention powers and what safeguards there are for people who are being held in detention, not because they have necessarily committed any criminal offences. I am also a bit concerned about the Home Secretary’s powers to impose tagging and curfew requirements on anyone with limited leave to enter or remain in the UK. I have confidence that the present Home Secretary would use those powers properly, decently and responsibly, but, of course, it may be that the Home Secretary is changed from time to time, and we have to give them powers which do not depend on the humanity of the individual holding the office at the moment.

About 18 months’ ago, I visited Calais on one of many occasions, and I met children and young people who were trying to get to the UK. There were some from Sudan who said to me very clearly, “We can’t afford to pay a trafficker. We haven’t got the money. The only way we can get to the UK is if there is a trafficker who says, ‘You steer the boat over and you’ll get a free trip’”. That, of course, means that they are committing a criminal offence in this country. So it is a way, sadly, of making victims the people who are going to be punished. We have to be very careful about the way in which they use the criminal law in such a way. Of course, like everybody else, I would like to see the traffickers got rid of and their miserable, dangerous trade disappear.

I think the Bill should give an opportunity for family reunion, including for children who are outside the UK to be able to join family members here. We have had such legislation before, and it was passed, but somehow or other it then disappeared under the last Government as well. I hope that the Minister will be able to indicate what assessment the Government have made of the White Paper proposals to restrict family reunion rules. I think there are some restrictions there, particularly if the language and financial requirements are too onerous for people who do not have the money. I hope the Minister can respond to that. I wish the Minister well, and I thank him again for his willingness to be so open and discuss these issues both here and, of course, outside.

Immigration System

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 15th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The right reverend Prelate makes an important point. Integration is about communities reaching out and understanding each other’s differences, but looking at the areas they share and making sure that the pressures on any area of migration do not destabilise the community that those people who have come to this country are part of. That means that we need to make assessments of housing and public services, as well as employment. That is key to the details of the White Paper as a whole.

There will be further examination of the structural needs the right reverend Prelate has outlined and the need for, in our view, better performance on English language for people who are here. By better performance on English language, I am not downplaying the native language of anybody who comes here, but the ability to converse with fellow citizens is critical to integration. That is why we are putting emphasis on that in the White Paper. The points the right reverend Prelate mentioned are also equally important.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the measured tone my noble friend used in answering the question a few minutes ago. However, there are things about the White Paper which cause concern. Do we still have to include students in our net immigration figures? I know we have debated this before, but it seems that, if we could exclude students, the figures would be a bit more honest. I welcome the emphasis on the English language, but I am concerned about the way in which we have used expressions to describe what is going on. Integration in our local communities is surely helped if we have moderate language—the Minister himself used moderate language—to describe the whole immigration situation. In the last few days things have been said which, frankly, have not helped with the process of integration.

May I make two further quick comments? First, I am concerned about social care. I understand the arguments, but it may well be that our social care system, which is already in a state of collapse, will collapse even further. We need some sensitivity on that issue. Finally, on Article 8 and asylum seekers, I hope the Minister can give us more assurance on how this will work. It is mentioned in the White Paper and I hope he will give us further assurance that there will be no inadvertent knock-on from the White Paper into our policy on asylum seekers and refugees.

Knife Crime

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 6th May 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will draw the noble Baroness’s comments to the attention of the Minister for Justice, the noble Lord, Lord Timpson. Youth offending teams are the responsibility of the Ministry of Justice. But, as I mentioned, the Home Office is trying to invest in the Young Futures programme. Those initial hubs will not replace other types of activity, such as youth offending teams; they are there to generate a collective response from organisations to look at what is needed most to reduce knife crime. So there is new funding going in from the Home Office, and I will raise her point with the noble Lord, Lord Timpson, on her behalf.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, a few weeks ago, the Minister said he was looking at the possibility that the police might be equipped with handheld metal detectors as a way of stopping people in the street and seeing whether they had metal weapons on them. Has he made any progress in that direction?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Yes, I have. We are working with industry partners to develop the very systems that my noble friend has raised previously and again today. The work is part of an innovation competition that was launched last year. Phase 1 is expected to be delivered by the end of May, resulting in the first prototype systems, so I hope my noble friend will recognise that there is action this day.

Knife Crime: Stop and Search

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Tuesday 1st April 2025 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Dubs]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the effectiveness of stop and search in tackling knife crime.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

Stop and search is a fundamental tool for tackling knife crime, but it must be used fairly and effectively. Getting that balance right as part of a basket of measures is critical to this Government’s objective of halving knife crime in 10 years and restoring public trust in the police.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, today the Metropolitan Police has published its stop and search charter, which refers in particular to tensions between the black community and the police. Would the Minister consider urging that the police be equipped with hand-held metal detectors as an efficient and more sensitive method of conducting stop and search?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend raises an important point. The Home Office is working with industry partners, as it has been for a while, to develop the technology to detect from a distance knives concealed on the person. There are trials in place, and phase 1 is expected to be delivered by the end of May this year, resulting in a prototype system that could be used to do exactly what my noble friend says. Chief constables will have to decide on the use of that downstream, but I hope that will be of help to my noble friend. As part of the National Police Chiefs’ Council’s Police Race Action Plan, it is looking again at the very point he mentioned—the disproportionate stopping of people from black and minority ethnic communities.

Asylum Hotels and Illegal Channel Crossings

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 26th March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

If the noble Lord visits the Library and asks which benefits migrants receive, he will find that the Government have a responsibility to pay certain amounts of resource for upkeep but it is not a question of access to a benefits system. We are trying to ensure that we assess those individuals extremely quickly. If he is interested in illegal working then, as I mentioned earlier, we have increased visits and working arrests for those who have slipped into the country and are now working here illegally by 38%.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, everybody—with one or two exceptions—knows that the Government inherited an incredible mess. Are we satisfied that we are doing everything we can to ensure maximum co-operation with the French and with Interpol in catching the people traffickers? Secondly, surely in anything but the very short term we must have wider international co-operation, particularly with our EU friends, to deal with the problem of asylum seekers in a more sensible and balanced manner.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to my noble friend. My right honourable friend the Home Secretary has met her French, Belgian and Dutch counterparts and is looking at a group which we have named, imaginatively, the “Calais group” to see how we can act on these issues. That co-operation has led to increased convictions and arrests of people traffickers and will do so further. There are discussions with the German Government to see what we can do downstream about some of the equipment that is being supplied in Germany. When the immigration Bill comes before this House, noble Lords will recognise that there are measures in it which further criminalise those gangs and give further powers to the state to take assets from criminals who are people trafficking.

UK Airports: British Passport Holders

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 3rd March 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

That is an extremely sensible suggestion and one that I advocated 15 years ago when we were in government in 2009-10 and looking at that issue. I see my noble friend Lord West nodding; he was in the Home Office with me at that time. It is important that we know who comes in and goes out. One of our current migration challenges is people overstaying, so a main focus for the Government is how we can reduce that impact and make sure that people are in the UK legally at all times.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, can my noble friend comment on the proposed new arrangements governing travel between the UK and the EU? Can he say a bit more about when those arrangements will come into force? Are we ready to meet the bureaucratic and other difficulties that will follow from introducing them?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

The European Union, as is its right, is introducing an ETA for non-European Union members. One of the consequences of Brexit is that we are a non-EU member, so citizens of the United Kingdom will have to face that challenge in due course. As of now, there is no specific date for the introduction of the European transit arrangements, but that is coming downstream, so we need to examine it and take cognisance of it and its impact on a range of issues in relation to the United Kingdom.

Citizenship Applications

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Wednesday 12th February 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

Like the Prime Minister, I am not going to discuss individual cases over the Dispatch Box. The noble Lord will know that there are general principles, which we apply, for the provision of asylum. If those principles are broken or if the courts uphold a decision that the Government do not support, they will self-evidently appeal that decision. Today’s Private Notice Question from my noble friend Lord Blunkett is about the specific guidance issued on Monday, which is available to this House. In answer to a point from the noble Lord which I did not cover, it is guidance which does not require legal back-up or consultation. Self-evidently, he and my noble friend can make representations to the Government at any time, as can any Member of this House, about the implementation of that guidance.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, of course we all support the Government in taking tough action against the people traffickers as vile individuals, but can the Minister explain what the purpose of all this is? Is it meant to deter a young man in Calais who is hoping to get to this country? Will that young man look at the debate and say, “If I can’t get British citizenship, I’m not coming to the UK”? Of course not. Given the terrible circumstances that people have fled from, finding safety is surely much more important to them than the technicality of a passport, worthy as a passport is.

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

My noble friend has a long history of interest in and support for refugees and asylum seekers, and I respect and understand his position. The Government are trying to set down some basic red lines on a range of issues. The first red line is that people trafficking is a crime and will be pursued vigorously. The second is that the Rwanda scheme was ineffectual, and the third is that British citizenship is not a right but a privilege. That privilege will come to citizens if they enter this country under legal asylum routes or apply for citizenship through legal routes, but not if they have entered the country through an illegal route.

Asylum Seekers: Accommodation

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Thursday 16th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I will update the noble Lord in due course. As a rough estimate from memory, around 90 children are still unaccounted for. The importance of safeguarding in asylum accommodation is critical. It is ultimately the responsibility of the local authority where those children are placed. However, I take on board his suggestions and concerns; I will look into them and write to him. It is key to ensure that the safeguarding of unaccompanied children and accompanied children who are at risk is paramount.

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, whether it is a local authority or the Home Office, there is the difficulty for families who are moved around too much that the children lose their education and friends. It is very dislocating and destabilising. Can we have some continuity and awareness of that difficulty?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

It is vital, as my noble friend says, that we ensure continuity. The key point is that we get people out of asylum hotels and into dispersed accommodation as quickly as possible and, ultimately, speed up the asylum system so that people have a decision on whether they can stay or have to leave. If they can stay, that stability is there and, as the noble Lord, Lord German, mentioned, they can contribute to work and potentially help fill some of the labour shortages this country faces.

Immigration: Human Rights

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Monday 13th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I agree with the noble Baroness that climate change is a potential driver. The noble Lord, Lord Alton, has mentioned this on a number of occasions as well, and we agree that those issues drive asylum and refugee claims. She might be interested to know that the highest numbers of people claiming asylum last year were from Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iran. However, I accept her point; we need to address the wider climate change issue in relation to those who claim asylum or refugee status in this country

[Lord Dubs (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been waiting 14 years to say to a Home Office Minister, “I like his answers”. The Minister mentioned a forthcoming White Paper on asylum and refugees. Can he use his influence to ensure that the rights of children who are asylum seekers to join their families here will be high up on the list?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am really pleased that the noble Lord likes the answers—we have been waiting 14 years to give them, and it is a great pleasure to be here. We are progressing on the matter of child migrants; there are specific issues that we will look at on that. The number of unaccompanied child migrants is currently approximately 4,000, which is still too high. We need to look at the points that the noble Lord has mentioned. I hope that I will be able to give him some satisfactory answers in the future.