House of Lords Reform Bill [HL]

Lord Dubs Excerpts

Friday 21st October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, one is judged all too often by the company one keeps. I want to make it clear that the reason why my name is added to those who oppose Clause 10 has to do with a wider purpose which relates to Part 1. Therefore, I dissent entirely from the arguments that have been made so far on the clause stand part debate.

[The Earl of Caithness]

My Lords, I would like the clause to remain in the Bill. I say that on a straight point of principle because in 1999 many of us who disapproved of much of the House of Lords Act 1999 were assured that 92 hereditary Peers would remain in this House until there was a major reform of the House of Lords. Clearly, this Bill does not satisfy that criterion. When we last debated this last year, my noble friend Lord Steel argued that it did. He said that he had the support of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Irvine of Lairg, who was the Lord Chancellor in 1999, who had said that this Bill met the criteria that he had in mind for the second phase of reform of the House of Lords. However, my noble friend Lord Strathclyde pointed out that, notwithstanding that, it would have been unlikely that an agreement such as was reached in 1999 would have been reached with my noble friend had he known that this Bill would have constituted the desired reform.

Things have changed since then, because my noble friend Lord Steel has changed his mind about the Appointments Commission. There is a misunderstanding about the Appointments Commission. In a couple of conversations that I had during the Division, people who voted for my noble friend’s Motion were of the opinion that the Appointments Commission would not be discussed. It will. It is in the Bill. There are amendments to it. Regardless of whether it comes first or last, it will still be discussed. If my noble friend succeeds in removing Part 1, which covers the Appointments Commission, this will certainly not be a Bill to reform the House of Lords. That goes quite against the 1999 agreement. We agreed to that important principle—with hindsight, some of us against our better judgment; I should not have agreed; I should have continued to fight the cause of a proper reform of the House of Lords, a full reform to an elected Chamber, which is what I support. A number of very good working hereditary Peers left this House on an agreement. That agreement will be breached today if the clause is removed from the Bill. To me, that is totally unacceptable.

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Moved by

[Lord Dubs]

123: Clause 12, page 5, line 27, leave out “member of the House of Lords” and insert “Member of the Legislature”

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, I should offer a brief word of explanation. My amendment is one of a series that crosses from Part 1 to other parts of the Bill. I will have an opportunity to move it later, although I do not suppose that it will command much support.

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Lord Colwyn)]

If the noble Lord is going to speak to this amendment, he must move it.

[Lord Dubs]

I beg leave to move the amendment. It is part of a series of amendments intended to remove titles from those Members who wish to stay in the House. I am not sure that it will command very much support. I want to leave it for later in the Bill. For the moment, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Amendment 123 withdrawn.

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Moved by

[Lord Dubs]

137: After Clause 17, insert the following new Clause—
“Part 4AVoting at electionsVoting at elections to the House of Commons
(1) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, a Member of the Legislature shall not be disqualified by virtue of that post for voting at elections to the House of Commons.
(2) A Member of the Legislature shall be disqualified by virtue of that post for being, or being elected as, a Member of the House of Commons.
(3) For the avoidance of doubt, a Member of the House of Lords who ceased to be entitled to sit and vote in the House of Lords under section (Right to sit and vote in the House of Lords), shall not be disqualified for voting at elections to the House of Commons.”

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[Lord Dubs]

This amendment contains a very simple proposition. I think we are the only Members of a second Chamber in any democratic country in the world who do not have the right to vote in general elections. It seems to me that there is a point of principle here. Many of us campaign in elections. I have window bills up in my house, and yet I am not allowed to vote for reasons that have disappeared in the mists of history and which make no logical sense today. It would not be compulsory. Those Members of this House who feel that they should not vote would have the right not to go to the polling station, but people in history have died for the right to vote. It has been a fundamental principle in many countries in the world. I feel very deeply when I am not allowed to vote on election day, even though I take an active part in campaigning for the candidate or candidates of my choice. The proposition is very simple. It will not change anything fundamental but will give us the right on polling day to exercise a democratic right. For those people who say that we are in the legislature and therefore we have other chances, the point of voting is to choose or influence the Government of this country. That is the right that we do not have as Members of this legislature, unless we are given the right to vote. I beg to move.

[Viscount Astor]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, for one very simple reason: while canvassing at the previous election, I knocked at a door and said, “I very much hope that you’ll vote Conservative at the forthcoming election”. The answer was, “I might. Did you at the last election?”. I was forced to say no, so the lady said, “Well, neither shall I”.

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[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

I promise to pursue that.

[Lord Dubs]

My Lords, given the widespread support throughout the House, I do not honestly see that there is any significant problem about this. We would simply be on the voting list and could vote as we can in European elections, in Scottish elections if we live there, or in Welsh or in Northern Irish elections. We would just have the right to vote. It would make no difference at all in practice. The local authorities would simply have an easier task when compiling the voting list.

On the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Wright, Members of Parliament might not technically be Members of the Commons when an election is called, but they can vote in a by-election. I very much hope that we can proceed to a decision. Everyone whose opinion I test in the country thinks that this is an anomaly and absurd. The world will not come to an end, but democracy will be enhanced.

[Lord Higgins]

On the suggestion that the amendment is withdrawn, my noble friend Lord Steel has made a very clear offer. The amendment does require further consideration, not least because Members who are not present today may well have a view. We can certainly come back to this on Report or at Third Reading.

[Lord Steel of Aikwood]

Perhaps we could reach a compromise the other way around. I am quite happy to accept the amendment on the understanding that we will have further discussions. If it is found to be objectionable, for some reason which we do not understand now, we could come back to it on Report and take it out again. At the moment, let us keep it in. On that basis, I am happy to accept the amendment.

[Lord Dubs]

I am delighted with what the noble Lord has said. On that basis, I commend the amendment to the House.

Amendment 137 agreed.