Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Lord Deben Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Grand Committee

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

My Lords, I add my support to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in trying to get energy efficiency as part of our infrastructure plans. I am also very pleased to support my noble friend Lord Jenkin. Interestingly, I also knew of the quote from the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, and, if he had not used it, I would have done.

I realise that it is always difficult for a Minister to accept anything and I am not really expecting the noble Baroness to do that today, but in the light of what has been said it is important that she can confirm that she will talk very seriously about this to her colleagues. It is clear that she has other ministerial support—it is not just coming from the people talking here in Committee. So I hope that she can do that.

I am particularly concerned, coming from the north-east, for the job creation opportunities of energy efficiency. We have already seen it happening there. One problem is that the economy may be booming in the south-east but it has not been booming quite so much in the north-east. This is one area in which we do quite well and, if the Government take this seriously, we can do even better.

I have one little point to make on a comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, about the energy efficiency of this building. In the Royal Gallery there is a display about the works that they are doing in the Houses of Parliament. I noticed just this morning that in renewing the iron roofs they are putting in insulation.

I support what has been said in general and urge the Minister to take this seriously and perhaps come back on Report with something that we can all support.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for missing the first minute of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I support the amendment. It has always seemed to me that there is a need to find a way in which to make energy efficiency more attractive to politicians, and I think that the noble Lord may have discovered that mechanism. The trouble with politicians is that they like boys’ toys, and it is always better to build something big that you can point to, so that in your dotage—which of course none of us is anywhere near—you can say to your great-grandchildren, “I built that great monstrosity there; it was one of the reasons why I felt that I had done something”. I fear that that is quite deep in the psyche of politicians. It is always easier to build or make something and then to have something to point to. Very often, those are important activities, but it always means that energy efficiency is at the bottom of the pile.

When I was the Minister responsible in the Department of the Environment, there was a tendency to ensure that those who dealt with energy efficiency were perhaps not the most exciting of people—not perhaps as thrusting or pressing as those who dealt with the big projects. I am sure that that is no longer true and that now we have people of immense thrust, but it is important to give them some help and support. This amendment does that.

We have had today the welcome decision by the Government that the Committee on Climate Change was indeed right to say that there is no basis for changing the fourth carbon budget. So we know what we have to meet. In that circumstance, energy efficiency is a crucial part. Members of the Committee should refer to the document that the climate change committee presented to Parliament only last week—I declare an interest as its chairman. It is interesting that when we produced our review of climate change action over the past five years—it also looks forward—no one from the global warming body that opposes these things was present. Nobody was there to find out the facts. Nobody bothered to turn up. It is worth saying as often as possible that those who deny climate change or dismiss its importance rarely appear to listen to the facts. In that document we make it clear that in fact the Government have so far, with their partners, met their targets. That of course has been helped, if that is the right word, by the recession. Again, we should congratulate the Government on saying that they are not going to take advantage of that additional success by reducing the requirement in successive carbon budgets.

It is a good idea to say when Governments get things right, particularly if one is going to say something about getting it wrong. The bit they have got wrong is that we have not got the energy efficiency operation anywhere near where it has to be if we are to meet our budget. As my noble friend Lady Maddock rightly said, the Minister will find it difficult to accept this amendment here and now. However, perhaps I may end by saying why I hope she will make sure that it is accepted before the Bill is passed. By making the amendment part of our infrastructure programme, we give to it precisely that attraction—the big picture—which it lacks if we are talking about a whole series of small things, which is the point that my noble friend Lord Jenkin made and which the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, himself made in his recent intervention.

I very much hope, therefore, that my noble friend will accept that this issue is crucial to meeting our carbon budgets. Those budgets have been reaffirmed today. Would it not be a good thing to celebrate that reaffirmation by accepting in principle, if not in practice at this moment, that the amendment should be part of the Bill?

[Lord Teverson (LD)]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord Deben will be delighted to know that last week I quoted his report several times in this Grand Committee in relation to zero-carbon homes. There were some useful data there. Also in this Grand Committee last week I welcomed the report by DECC on energy investment. The DCLG Minister at that time, though helpful, was not so interested in it. However, I congratulate DECC on its work on this issue, together with the £45 billion in investment. As the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, said, there is a whole section about energy efficiency in the report. It is the final section, and it would be nice if it moved up to the top, but it is indicative that recognition of the importance of this area is increasing.

The report, whose language I really like, states:

“There are £45-£60 billion worth of … investment opportunities”

still to be had. That looks good and we think, “Great, we can do more”, but what it means is that there is still some £65 billion-worth of work yet to be done on energy efficiency in the UK.

I can see that the Government are going in the right direction on this, but it is important to hardwire these issues into the decision-making process. This amendment provides one of the ways of starting to do that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

I thank the noble Lord for that explanation, which certainly underlines the point I am trying to make. As I have said, I hope that lots of new housing estates are built over the next few years, so DECC and DCLG ought to look very carefully at this issue and consider how community heating schemes might be improved. The advantages are huge. For a start, they are much more efficient and thus would justify proper investment either in the new type of boiler that is required or in the overall management of the heat. In rural areas, for instance, it is often hard to justify piping gas into villages, which is obviously the cheapest form of heat, but it could be much more worth while in cases where there is a major community heating unit so that gas can be brought in to provide fuel for that one particular source of heat. That is certainly better for climate change than putting oil boilers into each and every house because that involves a huge waste of oil and energy.

[Lord Deben]

Does the noble Lord also agree that the ideal use of pumps, both air and earth pumps, is in new build? And yet, as my noble friend has pointed out, that is precisely the area which is not covered by the present arrangements. It would make a huge difference if that were to happen and it would certainly help towards achieving really eco-friendly new homes.

--- Later in debate ---

The Government through the Green Deal has awarded £88 million in funding for local authorities to promote the Green Deal, and £450 million has been committed to incentivise the Green Deal uptake. I say that in response to my noble friend Lord Jenkin. The Government are doing a lot of work in trying to meet energy efficiency and reducing demand. I hope that, given the measures that we are taking forward, the noble Lords, Lord Whitty and Lord Judd, whose names are on the amendments, feel reassured that the requirements for which they ask are already being fulfilled. Therefore, further legislation is really not needed.

[Lord Deben]

I am impressed by the Minister’s statements and very much support them, but I do not quite understand why it would not be satisfactory to include this in the Infrastructure Bill. If we are doing all these things, perhaps the Government will not find it too onerous to do so. Surely she would agree that it would mean that we would put it in the right context, with the other things being done on infrastructure. I hope that, despite her feelings before the debate, she will accept that the debate suggests that it would be worth while thinking about this again and putting something in the Bill. I cannot see that there is any down side to that; I see a lot of upside, but as yet I cannot detect a down side.

[Baroness Verma]

I thank my noble friend for his intervention. However, I would err on the side of caution: if we do not look at this in greater detail, we might inadvertently restrict ourselves from looking at other technologies that may come on stream by putting into legislation things that are going to be restricted because we have mandated it in the legislation, when we are already doing many things that meet what noble Lords are asking for. It would probably be much more constructive to be able to say that this would not be necessary, given that we are already doing it. However, as with all things, I am very happy to talk to noble Lords outside the Room to see where they feel that I am not fulfilling this condition.

I would like to respond to the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, about new build and RHI. I do not have the details for that here, but perhaps he would allow me to write to him and send copies to other Members of the Committee.

I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, will withdraw his amendment.