Infrastructure Bill [HL]

Baroness Maddock Excerpts

Tuesday 22nd July 2014 Grand Committee

[Lord Judd (Lab)]

My Lords, I often find myself in agreement with my noble friend. Not infrequently, I find myself in strong agreement. On this occasion, I find myself in particularly strong agreement with his amendment and was very glad to see it.

I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, for whom I have tremendous respect, although I do not spend a lot of my time agreeing with him on political matters, spoke on this amendment. It is one of the nice things about this House. I like him and have come to respect him tremendously over the years. It is good to have a word of good wishes from him on the subject matter of the amendment.

This is an incredibly important amendment. We want to have the energy necessary to enable Britain to be an effective economic power. We also, I hope by now, have central to our strategy a concern for the well-being of our children and grandchildren and of future generations in terms of climate change. There is therefore a tension between the demand for more energy and the demand to make sure that the well-being of future generations is protected.

When we are discussing climate change, all the right things are often said, but when we come to legislation that is highly relevant to delivering the goods in terms of what is necessary in policy, it gets to the bottom of the pile or gets forgotten altogether. I am very glad that my noble friend drew attention to some of the publications in which this was true.

I shall give one personal experience which rather disturbed me. A couple of years ago, I was at a gathering of businessmen not far from where I live. They were discussing energy and the contribution our part of the world could make to the energy production that is necessary. In a good way, the discussion began to be quite personal, and people started talking about their ambitions for their children. One person after another was saying how they would love to see their son or daughter going into engineering as a career and how in Britain we need to take this more seriously. They talked about engineering this and engineering that, but not one said, “I would love to see my son or daughter working as an engineer in the sphere of energy conservation and energy efficiency”. It is something to do with our culture.

I know that I go home with a sense of anxiety that we are saying the right things about climate change and the rest of it, but so much energy is still wasted at night here in our building. It is better than it used to be, but it is still going on—and that profoundly disturbs me, in the context of leadership. We want to get into the strategic planning and the context in which everything is taking place—firmly there, at the head of the stated principles—the fact that energy conservation is a priority that must be given pride of place.

I am very glad that my noble friend has introduced this amendment. I am looking at the clock. If we have not completed our consideration of this amendment by 4.30 pm I hope that I will be forgiven by the Committee for leaving. The Ecclesiastical Committee is meeting at that time for a particularly important matter—to approve the Synod’s recommendation on the ordination of women bishops—and I really feel that on such an historic occasion those on all sides of the Committee will forgive me if I have to leave before the end of the debate on the amendment.

[Baroness Maddock (LD)]

My Lords, I add my support to the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, in trying to get energy efficiency as part of our infrastructure plans. I am also very pleased to support my noble friend Lord Jenkin. Interestingly, I also knew of the quote from the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, and, if he had not used it, I would have done.

I realise that it is always difficult for a Minister to accept anything and I am not really expecting the noble Baroness to do that today, but in the light of what has been said it is important that she can confirm that she will talk very seriously about this to her colleagues. It is clear that she has other ministerial support—it is not just coming from the people talking here in Committee. So I hope that she can do that.

I am particularly concerned, coming from the north-east, for the job creation opportunities of energy efficiency. We have already seen it happening there. One problem is that the economy may be booming in the south-east but it has not been booming quite so much in the north-east. This is one area in which we do quite well and, if the Government take this seriously, we can do even better.

I have one little point to make on a comment made by the noble Lord, Lord Judd, about the energy efficiency of this building. In the Royal Gallery there is a display about the works that they are doing in the Houses of Parliament. I noticed just this morning that in renewing the iron roofs they are putting in insulation.

I support what has been said in general and urge the Minister to take this seriously and perhaps come back on Report with something that we can all support.

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I apologise for missing the first minute of the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Whitty. I support the amendment. It has always seemed to me that there is a need to find a way in which to make energy efficiency more attractive to politicians, and I think that the noble Lord may have discovered that mechanism. The trouble with politicians is that they like boys’ toys, and it is always better to build something big that you can point to, so that in your dotage—which of course none of us is anywhere near—you can say to your great-grandchildren, “I built that great monstrosity there; it was one of the reasons why I felt that I had done something”. I fear that that is quite deep in the psyche of politicians. It is always easier to build or make something and then to have something to point to. Very often, those are important activities, but it always means that energy efficiency is at the bottom of the pile.

When I was the Minister responsible in the Department of the Environment, there was a tendency to ensure that those who dealt with energy efficiency were perhaps not the most exciting of people—not perhaps as thrusting or pressing as those who dealt with the big projects. I am sure that that is no longer true and that now we have people of immense thrust, but it is important to give them some help and support. This amendment does that.

We have had today the welcome decision by the Government that the Committee on Climate Change was indeed right to say that there is no basis for changing the fourth carbon budget. So we know what we have to meet. In that circumstance, energy efficiency is a crucial part. Members of the Committee should refer to the document that the climate change committee presented to Parliament only last week—I declare an interest as its chairman. It is interesting that when we produced our review of climate change action over the past five years—it also looks forward—no one from the global warming body that opposes these things was present. Nobody was there to find out the facts. Nobody bothered to turn up. It is worth saying as often as possible that those who deny climate change or dismiss its importance rarely appear to listen to the facts. In that document we make it clear that in fact the Government have so far, with their partners, met their targets. That of course has been helped, if that is the right word, by the recession. Again, we should congratulate the Government on saying that they are not going to take advantage of that additional success by reducing the requirement in successive carbon budgets.

It is a good idea to say when Governments get things right, particularly if one is going to say something about getting it wrong. The bit they have got wrong is that we have not got the energy efficiency operation anywhere near where it has to be if we are to meet our budget. As my noble friend Lady Maddock rightly said, the Minister will find it difficult to accept this amendment here and now. However, perhaps I may end by saying why I hope she will make sure that it is accepted before the Bill is passed. By making the amendment part of our infrastructure programme, we give to it precisely that attraction—the big picture—which it lacks if we are talking about a whole series of small things, which is the point that my noble friend Lord Jenkin made and which the noble Lord, Lord Deighton, himself made in his recent intervention.

I very much hope, therefore, that my noble friend will accept that this issue is crucial to meeting our carbon budgets. Those budgets have been reaffirmed today. Would it not be a good thing to celebrate that reaffirmation by accepting in principle, if not in practice at this moment, that the amendment should be part of the Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Cameron of Dillington]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention and I am glad that my remarks are invoking a certain amount of support. I totally agree with him: ground source or air source heat pumps, particularly on a large scale, are very efficient in climate change terms due to the reduction in the emission of greenhouse gases. Obviously one of the disadvantages is that you have to cost in the piping of hot water. Even with photovoltaics, the cost of those come down by something like 24% every time the number is doubled. There is a huge advantage in encouraging this because I am sure that the cost of pipes would come down, too.

Another advantage is that, as technology changes and sources of heat and efficiency go up and down, it takes only one change to get the whole community on to the most efficient fuel, burner or heat source. That is much more likely to happen than changing all the heat sources in all the houses. As I say, as our housing infrastructure catches up with the nation’s needs over the next few years—as I really hope it will, particularly in terms of affordable housing—DECC and DCLG ought to get together and ensure that these sorts of scheme are encouraged in new-build houses.

[Baroness Maddock]

My Lords, I support the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, in looking at community heating. I recommend that he looks at the district heating scheme in Southampton set up many years ago. I was a councillor at the time. Alan Whitehead, the MP there, and I set that up together. Barratt Homes put a new block of flats on to that scheme. We are going back nearly 20 years, but those schemes work.

There is a housing estate in Pimlico that still has a district heating scheme. I live in a flat in Dolphin Square when I am here and am really sorry that the owners of the square came off that scheme. Ever since, we have had gas boilers. Sometimes we do not have hot water. That never happened under the district heating scheme. Those are two schemes that have been successful. I wish the Government would use some of these examples to encourage other people to take this scheme up, as it works. People used to say that it was very difficult for the reason the noble Lord gave—they want their own boiler. However, it has been done successfully and where people have it, they are very satisfied.

[Baroness Worthington (Lab)]

My Lords, when you have had such a rich and excellent debate, you find yourself in the position where everything you were going to say has been said before you by very eminent and noble people. I thank everyone for their contributions to this debate.

We are very supportive of this amendment in principle. I look forward to hearing from the Minister some, I hope, positive words about how the Government will take this proposal forward in principle and introduce it into the Bill during its passage. It is clear that, when we look at the Infrastructure Bill as a whole, this area represents something of a missed opportunity under this Government. Of the pipeline of infrastructure projects in the UK that the Treasury has collated into its Excel spreadsheet, more than half are energy projects. It is the single biggest sector in terms of the value of projects in that list. Energy is central and fundamental to any infrastructure policy. Yet here we are with not very much in the energy part of this Bill to start with. A few amendments have been added but this is really a missed opportunity to set out a very strong and strategic direction.

I am sure that the Minister will point to the fact that we spent much of last year talking about energy in the energy market reform package but that is still being implemented. On Thursday, we meet to discuss some of the detail of the statutory instruments and there are still significant issues that were debated during the process that are unresolved. I would argue that energy efficiency is one of them.

I am delighted that the noble Lord, Lord Deben, raised the fact that today we saw the Government finally remove the question mark hanging over the fourth carbon budget. It was a recommendation from the Committee on Climate Change that was accepted but a rather insidious caveat was inserted that it would be subject to review. This has been hanging over the carbon budgeting process for some time. Today we saw final clarification that the fourth carbon budget will remain as drafted, as it is in law, and will not be subject to review. That is a very good thing. I particularly extend congratulations to the noble Lord for the work that I am sure he and his committee did in trying to ensure that the Government saw logic on this issue. I also commend the Government for listening to logic and ruling out any changes to that fourth carbon budget.

However, as the noble Lord pointed out, this now has quite serious implications for policy. The first implication is that we must—must—secure a 40% greenhouse gas reduction target in Europe if we are to have a chance of meeting our targets in the traded sector. In the non-traded sector, which means the heat market and the transport market, we will have to up our game significantly and improve the energy efficiency of our transport and heat networks. That is really the nub of this amendment. For too long, we have ignored those essential components of energy policy. How we heat our buildings, homes, offices and industries and our transportation have been sidelined in favour of big glamorous projects in the power sector. There has been—although I hope it is shifting—a perception in the department responsible for energy that real men build power stations. I have heard anecdotally that there have been posters to that effect in certain parts of the department. I hope that they have now been expunged. We have women in that department now, which is great, and a new member in the shape of Amber Rudd who I am sure will contribute greatly.

Energy is not just about cutting ribbons on large projects. It is much more complex than that. It involves massive amounts of infrastructure, which extends all the way to the buildings, housing, homes and roads that we use to transport ourselves and to live and work in. Those aspects of infrastructure should be front and centre in any infrastructure project. It will have escaped no one’s attention that energy security and reducing our reliance on imported energy are of huge importance, particularly in current times. The most sensible way to do that is to reduce the amount of energy you need to use in the first place. That is why energy efficiency is now receiving far greater attention at European level and why we in the UK should similarly up our game on this aspect in meeting our carbon budget and in helping people to occupy, live in and work in buildings that are fit for the 21st century. I see this as fundamental to the question of infrastructure. How we transport ourselves and what we live in is part of our infrastructure. It ought to be in the Bill.

There is another important point. My noble friend’s amendment covers existing infrastructure and new infrastructure. It is important that if we are embarking on this large programme of infrastructure spend, we do so wisely with energy efficiency front and centre in everything we do. This amendment is not simply about retrofitting existing infrastructure. It also requires us when we are embarking on infrastructure projects to think carefully about the energy efficiency of those projects.

People might be considering how we make this real and what energy efficiency looks like. I have three examples. I mentioned our housing stock: we have among the worst housing stock in Europe. It is appalling that a country of our wealth and history should have people living in fuel poverty in damp and unheatable homes. This has to be stopped. We have to make sure that our housing stock is upgraded to give us warm and healthy homes to live in. It is not just that. There are also large swathes of commercial and retail buildings that could be re-engineered to become smart buildings and upgraded so that they use energy wisely and minimise the amount they use.

There is also lighting. There is huge potential for reduction in emissions and energy demand from lighting from the new LED lighting that is coming on board. When we are building roads and extending infrastructure, we should be planning to have the most efficient and up-to-date technologies that will save us money in the long run.

I do not want to detain the Committee any longer. This has been an amazing debate—I thank all noble Lords for their contributions. I am very much looking forward to the Minister’s response. I hope that before the legislation reaches the statute book, we will see a positive response to these amendments.