Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations 2012

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2012 Grand Committee

Moved By

[Lord De Mauley]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) (Amendment) Regulations 2012.

Relevant document: 9th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, these regulations seek to set new recovery and recycling targets for packaging waste for 2013 to 2017.

Packaging performs an important role. Last year 11 million tonnes of packaging were used in the United Kingdom to get products from where they were produced to where they were consumed with minimal damage and wastage. However, once packaging has fulfilled its purpose, the question becomes: what should be done with it? Reusing packaging would be ideal but as this is not possible in many cases, recycling is usually the best option for recovering the value—in both economic and environmental terms.

The Government want the UK to move towards a zero-waste economy. Rather than an economy where no waste at all is produced, we envisage one where resources are fully valued. We want to see material resources reused, recycled or recovered wherever possible, and only disposed of as a last resort. The targets before the Committee today will play an important part in achieving this vision. They will help the UK go further in recovering the value of discarded packaging materials and help tackle the wasteful practice of burying them in landfill.

Furthermore, like other EU countries, the UK is required by the EU directive on packaging and packaging waste to recover each year a minimum 60% of all packaging waste, of which 55% must be recycled. Within this overall target, there are also recycling targets for individual packaging material types, including metal, paper, glass, plastic and wood. The UK achieves these targets through the producer responsibility system we have put in place, established by the Producer Responsibility Obligations (Packaging Waste) Regulations 2007.

The existing regulations set recycling targets for packaging producers until the end of 2012. We now need to put measures in place to ensure that the UK continues to meet the EU packaging recycling targets in future years, and to ensure packaging waste continues to be recycled. If we do not, this will result in the removal of important financial support for the recycling system in this country, and we can expect current recycling rates to drop. Furthermore, we can expect costly infraction proceedings for failing to implement the EU directive. However, there is a more important reason for these targets. As valuable resources for our industries get scarcer and more expensive, we need processes in place to recycle properly and recover them to maintain as much of their value as we can in the economy. The proposed targets for the period 2013-17 will maintain the current levels of recycling of paper, wood and glass. They will also set a trajectory for increased recycling of aluminium, which we want to see increase by 3 percentage points per year; plastic, by 5 percentage points per year; and steel, by 1 percentage point per year.

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[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

In making that comment, the noble Lord reinforces his point that engagement with the industry is a wise course, alongside engagement with the recycling industry, which stands to gain more business and more employment as a result of these regulations.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I start by thanking noble Lords for taking the time to get into this very complicated subject and to debate these important issues today. I listened very carefully to the points made, including to very specific concerns about aspects of the regulations, and will try to answer as many of them as I can. Before I respond to the points about targets, I will address concerns raised about the process of developing the regulations.

First, I assure the Committee that all responses received to the consultation were given due consideration, and that information presented was taken into account when building the evidence. I can only apologise sincerely to my noble friend Lord Jenkin for the time it took him to get a meeting. I will add that I hear clearly the message of my noble friend Lord Lindsay. As part of the consultation process, my department considered carefully the advice of the Advisory Committee on Packaging. This is an important body that represents most of the packaging chain.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin suggested that the Explanatory Memorandum accompanying the regulation did not provide an accurate summary of the consultation responses received, and that opposition to the plastics targets was not properly represented. The memorandum states that overall, taken as a whole, respondents to the consultation were supportive of increasing the targets. However, it acknowledged that there was some concern about the level of increase for certain materials, notably plastics. I ask my noble friend to accept that this reflected the fact that the plastics producers who opposed the preferred option on the grounds that it was unachievable represented between 10% and 15% of the total obligated tonnage for plastics. The majority of respondents who expressed a preference supported the higher targets; only a minority expressly opposed them.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

Does the Minister think that the two trade associations whose representatives he met, the British Plastics Federation and the Packaging and Films Association, represent only a small part of the industry? That is not the impression they gave me.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the calculations I have been given indicate what I have just stated. Furthermore, I understand that there were opposing views even among the members of those associations who responded to the consultation. I do not argue with the fact that there has been opposition and that it is important to consider it. Indeed, I have and am considering it.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I have a question about the Advisory Committee on Packaging. It used to be an arm’s-length body, but after the review it was taken into Defra. I think that this Committee would find it valuable to know what opposition was expressed within that committee. Is the Minister willing to publish the minutes of the advisory committee’s meetings to see how the debate was represented?

[Lord De Mauley]

If I may, I shall come to the advisory committee later in the debate.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to his concerns about the achievability of the targets. I shall go into some detail on that because I think it will be helpful to noble Lords. The 42% recycling rate was consulted on and, as I said, the majority of the consultation responses supported the proposal. I acknowledge that the target is challenging and we will monitor progress closely, calling on the expertise of the Advisory Committee on Packaging. In responding to the consultation, waste companies, reprocessors and local authorities felt that the infrastructure was sufficient to deal with demand and that further infrastructure would come on stream by 2017 to cope with increased supply and demand—I think that that is the question to which the noble Lord, Lord Knight, referred. The quality of recyclates is also something that the Government take seriously. My officials are working on an action plan, to which my noble friend referred, to address the quality of recyclates, and it will be published shortly.

I turn now to the targets themselves. As I say, it might be helpful to noble Lords if I go into a little detail on these. Defra has conducted a full analysis of how the targets can be achieved. As with any projections, assumptions have been made. That is why we exposed our analysis to scrutiny through public consultation and we asked industry if we had got it right. Most of the organisations that will be required to collect, sort and reprocess the additional material thought that the higher targets would be achievable. However, as we heard today, some in the plastics manufacturing industry remain concerned about the achievability of the plastics targets. Officials have met representatives of the industry and, as my noble friend said, I myself have met them. I have carefully reviewed the concerns raised and the evidence provided.

I will take the different targets in turn, starting with plastic bottles. The lion’s share of hitting this target will fall to bottle recycling. Good progress has been made, with the UK now recycling just over half of the bottles that are thrown away. However, around 240,000 tonnes of household plastic bottles that are disposed of in households with access to plastic bottle recycling collection points still end up in landfill. This makes no sense. The material has a value of at least £18 million. We must get it out of landfill and into recycling. This can be done relatively cheaply because the infrastructure is already in place. Nearly every local authority in the country is collecting bottles, while the sorting and reprocessing infrastructure is well established and the end markets are thriving. The key to capturing thousands more tonnes of plastic bottles is communication. I want to see industry and local authorities working together to communicate to the householder. For example, the plastics industry could follow the model adopted by the metal packaging and reprocessing industry under its “Metal Matters” campaign, which has increased householder participation in recycling schemes by up to 40%.

The other source of plastic packaging we expect to make a major contribution to achieving the targets is from the commercial and industrial sector. Our estimates suggest that a significant tonnage is currently being recycled but is not being counted by the PRN system. Indeed, in 2005 almost 350,000 tonnes of commercial and industrial plastic packaging was collected for recycling compared with apparently less than 280,000 tonnes in 2010. We believe that the disappearance of 70,000 tonnes was largely because there was no need for the material to be counted towards meeting the recycling targets, but that it actually continues to be recycled outside the PRN system.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

Does the Minister not recognise that with that additional amount put in, it will simply be a question of counting it? It will not get any more, because it is very nearly complete. A vast quantity of the commercial and industrial plastic weight is already being dealt with. Therefore, how can there possibly be a substantial amount still to go to meet the targets? I am sorry; the argument simply does not stand up.

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[Lord De Mauley]

All I am suggesting is that, as a contributor to the target, there is 70,000 tonnes or thereabouts available which is not currently being counted.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

It is happening.

[Lord De Mauley]

It is happening, but it is not counted in the current targets: that is the point. Of course, we will need to look at other plastics streams.

[Lord Jenkin of Roding]

It is a mockery.

[Lord De Mauley]

This includes recycling more plastic pots, tubs and trays and more plastic films. We recognise that increasing the collection and recycling of these types of plastic represents a challenge, but we are seeing some encouraging trends. For example, in the past four years more than 100 local authorities have introduced collections for pots, tubs and trays. This has seen the recycling rate for these items more than treble over the past five years from 5% in 2008 to 18% now. To meet the proposed plastic recycling target we are looking for the recycling rate to increase from the current 18% to 28% over the next five years. There is also a range of planned waste policies that will encourage local authorities to collect a wider range of plastics for recycling. In particular, WRAP is investing £5 million, through its mixed plastics loan fund, by which it means to deliver, by 2015, a further 100,000 tonnes of recycled pots, tubs and trays—double the 50,000 tonnes we anticipate will be needed from this stream to meet the overall target.

Of course, the higher packaging recycling target being debated today will help provide extra stimulus for local authorities to roll out collections and for MRF operators to invest in new sorting technology to handle a wider range of plastics. Other waste policies will encourage greater collection of plastics. These include the landfill tax, which is set on an increasing scale, making disposal of these items less economically attractive, and the revised waste framework directive, with its focus on separate collection of plastics and other dry recyclates by 2015.

We recognise that there are concerns about infrastructure capacity. However, I understand that most new sorting facilities, or MRFs, are being designed to handle mixed plastics or will have suitable capacity to add additional materials at a later date to support changes to local authority collection services. Furthermore, the Environmental Services Association, the main trade body for waste management companies, has stated that there are plans for an additional 6.6 million tonnes of MRF capacity to come on stream between 2013 and 2017. On that basis, the 50,000 tonnes of additional plastic anticipated should be manageable.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to glass and asked about meetings. There was recently a meeting with British Glass to discuss the targets for 2012. I am not aware of wider requests for meetings from the glass sector. It is important to recognise that the glass targets before your Lordships today are flat and only slightly above the minimum 60% necessary to achieve the target set in the EU directive.

I listened carefully to concerns about the costs of the new regulations on certain business sectors. I ask noble Lords to accept that this needs to be seen in the context of the overwhelming benefit to the economy as a whole, including the UK’s recycling and reprocessing industry. Most businesses on which the obligation to meet the proposed targets will fall are in favour of them. In setting them, we sought to balance the costs to businesses, and we did not increase them unless there was a sound business case for doing so.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin asked about exports. I am fully supportive of the need for a level playing field. As part of the ongoing review of the packaging regulations, we are exploring the issue and considering options for how it may be addressed. I believe that there is significant scope for growth in domestic demand for recovered plastic. Security of feedstock has been cited as discouraging some reprocessors from entering the market. We believe that the proposed targets will provide greater confidence in supply, plus the financial support to enable investment in increasing domestic reprocessing capacity.

My noble friend Lord Jenkin referred to the Advisory Committee on Packaging suggesting lower plastic targets in its report of work carried out in 2010-11. The ACP’s response to the consultations actually supported the Government’s preferred option of higher plastic packaging recycling targets. Its report of work in 2011-12, published earlier this year, confirmed its advice that the higher plastic packaging targets suggested by the Government would be achievable provided that there was an increase in the provision of collection infrastructure and that participation rates increased. Furthermore, more new infrastructure is, as I have said, coming on stream to cope with supply and demand.

My noble friends Lord Jenkin and Lord Lindsay asked for a mid-term formal review. I think that I can go further than that. I assure the Committee that my department will monitor progress throughout the period in question and will take appropriate action if needed. The ACP has a standing agenda item at its quarterly meeting to review packaging recycling achievement data and to advise Defra on trends and impacts on achievability going forward. I will keep a close eye on that. I am also happy, as my noble friend requested, for discussions to continue between those he represents and my officials.

My noble friend Lord Lindsay suggested—perhaps I am paraphrasing him unfairly—that Defra used its own evidence. Defra used a range of evidence sources, including WRAP research on collection costs, industry data on waste from groups such as PackFlow and the ACP, as well as evidence submitted as part of the consultation.

[The Earl of Lindsay]

My Lords, I will clarify what I said because the paraphrase did not quite catch the point that I was trying to make, which was that the evidence that the department used to underpin the regulations currently before us was not seen by key players in the industry until such a late stage of the process that, while they had reservations and doubts about some of it, there was no time to properly discuss it with the department before it became a fait accompli.

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[Lord De Mauley]

I accept that, my Lords. I apologise to my noble friend. I hope that I have covered the point quite extensively in the debate.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked what would happen beyond 2017. That is some way in the future. I am clearly not in a position to answer it now. It is one of the things that will be taken into account as we move forward. I referred to the review process that will be going on. I hope that that helps him.

The noble Lord asked for the publication of the ACP minutes. I would need to talk to the committee. Perhaps I cannot go quite so far as to commit to doing so in this Committee, but I will certainly look into the possibility. He also asked about the criteria used to set the different targets for different materials. There was a comprehensive cost-benefit analysis. If it would be helpful to noble Lords who have participated in the debate, I am happy to send them documentation to support that.

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[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am responsible.

Motion agreed.

Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Tuesday 6th November 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord De Mauley]

That the draft Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012 laid before the House on 12 July be approved.

Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments. Considered in Grand Committee on 24 October.

[Baroness Oppenheim-Barnes]

My Lords, for many years I have been deeply concerned about all the issues that these regulations deal with. Unfortunately, I was not able to attend the Committee, but I read the reports and in particular the careful Explanatory Note that went with the regulations. I pay tribute to the Government for the work that they have done in a difficult and emotive, although narrow, field. We cannot have a full answer, but they have given us something which I believe to be very acceptable.

Trees: British Ash Tree

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Monday 5th November 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Selborne and all noble Lords for their extremely helpful contributions in this debate.

The ash is one of our most recognisable trees and we have about 80 million of them in our country. This debate focuses on the dangers to them posed by Chalara fraxinea, but of course it goes much wider. I must declare an interest as a grower of trees, including ash. The Government are taking the threat posed to the British ash tree extremely seriously. Let me start by setting out very clearly the current situation, our scientific understanding and the action we are taking. Ash dieback is a disease caused by a fungal pathogen that has devastated ash across northern Europe. With ash trees representing 5 per cent of Britain’s woodland cover, the potential impact of this disease on our landscape is significant.

I am going to try to avoid being party political, but before 2010, the scientific evidence in Europe indicated that the organism responsible for ash dieback disease was one that was already widespread and native in Great Britain. This precluded the use of import restrictions as a means of control. In 2010, new scientific evidence was published which correctly identified the pathogen that caused the disease. Between 2009 and 2012 the Forestry Commission inspected 15,000 individual ash trees across the country located in more than 8,000 groups. Of these, 103 trees were discovered to be in ill health. None of these was identified as caused by Chalara.

In February 2012, a routine nursery inspection discovered Chalara, and this finding was confirmed on 7 March. Immediately, the UK plant health authorities deployed additional resources to carry out trace-forward inspections of material known to have been supplied from the infected nurseries. Over the summer, 1,000 at-risk sites were identified and 100,000 saplings were destroyed. In parallel, the authorities developed a pest risk analysis, required, as noble Lords know, as the basis for intervention. Once completed, this analysis was fast-tracked into a shortened consultation to discover the extent of Chalara in Great Britain. During this time, the industry instituted a voluntary moratorium on imports of ash planting material, and I offer it my strong thanks.

On Friday 26 October, this consultation closed. From the early afternoon of Monday 29 October, the movement of ash from anywhere that is not a certified pest-free area—right now, nowhere has that label—became a criminal offence in time for the start of the main UK planting season at the end of November. During the consultation period, Chalara was confirmed in the wider environment in East Anglia. These trees had no apparent connection to nurseries and suggested the presence of Chalara in Great Britain for quite some time. It is possible that this infection was caused by spores blown by the wind from continental Europe, but further investigation is ongoing.

I turn now to the current situation. As my noble friend Lord Selborne said, this morning’s situation report confirmed Chalara in 14 nursery sites, 36 sites where ash has recently been planted and 32 sites in the wider environment. Over the weekend, we have confirmed that, in addition to the cases in the wider environment in East Anglia, there are also cases in Essex and Kent.

Our scientific understanding suggests that Chalara is not currently spreading. The period of spore release is normally the summer. In the winter, the main method of spreading the disease would be movements of ash material. This, as I have said, is now banned. As ash leaves fall to the ground, there exists a risk, although it is rated as low, of the spread of the disease through the long-distance movement of leaf litter on, for example, boots and tyres. In answer to my noble friend Lord King, we have no intention of unwarranted closure of woodlands to those who wish to enjoy them, but we ask woodland visitors to ensure that they take appropriate precautions when leaving woodland.

Our understanding of Chalara continues to develop. Last Thursday, Defra Chief Scientific Adviser Professor Ian Boyd convened a group of international experts to understand better the epidemiology of Chalara fraxinea. We are dealing with considerable biological uncertainty but we are determined to make the best use of the science available to tackle this pathogen.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

I will perfectly understand if the Minister cannot answer this question now, or he may like to put a letter in the Library. He made an interesting point about why this was not identified earlier. In a sense, it was. Something that had killed 90% of the ash trees in Poland was thought to be a pathogen that was already widespread and established in this country. But we did not lose that number of trees at that time. How was it that something that killed all those trees in Poland could be thought to be widely established even if it did not kill any trees in this country?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am not sure that I shall be able to answer my noble friend’s question entirely. I said that before 2010, the scientific evidence indicated that the organism responsible for Ash dieback disease was one that was already widespread and native in this country. But new scientific evidence was published in 2010 which correctly identified that that was not the pathogen and that a different pathogen caused the disease. I hope that that is helpful.

Professor Boyd concluded that: spores are mainly dispersed by wind during the summer; transportation of leaf litter should be avoided; Chalara will infect any form of ash, so exotic species in which Chalara is not pathogenic could act as vectors; latency from infection to overt disease is a matter of months; wood products would not spread the disease if they were treated appropriately using simple methods; trees probably need quite high doses of spores to be infected and may only become infected under specific conditions that are currently not understood; data from Norway suggest a spread rate of the infection front of 30 kilometres per year; once infected, ash trees cannot be treated; Chalara itself tends to kill only young trees; older trees are weakened and die from other causes and this can take years; there appears to be innate genetic resistance in some trees; and it appears that trees within forests tend to die most quickly because of secondary infection from, for example, honeydew fungus.

We are guided by the science. Our first priority is to establish the distribution of Chalara in Great Britain. This will inform our plan for tackling the pathogen. In this surveillance, we are determined to strike the right balance in the necessary trade-off between speed and thoroughness. There are two main surveillance operations under way. First, the Forestry Commission, whose staff have been working weekday and weekend, is undertaking a survey throughout Great Britain that will cover more than 2,000 10 kilometre by 10 kilometre squares in which sample trees will be examined. These survey areas are dispersed across the entire country, with an initial focus on East Anglia and the south-east, which are the areas at greatest risk of wind-borne infection from mainland Europe. To date, the Forestry Commission has inspected more than 1,000 of these squares, and we expect the survey to be substantially complete by the end of the week.

Secondly, the Food and Environment Research Agency is working hard to inspect sites that have been traced as receiving saplings from nurseries that have handled suspect consignments. In addition, we have asked a number of organisations, including the Country Land & Business Association, the Royal Forestry Society and the Royal Scottish Forestry Society, for their members’ help with surveillance over the next few days. I am enormously grateful for the positive way in which they have responded. This rapid surveillance will give us an indication of the extent of Chalara in Great Britain, equipping us to tackle the pathogen. On Wednesday, the Secretary of State and I will welcome industry representatives and stakeholders to a specially convened ash dieback summit. Ensuring that we are working with the science and with stakeholders is crucial to the effective management of the disease.

Noble Lords asked a number of questions. I will do my best to address them. The noble Lords, Lord Clark and Lord Judd, asked whether we could still burn ash firewood. We can. There is a very low risk of spreading the disease by moving firewood, but it will not be possible to move logs from affected areas in the United Kingdom where a notice has been served. One noble Lord asked whether burning trees would risk dissipating spores in the smoke. The indications are that that is very unlikely.

The noble Lord, Lord Clark, asked what the ban meant. All imports of ash-planting material are banned, as no pest-free areas exist in other countries. Movements of ash within the United Kingdom are banned pending full surveillance activity that will determine the pest-free zones.

Several noble Lords asked about Forestry Commission funding. While the Forestry Commission’s overall budget has decreased since 2010, it is not true to say that funding for plant health has decreased. The Forestry Commission’s budget for plant health research, which was £1.4 million in 2010-11, will be £2.1 million for 2014-15. Fera is responsible for plant health across the board. Its budget for plant health research was £667,000 in 2010-11 and will be £1.45 million in 2013-14. Defra has also allocated £1.3 million for each year of the current spending review period under the tree health action plan, and £800,000 for tree health research under the Living with Environmental Change programme for each year of the current spending review period. This funding will go one year beyond the current spending review period and will total £8 million over four years.

My noble friend Lady Parminter asked about the time taken for testing. In the lab, culturing an organism takes up to three weeks. Fera has adopted and developed a molecular method that reduces test time to less than four hours under ideal testing conditions. Following parallel trials of cultural and molecular tests, we are confident that the molecular procedure is robust, so it is currently our chosen diagnostic lab method.

My noble friend Lord King asked to what types of trees the Forestry Commission orders applied. Eradication action is required when the disease is found in nurseries or sites of recently planted ash. Containment notices are in place for those sites where the disease has been found in the wider environment pending the outcome of surveillance that is currently in progress.

The Government are taking further action in the full knowledge that Chalara will not, as some noble Lords mentioned, be the last pest to threaten our shores. Taking my noble friend Lord Selborne’s point, the Secretary of State has asked Professor Ian Boyd to convene a tree health and plant biosecurity expert task force to review our strategic approach to plant health as a whole, while at the European level, our negotiators are working to improve the pace of decision-making, the targeting of risk and the level of international co-operation within the EU plant health regime.

Furthermore, we are quickly bringing forward actions in our October 2011 tree health and plant biosecurity action plan—part of which, in answer to my noble friend Lady Parminter, importantly involves public engagement—to address the serious pests and pathogens not currently present in the UK.

I thank all noble Lords for their comments and suggestions, all of which I will take back. Chalara fraxinea is a serious threat to our ash population. We will continue to strive to understand and control it. We are also learning important lessons, which will help us combat future tree diseases.

House adjourned at 11.11 pm.

Flooding: Defence Programme

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Beecham]

In the absence of my noble friend Lady Quin, and at her request, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in her name on the Order Paper.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, the flood defence programme is prioritised to protect people and property, especially in areas of greatest flood risk and deprivation. The Environment Agency constantly assesses the projects within the programme to maintain value for taxpayers’ money with a return on investment of at least eight to one. We expect to exceed our goal of 145,000 households better protected by March 2015.

[Lord Beecham]

My Lords, will the Government now recognise that it was a mistake to cut funding for flood defence, particularly in the light of the fact that a number of schemes had then to be deferred? Will they now accept the National Audit Office’s advice of October 2011 and increase the funding to the Environment Agency by the £20 million it suggested, thereby protecting householders, businesses and the public purse as well as creating jobs?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am acutely aware of the impact that the recent flooding has had on victims and my sympathies go out to them all. This summer was the second wettest on record. Despite hard times, we protected the flood budgets as far as possible with a 6% reduction in spend over the four years 2011-12 to 2014-15 compared with the previous four years. As a result of the investment that we are making, we expect to exceed our goal of 145,000 households better protected by March 2015. The Environment Agency will deliver real-term efficiency savings of at least 15% in procurement over the spending period and is aiming to increase the number of households receiving free flood warnings to more than 1.1 million.

[Baroness Scott of Needham Market]

Is the noble Lord able to update the House on the progress of talks which were being held with the insurance industry as there are now many thousands of households that face the problem of living in properties that are virtually uninsurable at prices that they can afford to pay?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, we want to reach an agreement that ensures both the availability and affordability of flood insurance. We are in intense but constructive negotiations with the industry and further announcements will be made in due course after more discussions with it and other relevant parties.

[Baroness Knight of Collingtree]

My Lords, can my noble friend assure the House that in future housebuilding plans, which are now so extensive, will not be carried out on flood plain land?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the Government’s policy, as set out in the National Planning Policy Framework, is to avoid unnecessary building in areas at risk. New homes are not included in the funding formula, otherwise the system would encourage housebuilding on flood plains, so I agree with my noble friend.

[Lord Marlesford]

My Lords, does the Minister agree that while people are obviously very important, so is food production? Is he aware that in Suffolk there is a serious threat of the estuaries of the Alde, Ore and Deben rivers flooding an area which produces no less than 25% of all the vegetables grown in England? Is he further aware that local farmers are quite ready to take action themselves, and spend their own money, to improve the flood defences? Will the Government encourage this rather than leaving it all to the Environment Agency? It would save quite a bit of taxpayers’ money. I declare an interest as a Suffolk farmer, but not in the area at risk.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an important point. Defra’s partnership funding approach provides a contribution to the economic benefits of flood and coastal erosion risk management projects, including avoiding the damage to business, agricultural land and infrastructure. It specifically allows the involvement of farmers and others from the private sector as well as local authorities. Many schemes that are justified principally on the basis of protection of households also protect businesses. Many flood management projects reduce the risk to farmland.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

My Lords, the previous Government negotiated the statement of principles with the insurance industry to guarantee universal flood insurance coverage for homes in flood-affected areas. I should declare my interest as someone whose home was flooded this summer. That statement expires in June next year. The insurance industry has warned that unless new proposals are published by the end of November this year, it will be too late to ensure that the new alternative is in place by July next year. In response to the question from the noble Baroness, Lady Scott, the Minister told us that he would make announcements in due course. Can he reassure us that that will be this month?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the statement of principles to which the noble Lord referred did not go to the issue of affordability. In answer to his question, we are in intense and constructive negotiations, and we will make an announcement as soon as we can.

[The Countess of Mar]

My Lords, does the noble Lord agree that land management, as the noble Lord, Lord Marlesford, has said, and river dredging are very important to protecting properties, businesses and farmland from flooding? In the past, some stewardship schemes have prevented landowners from dredging their ditches and streams, which has caused a build-up because the flood water gets caught in them. Does the noble Lord intend to redress this balance so that there is proper management of the waterways?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the noble Countess makes an important point. In 2007, I had first-hand experience of that. The Environment Agency is working extremely hard on exactly that sort of problem.

[Lord Roberts of Llandudno]

My Lords, what consideration is being given to the effect of global warming? Is there continuing discussion with those involved? Are there forecasts? What are we looking to expect in that direction?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, there is constant negotiation between the meteorological forecasting organisation and the Environment Agency. My noble friend is right that we need to keep our eyes on that and we are certainly doing so.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, could we take this opportunity to extend our sympathy to those who have suffered this week in the United States from the devastating floods and storms?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. I entirely agree with my noble friend. I think it is worth taking stock and making the point that we are seeking to learn lessons from what is going on in New York. The Environment Agency has contacted the US authorities already with a view to drawing on lessons learnt.

[Lord Tomlinson]

My Lords, can we be a little less selective in who we send our condolences to and include in our regrets not only the United States but also the Caribbean countries?

[Lord De Mauley]

I very much agree with the noble Lord. I think I said earlier, but I will repeat, that our sympathies of course remain with our own people who have suffered this summer.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords, does the—

Schmallenberg Virus

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Thursday 1st November 2012 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I beg leave to ask the Question standing in my name on the Order Paper. I declare an interest as I have a farm with sheep.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, Schmallenberg virus is carried by vectors, including midges, which are difficult to control, but infection outwith pregnancy has minimal impact and is believed to give protection from the effect on offspring in subsequent pregnancies. We understand that several pharmaceutical companies are developing a potential vaccine which will require to be licensed as safe by the Veterinary Medicines Directorate. Use of the vaccine will be a decision for the livestock keeper in consultation with his veterinarian.

[Baroness Masham of Ilton]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for that reply. Is he aware that two companies have vaccines which are ready to go if they can only obtain approval and licensing? Will he please make this a fast-track incident because this horrible virus has a great impact on farms, especially as regards those ewes and cows which have very deformed offspring?

[Lord De Mauley]

I entirely agree with the noble Baroness that the effects of this disease on young calves and lambs are horrifying. We understand that a number of pharmaceutical companies are developing vaccines which we expect to become commercially available for livestock keepers if, in consultation with their vets and considering their management practices, they think they will be of benefit.

[Baroness Trumpington]

I have a spray for use against bad insects which I obtained on request from the Royal Horticultural Society and which presumably farmers are using against midges. When I got it home, I discovered that it said at the bottom of the label, “deadly to bees”. Is it in general use, or in use at all, because we certainly want to protect bees?

[Lord De Mauley]

I agree with my noble friend. Generally speaking, midges are very widespread across the country and I think that the application of a spray would have minimal impact.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, in view of the emergence of a worrying number of animal and plant diseases, which may or may not be connected with the nuances of climate change, will the Minister give us an assurance that none of the drastic cuts being made by the Government in their own research facilities will hinder the evolution of vaccines to counter things such as bovine TB, the Schmallenberg virus and Ash dieback?

[Lord De Mauley]

If I may, I shall restrict my response to the Schmallenberg virus for these purposes. I assure noble Lords that the necessary funding has been made available particularly to carry out the testing which is so critical in this case.

[Lord Myners]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior]

My Lords, it is good news to hear that vaccines are being developed against the Schmallenberg virus although it takes time to authenticate the vaccine, get it licensed and the rest. A short-term approach could be to delay the breeding of cattle and sheep to a time when the insect vector—the biting midge—is less active because it is only through the biting midge transmitting the virus that this infection is transmitted from animal to animal. Has the Minister information about any work that is going on as regards advising farmers to delay animal breeding until there is less midge activity?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords, I have looked into this suggestion. It is possible that delayed tupping may help. We recommend that farmers discuss this with their vets as there are many interdependencies for each farm relating to the timing of tupping and the overall benefits need to be considered. If a flock is not infected yet, delaying tupping may work only if disease infects the ewes before tupping takes place.

[Lord Elis-Thomas]

My Lords, will the Minister, who speaks for Defra in this House, give us an assurance that there is a high level of co-operation between Defra, the other departments of agriculture in the devolved Administrations and, of course, the Chief Veterinary Officers on this matter?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. That is a topical suggestion, in view of the overnight reporting of the appearance of the virus in Northern Ireland. We are in very regular contact with the devolved Administrations, both through the Chief Veterinary Officer and at official level, exchanging information on our knowledge of the virus and our actions. Indeed, our deputy chief vet spoke yesterday to the Northern Ireland Chief Veterinary Officer about this specific case.

[Lord Myners]

I should declare that I know very little about the Schmallenberg virus, but I know that it is an insurable risk—as is flooding. I want to go back, therefore, to ask the Minister: will the Government take action to address the deficiencies of the Solvency II directive on insurance, which is significantly decreasing insurance capacity in the UK and forcing up premiums for people insuring themselves against the virus or, indeed, against flooding?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

I am sure that the noble Lord will have an opportunity to ask a question about insurance. This is not it.

[Noble Lords]

Oh!

[Lord Stoneham of Droxford]

My Lords, given that the midges that carry this virus come from the dreaded mainland of Europe, should not today, of all days, the Government emphasise the need for partnership, co-operation and trust with our European partners? Can the Minister tell us how this country is benefiting from the €3 million that the European Union has provided for research on this virus?

[Lord De Mauley]

Yes, my Lords. The AHVLA is working closely with similar bodies across Europe and is carrying out joint research funded by national Governments and the European Commission. We are funding research at AHVLA Weybridge into the pathogenesis of SBV and the immune response to it. This will provide valuable information of its implications and impact. We will share this information, when we have it, with our European colleagues.

Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Wednesday 24th October 2012 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord De Mauley]

That the Grand Committee do report to the House that it has considered the Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012.

Relevant document: 7th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, these regulations mark the first step in delivering the Government’s policy on the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. That policy was set out in Written Ministerial Statements by my noble friend Lord Taylor of Holbeach to the House on 1 March and 12 July. The Government are introducing regulations now to address welfare concerns surrounding wild animals in travelling circuses.

Noble Lords are aware that we are intending to ban the use of wild animals in travelling circuses on ethical grounds via primary legislation. Given the time needed for the Government to prepare and Parliament to scrutinise and debate such banning legislation, as well as any reasonable time allowed for the circuses themselves to adjust to a ban, the regulations are necessary to set clear welfare standards for any travelling circus wishing to operate in England that uses a wild animal.

The regulations will fill a gap in legislation. Whereas zoos or private collections require licences to keep certain wild species, circuses keeping the same animals are exempt. Due to the travelling nature of circuses, the regulations will be administered and enforced centrally by Defra, with inspections by appropriately qualified veterinary inspectors drawn from the existing list of zoo licensing veterinary inspectors.

All travelling circuses that include wild animals will require licences. The annual fee for a licence has been calculated to cover the administration cost to Defra. Additionally, circuses will have to pay the full cost of inspections as well as for any improvements to their facilities and procedures that may be required. The inspection fee in these regulations mirrors that of zoo licensing veterinary inspections.

The number of inspections required is not stipulated in the regulations in order to allow flexibility to ensure that standards are being met. However, we envisage that there will be at least three inspections per licence period: announced inspections at winter quarters and while on tour, plus at least one unannounced inspection.

Operators will have to supply Defra with a stock list of the wild animals to be covered by the licence. Detailed records for each licensed animal must be kept. Only wild animals on the stock list may form part of the travelling circus and circuses must notify Defra when they intend to add a wild animal. They must also inform Defra of their tour itinerary well in advance of the first performance.

Each circus must appoint a lead vet who has appropriate expertise to understand the needs of, and be able to treat, licensed animals. Quarterly checks are required of all licensed animals, conducted by a veterinary surgeon with appropriate expertise, in addition to any sporadic visits, for example, to treat animal illnesses. At least two of these quarterly visits must be conducted by the lead vet, one at winter quarters and one on tour. Detailed group and individual care plans must be prepared, agreed by the lead vet, and followed at all times. They must be reviewed regularly by a veterinary surgeon.

Unsupervised access to licensed animals will be restricted to persons with appropriate qualifications or experience. Circuses must maintain a list of the persons authorised to access and care for the licensed animals, and ensure adequate staffing levels. A list of those persons on duty looking after licensed animals must be clearly displayed to staff.

The regulations also set out welfare conditions that cover a licensed animal’s environment including diet, transportation, use during display, training and performance. These requirements are supported by guidance setting out good practice when meeting the needs of licensed animals. Supplementary guidance is provided for some species, especially those known to have been used recently in travelling circuses.

These regulations address concerns surrounding the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. For the first time there will be a set of clear welfare standards that all travelling circuses with wild animals must follow. While we are developing the promised ban on ethical grounds, we are confident that these regulations, combined with the provisions of the Animal Welfare Act 2006, will provide significant protection for wild animals in travelling circuses, and I commend them to the Committee.

[Baroness Parminter]

I thank the Minister for his comments reiterating the Government’s commitment to move towards a ban on the use of wild animals in travelling circuses. That is clearly the will of the majority of the general public, the House of Commons and, I am sure, many Members in this House. Although I do not want to make any party political points, it is also Liberal Democrat Party policy.

The best that I can say about these regulations is that I do not oppose them as a temporary measure; indeed, it is clear that they may improve the protection of the welfare of animals kept in circuses. However, it would be fair to say that the majority view among the welfare organisations and indeed the veterinary profession is that adequate regulations cannot be put in place to guarantee the welfare of wild animals used in travelling circuses.

I have three questions for the Minister. The first relates to the standards that have been put forward in relation to comparative industries. There is a debate about whether these regulations are at a lower standard than those of the comparable industry of zoos. The example used is that of elephants. According to these regulations they would have between one-sixth to one-quarter of the space that they would get in a standard zoo. Indeed, under these regulations elephants can be chained and confined every night on the road. Do we feel that these welfare standards are comparable with comparative industries?

Secondly, having been through the impact assessment very carefully, I could not find notification of any animal welfare organisations, or indeed any veterinary organisations, that are in favour of these regulations. I understand that a majority of animal welfare groups—all of the major animal welfare groups—declined to participate in the consultation. While the BVA—the British Veterinary Association—did participate, it is opposed in principle to regulation. Are there any major welfare or veterinary organisations in this country that favour going down the route of regulation rather than moving straight to a ban? Given that 95% of the respondents to the consultation were in favour of the outright ban that the Minister recommitted the Government to move towards, were there any outstanding legal concerns where a ban based on ethical grounds could be challenged if it was undertaken under Section 12 of the 2006 Act, as ethical grounds may not be deemed sufficient for its purposes?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I am most grateful to all noble Lords for their comments and questions. I will do my best to address the points raised.

My noble friend Lady Parminter asked whether the regulations created a two-tier framework for animal welfare, particularly in comparison with zoos. If anything, the status quo signifies a two-tier system. While the Animal Welfare Act 2006 already applies, operators of travelling circuses that have wild animals are, in animal welfare terms, otherwise unregulated. The regulations will address that.

It is right that there are some differences in the detail of welfare standards because we are talking about very different operating environments and different sources of exercise and enrichment, but I do not accept that we are somehow making things worse through these regulations. It is right to introduce targeted welfare standards, inspections and enforcement for travelling circuses, which are exempt from other regimes that would protect the animals.

My noble friend asked specifically about chaining. The new regulations should be thought of as an extension to the Animal Welfare Act and its existing provisions. It is already a criminal offence to cause a circus animal unnecessary suffering or to fail to provide for its welfare needs. If anybody—welfare groups or a member of the public—has evidence of this happening, they should contact the relevant enforcement authority. These regulations will require regular announced but, more importantly, unannounced inspections, as well as routine veterinary visits. They also limit unsupervised wild animal access to a named group of suitably trained or experienced staff and they require circuses to keep detailed records of all aspects of the animal’s day-to-day life. If our inspectors discover any of these alleged cases of abuse or neglect, enforcement action should be taken.

My noble friend asked which welfare organisations were in favour of the regulations. The British Veterinary Zoological Society supports a regulatory approach. She also asked about the issue of the grounds for a ban. The 2007 Radford report on circus animals concluded that there was insufficient scientific evidence to demonstrate that travelling circuses are unable to meet the welfare needs of wild animals presently being used in the United Kingdom. The position of lack of scientific evidence has not changed. There is insufficient evidence that a ban is required for welfare reasons and any such ban would be vulnerable to challenge. That is what we must avoid.

Consequently, we are now looking carefully at the means by which a ban can be introduced on ethical grounds. There are a number of issues to consider in developing the ethical case and the exact nature of a ban. We must not rush primary legislation on such an emotive issue. We need to get it right. The detail must be correct to ensure that it will not fall at the first challenge. Nevertheless, we are determined to pursue this and we are confident that we will get there.

The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhill, suggested that Defra had been procrastinating. The situation has not changed since my noble friend Lord Taylor’s Written Ministerial Statement on 12 July that we expect to be able to publish draft legislation for pre-legislative scrutiny this Session. We are working on a draft Bill. He specifically raised the issue of elephants suffering under licensing. There is a far greater chance of uncovering animal abuse with regular licensing inspections than without. It should be remembered that the trial of the elephant Annie’s former keeper has not yet been resolved, so I cannot comment any further on that particular case and I am sure that noble Lords will understand that.

Generally, in answer to the noble Lord’s point about cruelty, it need hardly be said that training should not involve animal suffering. These standards prescribe that animals must receive immediate and tangible rewards and positive reinforcement when they exhibit desired behaviour during training and performance. They also prohibit seeking a desired behaviour from any animal in any way that would cause pain, suffering, injury or disease.

I thank my noble friend Lord Colwyn for his supportive words. My noble friend Lord Redesdale made some interesting points, which I have taken on board. I can confirm that the definition of “wild animal” is consistent with the Zoo Licensing Act 1981—therefore, budgerigars are not considered to be wild animals. Nevertheless, the Animal Welfare Act 2006 still applies of course.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, raised a number of issues, some of which I have already addressed in answering other points. Regarding whether the period of seven years would conflict with a ban coming into place sooner than that, the regulations include the standard sunset provision. There is no connection to or conflict with this and the timescale of a ban. Government policy is that all new domestic regulations expire seven years after they are made. That does not prevent the licensing regulations becoming redundant earlier where their provisions are superseded by the proposed ban.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, kindly raised with me in advance the enforcement provisions and how they would work. If a circus operator chooses not to comply with the law, it will be at risk of a licence suspension and possible revocation. The simple remedy is to comply or to cease using wild animals. It is important to understand what will happen in practice and already happens for other regulations. Ongoing dialogue between inspectors and operators will mean that a suspension could not come as a surprise to the operator. Only if the operator refuses to take action to restore compliance with licensing conditions will the possibility of a suspension arise. If a suspension notice is issued, it will clarify precisely what must be done and by when. Continued failure to comply would lead to revocation of a licence and prosecution. It is not the case that an operator would be prosecuted for taking steps identified in a suspension notice.

Compliance with the licensing conditions could be restored by the removal of all the animals of the affected species from the stock list of the circus. They will then be covered by a combination of the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976, the Zoo Licensing Act 1981 and, of course, the Animal Welfare Act 2006. The circus licensing regulations would no longer apply to those animals, and they would have to be removed from the circus.

I should add that neither the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments nor the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee has had any adverse comments on the enforceability of the regulations.

[Lord Knight of Weymouth]

I hope that the Committee will indulge me in asking a question. If the operator disagrees with the suspension of a licence and wants to appeal under Regulation 14, what will that operator do with his or her animals while waiting for the outcome? Clearly, paragraph (4) would allow the court to permit the operator to continue operating a travelling circus, which is a way out, but if the court were not minded to, my worry is that the animals would then be kept illegally. That is what I do not understand.

[Lord De Mauley]

I am sure that I will be able to give the noble Lord an answer to that question in a moment.

The noble Lord mentioned conflict of interest. Inspectors have been vetted for conflict of interest; the process already in use for zoos will be followed. He also raised a specific point about primates, which interested me. May I ask him to accept that today we are dealing with these regulations but I am quite happy to talk to him outside about the broader issue of the welfare of animals?

The noble Lord asked about new species. Any new animals introduced will be protected by the rigorous new standards required by the licensing scheme and will be inspected regularly, along with the species that are currently used. However, we cannot use regulations made under the Animal Welfare Act 2006 to prohibit the introduction of new animals outright. Any attempt to use these licensing regulations to prohibit the use of certain species would be highly vulnerable to legal challenge. Our position is that a ban via primary legislation on ethical grounds is the most secure way of achieving the successful ban we want. We cannot prevent the use of new animals until that primary legislation has been enacted.

The noble Lord asked about the period of time that animals may travel for. There must be a stationary period of at least 12 hours in any 24-hour period when the circus moves between venues or layover sites. During transport, animals should be offered water, feed and the opportunity to rest as appropriate to their species, age, health and physiological state. Licensed animals should not be taken from the transport vehicle during transport, except at pre-planned rest stops as defined in the journey plan or under emergency conditions. Every effort must be made to make a journey as comfortable as possible for the animals being transported, including adhering to all traffic laws.

On the noble Lord’s earlier point about enforcement and his supplementary question, suspension can be delayed in taking effect. If the court refuses to suspend the suspension, a fine can result. Enforcement and prosecution will produce compliance. I am not entirely sure that that satisfies the noble Lord, and I will write to him on that specific point. I hope that I have answered the main points raised by noble Lords. If I have not, I will write to them following the debate.

Specific legislation setting down welfare standards for animals with such complex welfare needs, especially in such a constantly changing environment, is long overdue. Similar species in more static environments have been subject to their own specific licensing legislation for at least 30 years. By contrast, wild animals in circuses have not been the specific subject of any legislation since an Act in the 1920s.

The Government have promised to bring forward primary legislation to ban wild animals from travelling circuses. This ban will be on ethical grounds and will, understandably, I hope, take a little time. It would not be right to rush legislation through Parliament that sought to prohibit an activity that has long been legal and for which it has proved hard to find evidence that an animal’s welfare is irredeemably compromised. However, the Government are satisfied that there is a risk that welfare issues need to be addressed. In the interim, the welfare of these animals is, of course, paramount. The Government believe that these regulations will safeguard the welfare of wild animals in travelling circuses while a ban is introduced.

Motion agreed.

Bovine Tuberculosis

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Tuesday 23rd October 2012 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (Lord De Mauley)]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I shall now repeat a Statement made in the other place by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. The Statement is as follows.

“Bovine tuberculosis is the most pressing animal health problem in the United Kingdom. The importance of the epidemic for our cattle farmers, their families and their communities cannot be overemphasised. This was once a disease isolated to small pockets of the country. It has now spread extensively through the west of England and Wales. The number of new cases has doubled every nine years. Last year, TB led to the slaughter of 26,000 cattle in England at a cost of nearly £100 million. In the past 10 years bovine TB has cost the taxpayer £500 million. It is estimated that this will rise to £1 billion over the next decade if the disease is left unchecked.

The task of managing bovine TB and bringing it under control is difficult and complex. The Government are committed to using all the tools at their disposal and to continuing to develop new ones as a package of measures to tackle the disease. In high-risk areas, herds are tested annually and any cattle that test positive are slaughtered. Restrictions on cattle movements have been further strengthened to reduce the chance of disease spreading from cattle to cattle. Only last week we announced plans for a new surveillance testing regime and stricter cattle movement controls. We also continue to look at ways to improve the testing of cattle for TB.

Research in this country over the past 15 years has demonstrated that cattle and badgers can transmit the disease to each other. Culling badgers can lead to a reduction of the disease in cattle if it is carried out over a large enough area and for a sufficient length of time. That is why we believe that, based on the best available evidence, culling badgers to control TB can make a significant contribution. It is crucial that we get this right. The National Farmers’ Union has taken the lead on behalf of the farming industry to plan and organise the pilot culls. It has been working tirelessly over the past few months, signing up farmers and landowners in the pilot areas and ensuring that contractors are properly trained. I have been immensely impressed by the effort, commitment and determination that have been demonstrated by farmers in the two pilot areas. I am also most grateful to the police in the two areas for their support.

The exceptionally bad weather this summer has put a number of pressures on our farmers and caused significant problems. Protracted legal proceedings and the request of the police to delay the start until after the Olympics and Paralympics have also meant that we have moved beyond the optimal time for delivering an effective cull. We should have begun in the summer. In addition to these problems, the most recent fieldwork has revealed that badger numbers in the two areas are significantly higher than previously thought. This only highlights the scale of the problem we are dealing with.

Evidence suggests that at least 70% of the badgers in the areas must be removed. This is based on the results of the randomised badger culling trial so that we can be confident that culling will reduce TB in cattle. Despite a greatly increased effort over the past few days and weeks, the farmers delivering this policy have concluded that they cannot be confident that it will be possible to remove enough badgers based on these higher numbers and considering the lateness of the season. It would be wrong to go ahead if those on the ground cannot be confident of removing at least 70% of the populations.

Today I have received a letter from the president of the NFU on behalf of the companies co-ordinating the culls, explaining why they do not feel they can go ahead this year and requesting that they be postponed until next summer. In these circumstances, it is the right thing to do and, as they are the people who have to deliver this policy on the ground and work within the science, I respect their decision. I have placed a copy of the letter in the Libraries of both Houses.

By starting the pilots next summer we can build on the work that has already been done and ensure that the cull will conform to the scientific criteria and evidence base. I know that this will be very disappointing for many, particularly those farmers in the two pilot areas, but I fully support the decision of the NFU to delay the start of culling operations.

I must emphasise that there is no change to the Government’s policy. We remain absolutely committed to it, but we must ensure that we work with the NFU to get the delivery right. We also remain committed to our wider TB eradication programme and to continuing to strengthen it, so that we can move towards our goal of a TB-free England. Vaccination is another tool and one that we would all like to be able to deploy more widely. Unfortunately, we are not yet there in terms of its development or practicality. If we had a viable and legal cattle vaccine, we would be using it. It will, however, be some years before this is the case and neither we nor the industry can afford to wait that long. It is for this reason that we must look at all the options.

The Government are determined to tackle bovine TB by all the means available to us. Now, in the next few months, we will ensure that the pilot culls can be implemented effectively, in the best possible conditions, with the right resources. Having looked at all the evidence over many years, I am utterly convinced that badger control is the right thing to do, and indeed the higher than expected badger numbers only serve to underline the need for urgent action. I remain fully committed to working with the farming industry to ensure that the pilot culls can be delivered effectively, safely and humanely next summer”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his response to the Statement. I start by reiterating that bovine TB is the most pressing animal health problem facing our cattle farmers. No one wants to kill badgers but we absolutely have to bear down on this terrible disease.

What has been announced today is a postponement until next summer of the pilots that were due to start this autumn. There is no change of government policy. We and the farming industry remain committed to taking forward this evidence-based policy. We are totally committed to tackling bovine TB through a range of measures, including a controlled cull of badgers. The cull in the two pilot areas will go ahead next summer when we are completely satisfied that all the arrangements are in place.

The leading experts whom Defra brought together last year agreed that the evidence shows that culling done in the right way and carried out over a sufficient area and length of time in a co-ordinated and efficient way can reduce the spread of the disease to cattle with benefits remaining for many years. The policy is firmly based on evidence from the randomised badger-culling trial. Using the results of this trial, culling over an area of 150 square kilometres could be expected to lead to an average 16% reduction in TB incidence in the local area. This figure was agreed by an independent panel of scientists at a meeting with Professor Bob Watson, Defra’s Chief Scientific Adviser, on 4 April last year. We are clearly not saying that this is the whole answer but it is a very important part of the answer alongside testing and surveillance, movement restrictions and the removal and slaughter of affected animals. We wanted to be absolutely sure that we had the most robust data available to ensure that the right logistics were in place for an effective cull. The population estimates show the problem of badgers spreading bovine TB to be even worse than expected. The right decision has been taken, based on the available evidence.

Natural England’s figures were estimated on RBCT data and, in validating the estimates provided by the applicants, some gaps were found that raised concerns. Due to the importance of this data for the effectiveness of the policy, it was responsible, in taking a science-based approach, to check these numbers through further fieldwork. This further fieldwork has led to updated estimates of the badger population that are higher than originally expected. The discovery that there are far more badgers than previously thought shows the problem could be much bigger than we feared. All of the preparations for the pilot culls were geared up for a smaller number of badgers, so it is absolutely right that the NFU looks again at what resources it needs to make sure we get it right.

The noble Lord, Lord Knight, asked about policing. It was agreed with the Home Office that the cull should not proceed before the Olympics. The noble Lord asked about the costs of the culling operations and whether they would be met by the participating farmers. The costs that fall to Government are those to do with ensuring that the pilots meet their purpose. It is right to pilot the policy and confirm our assumptions about the effectiveness, safety and humaneness of controlled shooting. As regards costs more generally, the Secretary of State has said that he will have a comprehensive breakdown of the money spent so far prepared and laid before Parliament. The noble Lord specifically asked about policing costs. These will depend on the extent of protester activity and it is right that the Government should recompense the police for additional costs.

The noble Lord asked about vaccination, which is an important issue. Work to develop an oral badger vaccine and a cattle vaccine is continuing and is a high priority. Defra has been investing significantly in developing bovine TB vaccines for both badgers and cattle for a long time. We have a licensed, injectable vaccine that can and is used on badgers. The problem with it is, however, two-fold. First, it is very expensive to catch all the badgers. Secondly, it has to be done every year. So it is a very expensive process and is not really practicable on a wide scale. Since 1994, Defra has invested more than £43 million in badger and cattle vaccination and associated diagnostics and expects to spend another £15.5 million over four years. Even if these vaccinations were available, they are not a magic bullet and additional measures would still be necessary.

The Government fully support the NFU’s decision to postpone the culls as the responsible thing to do to ensure the pilots are carried out effectively. It would be irresponsible to rush ahead and risk making the problem worse if it is not carried out properly. This disease led to the slaughter of 26,000 cattle in England last year and cost nearly £100 million. Without further action it would cost the taxpayer an estimated £1 billion over the next decade.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord De Mauley]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, for whom I have a huge amount of respect. I am grateful to him in particular for confirming the 16% figure to which I referred in my answer to the noble Lord, Lord Knight. On the question of whether culling is not a huge part of the answer, it is a very significant part of the answer but I said earlier that it is not the whole answer. I hope that the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, will at least accept that.

He asked about the numbers. I explained to the noble Lord, Lord Knight, that previous estimates of the number of badgers to be removed from the pilot areas were based on the RBCT. We have recently carried out field surveys to look at the badger populations in the areas where the pilots are taking place. However, what is important in answering the question of the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, is that we have commissioned a national badger survey in England and Wales to quantify any changes since the previous survey.

The noble Lord asked about the cost and, in particular, whether the farmers will continue to bear the cost. Yes indeed, they will; that is entirely the plan. The bearing of the cost will be done in exactly the way that has been planned.

I should say to noble Lords, on the issue of the evidence and the science, that, following the March 2012 visit to the UK of the European Commission’s bovine tuberculosis sub-group of the task force for monitoring animal disease eradication, it stated:

“It is however of utmost importance that there is a political consensus and commitment to long-term strategies to combat TB in badgers as well as in cattle ... There is no scientific evidence to demonstrate that badger vaccination will reduce the incidence of TB in cattle. However there is considerable evidence to support the removal of badgers in order to improve the TB status of both badgers and cattle”.

So the European Commission is pushing us and we have to deal with TB in badgers.

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, I will be brief. Our priority on these Benches was always that the pilots were safe and rigorous in testing how effective and indeed humane the culling of badgers could be. However, given that the NFU does not have the resources to deliver this, we welcome the fact that the cull is being postponed. Will the Minister confirm that the Government will use this pause, before any evidence-based pilots proceed, to seek approval to use in the field the cattle vaccine and the diagnostic test, which has recently been approved, and in particular seek to use the EU animal health directive, which is upcoming?

Secondly, the Secretary of State confirmed today in another place that all options will be looked at in order to curtail this disease. Will the Minister confirm that those alternatives will not include looking again at the issue of gassing, which was condemned in a review by Lord Zuckerman, a Member of this House, in the 1980s?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for her supportive words. We have had discussions with the EU that essentially involve persuading the EU to accept the DIVA test. They have told us to get international validation and we are determined to do so.

[Lord Soulsby of Swaffham Prior]

My Lords, in view of the great success in controlling rabies in foxes in western Europe with an oral vaccine, has much thought been given to the production of an oral vaccine for TB in badgers? I realise, of course, that the organisms are entirely different; one is a virus and one is a bacterium. However, surely the same process of trying to select an organism that is protected before it gets into the gut and immunises the badger is worthy of investigation. Can the Minister give some indication of some of the work that is going on, if any, on the production of an oral vaccine similar to the one developed for fox rabies?

[Lord De Mauley]

I am grateful to my noble friend because this is an important subject into which considerable work is going on. The evidence that he has referred to will of course be taken into account. Progress on the development of an effective oral badger vaccine relies, of course, on scientific breakthroughs in this field, and it is uncertain in outcome and timing. Compared to an injectable vaccine, an oral vaccine is technically more difficult to formulate, as my noble friend alluded to, and it requires bait, which encourages the uptake of the vaccine by badgers and minimises the potential of other species to eat it. Developing an oral vaccine against TB in badgers is proving more difficult than originally hoped, which means that I cannot say with certainty when one might be available for use in the field.

[Lord Winston]

My Lords, will the Minister inform us whether the Government intend to cull the seven or eight other common species which also affect tuberculosis and spread it among cattle?

[Lord De Mauley]

That is an interesting question. Although bovine TB is present in other wildlife, such as deer, badgers are the main species responsible for transmitting the disease to cattle because of their specific ecology. Evidence from the RBCT demonstrates conclusively that badgers contribute significantly to bovine TB in cattle. While deer in Britain are generally considered to be a sentinel or spillover host of infection in cattle, rather than a source of the disease in cattle, current evidence suggests that TB infection from deer is not a significant disease risk to cattle.

[Lord Plumb]

My Lords, as a farmer, my question is based on some history. I will be very brief. In 1944 we eradicated TB on my farm. In 1964, as a junior officer in the NFU, I had the privilege of announcing that we had totally eradicated bovine TB from this country. Since then, of course, history has shown us a different picture. The noble Lord, Lord Knight, posed a large number of questions, and I noted all of them. Those questions were posed more than 10 years ago, and we have gone through that period of time with few decisions being taken. To say, as the noble Lord, Lord Krebs, said, that farmers are dishonest is an insult to the farming community and I cannot accept it. That is not the reason. All the farmers concerned, particularly those who have been held up for 12 years, have been unable to sell one beast off their farms over that time. They do not see this problem as scientists see it; they see it as men who are concerned with the welfare of animals and they do not want to see their herds suffering, as they are doing and have done throughout this period.

My question is exactly the same as that raised by the noble Lord, Lord Soulsby. Surely we have to move towards vaccination. However, if the current vaccine is effective for only one year, that is a very expensive mechanism for doing the job. Surely to goodness we are in an age when an oral vaccine can be found to cope with this situation. It can be put in either the water or the food so that the affected animals are removed. Perhaps that would be a better way of dealing with the matter than the ways that have hitherto been thought of.

[Lord De Mauley]

I can only say to my noble friend that we are pursuing vaccine options as hard as we can and as a high priority. We have been investing significantly in developing TB vaccines for both badgers and cattle for a long time. I have mentioned a licensed injectable vaccine that can be and is being used on badgers but, as I have explained, it is extremely expensive and needs to be repeated annually. As my noble friend says, we need an oral vaccine, which we are still searching for. We will continue that search and expect to spend another £15.5 million over four years.

[Lord Patel]

My Lords, the Minister referred to other species that are affected with a similar strain of tuberculosis and specifically mentioned wild deer. Are not mice, particularly field mice, and rats also affected by the same strain and do they not come into closer contact with cattle?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the point about mice, rats and indeed deer is that there is no restriction on culling them.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, I agree entirely with the Minister, as indeed would most people in the country, when he says that this is the most pressing animal health issue facing the country. In the light of that, I welcome the announcement today because I think that it exposes how shambolic the Government’s proposals have been in trying to tackle this real problem. As scientists said last week, the policy was little more than a costly diversion and we will end up with more cases of TB in four or nine years’ time than we have at the moment. The four-year pilots have now, with the stroke of a pen today, become five-year pilots. I believe that we ought to follow the recommendations of the European Union representatives and, although it will not be easy, continue to seek political consensus so that we can move on to vaccination and increase the amount of money that we are spending on research in this field, especially in the form of cattle vaccination.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, the area in which I disagree with the noble Lord is clearly that of pursuing the cull, which I have said we are planning to do. The area in which I agree with him is that of vaccination, which is another tool in the box that we must find, and I assure noble Lords that we are continuing to work on that.

[Lord King of Bridgwater]

My Lords, the Minister may be aware that my former constituency was one of the areas that were being considered for this cull. For very many years, including 13 years of a Labour Government, I prayed that positive progress would be made by the Government in tackling this problem. I join the noble Lord, Lord Plumb, in saying that I bitterly regret the very party-political way in which the noble Lord, Lord Knight, intervened in this matter. His Government did nothing effective and left it as a problem to be tackled now. Some have had to live with the personal challenges of the issue—as my noble friend knows, there are suicides, despair and family breakups, so it is not just the financial consequences but the destruction of people’s whole lives that have followed from this. It is also not just dairy herds, which I think the noble Lord referred to, but anybody with cattle. Certainly in the West Country they have faced appalling problems. This should be pursued on an all-party, bipartisan basis, as my noble friend said, not by trying to score points and accusing people of dishonesty in filleting the statistics or anything else. We are trying to get a cohesive approach to this challenge because if we do not, in many parts of the country, it will destroy the whole cattle industry as we see it.

[Lord De Mauley]

I absolutely agree with my noble friend about the effect on farmers and their families. Perhaps I may do something unusual and come to the defence of the noble Lord, Lord Knight, who began by acknowledging how very horrible this disease is. If I may, I would like to pour a little soothing balm on the political argument.

[Baroness Royall of Blaisdon]

My Lords, perhaps I may defend the previous Government, who undertook a long series of randomised trials and worked with scientists to try to find a scientific base for future action. Does the Minister accept that there is much relief in the Forest of Dean this afternoon as a consequence of this Statement? The majority of people in the forest, including many farmers, did not want a badger cull that was not based on scientific evidence, was not economic and would not provide the necessary solution to the devastating effect of bovine TB on herds and farmers but that would decimate the badger population. I should add that the police of Gloucestershire are also much relieved to have their leave restored. Can the Minister reassure me that the Government will now use the pause to pursue a firmly scientifically-based solution which will also have a sound economic basis? Will he also agree to update this House regularly so that we can try to find a solution on which there can be some political consensus? We all want to be involved in pursuing that.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I have said that we are pursuing all options and I do not think that I can say much more than that. However, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for her offer of help.

[Lord Willis of Knaresborough]

My Lords, the Minister has rightly referred to scientific evidence, as has the noble Lord, Lord Krebs. It is clear that the scientific evidence that the Minister and his colleagues are getting is different from that which a significant proportion of the scientific community is getting. What reassurance can he give us that an independent group of scientists will be brought together to examine this process transparently and that a regular report will be made to this House, as the noble Baroness said, rather than waiting for another crisis until such a report is made?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, my noble friend will know that a great number of professionals, scientists and experts are already involved in this process. There is also, indeed, an independent panel which will monitor the results of the cull, and we are extremely grateful for all the advice that we get.

[Lord Christopher]

My Lords, there have been probably inescapable pressures on farmers to manage cattle as they do. Will the Government also look, among the options, at any evidence suggesting that the resistance of our present herds has been lowered not least as a result of inbreeding? For example, how many bulls are responsible today for our white cattle herds of Holsteins and Friesians?

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, I have heard no evidence that inbreeding contributes to the incidence of TB.

Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Tuesday 16th October 2012 Lords Chamber

Moved By

[Lord De Mauley]

That the draft Welfare of Wild Animals in Travelling Circuses (England) Regulations 2012 be referred to a Grand Committee.

Motion agreed.

Infrastructure Planning (Waste Water Transfer and Storage) Order 2012

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft orders laid before the House on 27 February and 26 March be approved.

Relevant documents: 56th Report from the Merits Committee, Session 2010-12; 42nd and 44th Report from the Joint Committee on Statutory Instruments, Session 2010-12; considered in Grand Committee on 28 May.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move the first two Motions standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor on the Order Paper en bloc.

Motions agreed.

British Waterways Board (Transfer of Functions) Order 2012

Lord De Mauley Excerpts

Monday 11th June 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach]

That the draft orders be referred to a Grand Committee.

[Lord De Mauley]

My Lords, with the leave of the House, I beg to move the second two Motions standing in the name of my noble friend Lord Taylor on the Order Paper en bloc.

Motions agreed.