Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 2nd March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I am grateful for the amendment, which raises an important issue about human nature, if nothing else.

Removing consent barriers from the Green Deal journey is of course crucial to the success of the initiative. We agree with the sentiment behind the amendment. We want as many people as possible to take out a Green Deal, and the consent process must therefore be as straightforward as possible. However, we also need to be aware of the rights of property owners and tenants to object to works on their property or the addition of a Green Deal charge to their energy bill. Given this, we need to ensure that any options to overcome consent barriers achieve a balance between respect for these existing rights and unblocking barriers, which could hinder people’s ability to take out the Green Deal.

The noble Lord has just flagged up a very important and very complex issue. I assure him that officials clearly fully understood what the noble Lord said in Committee and are actively working to address the barriers. We will continue dialogue across government to identify solutions. The work is ongoing. I hope that that reassures him. He flagged up a very important area that is now being worked on. Because of that we are not yet in a position to accept the amendment.

I am certainly struck by what my noble friend Lord Deben says in regard to this and hope that he will continue to lead in this area as he always has. I like the notion of the missionary as opposed to the mercenary, but it is worth bearing in mind that some people are not too keen on missionaries either. I hope that at this stage the noble Lord will be willing to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have participated in the debate. What has been identified, as I think the noble Lord, Lord Deben, acknowledged, and certainly as my noble friend Lord Whitty did, is that this is a difficult area but one that we have to confront if we are going to effect improvements. Again I am grateful to my noble friend Lord Whitty for pointing out how important the private rented sector is and how much the improvements have to be generated in that area to reach the targets to which we all subscribe. The success of the Bill will depend on success in that area as much as in any other.

I appreciate the response made by the noble Baroness, but she will appreciate that she is asking the House to take things somewhat on trust: namely, that the Government recognise a problem but are not quite in a position yet to identify what their solution might be. That is a very difficult thing to say while a Bill is passing through Parliament because, as we all appreciate in this House, this might be close to being the last time that we can address ourselves to this issue. Consequently, we must hope that the department is successful in the work that it has done under the guidance of Ministers who, I have no doubt, will be strenuous in these terms.

Because I am happy to put my trust in Ministers with regard to the objectives of the Bill, I will indeed withdraw the amendment in a few moments, but I hope they recognise that Parliament will expect answers to this and related problems of similar complexity and difficulty, because, although I am entirely with the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that the best approach is the missionary approach, we have an exercise to sell and we all have a role to play in that to convince our fellow citizens of the advantages. A lot of progress has been made. If you look at public opinion polls in response to concerns about issues that the Bill seeks to confront, there is no doubt that we are making progress. However, there is a long way to go and things differ enormously from a general response in an opinion poll and where—dare I say it?—hard cash and the mercenary come into play. Therefore, I wish the Government well and I beg leave to withdraw my amendment.

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[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, these amendments do three things. First, Amendments 55, 80, 87 and 90 seek to refine the definition of “subordinate legislation” in the Bill. This would make it explicit that the Secretary of State is able to amend Welsh subordinate legislation under the powers in Clauses 31, 39, 42 and 45 relating to redress and appeals. This power is needed to ensure that the Secretary of State can properly implement the redress and appeals mechanisms required by Chapters 1 and 2 in Wales.

Secondly, Amendment 93 requires the Secretary of State to consult Welsh Ministers before making PRS regulations that relate to domestic private rented properties in Wales. This amendment reflects the interest that the Welsh Ministers have in this area.

Thirdly, Amendments 64, 63 and 93 require the Secretary of State to have obtained the consent of Welsh Ministers before amending or revoking Welsh subordinate legislation pursuant to the redress and appeals provisions in Clauses 31, 33, 39, 42 and 45. The requirement to obtain consent does not apply where the Secretary of State is making only incidental or consequential amendments.

Our officials have been working with the devolved Administrations and territorial offices throughout the Bill process, I am sure noble Lords will be pleased to hear. Wales has confirmed that it is content with the government amendments that we are moving here on Report. Our engagement with Wales is ongoing; my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will be giving evidence to the National Assembly for Wales Sustainability Committee in Cardiff on 10 March, and my honourable friend the Minister of State will be speaking in the Welsh Grand Committee in the other place, also on 10 March. We will continue to work closely with Wales throughout the passage of the Bill. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, I am not going to raise any objection to amendments that take account of the interests of Wales. I am just somewhat amazed that the Government missed the opportunity to do this on 1 March rather than on 2 March.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Baroness Northover

Monday 31st January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, is right to remind us that exempting certain goods from the normal rate of VAT is a matter for the Treasury. We are all too well aware that the Treasury looks at these issues with a sharp eye and intensive scrutiny at any time, but in this age of austerity that position is likely to be intensified. As the noble Lord indicated, the noble Baroness, Lady Maddock, is seeking to build on the 5 per cent reduced rate of VAT that already applies to a number of installations that relate to energy conservation, both to encourage householders to install energy-saving facilities and as a clear earnest of the Government’s intent that these issues are significant enough for us to look at them in this regard, albeit not quite as we do food and children’s clothes, which attract no VAT. Nevertheless, the 5 per cent rate relates to a clear priority area; it is an exclusive area. In her amendment, the noble Baroness wants to extend that area.

I am not in the slightest doubt about the merits of doing that and I think that, in the framework of the Bill, we should indicate that we think that this will give substance to the Bill’s principles. However, like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I acknowledge—no doubt the Minister will also indicate this to the Committee—that it is difficult to write Budgets in the framework of energy legislation when that is the preserve of the Chancellor of the Exchequer and the Treasury. I would not be at all surprised if we had a somewhat guarded response to the amendment. However, we already have provision of the reduced rate in this area and the amendment would not add a great deal, although the Treasury might argue that the cost would be significant. Nevertheless, the amendment fits in with the pattern of reduced rates of VAT in this area and I hope that the Minister will indicate that, at the very least, the Government have an open mind on the issue.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, the purpose of Amendment 32 is a perfectly understandable aim. However, we have been advised that this proposal would not fall within the scope of the Energy Bill, since taxation can only be amended in a Finance Bill. Therefore, as my noble friend Lady Maddock anticipated, I can confirm that taxes are indeed a matter for the Treasury and that the Chancellor keeps all taxes under review and announces any changes as part of the Budget process. We understand the thrust of what she is arguing, but I hope that on the basis of what I have said, my noble friends will feel able to withdraw the amendment.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, it will not surprise the Minister to hear that I agree entirely with the case made by the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes. The sanctions are a different and important dimension, which is why the Merits Committee referred to the issue. The Minister will know only too well that regard for the Merits Committee is such that, when it recommends the affirmative procedure rather than the existing negative procedure, Ministers normally agree, as I hope the noble Baroness will.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, the Bill does not intend to create any new criminal offences or impose financial penalties. However, we hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, says and we are indeed happy to look at this again on Report.

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[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Jenkin, I served on the Committee that produced the 2004 Act. It went on at least twice as long as we are destined to do. The noble Lord indicated that he has found a slight impediment in that Act. All I can say is that I did not see it at the time and I do not understand it now, so good luck to the Minister.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, I must say that I am incredibly impressed at the thoroughness with which my noble friend Lord Jenkin has read this Bill and that I hope that he very much liked Clause 78, which indeed consolidated and hopefully improved existing provisions.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Baroness Northover

Wednesday 26th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Baroness Northover]

We fully support the underlying—

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

No, my Lords, I have asked whether the noble Baroness intends to move the adjournment of this Committee. It is 7.45 pm. I have quite a lot to say on this Committee. In fact, I could probably go on for three and a half hours and I assure the Committee that I certainly will unless the Government recognise that rules are rules. To complain about what is going on in the Chamber, which is well within the rules, and to break the rules in Committee is quite unacceptable.

Energy Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Davies of Oldham and Baroness Northover

Monday 24th January 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

My Lords, we are getting to the complexities and challenges of the Green Deal. We had early indications this afternoon of the problems in the private rented sector; they are not solely in that sector, but they mushroom in significant ways so far as it is concerned. The important statistic that the noble Lord, Lord Best, brought in identifies the challenges before us. As the noble Lord, Lord Deben, argued on the previous amendment, it is no doubt important that we get as much information across as we can both to landlords and to tenants. This is a major public information task, and we should make sure that this legislation enhances and creates the opportunities for the spread of as much information as possible. Of course, as my noble friend Lord O’Neill identified, there will be groups who are difficult to reach and for whom the relevance will be limited; that is where a significant challenge is represented by this legislation. We want the Minister’s assurance that he appreciates how important it is that the legislation be as enhancing as it can be on the need to distribute information so far as possible, and that we succeed in bringing the nation on board with regard to the objectives, benefits and significance for society. We have a whole range of private interests that are massively diverse, so we should recognise the challenge that the Government face.

[Baroness Northover]

My Lords, it is vital as a thread running through this debate that we ensure that this deal has as wide an impact as possible, and we welcome the input that noble Lords are putting into how that is to be achieved.

The nature of the review, as my noble friend Lord Marland has indicated, will be discussed in a bit more detail shortly. I would note to the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill, in terms of hurdles to tenants, that this is one of the reasons we want to give local authorities the power if needed to require improvements in the worst accommodation. When my noble friend Lord Teverson said that he had to declare an interest, I was hoping that it was not that he was a landlord of the type mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord O’Neill; it was reassuring that he was of the type mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Best.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Noakes, for tabling this amendment, which would require that the review investigates the willingness of tenants to take on Green Deal repayments. We understand the intent behind this proposal. As she herself said, the golden rule should mean that tenants’ bills should not go up as a result of the Green Deal because of the energy savings they will be making. I see her slightly dissenting. That is part of the way this has been structured but we are well aware of the points that have been made in previous debates on that.

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[Baroness Northover]

I hear what my noble friend says. We will debate the review in more detail. My noble friend Lord Marland has indicated that, in addition to the areas that are listed in connection with the review, there is the possibility that it will consider other things. It may be that the department should give some thought to this area.

I will respond to my noble friend Lord Teverson. I am concentrating on DfID, justice, et cetera. I am pretty sure that in this situation, should a tenant decide that they want to take a holiday from opting into the Green Deal, that would be possible. I remember being briefed on that. That may fit the situation that the noble Lord spoke about in which a tenant decides that it is not in their interest that the Green Deal is pushed down the track and that they do not want to repay the charge. I will make absolutely sure that I am right about that.

I am briefed that one cannot renegotiate the charge, but one can have a repayment holiday. Therefore, should the tenant decide in that instance that that is what they want to do, that would be possible. It does not mean that the money does not have to be paid back. However, it may not have to be paid back by that particular tenant at that time. It has also been pointed out to me that there will be a Green Deal ombudsman who will provide some protection. I hope that that will reassure noble Lords.

[Lord Davies of Oldham]

The Minister is doing her best in what we all appreciate is a very difficult area. We all understand that the tenant’s response is optional. We discussed this in the previous sitting of the Committee. We cannot have a situation where a tenant exercises an absolute veto, because one person might operate a veto on 400 fellow tenants, all of whom agreed to the change. We all recognise that there is no veto. However, there is an issue about a tenant's consent and subsequent payments. The Minister is leading us down some strange paths. Are we saying that the holiday could last for the whole period of their tenancy, however long that might be? Who makes the judgment on the right to opt out of an agreement that admittedly may have preceded their arrival in the tenancy? How do they exercise the opt-out, for how long, in which circumstances and who is the adjudicator?