Pension Schemes Bill

Lord Davies of Brixton Excerpts

Monday 23rd February 2026 Grand Committee

[Lord Kirkhope of Harrogate (Con)]

My Lords, I will intervene briefly in support of my noble friend’s amendment—not on the specifics but because, having read again the 42nd report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, which refers directly to this legislation, it has become ever more obvious that this skeleton, which has taken up an enormous amount of time and is in itself highly complex, leaves an enormous number of question marks. It leaves an enormous number of doubts and concerns, most of which the Government are placing at their own disposal through secondary legislation, which is at this point equally uncertain.

Therefore, it seems absolutely essential that, when there are proposals such as those we have just heard from my noble friend—to review the commencement of the legislation, or to have reviews on a five-yearly basis, or indeed in any other ways, of some of the more complex areas—the Government should concede that that is appropriate in a Bill of this kind. I do not think I have ever read in my time here such a clear statement as that made by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee about the nature of legislation. It would be serious enough if it were dealing with a Bill with very few clauses and of little import, but this is of such a substantial nature. The report we have read condemning the nature of the Bill for not having the flesh around those skeletal bones is notable and important. The Government should therefore be much more amenable to the sort of sensible proposals being made in the amendments of my noble friend.

I do not wish to speak further on this, but it seems terribly important that—whether it is dealt with now or at a later stage—there be an understanding that the Bill is entirely dependent upon future secondary legislation. Standing alone is, I am afraid, an unacceptable set of provisions.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

There can be no objection in principle to having a review; all public policies should be open to review. The objections are practical, such as whether it would be a waste of time for the people who would have to undertake the review, who might have better things to do. Undertaking reviews can lead to planning blights; measures that need to be carried forward are held back because of some form of review being undertaken that is not central to the measures currently in the Bill.

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[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

This is about impartial pensions advice. Had I heard the noble Lord’s speech, I would have said that I did not accept his arguments. What I want is a pensions system that works without people needing advice. Proper pensions advice is extremely expensive, and on the idea that everyone will get at least twice during their working life full and adequate pensions advice—no, we do not want to encourage that. I would encourage a pensions system that works properly.

Then we have the Police Pension Scheme. I have talked to those campaigning on the issue on a number of occasions and I totally agree that it is entirely unfair that the spouses of some members of the scheme, when those members retire and die, will receive a pension—until they are accused of cohabiting or decide to get married. That happens only in the public sector; virtually no private sector schemes do that sort of thing, and the only ones that do are those that have carried over those rules from the public sector. To be honest, that is nasty. People naturally resent losing the money, and then become open to tittle-tattle and intrusive investigations; that is just wrong. Clearly, there is a cost involved, because there is a carryover to other public service schemes—but it is just wrong; it is treating people badly for no good reason other than history.

I hope that the Government will be able to make a positive response on Amendment 215. I do not have a lot of hope, but I am eternally hopeful. I apologise for jumping in ahead of the noble Lord, Lord Palmer.

[Lord Palmer of Childs Hill (LD)]

My Lords, I say to the noble Lord, Lord Davies, that no apology is needed.

This is a wide-ranging set of review and process amendments. The noble Viscount, Lord Younger, explained what I think he described as his “modest” amendments—indeed, they are. The noble Lord, Lord Kirkhope, said that this was all set up for secondary legislation; we ought to take that point into account.

These amendments are linked by a common theme: whether the Government are willing to build a stronger evidence base for future pensions policy and to improve the basic safeguards for savers. Several of these amendments ask Ministers to review pension adequacy, contribution rules, labour market impacts and public understanding, while others seek an independent look at specific injustices or practical improvements to data accuracy.

These amendments are probing, but they raise real policy gaps. Taken together, they test whether Ministers are prepared to move beyond structural reform and address the practical foundations of trust in pensions, adequate incomes, fair treatment, accessible information and correct records. I hope that, in replying, the Minister will explain which of these issues the Government accept in principle and whether they believe that the existing powers, regulators and reviews are already sufficient. I expect that to happen. The Bill changes structures and powers, but savers also need fairness, clarity and accurate data. When Ministers resist new duties, they should set out a clear alternative route and timetable. I hope that the Minister will do so.

The noble Lord, Lord Davies of Brixton, made important points. We will disagree, but I shall pursue the amendments in my name. Amendment 214 in my name would establish a universal entitlement to free and impartial pension advice at key stages of life. It would ensure that everyone, not just the financially literate or well advised, can make informed decisions about retirement. Such advice would, I hope, be offered around the age of 40—a critical moment for mid-life planning and pension consolidation—and again within six years of expected retirement to support decisions on drawdown, annuities and retirement income options, which are a mystery to many people at that or any stage of life.

The advice would include essentials such as pension types—DB or DC schemes—investment strategies, charges and fees, consolidating multiple pension pots and retirement income choices, and would be practical, comprehensive and relevant. The advice would have to be qualified, independent and impartial. Trustees, managers and providers would have a role in facilitating access. Data sharing would be permitted, but with strong data protection safeguards.

This amendment in my name would also offer flexibility, in that responsibility could be placed with established bodies such as the Pensions Regulator, the Financial Conduct Authority and the Money and Pensions Service. It would be funded from prescribed sources to ensure sustainability. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, ensuring proper parliamentary scrutiny. Amendment 214 is designed to ensure that people have confidence in and clarity on their pensions, which, I assure noble Lords, many people do not have; to avoid poor decisions that undermine pension security, which many people make; and to make sure that everyone, not just those who can pay for private advice, gets the help they need.

The purpose of my Amendment 215 is to require the Secretary of State to commission an independent review into provisions in police pension schemes that result in the forfeiture, reduction or suspension of survivor pensions. It focuses on cases where survivor pensions are affected by remarriage—as mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Davies—civil partnership or cohabitation.

Why is this review needed? These provisions can have significant financial, social and emotional impacts on survivors and their families. This would ensure fairness and consistency with other public sector pension schemes—the Armed Forces, the NHS and the Civil Service—and would address potential inequities or outdated rules that disproportionately affect survivors. This review would ensure an independent—that is the point—and transparent process, as well as stakeholder consultation, reporting and accountability. The review panel must publish its findings and recommendations within 12 months. The report must be laid before both Houses of Parliament, ensuring transparency and parliamentary oversight.

This amendment is designed to act to assess the fairness and impact of current survivor pension rules in police schemes and to identify practical reforms that protect survivors’ rights while maintaining scheme integrity, to ensure that the system is consistent, equitable and transparent. I look forward to hearing whether the Minister addresses my points about these amendments.

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[Viscount Thurso (LD)]

My Lords, I rise to support my noble friend, particularly in respect of Amendment 218, to which I have added my name. I do so because I have something of an interest: for most of its existence and until quite recently, the superannuation fund of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority was based in Thurso. A number of my former constituents were beneficiaries of that fund and a small number of them ended up becoming beneficiaries of the AEAT plc fund, when that came into existence. It has always struck me that something remarkably close to mis-selling went on at the beginning and that we really have a moral duty to try to correct it.

I, too, looked at the comments that the Minister made in her speech on 5 February. As my noble friend pointed out, she said that the case around AEAT pensions had “been fully considered”. What sprang to my mind when I read those words was the scene in “Independence Day”, when the President is telling everybody that there is no such thing as Area 51 and Defense Secretary Nimziki says that that is not, strictly speaking, true.

Looking at the Minister’s comments that came afterwards that there were three ombudsmen involved, as my noble friend said, the ombudsmen were all asked and all declined, because of vires, to give an answer. Looking at the parliamentary scrutiny, that was two Westminster Hall debates, one by Sir Geoffrey Clifton-Brown and one by Sir Oliver Letwin, I think. As anybody who has done a Westminster Hall debate knows, that is not proper parliamentary scrutiny. Of much more importance were the NAO and PAC reports, which came to the conclusion that there was a case to answer. Indeed, the last Pensions Minister in the previous Government, Paul Maynard, accepted that something should be done and suggested that something would be done, but the election has intervened.

The core issue is that the Government Actuary’s Department, in its publications, gave the distinct impression that the quality of the pension for those who transferred would have an equivalent security to the quality of the pension that had the Crown guarantee with UKAEA. That is clearly not the case, which is the core issue around all this.

As an aside, and in parenthesis, there have been occasions when a Crown guarantee has in these circumstances been transferred across. I was in fact responsible for one when I was chairing VisitScotland and we took the Scottish staff out of the BTA scheme and obtained a Crown guarantee to let that happen, so it is perfectly possible.

This amendment gives an elegant redress that the Government can use to look at, as my noble friend says, a very small number of remaining pensioners suffering under this. I commend it to the Government. In summary, this seems to me to be something that, were it in the private sector and sold by a bank on the high street, would be called PPI, frankly. That is the level of it, in my humble judgment. Therefore, first, there is a duty to do something about a clear mis-selling. Secondly, it has not been properly scrutinised up until the NAO and PAC reports. Consequent on those reports, a previous Government Minister indicated that they would look at doing something about it. For all those reasons, we should now take this opportunity to right a manifest wrong.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

These two amendments are grouped together. There are clear common themes between them, the most obvious one being dissatisfied scheme members: dissatisfied pensioners concerned that they have ended up worse off than they might reasonably have expected. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, for his excellent description of both problems, and in broad terms I support the spirit behind these amendments. Of course, both of them call for a review, but in truth we do not really need a review; we know that wrong was done here and we are really asking for the Government to accept some responsibility for providing an element of redress.

Amendment 216 is actually about a thing called integration in pension schemes. This was a technique used widely in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, where the occupational pension had a target taking account of the state pension, integrating the state pension into the benefit model. Where the retirement age of the scheme was, for example, 60—we had schemes with a retirement age of 60 in those days—it was integrated by paying more money between 60 and 65. We are talking about a man here. That was when the state pension would come into payment. At that point, the scheme pension would be reduced to allow for the fact that they are now getting this pension from the state.

That is an issue of scheme design, and my view is that the rules of the scheme should be set through collective bargaining. The problem is that that sort of arrangement is much more obvious to someone like me with a lot of experience. I sometimes would claim that my superpower is understanding scheme rules. It is absolutely clear to me, but I can well understand that an ordinary member of the scheme would not immediately have that understanding. Of course, it is quite possible that they see their pension being cut when they get to state pension age. In some schemes, it is actually cut before they get to state pension age now, because the rules still refer to a reduction at 65 and the state pension is not payable until 66, so there are big problems.

Of course, it is possible to look at it the other way around: the member is actually getting a bigger pension after state pension age, and that is to their advantage. This goes to the central point, which is a lack of understanding among scheme members. Were they misled into giving more credit to the scheme? Clearly, for the particular campaigning groups we have heard from—under Amendment 216, there are a number of different groups—their case rests on the argument that the way the rules worked was not adequately explained to them, and they need compensation for how they were misled.

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The report was right: to give these benefits beyond the privileged few would indeed break the bank. However, as we have seen, giving such schemes just to that privileged 20% in the public sector breaks the bank anyway. A full review of and debate on this topic is surely essential and urgent.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I am glad that we are having this debate now, but only as a taster for a proper debate at a proper time—I am quite surprised that the clerks accepted this amendment as being within the scope of the Bill. I have no objection to a debate on public service pensions; I encourage one. I feel totally comfortable with having a debate on public service pensions, because I think they are eminently defendable. I accept very little of what the noble Lord has said, and the doom and the gloom that has been expressed, and a proper opportunity to have that debate would be very welcome, but I shall focus on the need for a review.

Of course, as we have been told, my noble friend Lord Hutton of Furness undertook an independent review of public service pensions in 2010-11. That review was established by the coalition Government; they set it up, they accepted its recommendations and they gave a guarantee. In a Written Statement on 20 December 2011 about Civil Service pension arrangements, the noble Lord, Lord Maude of Horsham, who was then an MP and Minister for the Cabinet Office, gave

“a guarantee, outside of the scheme designs parameters”—

that is what the benefits were—

“of no further reform for the next 25 years”

I do not know what people think a guarantee means, but to me it means no more changes for 25 years. Of course, the Statement was repeated in your Lordships’ House and the noble Lord, Lord Wallace of Saltaire, repeating the Statement, also gave a guarantee for the next 25 years. I mentioned to both noble Lords that I would be quoting their words in this debate, and it would be worth asking them what they think the word “guarantee” means. A guarantee was given to public service workers as part of their terms and conditions of employment. It was not just a policy objective; it was part of their terms and conditions of employment. I think that to make changes without breaking the guarantee would be an extremely bad approach to the settlement.

I agree with very little of what was said criticising public service pensions, but I think there is a need specifically to understand the arrangements. First, retirement age will increase in line with state pension age. That is an adjustment mechanism. The more important adjustment mechanism is that there is a cap on employer costs, and it is members who stand the risk of having their benefits cut if the cost escalates. None of that was reflected in the remarks made so far. That cap, as has been explained, is calculated using a discount rate, and that discount rate is determined in a way that adjusts for economic changes. As mentioned, a higher discount rate reduces the cost of future benefits. At the same time, a lower discount rate increases the cost of benefits. If the cost of benefits increases, as part of the settlement that was reached, members’ benefits have to be cut or their contributions increased. That is the nature of the settlement that was reached in 2011. I think it is totally wrong to mislead the Committee about the nature of the deal that was done. Am I allowed to say “mislead”?

[Lord Moynihan of Chelsea (Con)]

I hope the noble Lord will withdraw that word. I do not recognise what he is saying. My noble friend was talking about the NHS. Was it NHS workers who were required to put in that extra money?

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

It is interesting. I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. Okay, I withdraw the word “mislead” and I apologise for using it, but the full picture was not given to members of the Committee about the nature of the public service pension arrangements. Member contributions are adjusted and have been adjusted because of increasing costs. In fact, at the valuation before last, because of the way the economic indicators work, the cost actually fell, and the last Government had to push through urgent legislation in order to stop members’ benefits being increased. I will not use the word “fiddle”, but the terms were adjusted to protect the employer rather than giving additional benefits to members, so if anyone has a complaint about the way this system has worked, it is the members, even before we get to the problem of the 10-year guarantee that arose.

As I said, I would welcome the opportunity of a proper debate defending the way in which public service pensions are provided in accordance with the Hutton report as agreed by the coalition between the Conservatives and the Liberal Democrats. The one thing on which I agree with the noble Lord is that we need pension arrangements in which we are all together. I agree totally. Given that the underlying question is what sort of incomes we want people to have in retirement and whether we want them to be adequate, I think the objective should be to offer people in the private sector the opportunity to accrue pensions on the same terms as those provided to people in public service. I will be setting that all out in my submission to the Pensions Commission.

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[Baroness Coffey (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to speak to the Committee about pensions dashboards.

I am conscious that this has been quite a long journey in terms of trying to get the pensions dashboard in the Pension Schemes Act 2021 initiated. I am aware that, at the time, the House of Lords was keen that there should not be a private dashboard, but the House of Commons gave its strong view. As a consequence, the Bill went through without specifying that DWP and MaPS had to produce a public sector pension dashboard first because we were concerned—I am still concerned—that the longer people do not know what is going on with their pensions, the shorter the time they may have to make informed choices or, at least, to consider and understand what their pension and retirement will look like in future. That is why I have tabled this amendment.

Two things come out of that. One is that, in essence, what is required is for the Financial Conduct Authority to sort out all the different bits in order to allow private sector pension dashboards to get the necessary data and to be allowed to start operating. Indeed, Pensions Dashboards Regulations that were passed a couple of years ago were amended to remove the dashboard’s available point.

Let me go on a slight journey; I do not intend to delay the Committee for very long, but I am really concerned about progress. I am aware of the reset that happened and the issues around what triggered it, which I do not think are public, but we are nevertheless in a situation where we should be making more progress than we are. It is notable that, in a Written Ministerial Statement in October 2024, the then Pensions Minister, Emma Reynolds, changed the Government’s policy from what had been the case; in effect, it had been neutral on what was happening around trying to get these dashboards going. She put in place a policy, which is still live in government today, saying that we must make sure that the DWP/MaPs dashboard comes out first and is well tested, and then we will start. We are still committed to doing the private sector-run dashboards but not to any particular date.

I am grateful to the Minister for putting on a recent briefing and to the chief executive of MaPS and the team coming to do that, but I have to say that I was somewhat alarmed that it still feels as if we are a long way off. I appreciate the connection deadline has not changed. It was great in a recent parliamentary Answer to see the progress of data provided, but it started to get me concerned about exactly the issues I considered several years ago: that once we get into MaPS and DWP starting to decide what are the best ways to do some of this communication and what user testing works well, they end up missing out on the opportunity of what the private sector does every day in terms of clear communication. That does not mean to say we are looking for a cowboy scheme—far from it as there is still the Financial Conduct Authority—but that we make more rapid progress than is happening now.

I know some of the pensions schemes people are happy to no longer have the six months. I know from the latest update from the programme board as part of the advisory group in December 2025 that despite acknowledging that the Government were clear that there would not be a private sector dashboard allowed anywhere near to the launch date of the public sector dashboard its number one issue was trying to make sure that that was available as quickly as possible.

I am conscious of things that seem to go awry. There had been amber ratings for a while, then, all of a sudden, there was a red rating on the pensions dashboard. Nevertheless, we are still making slow progress, and I feel that we should open this opportunity to make sure we have pension dashboards available as quickly as possible. With the best will in the world, MaPS is not moving quickly enough. I do not believe we will have a MaPS/DWP dashboard until some time in 2027.

The original intention when MaPS took this over— in 2023 I think—was that the connections would be completed by then. I fully understand the history on that. This is the opportunity to get on with this. We have spent a lot of time in this Bill saying we want to make sure people have better returns and better understanding of what is happening with their money in different ways. For me, the dashboards are a key part of that, and at the moment, it feels that while the Government have not deliberately decided to go slowly, we are going slowly as a consequence of their policy choices. It is vital that members of pension schemes know their situation so they can make the necessary choices.

I am sure the Government recognise that they did not communicate all the way back in 2005 and then were found to have caused maladministration in terms of the WASPI women as a consequence. We are not getting into a debate on compensation or something like that, but it is important we let people know as soon as possible, and that is why I have tabled this amendment today. I beg to move.

[Lord Davies of Brixton (Lab)]

I urge the Minister in her reply to stress the need for caution in this area. I am afraid I understand what the noble Baroness, Lady Coffey, is saying: we do seem to have been waiting a long time for the dashboard. However, I have always had questions about the private sector dashboard, and I think they can be answered only as and when the MaPS dashboard is up and running. The problem at heart—and it may be a caricature—is about the point of a private sector dashboard. It could all too easily be a way of getting hold of data. It is the old saying that you are not the customer, you are the product. That is the fear with the private sector dashboard, which is why we have to get the public sector dashboard up and working. We know what the issues are. It may be necessary to have private sector dashboards, but I am still not totally convinced.

[Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)]

My Lords, I will speak in broad support of Amendment 218D, tabled by my noble friend Lady Coffey.

Let me start by recording my thanks to the Minister, the Pensions Dashboards Programme team and MaPS for the recent briefing session afforded to noble Lords, which was thorough; I felt that it was constructive, and, if I may say so, reassuring in so many respects. We heard that some three-quarters of workplace and personal pension memberships—that is, around 60 million people—are now connected to the ecosystem. This is no small achievement; we should acknowledge that. We were told that the October 2026 connection deadline remains on track, which is of course welcome.

Connecting schemes to the system is one stage, while ensuring that the dashboard operates effectively for consumers is another. Delivering the money helper dashboard, important though that is, is not the same as establishing a fully functioning marketplace that includes private sector dashboards. These are separate phases of the programme and ought to be treated as such.

In that context, we were taken through the money helper dashboard and its intended customer journey. It is a significant and necessary first step—no one disputes that—but it is explicitly designed to be the foundation, not the finished structure. The question that therefore arises is a straightforward one: what is the clearly defined pathway from that foundation to the wider ecosystem that Parliament was originally invited to envisage?

As my noble friend Lady Coffey said, the Government have confirmed, most recently in October 2024, that the money helper dashboard will be made available to the public before any private sector dashboards are permitted to launch. I understand this sequencing to some extent. It is sensible to test the system, assess customer behaviour and ensure that it is secure and reliable. To that extent, I understand the approach that the noble Lord, Lord Davies, has taken; he used the word “caution”. However, mine is a slightly different point—it chimes with those from the noble Baroness and my noble friend Lady Coffey—which is that there should be at least a plan and a timetable.

The Government have stated their commitment to private sector dashboards in principle. A commitment in principle must now be matched by clarity in practice, which is why I think that my noble friend’s amendment is very much necessary. When do the Government expect private dashboards to be authorised? If a firm date cannot yet be provided, can the Minister at least set out the framework within which that decision will be taken? What are the stages? What are the criteria? What is the intended sequence of regulatory approvals? Over what period do the Government expect those steps to be completed?

We are told that private dashboards will proceed only once the service is judged to be reliable, safe and secure, and once, of course, it has satisfied the FCA, the Department for Work and Pensions, the Pensions Regulator and MaPS. This is entirely proper, but does that mean that no indicative timetable can be offered until every test has been passed? Surely not. Is there no internal planning assumption or projected window? How are industry participants expected to prepare if there is no sense of when authorisation might realistically occur? Is there not a risk that the programme becomes defined solely by the October 2026 connection deadline? What sits beyond that date? What is the Government’s intended next milestone? Without a clear forward plan—this is my point—how can Parliament assess progress?

My noble friend’s amendment does not seek to override safeguards. It simply seeks clarity and discipline. The proposal that the FCA should open the gateway to private dashboard operators within six months of the public dashboard going live would establish a reasonable and clear expectation. If the Government disagree with that period, what alternative do they propose? What is their preferred timetable?

There is also a practical issue, which cannot be ignored, because the successful introduction of private dashboards will depend heavily on data quality; that has been mentioned. What is the Government’s current assessment of the accuracy and completeness of data across connected schemes? Where are the known weaknesses, and what remedial action is under way? How frequently is data quality being tested and reported?

I know that this is a familiar question that has been asked as we have been taken through the progress on the dashboards programme—I have been very grateful for the updates—but what engagement is taking place with schemes and providers to ensure that preparation extends beyond technical connection and moves towards operational readiness? Are the communications with industry focused only on meeting connection deadlines, or do they also address the standards required for a competitive, consumer-facing environment?

In conclusion, this programme has significant potential, but potential must be matched by a structured plan. Parliament is entitled to understand not only where the programme stands today but where it is going and on what timetable. My noble friend Lady Coffey is right to press for that clarity and, unapologetically, I have asked a lot of questions that chime with her. I await the Minister’s response with interest.