Defence: 2.5% GDP Spending Commitment

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Thursday 14th November 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in 1935 we were spending less than 3% on defence? We failed to either deter or appease Hitler. Is he further aware that, in 1939, when the war had broken out, our defence spending rose to 19% and in 1940, when we were fighting for our lives, it was 46%? That is the disastrous cost of fighting a war. Does he agree that we must do all we can to prevent history repeating itself?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I completely agree. The noble Lord will know that at various conferences and in various decisions I have made I have talked about the importance of deterrence. That has to be at the forefront of our minds as well.

Afghan Special Forces Relocation Review

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Tuesday 15th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, for the work he did on this, and for his general welcome and question. If noble Lords will forgive me, because it is such an important question I am going to read an answer, which is unusual for me. It is important that this is accurate with respect to Pakistan and the question from the noble Baroness. I apologise for this, but it is important that we get this right.

We are in regular contact with the Government of Pakistan and we are very grateful for their continued assurances that ARAP-eligible Afghans who have completed their security checks will not be deported. If an individual in scope of the review has their decision overturned, they should be offered the same level of protection from deportation from Pakistan. We are engaged in ongoing constructive dialogue with the Government of Pakistan over the ARAP scheme.

We have explored every avenue to try to extend protection from deportation enjoyed by Afghans in Pakistan. We have confirmed eligibility and completed security checks for those in scope of the review while it is under way. While we have not been able to find a mechanism for achieving this on the UK side, we are grateful to the Pakistan authorities for their continued assurances that ARAP-eligible Afghans will not be deported. Indeed, to my knowledge, no Afghan with confirmed ARAP eligibility has been deported from Pakistan. We look forward to their ongoing support as we relocate Afghans to begin their new lives in the UK.

I apologise for reading that, but it is important to be completely accurate.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. If any of the groups or individuals who supported the British forces in Afghanistan deserve proper treatment, it is the Triples, who supported our special forces in difficult and dangerous circumstances. In welcoming the content of the lengthy Statement, I am pleased that there is no party-political issue.

Would the Minister agree with me on two things? First, Mr James Heappey and the former Minister of State for Veterans’ Affairs Mr Johnny Mercer played a significant role in this, at some risk to their personal integrity. Secondly, would he agree that 25% is an interesting figure? Could the Government err on the side of generosity and allow more than 25% and, where the circumstances are that the decision is in the balance, act in favour of the individuals? As I said, they are extraordinarily deserving. We have to be very careful of our national and international reputation when we operate in faraway places.

Combat Air Capability

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Thursday 10th October 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

As it stands, we are certainly sharing the costs with Italy and Japan, as the noble Baroness points out. Regarding other partners, we are considering that and discussions are taking place, without any firm commitment as it stands. Interoperability is key. She will know that Germany, France and Spain are also developing a sixth-generation fighter—SCAF—as is the United States. They are all part of NATO, so interoperability becomes essential.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, while we accept that future generations of fast jet aircraft should be able to fly off aircraft carriers and fixed land bases, will the noble Lord accept that we also have land forces that need major investment? Will he also consider that going to just 2.5% of GDP is wholly inadequate and that the conversation should be about 3% or 3.5%?

[Lord Coaker (Lab)]

The review will, of course, look at the necessary profile with respect to air, land, sea and intelligence and technology sharing. The Government have made an absolute commitment to 2.5% and are determined to deliver on that as soon as they can.

Royal Navy: Climate Change Training

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Thursday 14th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

That was a very nice allegory; I entirely agree. It is embedded in everything that all services, not just the Royal Navy, undertake. This is to ensure that what is inevitable—the climate change we are facing within the next relatively short period of time—is completely planned and catered for. As I said, that will give us a strategic advantage.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I think we can all agree that the main purpose of the Question is to express our concerns about the health of our planet. However, I will extend that to say that I am concerned about the health—as the noble Lord, Lord West, will be pleased to know—of the Royal Navy. Will the Minister comment on His Majesty’s Government’s view of the former Prime Minister Gordon Brown’s statement yesterday that the economy should be put on a war footing, not just to grow the economy, but to grow the size of the defence budget from 2.5% to 3% in the interests of the Royal Navy, the Army and the Royal Air Force?

[The Earl of Minto (Con)]

My Lords, I am increasingly thinking this is rather like Groundhog Day. I entirely agree, but the words “war footing” are slightly alarmist. There is no doubt that we are in a considerably more unstable environment and that we need to invest in industrial capacity to rebuild our stockpiles and re-equip all our forces. As I said the other day, we have 22 ships and submarines on order. We have 1,200 armoured vehicles currently on order. The RAF has its greatest lift capacity since the Second World War. The new Chinooks announced yesterday by the Secretary of State are extremely good news.

King’s Speech

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Wednesday 15th November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord, Lord Hannan, has suggested, there may be formula for following a maiden speech, but it is genuinely the greatest pleasure and a real privilege to follow the noble Lord, Lord Young of Old Windsor, and to congratulate him on his most excellent maiden speech, which focused quite appropriately on the importance of the Commonwealth, and to welcome him into your Lordships’ House. There is no doubt that the arrival of the noble Lord in this House will be of enormous benefit to our deliberations. After an early career with Barclays Bank, via a couple of years advising opposition shadow Ministers, the noble Lord then worked in the television media industry, first with Granada and later with ITV. In 2004, he began 19 years working in the Royal Household, first as Assistant Private Secretary then Deputy Private Secretary, and in 2017 he became the Private Secretary to Her late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. These years covered the noble Lord’s key role in the very successful state visit to Ireland; planning for the Diamond and Platinum Jubilees of our late Queen; culminating in the sadness of Her late Majesty’s death, the state funeral and the proclamation of His Majesty King Charles III. In his last months in office, the noble Lord, Lord Young of Old Windsor, worked jointly with Sir Clive Alderton to ensure a smooth succession within our monarchy. I have no doubt that our House will benefit hugely from the noble Lord’s insights into constitutional and other important matters.

It is also with great pleasure that I note His Majesty stated in the gracious Speech:

“My Government will continue to champion security around the world, to invest in our gallant Armed Forces and to support veterans”.


This very clear statement of intent is of course to be most warmly welcomed, but the live debate is how all this is to be delivered.

There is no shortage of issues to be championed around the world—Ukraine, Gaza, Sudan, Yemen and Armenia, to name but five. This Government’s record of support for veterans is significant: the establishment of the Office of Veterans’ Affairs, the appointment of a Minister of State for Veterans’ Affairs to sit in the Cabinet, and inserting a question into the last national census to determine the number of veterans in this country. All this is very positive and to be warmly welcomed.

My concern today is with the commitment

“to invest in our gallant Armed Forces”.

“Gallant” they most certainly are, but what about the level of investment? Of course, there are very many calls on the Chancellor of the Exchequer to spend more on this or that issue and, as we approach a general election, we often hear the refrain, “There are no votes in defence”. However, as we approach this election, I am not so sure that that mantra holds quite so true. We can debate whether the current international environment is the most dangerous it has been since 1939. However, whether true or not, we can rightly observe that our world is precarious: a war in Europe, a war in the Middle East, conflicts in Africa and deep tensions around Taiwan, compounded by migratory pressures as a consequence of climate change and an inequitable distribution of wealth in the world.

The previous Secretary of State for Defence argued passionately for a greater share of overall GDP to be spent on defence, and with some success. However, the increases that he managed to secure have been largely swallowed up by inflation, the deficits in the defence equipment programme and the huge costs of replacing our nuclear deterrent—a cost that previously sat outside the defence budget, being regarded as a core national capability. Today, the Ministry of Defence must absorb the nuclear replacement costs at the expense of our conventional capabilities.

Technology is, of course, the way forward but the disappointing fact of life for Chancellors of the Exchequer to accept is that new technology does not fully replace older technologies; one complements the other. The number of clubs in the golf bag grows—replacement is not on a one-for-one basis. If we need a vivid demonstration of this, we need look no further than the bloody close- quarter fighting going on in Ukraine and in Gaza City.

Once again, I make the case for increased investment in our overall defence budget and especially in our land forces. The current Chief of the General Staff and his senior officers are making the very best of the resources that have been made available to them, and I congratulate them on this, but they and other commentators know that the level of investment in our land forces is insufficient. We would not be upgrading only 148 Challenger 2 tanks or taking out of service the Warrior armoured infantry fighting vehicles were more money to be available, not to mention the depletion of war stocks of ammunition, largely gifted to Ukraine. Yes, there is more money in the future programme later in the decade but today only 20% of the future programmes are committed to contract, and the remainder stand vulnerable to reduced or cancelled funding.

In the early 1930s, history shows that there were no votes in defence, but in 1939, when faced with a rising threat in Europe, we knew that we had begun to rearm too late. Our Army was defeated on the battlefield in May and June 1940. Today, there is not just a threat to our security in Europe but a proven aggressor in Europe. In 1935, we spent 3% of our GDP on defence. In 1939, when we had realised our mistake, the figure rose to 18%, and by 1940, when we were fighting for our very survival, it was 46%. Today, we spend less than 2.4% on defence. Are we doomed to let history repeat itself?

Armed Forces

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Thursday 7th September 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I join other noble Lords in congratulating the noble Lord, Lord Soames, on securing this important and timely debate. I thank him for concentrating his remarks on the commitment and excellence of our soldiers, sailors, Air Force personnel and marines. As the war in Ukraine has demonstrated so starkly, it is the morale and determination of those in military uniform which results in success or failure on the battlefield.

However, we need to place what our excellent service people do on a daily basis in the context of the real world which is around us. The refresh of the integrated review earlier this year confirmed the tilt towards the Indo-Pacific and the need to support our allies and friends in that region in the face of an expansionist China. There is the unfinished business of confronting Islamist militancy in the Middle East and increasingly in Africa. Dominating across all environments is our support for Ukraine in defeating Russian aggression. This broadens out to our vital participation in NATO and other multinational commitments and the need for sustained deterrent deployments, such as in Estonia and Poland.

All this comes at a cost, especially in the land environment, which remains so poorly underinvested. In this month’s edition of the Army’s in-house magazine, Soldier, I was not surprised to read this:

“Talk to personnel in any section of the British Army at the moment and there is one piece of feedback you 'll hear over and over again; everyone is being asked to do more with less”.


Some will say it was ever thus, but I disagree. There have been times in the recent past when there was a balance between commitments and resources. Eventually this came right, at the height of the two campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan, but that was with an Army of over 100,000 regular soldiers and an Army Reserve near its recruited strength of 30,000. Today, we are not engaged in major combat operations ourselves but the criticism is still there: everyone is being asked to do more with less.

Is it any wonder that there is this imbalance when the Regular Army is on course to reduce to 73,000 soldiers and the Army Reserve is down to around 26,000? The ultimate illustration of “more with less” must surely be the situation in 1st Regiment Royal Horse Artillery, a close-support artillery regiment in 3rd Division—supposedly our one deployable war-fighting division. That regiment has no operational guns. An artillery regiment with no guns is truly reminiscent of the inter-war years, when football rattles replaced machine guns in training.

I exaggerate somewhat to make my point. We have gifted 32-tracked AS90 self-propelled artillery guns to Ukraine, but what about the replacement capability? That is what the commanding officer of 1st RHA needs to tell his soldiers about. It is a Swedish system called Archer. We have bought 14 of these wheeled vehicles and, all being well, they will be in service next November. What about our tracked Warrior infantry fighting vehicles? There was no money for a mid-life upgrade, so they are to be retired and a wheeled alternative introduced instead. Is the plan to upgrade only 148 of our Challenger 2 main battle tanks to Challenger 3 capability enough? Frankly, I mind less about the reduction in our manpower than I do about the reduction in our equipment.

Of course, there are those who would say that armoured fighting vehicles are oh-so 20th century and that the future is with hi-tech drones, clever imagery and high-speed communications, and of course they are right. However, the sad and expensive fact of life that Chancellors and Defence Secretaries must confront is that, as the conflict in Ukraine is showing, the new ways of warfare are not replacing the old ways of warfare but complementing them. A blending of the old chin-to-chin slugging match is as important today as the hi-tech developments of the 21st century. Satellite-informed button-pressing long-range firepower is in lockstep today in Ukraine with brutal gutter-fighting with bayonet, grenade and short-range drones. There are no revolutionary silver bullets. We are told that there is to be an investment in Army programmes—the Future Soldier programme— but largely towards the end of the decade. Is that good enough or soon enough? In any event, that programme must not be subject to further cuts when the squeeze comes.

In the 1930s, there was the threat of a dictator rising in Europe. We chose to appease him. Too late, we began to re-arm. Mercifully, just in time, we produced enough fighter aircraft to win the Battle of Britain. However, the British Army, undermanned, undertrained, underequipped and transported in wheeled lorries, faced an armoured enemy that had embraced the then new technology of the main battle tank. In May and June 1940, our Army was defeated in France and escaped annihilation via Dunkirk. Today, there is a new dictator in Europe—not just a threat but a proven aggressor. Are we re-arming? Are we increasing our defence expenditure? Are we taking our defence responsibilities seriously? In 1935, we spent 3% of GDP on defence. Today, it is not even 2.5%. By 1939 we were spending 18%, and in 1940 it was 46%. Does history have to repeat itself? I sincerely hope not.

Ukraine

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Friday 25th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I join the near-universal condemnation of current operations by Russia against Ukraine. Frankly, the return of violent war in Europe is an obscenity, and a return to state-on-state war is not acceptable in the 21st century. Putin and Putin’s Russia must pay the price for what they are currently carrying out. However, many of us will have seen that many Russians do not support what President Putin is doing. They see this as Putin’s war and the Kremlin’s war; it is not their fight and we need to recognise that.

In condemning what the Russians are doing, I commend the Ukrainians for the spirit with which they are resisting. They may be outgunned and out-tanked, but they are certainly not out-spirited, and we need to support that spirit. Our response must be unified, intense and sustained. The unity of the West is one of our strongest weapons. The sanctions being mooted must be the widest and deepest imaginable and, moreover, the isolation of Russia from all international fora must be complete. All this must be sustained for the long term.

If Putin’s operational aim is to effect regime change in Kyiv in order to bring Ukraine into the wider Russian sphere, I suggest that our strategic aim should be regime change in Moscow to bring Russia back into the family of civilised nations. Closer to home, I welcomed last year’s announcement by the Government of an increase in defence spending, but the quantum of that remains insufficient and the balance within it remains incorrect. Our land warfare capability has become a shadow of our other capabilities. Frankly, we need to see an investment in our main battle tanks, in our infantry fighting vehicles, our artillery and our air defence. We may aspire to put an armoured division into the field, but we cannot: at the most, we might be able to field a weak armoured brigade. That is completely unacceptable.

Theodore Roosevelt, speaking about international relations, said:

“Speak softly and carry a big stick”.


With regard to Ukraine, we have been speaking softly, but I ask: where is our big stick?

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 23rd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, I support these amendments, in particular Amendment 4, tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern. I have special reasons for doing so. I note that the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, said that, when he was in office, it took a long time to persuade local councils and devolved powers to agree to implement the covenant. I dispute the fact that he got them all to agree; I come from Northern Ireland and there is a particular problem there. For that reason, Amendment 4 is even more important.

In Northern Ireland, the devolved Government and many of the councils do not support the covenant. Therefore, where do we go for support? The only place we can go, without, if you like, disfranchising our veterans, is to a Secretary of State. I am sure the Minister will say that this amendment comes in the part of the Bill that affects England and that it therefore does not affect the other nations and cannot stand on its own. However, it would take just a stroke of a pen to add this for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.

The Northern Ireland issue is colossal. We do not have more veterans than anywhere else but, because of our Troubles and the local security forces, we have an awful lot more in relation to our size. Of course, we have veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan, as well. The number is significant, and these people have nobody at all to be their champion as far as the covenant goes.

At the moment—one does not need to go into the detail—the covenant is actually being administered quite well at a different level, below the radar, and we do not want to bring that up as a subject. However, on the idea of having a final place or person that people can go to, I support Amendment 4 because it brings a Secretary of State into this. It should therefore be written throughout that the Secretaries of State in the devolved areas have responsibility for this and are just quietly overseeing it. It is not necessarily a devolved issue and can be retained through the Secretary of State. He would have an influence on our veterans being supported as they should be. I certainly support these amendments.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I also support Amendment 4. I ask your Lordships to reflect on the origin of the Armed Forces covenant, which we find in the Armed Forces Acts, going back to 2011. It was not a new idea dreamed up by the Government of the day but the beginnings of the codification of something that had existed for quite some time as an informal covenant or agreement between those who serve and the Government who require them to carry out certain operations.

The covenant is effective when the balance between the requirements placed on the Armed Forces community and veterans is itself in balance. In the days and years leading up to 2011, when the Armed Forces covenant went into law, and particularly during the most difficult period when operations in Iraq and Afghanistan were being conducted together, the balance was definitely out of kilter and we were out of balance as far as the informal aspect of the covenant was concerned.

Who could better personify and embody the government side of the balance between the Government who require the Armed Forces to carry out operations and the servicepeople who conduct those operations than the Secretary of State? I fully support Amendment 4. I support the further codification of the covenant and any moves to increase its scope, but particularly the amendment in the name of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, which would make the Secretary of State a pinnacle and personification of the Government’s side of the covenant. That is absolutely critical.

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I too support Amendments 4 and 17. What brings me to this conviction is a case in which the widows of four soldiers from the Royal Marines were asked to leave their houses within three months of their deaths. They had nowhere to go. Another soldier who survived the same battle came to see me in Bishopthorpe, together with four other members of the Royal Marines, to say that we had to protest about the way widows were treated. There was talk about the covenant, but it had not yet come through. To raise the profile of this issue, they wanted me to join them in a parachute jump. At my age, this is quite serious business, but I thought that yes, I would join them. We were up there, at 14,500 feet, and, thank God, I survived; there was no real trouble, and I landed properly. Do you know what happened? People who saw this and learned what had been done donated a lot of money, and those four widows were housed in new builds, supported by a landowner who gave them a place to build houses.

That is what the covenant is about in the end: that we should look after anybody who has done their duty for the service of the Crown and the nation. The Bill is right to require local authorities and other places to have due regard to the covenant, but I would have thought that the Government should be first in line to have due regard to it, because the Secretary of State is answerable to Parliament, unlike local authorities. We could have some junior Minister reporting on what is happening and what is not happening, but the issue of democracy at the heart of this is that members of the Government are answerable to Parliament and can therefore be asked questions. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay, is right to include the Secretary of State in Amendments 4 and 17. If they were agreed, the covenant would no longer be given to people of good will to try to do whatever they want—the Government would actually be answerable, and we could ask them questions.

This amendment is timely. I hope we will all support it and that the Government will see it as an improvement, not an attempt to create more jobs and work for the Secretary of State. In the end, our soldiers ultimately look to them for a voice, for help and for support.

I did that parachute jump and was very glad to see the covenant a few years later, but it still did not quite do what this amendment is trying to do. I say to the Government: do not come back to this again—include the Secretary of State.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Tunnicliffe (Lab)]

My Lords, I rise to move Amendment 26, in the name of my noble friend Lord Coaker. We have retabled this amendment from Committee due to the strength of feeling on this issue across the House. Commonwealth service personnel and other non-UK personnel have contributed an enormous amount to our national defence, and we owe them a debt of gratitude.

Extortionate visa fees have left non-UK veterans facing financial ruin and feeling abandoned by the country they served with courage and distinction. I was shocked when the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig, said in Committee that Hong Kong veterans feel that

“they are being treated as aliens, not veterans of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces.”

I remember how the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said that the welcome approach to former Afghan staff means that government policy towards

“foreign and Commonwealth soldiers who have stood shoulder to shoulder with us and fought in many campaigns … is an anomaly and it is bizarre.”

I also remember how the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, said that the MoD policy change that now allows Gurkhas to apply some 18 weeks before leaving service

“does not address the issue of cost”.

The Minister stated:

“We recognise that settlement fees place a financial burden on non-UK serving personnel wishing to remain in the UK after their discharge”.


So why is action on this issue so slow? I am grateful that the Minister told the House that 6,398 responses were received in the Government’s consultation, but we are still not further forward when the Minister says only that

“the Government will publish their response in due course.”—[Official Report, 2/11/21; cols. GC 337-41.]

This answer is no longer acceptable. We need to know when and how the Government will act, and they should not hide behind the usual ministerial lines to kick the can down the road.

I remind the Minister of the large sums involved. Under current rules, Commonwealth personnel face a fee of £2,389 per person to continue to live in the UK, after having served for at least four years. This means that someone with a partner and two children could face a bill of £10,000 to stay in Britain. I will listen very closely to the Minister’s reply.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

I will make two points, a broader one and a narrower one that is particularly germane to this amendment. My broader point picks up the discussion in your Lordships’ House about the wider duty of care standard, which we debated in the context of the overseas operations Bill, introduced at Second Reading of this Bill and discussed and debated in Committee. I am encouraged by the Minister’s various responses at the various stages of these two Bills. The Ministry of Defence appears to be going very much in the right direction, which is why an amendment requiring the Secretary of State to put in place a duty of care standard has not featured on Report of this Bill.

My narrower point still relates to duty of care and duty of care standards, with particular regard to former service men and women who served in Hong Kong, Gurkhas, and foreign and Commonwealth individuals. The latter make up a large proportion of the British Armed Forces today. I come back to the very narrow point I made in Committee: it is an anomaly that among those withdrawn from Afghanistan in Operation Pitting in August were former members of the Afghan national army, who have now been given right of residence in this country and are in a better position than foreign and Commonwealth soldiers, and Gurkha soldiers who have served shoulder to shoulder with us for at least four years, and in many cases for much longer.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

Committee stage
Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Grand Committee

Moved by

[Lord Dannatt]

48: After Clause 18, insert the following new Clause—
“Mental health support
(1) A Minister of the Crown must make provision for additional mental health support for serving Armed Forces personnel, including but not limited to targeted support for serving Armed Forces personnel who have been affected by the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and Taliban takeover in Afghanistan in 2021.(2) This support should aim to improve mental health treatment provided to Armed Forces personnel through the Defence Medical Services, Department of Community Mental Health, the Veterans Mental Health and Wellbeing Service, and the Veterans and Reserves Mental Health Programme.(3) Progress, monitoring and evaluation of this support must be included in the annual Armed Forces Covenant report.” Member’s explanatory statement
This amendment would provide additional mental health support to serving Armed Forces personnel, including those who have been affected by the UK withdrawal and Taliban takeover in Afghanistan in 2021.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, in moving Amendment 48 I will speak also to Amendment 66A, both of which stand in my name and those of other noble and noble and gallant Lords.

I will address Amendment 66A first. Noble Lords will recall that a very similar amendment was tabled and debated during the passage of the recent overseas operations Bill in the previous Session of Parliament. Then and now, the amendment seeks to require the Ministry of Defence to identify a new duty of care to create a new standard for policy, services and training in relation to legal, pastoral and mental health support provided to service personnel, and to include a duty of care update in the Armed Forces covenant annual report.

Noble Lords will recall that our House divided twice on this issue, but the measure was overturned in the other place. In the interests of not losing the whole overseas operations Bill, the amendment was not pressed a final time. In concluding our previous debate on this subject, the Minister stated that perhaps the Armed Forces Bill was

“a more appropriate mechanism for any discussion of the wider duty of care owed to our people.”—[Official Report, 13/4/21; col. 1257.]

It is perhaps therefore no surprise that I am returning to this topic now, although I do not want to take undue time by rehearsing all the arguments made in our previous debate, the majority of which still stand.

That said, I am very aware that the Ministry of Defence has been working hard on duty of care related issues in recent months and I am sure that many serving personnel will already be benefiting from that work. However, the Minister for Defence Personnel and Veterans in the other place, during a debate on the duty of care amendment in the context of the overseas operations Bill, said that he wished to ensure that our care provided was at a gold standard. So I would be very grateful if the noble Baroness the Minister could update your Lordships on progress towards reaching this gold standard.

The initial impetus for Amendment 48 came in the aftermath of Operation Pitting as the final withdrawal from Afghanistan took place—but Op Pitting was only the most recent episode in a long series of operational settings that have put pressure on the mental health of our servicepeople. As with the duty of care issue, I am aware that the Ministry of Defence has been working hard on mental health matters. Nevertheless, I ask whether the Government’s recent mental health MoT announcement will include specialist support for personnel who have been affected by the withdrawal from Afghanistan. Indeed, could the Minister comment on what specialist mental health support has been offered to personnel involved in Operation Pitting?

Among the welcome recent initiatives, in October the Government announced the new annual mental fitness brief for UK Armed Forces. This is to be welcomed. The press release said it would be:

“Available on Defence’s internal learning platform”.


Can the Minister confirm whether face-to-face support will also be offered as part of this?

Very sadly, the tragic end of the mental health spectrum is the death by suicide of both serving and veteran members of the Armed Forces. In October the Armed Forces Minister said that the Office for Veterans’ Affairs had looked at how the frequency of suicide within the veteran community could best be measured and had identified a robust methodology. Can the noble Baroness explain this new methodology today? What frequency rate has been identified?

Furthermore, I was informed by the previous Veterans Minister that a new study was being undertaken to identify the rate of suicides among serving and veteran members of the Armed Forces. Previously, studies have been based on data from the first Gulf War and the Balkans, but the intensity of recent campaigns more than justified a new study. Can the noble Baroness say whether that new study has been completed? If so, what did it reveal? I am not alone in believing that recent operations have led to a tragic upturn in the suicide rate.

While commending the recent improvements in mental health provision, I believe that more can be done. I look forward to hearing the noble Baroness’s response later. I beg to move.

[Baroness Brinton (LD) [V]]

My Lords, I have added my name to Amendment 48. As we heard from the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, it aims to improve mental health services and to provide additional support for serving personnel, particularly those affected by the United Kingdom’s withdrawal and the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan this year. I also support the other two amendments in this group, Amendments 60 and 66A.

At Second Reading I highlighted Operation Courage, a partnership between the NHS and Combat Stress and other mental health charities, whether Armed Forces-specific charities or local or specific mental health charities. In principle, Op Courage is a really good example of how mental health services for current serving personnel or veterans should be able to provide a strong, signposted short cut to mental health services when and where they are needed.

Combat Stress reports that during August it saw a doubling of calls to its 24/7 helpline. This was on top of already struggling to afford to offer its specialist treatment to around 1,600 veterans with complex mental health needs annually. It estimates that there are at least double that number out there who Combat Stress cannot afford to support.

As a charity, Combat Stress is currently 75% dependent on voluntary donations and the generosity of the public. I think we all know that donations to charities have significantly reduced during the pandemic. I have no doubt that with extra resources it and the other specialist mental health charities can deliver the services needed, because they understand the specific pressures facing serving personnel and the traumas that too many have to learn to live with, both during and after their terms of service.

Leo Docherty MP wrote to all MPs and Peers on 24 September, setting out the support available for service personnel and veterans, their families and the bereaved, should they need it. It was a helpful and informative letter, but it did not refer to when the further £2.7 million will be made available for Op Courage. Does the Minister have that detail available? Is it for spending in a particular period, or does it extend over more than one financial year?

The letter from Leo Docherty did not mention one welcome intervention in recent years: the training of mental health first-aiders in our Armed Forces. The mental health first-aid charity MHFA England says:

“In 2015/16, 3.2% of UK armed forces personnel were assessed with a mental health disorder—over 6,000 people. Many more go undiagnosed and untreated.”


When I have talked to service personnel who have become mental health first-aiders since their return from deployment in Afghanistan, I have heard of how the training that they received enabled them to recognise the warning signs this summer in those they currently serve with, as well as past comrades. One soldier told me that, in August, the community of personnel was able to come together on social media to support and encourage those reliving tough memories or, worse, flare-ups of PTSD. Because of their mental health first-aid training, they were able to help these colleagues to access phone lines—for example, to Combat Stress and other organisations.

How many Armed Forces mental health first-aiders are now in place? Will the extra funding announced in September include training for more mental health first-aiders in the future? Also, can the Minister explain how Op Smart, which was designed to develop mental resilience across personnel in the Armed Forces, sits with Op Courage? Op Smart is much to be welcomed, and is critical to personnel becoming not just self-aware but aware when colleagues may be facing problems. How is Op Smart, and specifically the mental health first-aider programme, funded? The last part of Amendment 48 talks about collecting data. It would be very beneficial to see data on all these issues, including, as the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said, on suicide. Can we find such data now? If not, will it be collected and, as the amendment says, included in the annual covenant report?

I return to the extra £2.7 million of funding. Many current and former service personnel who served in Afghanistan and elsewhere, and are currently reliving their traumas, need to access NHS mental health services, including crisis care, right now. Unsurprisingly, these services are facing extraordinary pressure already. The NHS Providers activity trackers show that, for October 2021, referrals remain 10% higher than pre-pandemic levels, with many people having to wait significantly longer than the 18-week target time for their first contact.

In July, NHS England proposed setting new mental health access service standards, working in conjunction with Mind, the mental health charity, and Rethink Mental Illness. The new urgent care proposals would mean that community mental health crisis teams could reach patients within 24 hours of referral. The other key target for mental health liaison teams linked with A&E departments would also be rolled out across the rest of England. Detail on the actual level of funding to deliver this new target is still awaited. For this Bill, I am particularly interested in how all this will fit in with Op Courage. Perhaps the Minister can help me; if she does not have that information at her fingertips, could she write to me afterwards?

This amendment seeks urgent, extra, specific support for Op Courage—and, I hope, for Op Smart too—to ensure that all those people who are serving, or have served, their country do not fall through the net when they need mental health services.

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Finally, the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of St Albans has written to me. I read the letter with care but have not had time to respond to it. I thank him for his committed interest in these matters, and I undertake to respond to his letter. I hope that, following these assurances, the right reverend Prelate will agree to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, first, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate. We have discussed these matters for one hour and 35 minutes, which is much longer than I anticipated we would, but it is very good that we have had a tremendous number of points exercised. I also congratulate the House staff on grouping these amendments so cleverly. Amendments 48, 60 and 66A have come together in an extremely powerful fashion to underline the concern that many of us have about some of these issues.

I particularly thank the Minister for her most comprehensive answers to all the points made. It is true that part of the thinking behind the amendments we have discussed this afternoon was to invite her to give a comprehensive statement of where the department thinks that it is. I am grateful for her extensive, exhaustive and informative account of the many improvements and changes that the department has been making. I refer back to my opening remarks, when I paid credit to the Ministry of Defence for a number of the changes that have occurred in recent times. We all know that much progress has to be made—much has been made but, in many of these areas, much more has to be made.

In closing, I will make one comment. On two or three occasions, we have looked at data. It has been asserted that the Ministry of Defence does not find any oddity between the service population and the general population. I find that quite difficult to accept. A number of pieces of evidence have been alluded to during the course of this debate indicating that perhaps the Ministry of Defence’s data is not all that it should be, and perhaps there is an element of understanding what you want to understand as opposed to what the reality actually is.

I point particularly to suicide, which I raised and discussed 18 months ago with Johnny Mercer MP, then the Veterans Minister. He assured me that two investigations were going on, comparing the incidence of suicide arising from Iraq and Afghanistan to the historic data of the first Gulf War and the Balkans. I was promised that this information would be available. I am now told that there is another study, which will report in spring 2022. Asking questions is a good thing but we also need some answers because, when we have them, we have a factual base, and we can then start to build some better policy. I make that comment as an aside, and I thank the Minister for her comprehensive updating of your Lordships about where we have got to.

At the present moment, I am content to withdraw Amendment 48 and not to move Amendment 66A. I should like to analyse, as others will, the information that has been given this afternoon and see where we might go in the context of Report.

Amendment 48 withdrawn.

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[Viscount Brookeborough (CB)]

My Lords, I rise to ask for some clarification from the Minister. On the first day of Committee I mentioned, perhaps in a slightly inappropriate place, British citizenship for Commonwealth soldiers. One of the tasks of a lord-lieutenant is to be the Queen’s representative at citizenship ceremonies. On one occasion a soldier from the Rifles, who was from the Caribbean, came up. When I asked him what he did, he said very quietly, because we were in Northern Ireland and one is sensitive about that, “I’m in the Army”. I would like clarification on what the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, has just said. I understood him to say that they could not apply for citizenship while they were serving. In that case, how was this soldier, who was not a Gurkha, able to apply during that time?

Also, previous clauses of this Bill cited “due regard” by the authorities—not the Government but other statutory bodies—in housing, mental welfare and whatever. How is it that we do not appear to have due regard for Commonwealth soldiers, some of whom have done multiple tours in Iraq, Afghanistan and, indeed, Northern Ireland? I understand from earlier comments by the Minister that “due regard” in the whole Bill does not apply to central government, so the Government seem to have sidestepped this, in more ways than one.

We were talking about this a few minutes ago. Where is this moral responsibility of at least “due regard”? What is the process for a serving soldier from a Commonwealth country who is not a British citizen to apply for British citizenship? Do they have to go through the same hoop and process, with significant cost, as somebody who may be a doctor or nurse from the Philippines? These are people from all over the world, including China and Russia—I have carried out this ceremony for citizens of all sorts of countries. I would just like the Minister to explain where we are putting our soldiers. We do not seem to have the moral and caring attitude that, as a country, we should have to those who have served us so well.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, I support both these amendments in regard to those affected in Hong Kong, about whom the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, spoke most eloquently, and Gurkha soldiers who are Nepalese citizens. It is also worth putting in the widest possible context that we have a large component of the British Armed Forces from not only Nepal or Hong Kong, as already mentioned, but other Commonwealth countries. When I had the privilege of being Chief of the General Staff, the make-up of the British Army included people from 41 different nationalities. In fact, I had under my command more Fijian soldiers than Frank Bainimarama, the head of the Fijian Army, had in his own army. This is not a niche problem but a significant issue which we have to address, recognise and deal properly with.

We have to do so now in the context of the withdrawal from Afghanistan. In that melee of people coming back on the various flights during August were many members of the Afghan national army who, one way or another, have found their way back here. As part of Operation Warm Welcome, they will now be given significant residential rights in this country, over and above the foreign and Commonwealth soldiers who have stood shoulder to shoulder with us and fought in many campaigns. This is an anomaly and it is bizarre. We have to resolve it, so I put that issue back on the table. Earlier this afternoon, unintended consequences were mentioned in another context; this is an unintended consequence of a generous gesture to Afghans but, I am afraid, it makes a mockery of our policy with regard to foreign and Commonwealth individuals, including those from Nepal and Hong Kong.

[Baroness Smith of Newnham (LD)]

My Lords, I support both amendments. I added my name to Amendment 49; it was merely an omission not to have added my name to Amendment 63 since both amendments, as we have heard, are important. At Second Reading, I spoke about the situation with the Gurkhas; my only experience of them is visiting once while on the Armed Forces Parliamentary Scheme, so I have no interest to declare in the way that the noble Lord, Lord Lancaster, has.

However, like other noble Lords, I am deeply aware of the importance of the Gurkhas and the service they give. We need to think what signals we send if we say, “You can work with us; you can put your life on the line and die for us. But if you wish to have indefinite leave to remain, we will charge you huge sums of money, as if you were simply coming as a third-country national with no relationship to our country.” People who have been serving with us, such as the Gurkhas and Commonwealth citizens working within our Armed Forces, should be given the opportunity to have indefinite leave to remain on an at-cost basis, as we ourselves would when we sign up for a passport. We do not get our passports free but we pay the cost.

Earlier on, the Minister suggested that the MoD has certain duties, but this is not currently a duty. The MoD and the Home Office could do something relatively straightforward about this and make a huge difference in the message that we send to service personnel from Commonwealth countries.

Finally, I add a word in support of the comments of the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, about Hong Kong. This is partly because my noble friend Lord Alton of Liverpool was hoping to speak on this amendment in support of the service personnel from Hong Kong; he sat through the first group and most of our next debate but has had to leave for another meeting. It is very important that we think again about the commitments to Hong Kong. As the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, said, it is slightly an issue of history and timing that the withdrawal from Afghanistan has happened in the middle of the passage of the Bill, and it sends certain messages. However, that withdrawal and the situation in Hong Kong again mean that we have certain duties. It would behove the MoD and the Home Office to look generously also on service personnel from Hong Kong.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

My Lords, I thank your Lordships for their contributions on an issue that might look fairly contained but is, none the less, important. I will look first at Amendment 49, on fees for indefinite leave to remain, which was moved by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, and supported by the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Craig of Radley, the noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, and the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham. I make clear immediately that the Government highly value the service of all members of the Armed Forces, including Commonwealth nationals, and Gurkhas from Nepal, who have a long and distinguished history of service to the UK, both here and overseas.

Your Lordships will be aware that the Home Office, not the MoD, has a specific set of Immigration Rules for Armed Forces personnel and their dependants, the Appendix Armed Forces. Under these rules, non-UK service personnel enlisted in the regular Armed Forces, including Commonwealth citizens, and Gurkhas from Nepal, are granted an exemption from immigration status for the duration of their service to allow them to come and go without restriction. They are therefore free from any requirements to make visa applications or pay any fees while they serve, unlike almost every other category of migrant coming to work in the UK.

Non-UK service personnel who have served at least four years or been medically discharged as a result of their service can choose to settle in the UK after their service and pay the relevant fee. As my noble friend Lord Lancaster indicated, the time before discharge when such settlement applications can be submitted has been extended this year from 10 to 18 weeks. Those applying for themselves do not have to meet an income requirement, be sponsored by an employer or meet any requirements regarding their skills or knowledge of the English language or of life in the UK. That again puts them in a favourable position compared with other migrants wishing to settle here.

The noble Lord, Lord Dannatt, asked specifically about the situation of Afghan interpreters and sought to draw an analogy between them and the group that we are discussing under these amendments. ARAP and the ex-gratia scheme before it were set up in recognition of something very simple: the serious and immediate danger locally engaged staff would face, were they to remain in Afghanistan. The unique and perilous situation that this group of Afghans faced, because of their support for Her Majesty’s Government, required a bespoke solution to meet that immediate and extreme need.

I can tell the noble Viscount, Lord Brookeborough, that specific Immigration Rules are already in place for our non-UK service personnel and veterans, as I have outlined, to ensure that those who choose to can remain in the UK after service. Some choose to take up that offer, while others return to their original nation, but that personal choice is not overshadowed by risk of persecution or even death, such as would be faced by Afghan citizens if they returned to Afghanistan.

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

I hope the noble Baroness will forgive me for interrupting. I much appreciate her point, but my point was not in this instance to do with interpreters. I am very grateful for the work of the Ministry of Defence in enabling many of our interpreters to come to this country, and more is still to be done. I was referring to members of the Afghan National Army who have found their way back to this country through the evacuation flights. As soldiers of another nation, they are going to be accorded better rights of residence in this country than foreign and Commonwealth soldiers who have served as members of the British Armed Forces.

[Baroness Goldie (Con)]

I referred to locally employed citizens in Afghanistan. It may be that some members of the Afghan army felt at risk and that their lives were imperilled, and therefore sought to return to this country. We would bring them under the overall umbrella of help we felt it necessary to provide people who came here because they feared for their lives—and they were people with whom we had a relationship. So I suggest that there is not a complete analogy in the noble Lord’s description.

We recognise that settlement fees place a financial burden on non-UK serving personnel wishing to remain in the UK after their discharge, and the strength of feeling from parliamentarians, service charities and the public about this issue. As has already been indicated, the Ministry of Defence, together with the Home Office, ran a public consultation between 26 May and 7 July 2021 regarding a policy proposal to waive settlement fees for non-UK service personnel. The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked when we will get an outcome from that. I can say to him that 6,398 responses were received. These are having to be sifted through. The results are currently being considered and the Government will publish their response in due course. The Government are aware that there is a certain anticipation in the outside world to know their response.

Armed Forces Bill

Lord Dannatt Excerpts

2nd reading
Tuesday 7th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dannatt (CB)]

My Lords, it is now 10 years since the informal military covenant developed by the Army was converted into the Armed Forces covenant for the benefit of all three Armed Forces, and incorporated into the Armed Forces Act 2011. At the time, its incorporation was seen by some as something of a politically expedient device by the then Cameron Government because it lacked bite. I am therefore very pleased that this Armed Forces Bill provides many of the teeth that were missing, especially in the areas of housing, education and healthcare.

The well-being of our Armed Forces personnel once again came into sharp focus as we witnessed the extraordinary efforts of our service men and women in and around Kabul Airport last month. As Brigadier James Martin, commanding 16 Air Assault Brigade, said a few days ago, British soldiers cannot unsee the horrors of Kabul and will need help to recover from that deployment, which he described as “harrowing”. I would be grateful if the Minister would reassure the House that such help is being made available. I am considering an amendment to the Bill to ensure that such help is indeed forthcoming in full measure. I see this as an extension of the duty of care to our service- people—a topic debated and endorsed by your Lordships’ House earlier this year in the context of the overseas operations Bill but which was rejected by the government majority in the other place.

The non-combatant evacuation operation at Kabul raises other issues pertinent to the Bill. Given that one of the stated aims of the operation was to assist the evacuation of interpreters and other locally engaged Afghan civilians who had helped the British over the past 20 years, can the Minister provide any information about how many interpreters we have been able to bring to this country? My information is that we directly employed some 2,850 interpreters up until 2013 when the service was contractorised, but that only 440 interpreters benefited from the ex gratia scheme until the introduction of the Afghan relocation and assistance policy in April this year. My concern, which I believe is shared by many of the 45 senior retired officers who signed an open letter to the Government in July, is that many of the other 2,400 interpreters have not yet been brought to this country. Can the Minister provide an up-to-date figure on how many of those 2,400 interpreters were brought here between April and mid-August? Presumably all those disembarking from RAF evacuation flights were asked who they were and what they did to qualify.

I am sure that noble Lords will want to thank local councils around the country for making homes and education available to these Afghan people, and I also congratulate charities, such as Help for Heroes, which are agreeing to treat Afghans who stood shoulder to shoulder with us in the same way that they are supporting British veterans of recent conflicts. Among those who have recently arrived in this country are former members of the Afghan special forces. It has been suggested that some of them might wish to continue to serve in the British Armed Forces. I would welcome that, provided that normal nationality regulations are followed, or perhaps an exception should be made via another amendment to the Bill. Is this something that the Government are considering?

It was heartening to see the way in which the Government pragmatically put aside the rules regarding indefinite leave to remain to aid the resettlement of recently evacuated Afghans. This relaxation of the rules is part of Operation Warm Welcome, which will see individuals who worked for British forces and their families granted indefinite leave to remain in the UK. Unfortunately, this generous treatment is in stark contrast to how we currently treat our foreign and Commonwealth veterans. For them, many of whom will have served in Afghanistan, military service confers no such privilege. Indeed, when those individuals leave HM forces, they are treated the same as any other foreign applicant seeking indefinite leave to remain. Foreign and Commonwealth service personnel also miss out as they cannot apply to bring their families to the UK while serving unless they meet the income threshold, while under the new Afghan schemes the whole family can come notwithstanding income levels. We will therefore shortly face the bizarre situation where veterans of the Afghan National Army arriving here have greater residency rights than some veterans of the British Armed Forces. If we agree with the aspiration that the UK should be the best country in the world in which to be a veteran, we must ensure that we treat our veterans as well as we treat those to whom we give refuge. It is high time we extended the warm welcome to our foreign and Commonwealth veterans. Can the Minister update the House on the Government’s thinking in this regard?

While we are dwelling on anomalies, there are two other groups of veterans who are being disadvantaged. One is the dwindling ranks of servicemen who were excluded from the Armed Forces Pension Scheme 1975. Recently a petition signed by more than 30,000 people was handed to the Government requesting pension equity with those who benefited from the post-1975 scheme. It should be acknowledged that some of those discriminated against served in Northern Ireland, Aden and Borneo. Can the Minister update the House on progress to eradicate the pre/post-1975 pension inequality? Of course, the Northern Ireland veterans are eagerly awaiting the tabling of legislation to terminate the endless questioning of their operations during the Troubles. Are we any nearer to knowing when that legislation will be tabled?

Finally, it will not have escaped noble Lords’ notice that the other group of veterans currently being discriminated against—Gurkha veterans who retired from the British Army before 1997—have been on hunger strike outside Downing Street. This is shameful. Successive Governments inevitably carry some responsibility for the actions of their predecessors, and although many approved of the popular decision some 10 years ago to allow Gurkhas who had retired before 1997 to have residency rights in the UK, doing so without an uplift to their pension was shameful. A solution to this entirely predictable problem must be found before a Gurkha veteran dies on our streets. Does the Minister have an update on the resolution of this issue? The Armed Forces covenant is for all serving and veteran personnel, including minority groups whose voices often do not get heard.