Business of the House

Lord Cormack Excerpts

Wednesday 4th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Speaker (Lord Fowler)]

I inform the House that if Amendment 1 is agreed I cannot call any other amendments by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Cormack (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Naseby (Con)]

My Lords—

Motion

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[The Deputy Speaker (Baroness Garden of Frognal) (LD)]

My Lords, I should inform the House that if the amendment is agreed to, I cannot call any other amendments by reason of pre-emption.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, I have considerable sympathy with what my noble friend said about the precipitate action of the Liberal Chief Whip at the beginning of the previous debate, which never happened. I say very gently to my noble friend that speaking for 20 minutes or more does not encourage.

I speak here for one main reason. Of course, I am one of those who voted remain, but I have accepted, from the moment of the referendum, that we would come out of the European Union. All that I have been concerned about is how we come out and the terms on which we do so. I deeply resent the fact that certain colleagues—not all, by any means—suggest that we want to go back in. I wish we could, but we cannot. There has been a democratic decision. Only a general election or another referendum—and I do not favour another referendum; I never have—can alter that.

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[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I agree with much of what my noble friend has said about procedure. I think it would be a good thing for the Front Benches to agree and for the Bill being considered by the House of Commons to make its passage, and for the Opposition leader to agree—we hear different things at different time—to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to take his case to the voters on a timetable, preferably on my birthday: 16 October. I think we would win a great victory and it would be a great celebration as I reach the age of 65. There is an opportunity here, and I very much welcome the fact that he is asking the Leader of the Opposition to withdraw the guillotine Motion, which has nothing to do with the Bill that is coming here and nothing to do with whether the House of Commons decides to give the Prime Minister the opportunity to take his case to the country.

[Lord Cormack]

I am very glad to have the support of my noble friend and I look forward to being invited to his 65th birthday, when he will be 15 years my junior. His support is very welcome, because we do not always agree on everything.

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, I share the views of my young noble friend Lord Forsyth about what my noble friend said. His interesting speech covered a number of areas but did not cover one of the more outrageous elements, which is the use of the closure Motion. This, as noble Lords are aware, is designed to be used only in very rare circumstances, which is why the Lord Speaker or the Deputy Speaker always reminds the House that it is a very unusual procedure. It was used several times earlier this year and it seems to be being used as a routine tactic this evening, in a way it was never intended to be. My noble friend Lord True is quite right: it is the equivalent of saying “Shut up”, which is not the way we conduct our business. I would be interested to hear my noble friend’s views on how the way we conduct our business in this House is being harmed by the use of that procedure.

[Lord Cormack]

As my noble friend asked me to respond, let me say that any procedural device should be used sparingly. I have moved a closure myself, so I cannot pretend that I wholly disapprove of it, but I believe that filibustering does not do the House or the individuals indulging in it any good at all. Of course, it should be used, but the main purpose of my speech was to try to lower the temperature and bring a little sense to both sides of the House, so that we can conclude our proceedings today in a seemly manner and deal with the legislation that is likely to arrive, in an equally seemly and sensible manner.

[The Lord Bishop of Leeds]

My Lords, I strongly endorse what the noble Lord has said. It seems to me that we have to be realistic. I speak as a Lord spiritual with an obligation to engage in what was called “high politics” earlier, as a Member of this House, noting that the Lords spiritual cannot be whipped and that we are not a party. It seems to me that we have to be realistic and say that this prorogation has been disingenuously propagated as being just a little extension to recess, when we know that it is of a completely different order. We have prorogation on one side and these procedural objections about closure and guillotine over here. The reality is that we are going to carry on with the sort of spectacle we have had thus far unless the Front Benches come to some agreement and conclusion. It would be grown-up to do that. I do not suspect, from what I am hearing, that anyone in this Chamber wants to spend day and night going through these Motions to achieve very little other than irritation, so I add my endorsement to what the noble Lord has said and encourage the Front Benches to do as he requested.

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[Lord Ashton of Hyde]

The House of Commons—I beg noble Lords’ pardon. We think that a suitable time to meet may be when the House of Commons is clear on the decisions that it will make tonight. The House does not need to adjourn during pleasure for that to happen.

[Lord Cormack]

My Lords, there does not seem a lot of point, particularly in view of the extremely helpful and constructive remarks from my noble friend Lord True, in continuing on this particular path. Surely other business on the Order Paper could be dealt with. I personally think that an adjournment during pleasure is by far the most sensible solution.

[Lord Reid of Cardowan]

My Lords, may I seek clarification from what was at least a partially constructive description of what might develop? I agree with everyone else that the noble Lords, Lord True, Lord Cormack and Lord Strathclyde, as well as other noble Lords, have displayed the spirit of the House. The Chief Whip referred to pending events in the House of Commons tonight. I can see that it is absolutely essential that we know what is happening with the Bill that will come here, but was he including in his embrace—in that precondition—what might happen as regards, say, a general election? If so, what is that to do with the conduct of this House or that Bill?

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[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I thank the noble Lord for those comments. There is very little that is normal at the moment. I do not want to put a guillotine Motion before this House; I was trying to help the House. It is not normal to have so many amendments; it is not normal to have such a Prorogation. We are trying to make the best of a difficult situation and see our way through it.

[Lord Cormack]

May I express the hope, having introduced this earlier, that my noble friend will indeed accept that these are exceptional times? Prorogation has never been like this for 90 years—and not even then. We want an orderly end that allows this House to preserve its image and reputation and not to shred them by talking through until one minute past 10 on Friday.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I suggest that we continue with the Bill in the normal way at this stage and, following the discussions that we have, I will be happy to report back to the House on how those discussions have proceeded.

Amendment to the Motion (2B)

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[Lord Framlingham]

The noble Baroness can put her spin on it. I retain my views—

[Lord Cormack]

Does my noble friend really think he is assisting to enhance the reputation of this House by trashing the reputation of someone who has given decades of service to our country and our party?

[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, I think it is time for a little honesty. I have watched over the last three years—day in, day out—people pretending to do one thing and doing another, while the 17.4 million people who voted to leave Europe have been very badly served. I am not prepared to put up with it any longer.

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[Lord True]

The noble Lord can put his interpretation on it as he wishes; the Division lists will demonstrate who is closer to the truth. There will be a balance of opinion on the Cross Benches. I find it entirely extraordinary that the Labour Party and the Liberal Democrats, having forced through legislation in the House of Commons for perfectly good reasons of their own, now wish, before the Bill had even been presented—it has now been presented, we saw it arrive—to force a guillotine on this House. It is, again, the Liberal Democrats and the Labour Party, with some noble Lords in other parties; the bulk of the votes are there. Our proceedings are being broadcast, if anybody is watching. Those sitting opposite are on the Labour Benches; next to them are the Lib Dem Benches.

[Lord Cormack]

Can my noble friend not accept that there are a considerable number of his colleagues in this House who have given long and devoted service to the Conservative Party and who believe that the Conservative Government are on the wrong track?

[Lord True]

I think I have grasped that point on one or two occasions before from my noble friend. I do not deny that other people share that view, but the reality is that a power play is going on here, with the use of an instrument to control Parliament, to control this House, which has never been seen in this House before—the guillotine.

I am honoured to be a member of your Lordships’ Constitution Committee, which is one of the most important committees of the House—thank goodness that your Lordships’ House has such a committee. That committee is currently considering some of the issues that arise from fixed-term parliament legislation, and I hope that when its report is issued, it will be helpful to all of us in this House. But today, we are seeing constitutional issues on the make in front of us. We have an unprecedented, far-reaching Motion proposed which would, if it became part of the practice of this House, as it has become part of the practice of the other House, change the nature of parliamentary government in this country. That is absolutely the case.

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[Lord Framlingham]

My Lords, my noble friend Lord True has asked me to deal with this amendment and I am pleased to do so. It basically relates to the role of the guillotine in our proceedings and the advisability if we had time, which I fear we do not, of referring it to the Procedure Committee.

It is sometimes forgotten that historically the Opposition’s main weapon against the Government or bad legislation has always been time—time to look at things in detail, but also simply time. When I first became a Member of the House of Commons there was no such thing as a guillotine. The subject before you was treated with respect. Sometimes things took a long time and sometimes they did not, but you were very conscious that, particularly on complex, difficult problems, you had enough time. You would not do the wrong thing because you did not have enough time. That was absolutely crucial.

Then, of course, along one day came the guillotine. It was very rare in those days, but then it became the programme Motion, so it went from being used very rarely to being used occasionally and then becoming, as it is now, entirely routine. The trouble is that, when a Bill in the other place is sent to Committee, the programme Motion decides how much time will be spent on different aspects of the Bill. That is, at very best, a good guess. It is frequently wrong, with the result that too much time—far too much time sometimes—is spent on some sections of the Bill and other sections do not get dealt with at all.

Sometimes, given the increased volume of legislation coming from the other place to your Lordships’ House, this has created great problems. Lots of undigested legislation comes down to us almost like a sausage factory and we have to deal with it and make sure that it is right. To do that we have to have the time that it no longer has. It will be absolutely crackers if we use guillotines as it uses guillotines and give up our right to do the job that it should have done. The public whom we serve will not be well served by that. If we pursue this course, lots of Bills will not be dealt with as efficiently as they are now. To introduce the guillotine to your Lordships’ House just for one specific thing is outrageous, and the thin end of the wedge. Once it is done, once the Rubicon has been crossed, it is much easier to do it again. We should think very carefully before setting this terrible precedent. It smacks of a heavy-handed, authoritarian approach to matters, which, if it were ever translated into government, would have frightening consequences for the people of this country.

[Lord Cormack]

Has it not just had frightening consequences?

[Lord Framlingham]

I do not know how to respond to that. I know my noble friend’s position on this matter. He has stated it time and again. He is not going to change, so I do not think it is worth engaging with him in this way—