European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere and the European Space Agency (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2023

Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord McNally

Tuesday 6th February 2024 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, that apology was delivered with the sincerity and clarity which one has come to expect from the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, in dealing with this place. In some ways, I feel rather guilty. I put my name down for this debate because I am interested in the space industry, but I feel a little bit guilty that a Minister who is usually working for us in some of the tightest spots in the world is delivering an apology for a drafting cock-up from some five or six years ago. However, it gives me great pleasure to work together on this with the noble Lord, Lord Ahmad, again. Over 10 years ago, we were together in the coalition Government. Since then, as I said, his contribution, particularly in our foreign affairs in some of the most difficult and dangerous positions for a Minister, has done great credit to this House.

The instrument corrects an error. It will bring the provision of UK domestic law in line with the headquarters agreement. Most of all, as the Explanatory Memorandum says:

“It is important that the European Space Agency … has a solid presence within the United Kingdom with an identity that is aligned with the strengths of the United Kingdom space sector”.


That is really why I wanted to speak. I thought that whoever replied could reaffirm this Government’s commitment to a space programme. There are not many times that I stand to speak in praise of Boris Johnson, but as Prime Minister he certainly gave real leadership to the space programme and real encouragement to the departments working on it. I hope that, in welcoming this order, and playing host to and participating in these organisations, we are reaffirming our commitment to space exploration.

I grew up in the 1950s, reading that famous comic, the Eagle. I draw noble Lords attention to that because the adventures of Dan Dare, who was the great spaceman in that comic, were set in 1985. In the 1950s, it was assumed that we would be flying to Venus and that we would have settlements on the moon and all kinds of things. Yet it is now 50 years since a man walked on the moon. The need to recommit ourselves to space is very important.

The European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere has an establishment in Chile, which is home to the very large telescope, known to its friends as the VLT, and the extremely large telescope, known as the ELT. It is quite simply unparalleled in terrestrial astronomy and totally deserving of our participation. I saw a television documentary on it; it is amazing what they are doing there.

I suppose the first thing we have to convince the Government of is that the European Space Agency is not an EU body, so we are not frightening the horses in this case. It is a major player in space, and it is vital that we continue with its work as part of a national policy to support the future growth and viability of the sector. The UK is the largest destination for space investment after the USA, and it is projected to take up some 10% of the global space market—a market already valued at £400 billion in 2022. Space technology already underpins key functions in communications, navigation, climate and weather forecasting, as well as in financial transactions and services.

As I said, it is 50 years since a man last walked on the moon, but the real exploration of space is only just beginning. The agencies cited in this order will be essential in ensuring that we receive all the benefits of the new space age.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for his contribution and his apology, which I too think was well meant. We fully understand the reasons for it. I normally congratulate the Minister on his longevity in post. Of course, this is only the second time he has addressed this statutory instrument; I have had the fortune to address it three times. It is quite a horrendous story that an important protection that we are required to give under international conventions has been so difficult to implement. I ran into the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, last night; she introduced the original SI, and when she responded the first time it was presented she said that the road had been a difficult one, full of potholes and a lot of stumbling. I think that is true.

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said:

“Although that 2018 version was made … it still did not implement all the immunities correctly … the treaty has not been ratified. FCDO told us that the error was identified in mid-2018 but its correction was delayed by the requirement to prioritise other legislation for Brexit, COVID-19, and then sanctions connected with the conflict in the Ukraine. Although FCDO says that there has been no actual detriment to the seven individuals involved, this unfortunate series of events casts doubt on FCDO’s competence in drafting effective legislation.”


I hear what the Minister said about double-checking that, but we need a very clear response from him about the impact this may have. As the Explanatory Memorandum says, the siting of this headquarters and bringing it into the UK has a positive economic effect. It is something that we should be encouraging more of, so when we make this sort of mistake it has an impact, as the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee specified, and we need to address it.

The Explanatory Memorandum says that the presence at Harwell

“is attracting businesses and research organisations to locate near to the cluster to enable them to easily access facilities, services and funding that the cluster offers”.

That is a good thing, and it really is a shame that we have not been able to properly implement those protections for the leadership of that cluster. What is the estimated economic benefit of this facility? How much have we been able to attract in locally to benefit that community?

The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee received assurances from the department that there has been no detriment to the individuals. I find that difficult to understand, but anyway, that is what it says. However, the Explanatory Note says:

“An Impact Assessment has not been prepared for this Order as no, or no significant, impact is foreseen on the private, voluntary or public sectors in the United Kingdom”.


Here we have an organisation whose leadership has been impacted by this. Have they suffered a detriment? The Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee said there has been no detriment, but we need to have an assurance that some form of assessment was conducted about the potential impacts on the individuals, the organisation and, as the committee said, on our reputation of being able to facilitate these sorts of arrangements under international conventions.

Obviously, I read the debate on the SI in the other place. My honourable friend Stephen Doughty made it clear that we welcome this statutory instrument, its provisions and the facility in Harwell, so I do not want to pour scorn on this. It is a positive move and a good thing. The Minister said that the Government are taking action to ensure this does not happen again, but there must be some sort of reputational damage to us, particularly if we are to try to be a centre and to bring other international organisations into the United Kingdom. I apologise for being a little bit negative about this, but I accept that the Minister has given an apology and that we are putting something right. That is the most important thing.

European Organization for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere (Immunities and Privileges) (Amendment) Order 2018

Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord McNally

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord McNally]

My Lords, I address the orders, which I welcome and see as perfectly sensible for international organisations. I have two particular points. Yesterday, we debated in the House how Parliament will deal with the tsunami of SIs that are coming our way as a result of Brexit. As the Minister has just done in his conclusion, I draw attention to the fact that these orders contain three apologies for errors in previous orders and two corrections. This is a fairly simple, straightforward endorsement of the workings of multinational organisations in our country and abroad. There were five mistakes in one SI. With the best intentions in the world, we have to look at the real problems we will have in dealing with statutory instruments and the need for accuracy and effectiveness.

I can see a little scepticism in the room about me talking about the space industry. That is one of the great things about being in the House of Lords. I served as one of the main spokespeople for the party on the Space Industry Bill. We greatly enjoyed taking it through, but I immediately started getting letters that began with, “As an expert on the space industry”. I am not an expert but I should declare that my son, James, is a space engineer working in Munich for a Franco-German company.

My views are all my own and they impinge on the way in which the Minister introduced these orders, with reference to the space industry. I agree with the Minister that the prospects of the space industry are among the most exciting that face us. I am very proud that, under the coalition Government, the noble Lord, Lord Willetts, and Vince Cable did a lot to reinvigorate the space industry. I am reading Ken Clarke’s memoirs at the moment. He talks about the 1980s, when he was in the DTI, and how he and most of his colleagues had little interest in the space industry as a growth industry for the future.

Now, it is the exact opposite. There is tremendous excitement and a great deal of potential there. The Government have done a lot of good things since 2015 to carry the industry forward. I understand that the legislation covering the European space industry and other international commitments relating to space has nothing to do with our membership of the European Union. As I said, my son works in a Franco-German company; he works with Poles, Italians, Germans and the French as well as Brits. It stretches credulity not to imagine that an organisation such as that, which depends so much on international co-operation, will find it more difficult outside the EU to partner.

Space ports are a good example. When Europe looks for its space port, I wonder whether the Scottish, Welsh or Cornish bidder will have a better chance than the Portuguese when Europe makes its decision. It is the same with Galileo: we have already seen the removal of one of the Galileo preparatory units from Portsmouth back to mainland Europe. We have to face the fact that what is a very exciting industry will have some question marks over it, because of the decision on our membership of the EU. I once saw a very interesting documentary about what is going on down in Chile—although the ESO headquarters are in Munich, not where my son works, its main work is of course down in Chile. The documentary showed that it is exciting and right at the cutting edge of space exploration.

My only words to cloud this optimism is that I remember very clearly where I was 50 years ago, when man landed on the moon. Those of us who were alive then could not imagine that, 50 years later, we would have made so little progress in space exploration. On the other hand, my father, who was born in 1899, used to talk about how, as a boy growing up in Liverpool, he remembered seeing the first aeroplanes flying and what happened to flight in the 20th century. What I learned from the Space Industry Bill is that the space industry is probably where they were in the early 20th century and that it could make similar amazing progress. Along with that, the progress regarding satellite technology, deep space probes, the mining of asteroids and so on are on the agenda of our scientists and could make a massive difference to the century ahead.

I support the passage of the regulations, but I just give those two gypsy warnings about the difficulty of dealing with the SI tsunami that we face and the problems of making our space industry viable outside EU partnerships. Again, some of us are old enough to remember Blue Streak and other adventures into space and that going it alone did not work.

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I know it is late in the day, so I will try not to bang on too much. I must admit, I did not expect to be making this speech again; as one of my brothers in the trade union movement used to say, it is déjà vu all over again. I do not know whether the Minister has had the opportunity to read the Lords Hansard from the last time we had this order but, if he has not, I will remind him of some of the contributions that I made. One mistake I made the last time we debated this order is that I managed to speak without saying the words, “the European Organisation for Astronomical Research in the Southern Hemisphere”. I realised this because, when I was searching for my last contribution using the Hansard search facility, it did not bring up my contribution, as I had managed to not say those words. So, for the record, I have said them now, so that just in case we have to return to this subject again, I know I will be able to find it.

I appreciate the contribution made by the noble Lord, Lord McNally, and I share his sentiments completely, and those of the Minister, about the importance of this. It is, strictly speaking, a sort of HR issue. This is about how we are going to treat employees of this organisation in accordance with an international treaty. I do not object to that—it is quite proper and should be done.

The concern I have is that this relates to a convention from 1962, according to the noble Baroness, Lady Goldie. We may be talking about other issues, but the protocol that we agreed to in the 2009 order—which took effect in 2012—and which we were talking about last March, was discovered to be defective in June 2014. There was a considerable period of time when this error went unnoticed but we now have to return to the subject. Last time we discussed it there were 40 employees: 38 in Chile and two in Germany. What is the score now? How many people are we talking about? What has been the impact of this error? Have people suffered a detriment? What is the cost to those individuals? If there has been a cost or a detriment to these individuals, what is the Foreign Office doing to address that? Will there be some form of retrospection?

When the Minister, Sir Alan Duncan, wrote to me, he acknowledged the parliamentary time that had been taken up and he regretted that it had been wasted. I accept that errors and mistakes happen, but this order has had a rather unfortunate journey, and I think we need an explanation. We need an assurance that things will be put right, and that the error has not resulted in people suffering a detriment. It may be that over this period of time, people have gone into and out of employment, which may complicate matters even more. I do not want to put too many onerous questions to the Minister. We have had a busy day already and are at the final hurdle but I hope that he will be able to answer me. The noble Baroness, Lady Goldie, was unable to answer me last time but I am hoping that the Minister will be able to on this occasion.

Update on Proposed Fox-Sky Merger Process

Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord McNally

Tuesday 12th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement that the Secretary of State is minded to refer the bid to the CMA on broadcasting standards grounds as well as those of media plurality. In its first report, Ofcom said there were no broadcasting standards concerned that may justify a reference. It has now admitted that there are “non-fanciful” concerns. On that basis, the Secretary of State had to refer the bid, she has done so, and we on these Benches certainly welcome that.

The Murdochs have a long history of regulatory non-compliance and corporate governance failure, at both 21st Century Fox and News Corporation. Just last week, News Group settled in 17 cases relating to allegations of criminality at the Sun, ensuring that James Murdoch will not have to appear in court later this year.

The Secretary of State has done her job and now, as the noble and learned Lord, Lord Keen, said, the CMA must do its job. However, we need to be assured that it will be a comprehensive look at the corporate governance issues. The Secretary of State has said—and the noble and learned Lord repeated this—that the issue is a matter of evidence. One way to gather that properly, and to inform the CMA, would be to commence the second part of the Leveson inquiry. I hope the noble and learned Lord will be able to reassure the House on that matter.

When previous Statements have been made to the House on this issue, I have sought reassurance from the noble and learned Lord in relation to data. How data are mined, used and abused in terms of media plurality is particularly an issue in relation to Fox News. I would be grateful if the noble and learned Lord could repeat what he said to us before—that the issues of,

“data-scraping or data accumulation … are matters that the Competition and Markets Authority will take into account in arriving at any decision”.—[Official Report, 20/7/17; col. 1749.]

I hope the noble and learned Lord can reassure us on that.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Collins, I welcome this Statement and I am grateful to the Minister and the Secretary of State for the thorough way that she has kept those of us interested briefed as she has come to these decisions. I also welcome the revised advice from Ofcom. I was part of the committee that created Ofcom and have always been proud of the way it has developed as a regulator. I have to say that its first advice on these matters came close to being equivalent to what the Premiership seems to think of as fit and proper to run a football club. The revised advice gives some credibility back to Ofcom in these matters, and it should be grateful to the Secretary of State.

I am a little worried about the sudden appearance of the term, “non-fanciful”. I am not sure that the Minister, with his long and distinguished legal career, would be able to tell me how “non-fanciful” is weighed in matters of judgment. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, asked, would worries about data mining and abuse of data be dismissed as “fanciful”? When we bandy terms such as non-fanciful about, we should remember that most of the accusations made about News International in the past 10 years were initially dismissed as fanciful—as being made up by enemies of the Murdochs—but then turned out to be true. I am not so sure that “fanciful” and “non-fanciful” should be used in the work ahead.

In taking its decisions, the review should look at the threat to the UK media industry. Our media in all their aspects are among the least protected of national media from predatory attack. As the value of the pound falls, there is good reason for being careful about the message that we send out about our determination to defend the integrity of our media.

I associate myself also with the call made by the noble Lord, Lord Collins, for the second part of Leveson to go ahead.

As a Fox subscriber, I was interested to learn that Sky thought that Fox News was so little to the taste of the British viewer that it has taken it off its platform, whereas it has left on it the Iranian and Russian news channels.

Sky and 21st Century Fox: Proposed Merger

Debate between Lord Collins of Highbury and Lord McNally

Thursday 29th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Collins of Highbury (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement made by the Secretary of State.

Media plurality is a key finding and irrespective of any final decision of the Secretary of State, the Labour Party over the next 12 months will review media ownership rules in the United Kingdom. However, I warn the Minister that the problem with Murdoch’s undertakings in lieu, even strengthened ones during this process, is that they will became as meaningless as those he has given in the past. Just look at what happened to the guarantees of editorial independence for the Times and the Sunday Times.

If the current rules mean that James Murdoch can pass a fit and proper test, given everything we know about his and his companies’ behaviour over phone hacking and about Fox’s behaviour over the ongoing sexual harassment scandal in the United States, that says much more about the rules than it does about Mr Murdoch. It is clear that the rules need to be reviewed. Even if this Government will not do it, the next Labour Government will.

It has been reported that a spokesperson from Fox has said that the company is “confident” the merger will be approved based on,

“an objective assessment of the facts”.

But does the Minister not recognise that without Leveson 2 we still do not know the facts, and therefore in order to have a proper objective assessment this merger should not be approved without the findings of the second part of the inquiry?

Added to this, later this year another civil case will be heard against News Group relating to phone hacking, for which the judge has requested thousands of invoices for private investigators linked to the Sun, and James Murdoch’s own laptop. Given that phone hacking is very far from resolved, James Murdoch’s own conduct before and after the scandal broke is not clear, and neither is the reason why millions of emails were deleted by the company, how can we possibly allow this takeover to go ahead while this is hanging over them?

Finally, as regards influence on the political process, I would like to ask the Minister a specific question: what provisions does he believe exist in either the Data Protection Act or within the powers of Ofcom under the Communications Act 2003 to prevent the owner of what is at present Sky Broadcasting misusing the data it holds concerning the lives and preferences of 11 million British and Irish households in a manner that furthers its influence over the political process in either the United Kingdom or the Republic of Ireland? If no such protections are available, what assurances would the Secretary of State seek in this regard? The days when citizens of other countries can dominate our media markets while paying their taxes overseas have to end.

[Lord McNally (LD)]

My Lords, one of the advantages of this place is that there is a certain continuity. I have been speaking on, and dealing with, media matters for the last 20 years. I recall that at some point in the mid-1990s the then Press Complaints Commission brought in another charter on good behaviour. I remember talking to a very senior Times executive and asking, “What about this new charter? If you checked a story against the responsibilities under the charter and decided that it would be wrong to publish that story but the next day the Daily Mail led on it, what would happen?”. He said, “That’s easy. Rupert would fire me”. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Collins: one has to read the book as well as look into the crystal ball in these matters, and the ability of the Murdochs to give assurances and then ignore them is well documented.

One thing that sticks in my mind is Mr Murdoch’s appearance before the Select Committee, at which he said that it was the “most humble” day of his life—a curious choice of words—yet now, a few years later, he and most of the gang who were accused of the most heinous crimes are back in place and moving forward. The reality is that the Murdochs are an ever-incoming tide. I appreciate that the Secretary of State needs to follow a quasi-judicial role and, my goodness, she is going to need the advice of the Minister at the Bench as she now tiptoes through that minefield, because the Murdochs always have some very expensive lawyers at hand. However, I hope she does not get involved in a game of poker in which it is said, “We’ll give you these assurances”, to which the answer is, “No, they won’t do”, and that is followed by, “Well, what about these assurances?”. Let us stick with this referral.

I look forward to reading the Ofcom justification of the “fit and proper” finding. One can assume only that the narrow legal determination of “fit and proper” in the present legislation is far too low, and I hope the Government will now look at the whole question of whether we need to strengthen plurality, public interest and the fit and proper person test in the existing legislation.

I join the noble Lord, Lord Collins, in saying that Leveson 2 is now essential. The Government put it in their manifesto, despite the previous Conservative Government having committed to dropping Section 40. The electorate said no. We should now proceed with Leveson 2 with all speed. There is also now a need to look at the powers of Google and the internet providers.

Finally, I am a little worried about the deadline of 14 July. That is only six days before both Houses rise for the summer. There is an old habit of various decisions being rushed out on the last day before a Summer Recess. Can we be assured that any decisions on this matter will be taken only when Parliament is in session?