Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill
Lord Coaker Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
Will the Home Secretary clarify that point? My right hon. Friend the Member for Morley and Outwood (Ed Balls) quite rightly raised the issue of political advisers for police and crime commissioners, but the Policing and Criminal Justice Minister says that the posts will be politically restricted. Although “politically restricted” means not being active politically, it does not mean that these political advisers cannot be a member of a political party. Will the Home Secretary therefore confirm that political advisers to police and crime commissioners can be members of a political party?
Vernon Coaker
I apologise to the Home Secretary for intervening again, but this is an extremely important point. When the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice explained the meaning of the term “politically restricted,” he said:
“You may not, for instance, be a member of a political party.”
It is not correct to say that someone cannot be a member of a political party when they are in a politically restricted post. Will the Home Secretary confirm that?
Mrs May
I am happy to confirm—this is at the heart of the matter, and I know that Opposition Front Benchers have been trying make something of the issue—that we are very clear that police and crime commissioners should not be able to appoint political advisers from public funds. I do not believe that that would be right. That is the intention behind what we are doing and this Bill.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
We have had an interesting and wide-ranging debate to which many Members on both sides of the House have contributed. At the heart of the Bill is disagreement about whether the reforms will lead to politicisation. Government Members may assert that they will not, but there is real worry among not just Members of Parliament but many outside organisations.
The hon. Members for Gosport (Caroline Dinenage), for Blackpool North and Cleveleys (Paul Maynard), for Stroud (Neil Carmichael) and for Amber Valley (Nigel Mills), as well as my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East (Keith Vaz), discussed the measures to deal with alcohol. Many of us welcome those measures. Let me say to the Home Secretary and her Ministers that I consider it important to enforce not only the new laws in the Bill, but the existing laws.
Some of the problems relating to alcohol, and in particular to binge drinking, are cultural. There is not just one homogeneous problem; there is the problem of binge drinking, the problem of the purchase of alcohol on estates by under-age drinkers and the problem of alcoholism, which usually involves older drinkers. We need to understand that there are three separate problems, each of which requires a separate solution.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East also mentioned the measures relating to drugs, which I welcome. Obviously, we will have to consider their practical implications in Committee, but this is certainly a sensible and realistic attempt to deal with what we all recognise to be a real problem.
Although we are in favour of universal jurisdiction, I repeat to my right hon. Friends the Members for Manchester, Gorton (Sir Gerald Kaufman) and for Cynon Valley (Ann Clwyd) something that my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary said: we will look at its implications in Committee.
My hon. Friends the Members for Birmingham, Selly Oak (Steve McCabe) and for Kingston upon Hull East (Karl Turner) talked about the issue of commissioners, which is at the heart of the Bill. We all accept that accountability is important and necessary, but the question is: what is the right way of ensuring that the police are held accountable? The Bill proposes that the right way is through a single individual on a force-wide basis. My two hon. Friends and my right hon. Friend the shadow Home Secretary pointed out some of the difficulties in that, as I will too.
My right hon. Friend the Member for Salford and Eccles (Hazel Blears) pointed out that the Bill’s proposal for a single individual accountable at force-wide level does not address the real accountability issues, which, as most Members will know, are at neighbourhood, street and ward level. People come to me about drugs problems in the pub car park or a gang of youths at the end of the street; they do not come to me about the force’s counter-terrorism policy, or come to me and say the force does not have the right strategic approach to serious and organised crime. I agree with my right hon. Friend that the accountability gap people often feel and the confidence that is then sometimes under threat are at a neighbourhood and street level, and I do not see how a single force commissioner can deal with that.
Several hon. Members
Vernon Coaker
I will not give way at present, as I want to make a point about an issue the hon. Member for Eastbourne (Stephen Lloyd) raised. He talked about the need to tackle antisocial behaviour, and we all agree with that. People ask why the crime statistics are sometimes not believed. As Bill Bratton said to the Select Committee on Home Affairs, unless antisocial behaviour—some of the minor crimes which are nevertheless real issues—is dealt with, people sometimes do not believe the broader crime statistics. That highlights the importance of having somebody at the local or neighbourhood level who—
Vernon Coaker
Let me finish this point. That highlights the importance of having somebody at the local or neighbourhood level who is accountable for dealing with such matters. That is the really important level of accountability.
Vernon Coaker
I am going to take one intervention. As some of the Members on their feet have already been granted interventions, I will give way to the hon. Member for Hendon (Mr Offord).
Mr Offord
A central tenet of the Local Government Act 2000 was the introduction of greater accountability and transparency in the decision-making process and the introduction of directly elected mayors, so why does the hon. Gentleman not support the same rationale in this Bill?
Vernon Coaker
Because I did not think they were a very good idea then. The hon. Gentleman has to deal with this: the accountability his party seeks to put in place through this Bill is at a force-wide level, and I am saying it is the wrong level of accountability.
Vernon Coaker
I cannot give way as I have to finish in four or five minutes. Those Members wishing to intervene can argue this point in more detail in Committee, as they do not have to be Committee members to do so.
The Bill makes a number of proposals on issues such as drugs, alcohol and protests around Parliament, but at its core is police reform and the proposal for elected police commissioners and police and crime panels. At the same time as we have massive cuts to policing that will mean thousands fewer police in every single area of the country, the Government are subjecting police to an unwanted organisational upheaval. Of course, not only are police officers under threat but police staff in the back office and police community support officers will go.
Vernon Coaker
I cannot. I would normally, but I have not got time. I apologise to the hon. Gentleman.
As we have seen from the police grant reports today, every single police force will be under huge financial pressure, yet the Government want to spend more than £100 million on these commissioners, equivalent to the cost of 600 full-time officers. This organisational change will happen in May 2012, just before the Olympics, and in 2012-13, the year of the biggest cuts.
Who wants this? The Minister must tell us who is demanding these so-called reforms. We have seen in The Guardian today that the APA is completely opposed to the reforms—the letter is from Conservative, Independent, Labour and Liberal Democrat members. Liberty is opposed to them, so are the LGA and the police. We have a so-called listening Government who are, frankly, telling people that they know best.
The Minister has failed to answer the questions. If the commissioner is elected based on a particular proposal, who will decide? The elected commissioner or the chief constable? If I am an elected commissioner and I promise that every police officer will be visible and on the street, but the chief constable says, “No, I want some for domestic violence, for cross-border organised crime, for tackling economic fraud and for child protection,” who will decide? As my right hon. Friend the Member for Leicester East said, the Government have a duty to be clearer about where that dividing line will occur and about what operational independence and operational responsibility mean. We have no clarity about that in the Bill.
Vernon Coaker
I cannot; I have not got time.
I have dealt with subject of the wrong level of accountability, and it is also unclear how police and crime panels are to work. Are they to hold commissioners to account or to work with them to deliver what they want? They have a power of veto in only two areas—namely the precept, or budget, and the appointment of the chief constables—but they must have a three-quarters majority for that veto to be effective. That is a greater majority than the Government have passed for the Dissolution of Parliament. A three-quarters majority would mean that virtually every person on the police and crime panel would have to agree for that veto to happen.
In conclusion, the political independence of the police is as important in a democracy as the independence of the courts. Political views and opinions may ebb and flow, but the police remain. That allows every individual, whatever their race, religion or politics, to feel protected. A single person who is politically motivated elected to oversee the police will make it increasingly difficult to ensure that this political independence is maintained. For that reason, above all, the Government must think again.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Coaker Excerpts(13 years, 11 months ago)
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Nick Herbert
I should say to my hon. Friend that these are operational matters for police forces, but we strongly support those who have taken what we regard as a sensible decision. The Met Police Commissioner and the Mayor have been clear that the move towards single patrolling has been hugely helpful in increasing police visibility, and that can be extended to other police forces.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
The Sunday before last, on “The World This Weekend”, the Minister for Policing and Criminal Justice told the nation that there was no link between police numbers and the level of crime—a quite astonishing claim. He also argued in recent weeks that it is not officer numbers that are key to cutting crime but individual directly elected police commissioners who will make the difference. As The Daily Telegraph reported, the Minister told a private meeting of police authority chairs on 9 November that, to make that happen,
“the first thing a directly elected individual will do is to appoint a political adviser.”
Will he confirm that he made those remarks, and does he stand by what he told The Guardian last week—that the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Bill will enshrine in legislation that these advisers
“may not…be a member of a political party”?
Nick Herbert
First, I did not say that there was no link; I said that there was no simple link. Let me tell the hon. Gentleman something:
“I don’t think it’s possible to make a direct correlation between police numbers and crime reduction.”
Those are not my words; they were the words of the right hon. Member for Exeter (Mr Bradshaw) when he appeared on “Any Questions” in September.
In response to the hon. Gentleman’s specific question, he and his right hon. Friend should have taken care to read the Bill and the consultation document before making the allegation that police and crime commissioners will be able to appoint political advisers. We are determined that they should not be able to do so and have legislated for that. It is in the Bill that they may not appoint political advisers.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Coaker Excerpts(14 years ago)
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Nick Herbert
I was talking about that this morning to senior police officers responsible for criminal justice policy. Our concern is to ensure that rising rates of reoffending are reversed. That means ensuring that sentences are effective, and that we focus on the rehabilitation that is necessary to ensure that prisons fulfil their purpose and criminals go straight.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
It is interesting that the Home Secretary chose not to answer the question on the spending review and the impact on police numbers, but we have heard from both the Home Secretary and the policing Minister that thousands of police jobs are to be lost. The idea that that will not impact on front-line policing is one for the fairies. Can the Minister explain why the 20% cut announced in direct Government funding for police forces is front-loaded? In other words, of that 20%, why are the deepest, most far-reaching cuts in the first two years—next year 6%, in 2012-13 8%, then 4% and 4%? Why is the deepest, most far-reaching cut, 8%, in the year when the country is facing one of it greatest security challenges, the Olympics?
Nick Herbert
I welcome the hon. Gentleman to his position.
Olympic security funding is being prioritised in Home Office budgets, and counter-terrorist policing was subject to a much lower cut than the 20% cut for policing. We intend to ensure that priority continues to be given to counter-terrorist policing. We believe that significant savings can be made. Her Majesty’s inspectorate of constabulary found that only 11% of force strength, on average, was visible and available at any one time, because officers are spending too much time tied up in the red tape that the hon. Gentleman created when he was a Minister.
Oral Answers to Questions
Lord Coaker Excerpts(14 years, 4 months ago)
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The Minister for Immigration (Damian Green)
My hon. Friend makes an important point. The issue of foreign national prisoners bedevilled the previous Administration for years and led to the resignation of a Home Secretary. In 2008—the last year for which we have full figures—the UK Border Agency removed or deported nearly 5,400 foreign national prisoners. There is always more to be done. There are cases in which the court rules in an individual’s favour on specific human rights grounds and the Home Office disagrees with the court’s decision, but we all have to respect the court’s decision, so we are continuing to look at the administrative improvements needed to avoid administrative obstacles to the removal of foreign national prisoners at the end of their sentence, and to look at the legal problems.
Vernon Coaker (Gedling) (Lab)
T7. What will the Home Secretary do if one of the new directly elected police commissioners is an extremist? What will happen?
Mrs May
I believe that introducing that important element of democratic accountability for police forces and not getting involved in operational matters, which will remain with the operational independence of police chiefs, is important. The hon. Gentleman’s question implies something with which I disagree. It implies that he is not willing to trust the British people and the common sense of the British people to elect people who will do a good job in their area.