Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Clark of Windermere Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

There is also Berwick. Of course, the noble Lord is right about that, but the people who are responsible for this act of vandalism—because that is what it is—would want to have a station there because they want to have a border there. That is the point that I want to make.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, made the kind of speech that we expected from him—a very careful, legalistic speech that points out, quite correctly, that what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is proposing is not really relevant to what we are all talking about. I hope that he will not press the amendment to a vote, because I would find it very difficult to vote against this measure, for the reasons that the noble and learned Lord gave. I would find it difficult to vote in favour of his regret amendment, but I absolutely agree with him in his analysis of what needs to happen and on the levers that are available to Ministers to prevent it happening.

One point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, made that I thought was very interesting is about who will bear the costs of this, if it happens. I remind the House of the famous no-detriment principle, under which the costs of having to put this right for the rest of the United Kingdom should be borne by the Scottish Parliament. So not only will the taxpayer lose out in Scotland but also the citizen from the point of view of security.

I make one final point. I do not want to repeat all the arguments put forward at the time of the Scotland Act, as it now is, in 2016. The conduct of the Scottish Government in respect of Scottish policing is extremely worrying for everyone in the United Kingdom. We have a situation whereby a police chief constable has been on leave for some time while accusations were investigated. The Scottish Police Authority on 8 November wrote to the chief constable asking him to come back to work on 10 November, and the Scottish Police Minister, Mr Matheson, overruled the independent authority and told it to withdraw the letter asking the chief constable to come back to work. The independence of the police from political action is a fundamental part of our constitution; so is the rest of the United Kingdom really happy for the British Transport Police to be put in the hands of a Government who show little respect for the independence of police authorities or the constitutional principles involved?

I was very much opposed to creating a single police authority in Scotland for the very reason that it creates a risk of political interference in the operations of the police. That single authority has been created; it has not produced any of the savings that were considered likely to arise, and it has created a huge problem of morale. There have been several examples whereby Police Scotland has fallen below the very high standards that we have been used to in a generation. I say to the Scottish Nationalist Government in Edinburgh, first put your house in order before you wish to destroy an organisation such as the British Transport Police. There is a duty on Ministers to do everything that they can to prevent this happening, albeit that the powers lie. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and agree with him in his objectives, but not—

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

In his contribution, the noble Lord mentioned terrorism, which is a critical issue. I speak from the other side of the border—Cumbria—where we of course have the experience of two other police constabularies: the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Ministry of Defence Police. These are absolutely critical in the way that we monitor possible terrorism. Have these two forces played any part in the debate in Scotland?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not know the answer to that question but I am sure my noble friend the Minister will be happy to deal with that when he comes to reply. I know others want to contribute so I ought to sit down, but I hope that, in his response, the Minister can offer some comfort. This matter is about not just Scotland but the security of the whole of the United Kingdom and a Government putting politics before the safety of the people.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I shall be brief. In preparation for the debate two years ago, I checked with officials and Ministers in the Department for Transport here, first, whether they approved of this proposal and, secondly, whether they had been consulted. The answer was no in both cases. They did not know that it was happening. They shrugged their shoulders and said, “Well, the Government have decided to do it”, and the Labour Party at that time went along with it. That is why we had a debate two years ago and it is why we divided the House at half past eleven at night. We nearly won but not quite. However, we were right, and nearly everybody who has spoken tonight has confirmed that.

I want to make two points. As one noble Lord said, the BTP is funded in England and Wales by the operators and Network Rail. As we all know, Network Rail is now owned by the Government. So who is funding the BTP in Scotland, and what about Virgin Trains, which goes up the east and west coasts? Does it fund the police until it gets to Gretna or Berwick, and who is funding it beyond there? This affects the franchises. There is a problem with the franchise on the east coast main line at the moment.

Finally, I turn to Article 6 of the draft order. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, said, it allows the British Transport Police to cross territories. The British Transport Police from England may be able to go north into Scotland, but the order does not say anything about the Scottish police being able to chase people south of the border. Does that mean that they will have to get off at a station at around that point? I do not think that there is a station at Gretna any longer, but does it mean that they will have to get off at a station somewhere around there? If the British Transport Police is mentioned in this order as being allowed to go north to arrest people or whatever, I need an answer from the Minister on what will happen with regard to police going in the other direction. How will the Scottish transport police, or whatever they are to be called, be able to operate south of the border without them being mentioned in a new Article 6(d) in the order as being allowed to work extraterritorially? This situation seems extraordinary, and I look forward to the Minister’s answer.

[Lord Clark of Windermere]

My Lords, this debate has inevitably centred on Scotland and the British Transport Police, but civilian police forces such as the British Transport Police—I emphasise “civilian” police forces—were created for a particular reason. There are at least two other such police forces. The Ministry of Defence Police—not the “Redcaps”—and the Civil Nuclear Constabulary were similarly created for a particular reason.

Having lived for most of my life in the borderlands in the north of England on the opposite side to Scotland, I am very aware of those three civilian police forces, and I am interested in the Government’s reaction. If they concede on the British Transport Police but do not follow the sensible suggestions of my noble friend Lord Foulkes, what will happen to the Civil Nuclear Constabulary? I declare an interest as a former director of Sellafield. I shall be a bit circumspect in what I say about the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, but we should bear in mind even now the transport of material from Dounreay and other sites in Scotland to Sellafield. All those trains are accompanied by armed members of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, just as every defence establishment in Scotland is policed by the Ministry of Defence Police, a GB body. So, when we talk about this order, I am interested in what happens to the other comparable civilian police forces.

[Lord McAvoy (Lab)]

My Lords, if I say anything, I will only be repeating some of the things that have already been said a lot more eloquently. It only remains for me to say that we fully support and congratulate my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock on his determination and persistence in this matter. He has made a reasonable request. I know from previous experience that the Minister is a serious and flexible man, and I am quite sure that he will respond in a positive manner.