Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2016 (Consequential Provisions) Order 2017

Lord Forsyth of Drumlean Excerpts

Wednesday 10th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Wallace of Tankerness (LD)]

My Lords, with characteristic vigour, the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes of Cumnock, has laid out the many misgivings that have been expressed about the proposed merger—it is not even a merger but a dismemberment of the British Transport Police, with the Scottish part of it being put into Police Scotland. Many of the arguments were rehearsed when your Lordships’ House debated the devolution of legislative competence for dealing with the policing of railways and railway premises during the passage of the Scotland Act back in 2016.

Before coming back to that, perhaps I may do the unforgivable and talk about what the order and the amendment say. As the noble Lord, Lord Duncan, indicated, the order takes forward the response by the Scottish Parliament to a decision of the Supreme Court on which the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope of Craighead, sat in the Cadder case. I have a vivid memory of the time, because the Scottish Parliament had to pass emergency legislation immediately to address the breach of the European Convention on Human Rights that had been identified by the Supreme Court. At the time, as Advocate-General for Scotland, I had to take careful note of what was going on in the Scottish Parliament. We had a TV monitor of the parliamentary proceedings in my office because we had to decide very quickly whether we wished to make reference to the Supreme Court if we thought that any Bill had gone beyond the legislative competence of the Scottish Parliament and whether any amendments being passed right up to the last minute would change that. It was open to me under Section 33(3) of the Scotland Act 1998 to indicate to the Presiding Officer that I would not use the four weeks available to consider whether there should be a reference to the Supreme Court and to indicate that I would not refer it. At that point, with concurrence from the Attorney-General and the Lord Advocate, the Bill could go immediately for Royal Assent, and that is what happened.

It was always anticipated that there would have to be further legislation, which came along six years later, but with the benefit of a review undertaken by the then Lord Justice Clerk, now Lord Justice General Carloway. It is the provisions of that 2016 Act—which, I should point out, received Royal Assent two months before the Scotland Act 2016, to put into perspective what we are debating today—that give rise to the order. As the Minister said in his opening remarks, many of the provisions are to increase the rights of suspects held in detention and deal with the powers of police. Because the Scottish Parliament cannot legislate for police outside Scotland in relation to an arrest made in respect of a crime committed in Scotland, or make legislative provision for the British Transport Police—at least, it could not in 2016—the order is necessary to ensure that if the British Transport Police, for example, arrest someone, that person should have the same rights as if they were arrested by a constable of Police Scotland.

That is perfectly proper. These are the provisions of the order that relate to the British Transport Police, along with a further provision relating to stop-and- search powers, which are important and which we do not regret—far from it. I rather suspect that if Her Majesty’s Government reviewed the operation of the provisions in the light of incorporating the British Transport Police into Police Scotland, they might well find that it makes things simpler, because it would not need to be included in the order.

That is why I have misgivings about supporting the amendment, but it is important to reflect on some of the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes. It is important to say at the outset that the integration of the Scottish part of the British Transport Police into Police Scotland was not a recommendation of the commission under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Kelvin. It recommended devolution of legislative competence in relation to the policing of railways and railway premises and that the British Transport Police should become a cross-border authority. It is the SNP’s interpretation that it has to be integrated into Police Scotland. Integration was only one of three options that the British Transport Police working group identified. Significantly, it was the option with the highest degree of risk and was opposed by most stakeholders.

The noble Lord mentioned the recent report of Her Majesty’s Chief Inspector of Constabulary in Scotland. He found in paragraph 47:

“As the decision to transfer BTP’s functions in Scotland to Police Scotland was a Ministerial decision, no single, detailed and authoritative business case which articulates the benefits, disadvantages or costs of the transfer to Police Scotland was developed”.


In many respects, the Scottish Parliament has been asked to do this blind but, as we have heard, there is a majority. There was a failure to consult in any meaningful way, a failure to work out how we maintain the detailed expertise of the British Transport Police on the railways postmerger, how costs would be assigned and how potential disputes would be resolved. That is being done at a time when it is fair to say that considerable challenges face Police Scotland as a result of what I and my party believe was a botched centralisation. Indeed, my Liberal Democrat colleagues in the Scottish Parliament were lonely voices when they made the case against the centralisation of Police Scotland. We have seen a succession of resignations, suspensions of senior officers and early retirements, both in Police Scotland and the Scottish Police Authority. We welcome Susan Deacon’s appointment and hope she can get a grip on things, as she has recently taken the reins. There has been a failed IT project and a report from the Auditor-General in Scotland referring to a number of instances of poor governance and poor use of public money. If that had happened in the second biggest police force in England, let alone the second biggest in the United Kingdom, we would probably have had a “Panorama” special by now. I am not sure why the media have not latched on to what has been going on.

I do not think the time is right at all for this merger. There are other issues which the Chief Inspector of Constabulary has identified in his findings. Among them are the facts that full costs have not been assessed, and the financial impact on railway policy in England and Wales of transfer of railway policing in Scotland has not yet been fully assessed. In that respect, will the Minister tell us, if it transpires that there are costs to transport policing in England and Wales, under the various memorandums of understanding with regard to allocation of costs, where will that cost fall? Will it fall to the Scottish Government to bear? That will undoubtedly be important as things go forward.

The noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, raised the potential issue of transfer of property. Are there any consequential orders or steps that have to be taken under the Railway Policing (Scotland) Act 2017 that would involve the United Kingdom Government in giving full effect to that? What would be the UK Government’s policy in relation to it? As the noble Lord said, there is some leverage here, and I hope it is used sensitively.

It is also fair, however, to acknowledge that this Parliament, including this House, agreed to the devolution of railway policing in Scotland. I was going to say that the ship has sailed but it is probably better to say that the train has left the station. It is a matter for the Scottish Parliament. My Liberal Democrat colleagues in the Scottish Parliament, supported by Labour and Conservative MSPs, sought to delay the merger until 2027 at the very earliest, failing which to oppose it outright—but it was a decision of the Scottish Parliament to reject that delay and, indeed, to support what happened. It would be remiss of this House to gainsay what has been done by the elected Scottish Parliament, but there are issues still to be determined and some indication of the Government’s stance on those would be very welcome.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean (Con)]

My Lords, the noble and learned Lord may be correct about the train having left the station, but I remind him that during the passage of the Scotland Act as it now is many of us warned about this problem—and he himself made a speech exactly saying that. But such was the political imperative from some people not to be seen doing anything that would cause an upset with the Scottish nationalists that we allowed this to go ahead. The result is that we are looking at the prospect of the destruction of an organisation that has served this United Kingdom well for more than two centuries. Is it two centuries, or over two centuries?

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester (Lab)]

Since 1826.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

Since 1826. Okay, so it is almost two centuries—certainly since there were first proper means of crossing the border at speed.

I just find it extraordinary. What can possibly be driving this? What can be the motivation? At a time when we are threatened by lone-wolf terrorists, travelling around the country, when we have seen attacks in Glasgow, Manchester and Birmingham, what on earth could be driving this? Why would someone want to break up an organisation which has a proven track record of success, which has shown great expertise, and which is specialist in its nature? How will the practical problems be resolved? Does the policeman have to get off at the station as soon as the train reaches the border and someone else come on board? What is driving this? I have come to the conclusion that the answer lies in the name—the British Transport Police. This is the sort of ideological battle that we thought we had put behind us in Scotland being translated into something that threatens the security of people in Scotland and the rest of the United Kingdom.

[Lord Maxton (Lab)]

There is no station at the border at all, whatever, in Scotland, between Scotland and England. The first station is Carlisle, which is in England.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

There is also Berwick. Of course, the noble Lord is right about that, but the people who are responsible for this act of vandalism—because that is what it is—would want to have a station there because they want to have a border there. That is the point that I want to make.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, made the kind of speech that we expected from him—a very careful, legalistic speech that points out, quite correctly, that what the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, is proposing is not really relevant to what we are all talking about. I hope that he will not press the amendment to a vote, because I would find it very difficult to vote against this measure, for the reasons that the noble and learned Lord gave. I would find it difficult to vote in favour of his regret amendment, but I absolutely agree with him in his analysis of what needs to happen and on the levers that are available to Ministers to prevent it happening.

One point that the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, made that I thought was very interesting is about who will bear the costs of this, if it happens. I remind the House of the famous no-detriment principle, under which the costs of having to put this right for the rest of the United Kingdom should be borne by the Scottish Parliament. So not only will the taxpayer lose out in Scotland but also the citizen from the point of view of security.

I make one final point. I do not want to repeat all the arguments put forward at the time of the Scotland Act, as it now is, in 2016. The conduct of the Scottish Government in respect of Scottish policing is extremely worrying for everyone in the United Kingdom. We have a situation whereby a police chief constable has been on leave for some time while accusations were investigated. The Scottish Police Authority on 8 November wrote to the chief constable asking him to come back to work on 10 November, and the Scottish Police Minister, Mr Matheson, overruled the independent authority and told it to withdraw the letter asking the chief constable to come back to work. The independence of the police from political action is a fundamental part of our constitution; so is the rest of the United Kingdom really happy for the British Transport Police to be put in the hands of a Government who show little respect for the independence of police authorities or the constitutional principles involved?

I was very much opposed to creating a single police authority in Scotland for the very reason that it creates a risk of political interference in the operations of the police. That single authority has been created; it has not produced any of the savings that were considered likely to arise, and it has created a huge problem of morale. There have been several examples whereby Police Scotland has fallen below the very high standards that we have been used to in a generation. I say to the Scottish Nationalist Government in Edinburgh, first put your house in order before you wish to destroy an organisation such as the British Transport Police. There is a duty on Ministers to do everything that they can to prevent this happening, albeit that the powers lie. I commend the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and agree with him in his objectives, but not—

[Lord Clark of Windermere (Lab)]

In his contribution, the noble Lord mentioned terrorism, which is a critical issue. I speak from the other side of the border—Cumbria—where we of course have the experience of two other police constabularies: the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Ministry of Defence Police. These are absolutely critical in the way that we monitor possible terrorism. Have these two forces played any part in the debate in Scotland?

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I do not know the answer to that question but I am sure my noble friend the Minister will be happy to deal with that when he comes to reply. I know others want to contribute so I ought to sit down, but I hope that, in his response, the Minister can offer some comfort. This matter is about not just Scotland but the security of the whole of the United Kingdom and a Government putting politics before the safety of the people.

[Baroness Ramsay of Cartvale (Lab)]

My Lords, I come in just after the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, because I agree with a great deal of what he said. Unlike him, however, I was a great advocate for a national police force in Scotland. I have spent a lot of my professional life in the Nordic countries and they all, without exception, have a national police service. I saw no reason why Scotland could not exactly fit the same mould of an excellent national police force.

However, like a lot of other people, I have been underwhelmed by the way that the concept—I still believe in the principle—has been implemented in Scotland, but I do not believe that this is the right place or time to talk about the ills and misfortunes of Police Scotland. What I would say—and I will try to be very brief and not repeat what has been said already—is that it seems absolute folly to think of going for an amalgamation of a very professional, exceptionally efficient force like the British Transport Police, with its special expertise in anti-terrorism, which is of very great relevance right now. To try to amalgamate that with Police Scotland—even if Police Scotland was not in such a dire situation in many directions—would, at the best of times, lead to a situation of uncertainty and change. We really should not inflict this on the country. Apart from efficiencies and principles, there is also the question of the effect on the security of the country, and I really think it should be avoided at all costs.

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[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

My Lords, in opening the debate, the Minister referred to the degree of opposition to this proposal in this House. He was not wrong in that. He could also have mentioned the degree of opposition in the Scottish Parliament, most particularly among his colleagues in the Conservative Party, who are on record as opposing this proposal most vigorously, particularly Ruth Davidson. He could have included the Liberal Democrats and the Labour opposition in the Scottish Parliament as well. But above all, he should have mentioned the opposition of the British Transport Police and the British Transport Police Authority. When it gave evidence to the Scottish Parliament in March, it said that dealing with fatalities, for example, could take 50% longer under the new plans, and that,

“there is well-defined evidence that a non-specialist force is less able to provide the consistent levels of service that a dedicated policing commitment can offer”.

Decades of experience of dealing with IRA threats would be lost, and the work that the BTP undertakes as the lead authority on scrap metal theft across the whole of Great Britain would also be lost if this proposal went through.

Fortunately, there is an opportunity for the Scottish Parliament to think again about the model of devolution which it is putting forward. Indeed, it would have been helpful if this House had passed the amendment which a number of us tabled almost exactly two years ago, which made it clear that, while we were not opposed to devolution of transport policing in Scotland, that devolution should be on the basis that a force linked to the British Transport Police should be the agency that carries it out. I spoke to the chief constable of the British Transport Police, and he is entirely happy with that. Indeed, in its evidence to the Scottish Parliament the BTP said that it is happy to have a direct relationship with Scottish Ministers and with Holyrood. If it is necessary to change the name of the force in Scotland, for the reasons that the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth, referred to, that is possible—there is no reason why it should not be called “Transport Police Scotland” or “Scotland Transport Police”. Nobody is hung up on the name of the British Transport Police. What matters is that the job is done properly and in the most effective way.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

The noble Lord says that nobody is hung up on the name of the British Transport Police, but the Scottish National Party is.

[Lord Faulkner of Worcester]

The noble Lord is of course absolutely right.

I will finish by picking up one of the points that the noble Lord made and adding to it. He referred to the no-detriment principle in the Smith commission report. Principle 5 of that report says that the package of powers agreed through the Smith commission process should,

“not cause detriment to the UK as a whole nor to any of its constituent parts”.

It is evident that there is a financial implication. There is also an implication for travellers travelling between England and Scotland, who will suffer a detriment, as a number of speakers in this debate have indicated. Therefore, when the Minister goes back to talk to the Scottish Government, he must take seriously the need for that no-detriment principle to be applied and impress on them that it certainly applies in this case.

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[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

I thank the noble Lord for his intervention. The orders, when they arrive, will be constructed through the collaborative process between the two Governments, which I touched on a moment ago. In any order, they will bring forward proposals that comply with both Scots law and the broader law of England and Wales. We should be able to have that before us.

It is important to stress, as several noble Lords have, that the Smith commission and the legislation by which its conclusions were enacted are important elements of the continuing Scottish devolution process.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

I apologise to my noble friend but am I being stupid? When he said that there will be further orders in connection with the British Transport Police, is he saying that the Government intend to support the break-up of the British Transport Police?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

To be clear, in this instance, the Smith commission and the rules that it contained devolved to the Scottish Parliament the right to take this matter forward. The Scottish Parliament has determined how it shall do so. Today’s discussion is about how it has interpreted the clauses. At present, it is anticipated that we must make sure that the ongoing British Transport Police continues to function. I will come to the points raised in a manner that will, I hope, satisfy noble Lords—

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[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord has again pre-empted what I am about to say. To be very clear, the purpose of the order is to ensure that criminals can be pursued in either direction. It seeks to equalise the ability of the transport police to function in both jurisdictions, and it delivers that.

I come back to the remarks made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness. The functions of the British Transport Police in Scotland will be a devolved matter. However, in the previous debate, the noble and learned Lord went on to say that that is slightly different from saying that British Transport Police itself will be devolved. It is, therefore, a matter of some interpretation. We have heard a number of points thus far from noble Lords on why that interpretation does not meet the test of good policing within the wider infrastructure of the United Kingdom.

Recent press reports of morale in the Scottish division of the British Transport Police show that up to two-thirds of officers are unsure whether they will transfer to Police Scotland following the merger, and only one-third of officers have declared that they definitely intend to do so. That should give pause for thought and concern. It is also worth stressing that, importantly, British Transport Police has, throughout its history, been a success. Since 2005, it has reduced crime on Scotland’s rail network by 56%, an achievement that compares favourably with an overall reduction of crime in Scotland of 38%. That is no mean feat and certainly worthy of praise. We should recognise that here.

The ultimate test of the merger under discussion is whether it makes the policing of Scotland’s railways better. As a former Member of the European Parliament, I recall how important it was that, before substantive changes were made to legislation, serious impact assessments were undertaken to ensure that the outcome would be delivered by the means chosen. That important element is missing from some of the discussions being put forward. I say that as a member of the travelling public and in recognition of the concerns that have been expressed by a number of the agencies and bodies cited this evening.

Before I conclude, I will touch on some of the substantive points made. I begin with the confusion that may have arisen around what will happen next. We need to put at the fore of our minds that this involves police officers who have delivered for the betterment of our country. The merger is not due to any failing of theirs and at no point should it be recognised as such. Nor is it a failing of British Transport Police in any element of its operation.

Some of the issues raised tonight need to be dealt with in great detail, but I will touch on what the noble Lord, Lord Clark of Windermere, said. He talked about the inclusion of the Civil Nuclear Constabulary and the Ministry of Defence Police. It is important to stress that the Smith commission did not at any point intend to devolve these aspects. Therefore, although they are touched on in the order, at no point will these functions be onward devolved to the Police Scotland operation. That is particularly important.

To make this move work, a joint programme board has been created. That board is particularly focused upon where the points of friction rest and how they can be addressed going forward. I will come back to its role in delivering the outcomes that noble Lords here today would like to see.

The noble Baroness, Lady Liddell, touched upon one of the most fundamental questions—terrorism—and how we can assure there is no diminution in our preparedness, our scope, our ability to operate and our attention to the issues before us. There are pre-existing protocols between Police Scotland and the various agencies and constabularies south of the border. These will continue to deliver against that outcome. It is important, however, that they are tested to make sure that they are fit for purpose in that regard.

This is not only about Scotland—it is important to stress that. The British Transport Police covers the whole of our country, not only one part of it. Further, we have to recognise that the threats to our country are not specific to one nation or region but, rather, in many instances are a threat to us all. We must recognise, therefore, that there will be responsible agencies which will take these matters forward.

Let me touch on where we can make serious progress. To address the challenges of the onward devolution of the policing of the railways in Scotland, the two Governments have established a joint programme board. The board is currently working to achieve an orderly transfer and to provide affected officers and staff with clarity at the earliest opportunity. The board has sought to address the findings of the recent report on devolution conducted by Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary in Scotland, which has been cited by a number of noble Lords today. Its principal purpose is to ensure that each of those issues is addressed head on.

Therefore, minded as I am of the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, and other noble Lords, following this debate I will secure a meeting with the UK Government co-chair of the joint programme board. At that meeting I will take the salient points from this debate and put them before it. I will ask the board to produce a report, which I anticipate will form the basis of a formal discussion between the Government of the United Kingdom and the Government of Scotland. Thereafter I will write to the noble Lord with the result of that discussion and place a copy of that in the House. The next meeting takes place on 30 January 2018.

I stress again that there are two further Scotland Act orders pertaining to the British Transport Police. I will report back before these orders are laid.

[Lord Forsyth of Drumlean]

When the British Government’s representative—the Minister responsible for this—attends that board, what will his policy be? Will it be to maintain the British Transport Police or to allow it to be broken up?

[Lord Duncan of Springbank]

The noble Lord, once again, puts his finger on the issue. Our purpose will be to ensure that the answers which come from the board are satisfactory. If they are not satisfactory, then opportunities will be provided for this House and others to move forward in a different way. Oh, I heard someone say, “What does that mean?”, which is a helpful remark. I was trying to be cryptic in one sense. I am basically saying that this is not the end of the story. I hope that we will receive satisfactory answers at the programme board which will allow us the clarity to establish that we are satisfied that policing on our railways is not affected to the point of detriment.