Representation of the People (Election Expenses Exclusion) (Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 14th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I have had a remarkably easy time—oh, I am sorry.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I will be very brief, so do not worry. Paragraph 14.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum refers to the EnAble Fund for Elected Office having,

“robust checks and balances in place to ensure that grants are allocated to eligible applicants”.

It then sets out the process to ensure that happens, because, obviously, public money is being expended. However, in the case we are discussing here, I will quote paragraph 14.1:

“There are no plans to monitor or review the statutory instrument … monitoring or reviewing of the statutory instrument is difficult to implement and unnecessary”.


The Minister referred in his contribution to “reasonably incurred” and “reasonably attributable”. Whenever I see “reasonably” I always think of the courts. What happens if there is a challenge on the basis that an expense has not been “reasonably incurred” or “reasonably attributable” and therefore should have been declared as part of the base limit? What happens in the event that that is breached?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I obviously spoke too soon when I said I had had a reasonably easy ride. I am grateful to noble Lords for their broad support for the measure. On the issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, as I said, we are extending an exemption that already applies to non-party campaigners to those standing for public office. I am not aware that the existing exemption for non-party campaigners has given rise to the difficulties he presents, but he asked about the precautions we are taking to make sure that this is not abused. The EnAble Fund for Elected Office has robust checks and balances in place. There is an initial triage process—a meeting with the applicant, in person where possible. During these checks, applicants will be asked to confirm that they have a disability that necessitates reasonable adjustments to enable them to stand for election. In addition, applicants intending to stand for election will undergo a verification process to ensure that their intention to stand is genuine.

A risk confronts anybody who stands for elected office and misuses the expenses regime, as we discussed yesterday: they stand to be disqualified if they have not incurred expenditure reasonably. Those definitions, as I think I said, are already on the statute book in relation to non-party campaigners. I do not think that there has been any difficulty.

Verify: Digital Identity System

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 26th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I challenge the premise on which the noble Lord based his question. Verify was launched in 2016 and, as I said in my initial reply, now has 3 million subscribers who have completed 8 million transactions. I signed up to Verify over the weekend and, if noble Lords have not, I suggest that they make themselves familiar with this new and innovative service.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the simple truth that, following pressure from the Liberal Democrats in the coalition, Labour’s national identity card scheme, which would have dealt with this problem, was abolished? Is it not odd that it has finally dawned on the Government that identification is vital to protect against entitlement fraud? It has taken them a long time to learn that lesson.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Verify was started under the coalition Government—I think Nick Clegg was in charge of the Cabinet Office when it started—but there is a difference between providing a secure online identity, which Verify does, and an ID card which you have to carry with you. The key difference between Verify and an ID card system is that Verify is voluntary and the ID card was to be compulsory.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

As I read it, it says that the regulations “may” require. It does not say that they are required. Why, in this particular case, can the Government not simply concede to the amendment? It is not a requirement. It says “may”, so it is up to the Government to decide how they want to proceed.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is reverting to a discussion that I think we had in Committee, when we had a debate on “may” versus “must”.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The consultations I was referring to concern the definition of a large service station. We have not defined that and that is the consultation we want to embark on. Once that consultation has been completed, it is the Government’s intention to use the powers under Clause 10 to make progress and designate areas where we want more charge points.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On that point, if it is the Government’s intention to proceed, then the word “may” is not really required. Anyhow, why not leave “may” in and include the words in the amendment? I cannot see what the Government lose by accepting this amendment. It is totally at their discretion as to what happens.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The Government have made this clear right from the beginning—I shall come on to this in a moment. When we consulted on measures in the Bill we determined that it was most appropriate to mandate provision at sites, such as fuel retailers and service areas, which are already invested in providing services related to vehicle refuelling. That was the basis on which we consulted and the basis on which the Bill was brought forward. What the amendments seek to do, at a very late stage in the Bill, is to broaden the scope very widely, beyond the initial areas we identified, to include a whole lot of others. We do not think that necessary because, as I said a moment ago, the market is responding. These charge points are already being provided in supermarkets and private car parks and the Government want to take powers only where absolutely necessary.

The locations we have chosen, the motorway service areas and the large service stations, are crucial in reducing range anxiety so that drivers can be confident in undertaking long journeys that they will be able to recharge easily and quickly en route. This is an issue that will remain for the longest journey, even with developments in battery technology, so it makes the most sense to ensure that the infrastructure for those journeys is provided for now and in the Bill. We expect that for many journeys range anxiety will fall away as the battery ranges of new electric vehicles increase, reducing the need for recharging every time an EV driver arrives at their destination. For all these reasons, the Government do not believe they need additional powers to regulate in this area.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister refers to long journeys but I think that the biggest market for this product will actually be in the inner cities, where people make short journeys and will want lots of these charging points. That is the reverse of the position taken by the Government. I do not want to drive 100 miles up the M1 and call in at every service station to have a recharge. One wants to use these vehicles in the inner-city areas. The Government seem to have it the wrong way round.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Many people already charge at home. If one looks around the streets just a stone’s throw from the Palace of Westminster one can see an increasing number of charge points, where people who do not have access to home charging can recharge their vehicle. You can recharge your vehicle in the car park at the other end of the building.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I want at this early stage to clarify something. Clause 12(1) refers to,

“a prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.

Could that be HMRC?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure whether that derives precisely from the amendment that I am debating, but it is a legitimate question, and I will seek to ensure that before we finish the noble Lord has a response to whether Clause 12(1) applies to HMRC. I am not quite sure why it would, because I do not see how it is directly involved in the power generation business. However, that is an off-the-cuff remark, and an authoritative response will arrive, I hope, before we complete the next group of amendments.

The DPRRC said:

“It is very significant that the powers conferred by clause 12 will allow requirements to be imposed on domestic consumers, enforceable by financial penalties. If, as stated in the memorandum, it is not the Government’s policy for the powers to be used in this way, then we recommend that this limitation should be set out on the face of the Bill”.


These amendments represent no change to policy but provide clarification of the Government’s intent. The transmission of anonymised data from domestic charge points will still be useful to predict demands on the grid, so the obligation could still apply to domestic charge points. However, we expect that this would be done by placing the requirements on organisations which have control of the relevant data: for example, charge point or energy companies.

The amendment demonstrates the Government’s intention not to place obligations on domestic users of charge points under this clause, and I hope that noble Lords are able to support it. I beg to move.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, Clause 12(1) states:

“Regulations may make provision for the purpose of ensuring the ongoing transmission of charge point data to a prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.


Amendment 41 would insert the following:

“Regulations under subsection (1) may not impose requirements on owners or occupiers of domestic premises”.


There is a big hole in the Bill. I want to know where the Government will raise their revenue from when fuel duty is reduced. At the moment we raise £28 billion per annum. Over a period of years, as the use of electric vehicles increases, there will be a revenue loss. At the moment, the duty on petrol is nearly 60p a litre, on LPG it is nearly 32p, on natural gas it is 25p, and on diesel it is roughly the same as petrol.

The Society of Motor Manufacturers and Traders has expressed concern about this. Its view is that revenue will come through road pricing, which I think some people call “spy in the sky”. This whole question of road pricing has always worried me. However, there are other forms of raising the revenue. There is road fund licensing, which would be very expensive if it is substituting fuel duty, or a tax on the meter in the home. In the end, that is where they will have to raise the tax. However, I think that it would be based on the recorded usage on the meter at the residence. If it is based on tax according to the meter at the home, there will have to be two meters in every home—one for the domestic use of electricity and one for the raising of revenue to substitute for the loss of fuel duty—which means that there will be two separate rates. We are entitled to know the Government’s thinking on this. How do they intend to raise revenue in future to substitute for fuel duty losses? In the time that I have spoken, I am sure that the civil servants in the Box have provided the Minister with an answer to my question.

[Lord Lucas]

Is there some rule of law that implies at the end of Amendment 41 the words “in respect of those premises”? If there is, I would like to know what it is. If there is not, then all that a vast operator of charge points has to do is to buy one house. It will then be the owners of domestic premises and this clause will no longer apply to it.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I think that it would apply to it as an operator, although of course it would not apply to it as an owner of residential property. We have made it absolutely clear that it is the charge operator and not the consumer who has to supply the data. That is the thrust of these amendments. Perhaps I may reflect on what my noble friend has said and write to him, but we do not see this as a loophole whereby a charge operator can escape its obligation to notify the national grid or whoever of the volume of consumption at a particular charge point.

I commend the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, for his ingenuity in seeking to broaden a rather narrow debate about data from a charge point into one about the future taxation policy as the nation moves from petrol-consuming vehicles to electricity. I am sure that there are brains in the Treasury who are aware of the potential threat to their revenue, but it is essentially a matter for the Treasury and not for this Bill. The Bill is not about taxation. The policy scoping notes and the Explanatory Notes make it clear that it is not intended to use this clause for taxation purposes in any way. The noble Lord raises important issues but, with respect, they do not arise from this narrow group of amendments.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why, then, have these regulations? As I understand it, it would not be possible to raise the revenue from the vehicular meter in the home in the event that Amendment 41 were in place.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

It is important that the electricity grid is aware of hot points in the pattern of consumption in order to plan ahead. Therefore, it needs the data to find out in what parts of the country demand is coming from and at what times of the day. The amendment would simply place the obligation clearly on the operator of the charge points and not on the domestic consumer.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps the noble Lord can answer the original question that I asked. Will HMRC be one of these groups of prescribed persons?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

No, I do not believe that it will be.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Committee: 2nd sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Thursday 17th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, just referred to the issue that I wanted to raise and which I raised earlier in Committee. There will potentially be a substantial drop in revenue. It is important that the Bill goes a little bit further than it does in Clause 12, which refers to a,

“prescribed person or to persons of a prescribed description”.

Why can the Government not be a little more frank? We basically mean the excise authorities—they are the people who want this information. Ultimately, that is the way the tax will be raised, unless we go down the route of satellite observation of your vehicle running along the motorway counting up how many miles you have done and where you went, which might worry a lot of people in a world of arguments over privacy.

I hope the noble Baroness’s comments will be followed up by the Minister. The Government might be prepared to go a little further on Report than the wording in Clause 12 and be absolutely frank. This is how it is being read outside: “This is the way we intend to raise taxes”, against the argument, when it starts, of whether to use something like satellites. Could Ministers be a little more frank and give us an undertaking that they might reconsider that position and the wording in Clause 12(1) on Report?

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords for raising the importance of consultation prior to regulations being made using the powers covered by the Bill. It would of course be sensible, and indeed essential, for us to engage with a wide range of stakeholders to ensure that any regulations brought forward under the Bill are fair and proportionate while delivering the changes that will meet the needs of users and greatly improve the charging experience. It will be particularly important to consult those stakeholders that will be directly impacted by any of these regulations.

The Government have a set of good consultation principles—for example, that consultations should be targeted, clear and concise. They were published in 2016 and a copy was placed in the parliamentary Library. These principles were followed when consulting on primary legislation for the Bill and we will continue to follow them. They were updated in 2018 and can be accessed on the government website, GOV.UK.

Prior to introducing any regulations in this part of the Bill, we will engage with all appropriate stakeholders. This is already a requirement under Clause 16(3). Amendment 52, moved by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, calls for consultation specifically with charge point operators and vehicle manufacturers. As we explained in the policy scoping notes, under Clause 9 the Government would consult widely with stakeholders on the issue of connection before introducing regulations. This consultation would of course include charge point manufacturers and operators, and vehicle manufacturers.

Amendment 67 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, also seeks to require the Secretary of State to publish draft criteria and definitions of large fuel retailers and service area operators at least six months before making the regulation. Any regulations brought forward under Clause 10 would be informed by consultation with industry, including fuel retailers, motorway service area operators, EV infrastructure providers and operators, and EV manufacturers and drivers, a point insisted on by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. She made a valid point that those currently in the petrol retailing business will want to ensure that they have a future. Their business is basically supplying energy to motorists. They will need to react if motorists start using a different form of energy. It would be in their interests to move in this direction.

The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, raised the point that this might have implications for the Treasury. I will not go there. She also mentioned the possibility of road pricing—another sensitive political issue. I am not going to go there either, but they were valid points.

As explained in the policy scoping notes, the purpose of the consultation would be to seek industry’s views on the definitions of large fuel retailers and service area operators and any criteria for the locations at which fuel retailers will have to make specified provision.

Short-Term Letting

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 26th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

May I commend the vigour and tenacity that my noble friend applies to the subject, rivalling that of our noble friend Lord Naseby on retailers in the high street? The Government are in favour of the sharing economy; we believe that householders should have the right to rent out their rooms or their property when they do not need it, with the minimum of bureaucracy. Increasingly, visitors to London, whether from overseas or other parts of the country, expect to see a broader range of accommodation than traditional hotels, and we believe that London should respond to this changing market. Exceptionally, in London, this right is constrained and it can only happen for 90 nights per calendar year. Local authorities have powers to enforce that limit. We have no plans to extend the powers of local authorities beyond those which they already have to inspect properties, nor do we have any plans to introduce a register of the nature suggested by my noble friend.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, why do we not turn the question round and place a responsibility on local authorities to inform HMRC when properties are rented in their areas, particularly if we can build a register of landlords of properties? That would enable HMRC to pick up the huge amount of tax that is not paid by landlords who are avoiding tax in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord raises an important issue about the non-declaration of income from rented property. In 2013, HMRC launched an initiative to address the so-called tax gap. As a result, some 26,000 landlords came forward to self-correct undeclared income and £150 million had been collected by August 2017. Some 45,000 of what HMRC calls “nudge letters” have been sent out where there is third-party evidence of undeclared income. HMRC has a fairly sophisticated IT system to collect data from a variety of sources to track down income. Of course, it can approach local authorities for information on, for example, housing benefit or other information they may have in order to safeguard the revenue.

Local Elections: Voter ID

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Tuesday 24th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is quite right: three local authorities are piloting new procedures for voter ID on postal votes—Tower Hamlets, Peterborough and Slough. I said a little about that in my opening remarks. Some local authorities are not only making people more aware of the incidence of electoral fraud and encouraging them to report it where necessary to Crimestoppers, but are following up after the election—contacting certain electors who have used the postal vote—to make sure that nothing improper has taken place.

With regard to turning up at a polling station and not being able to vote, in one local authority—I think it is Swindon—if you do not have the necessary documentation on polling day you can take along someone called an “attester”, who has the necessary documentation and is registered in the same ward, and if the attester vouchsafes your identity you can then vote.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Is the Minister aware that during the proceedings on the Electoral Administration Bill on 21 March 2006, in col. GC 94, some of us proposed an alternative to electoral registration in a scheme similar to the pilots currently proposed by the Government? There was, however, a crucial difference: individual local authorities could apply for permission to run voter ID control schemes only if they believed that they had a particular problem with electoral fraud. With the Government now proposing pilots with a view to a national rollout, in addition to existing electoral registration schemes, which are already costing us millions—a fortune and, in my view, a waste of money—will not more money be wasted on a problem that affects only a very small number of local authorities?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I was not in your Lordships’ House in March 2006—I was elsewhere—so I do not recall that intervention. However, the noble Lord made a similar intervention when we debated a statutory instrument on the combined authorities order 2017. We are not minded to adopt the proposals that he has referred to. Any incidence of electoral fraud is unacceptable. The independent Electoral Commission have been pressing for voter ID since 2014; the Eric Pickles report that looked at the wider incidence of voter fraud recommended it as part of the way forward; and I think that this is the right way. I notice that when we debated the measure in Grand Committee there was broad support for the Government’s approach, with a notable dissenting intervention by the noble Lord.

Combined Authorities (Mayoral Elections) (Amendment) Order 2017

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Grand Committee

[Lord Kennedy of Southwark (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, I will make only a few brief remarks on the order and the regulations. Like the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, I refer the House to my interests as a councillor—in the London Borough of Lewisham—and as a vice-president of the Local Government Association.

In general I am supportive of the order and the regulations—I have no problem with them as such. However, there are some issues. As we have heard, one of the themes in the review is fraud. Issues of fraud have been reported far and wide over a number of years in the media and there have been a number of court cases in which people have, quite rightly, been prosecuted and some sent to prison, deservedly so. I think we all agree that we want to make sure that fraud is driven out of our electoral system, and if these go some way towards helping to do that, that is well and good and I support it.

We have had a number of pilots in this area of policy over a number of years—I certainly remember that the Labour Government, and particularly Jack Straw, loved pilots. I just hope that if we have these pilots, we will make a decision on them and move them along a little. I am all for pilots but I want a conclusion as well. If they are seen to improve the electoral system, we should go ahead with them.

On the nomination papers, obviously that is fine. I am surprised that we need to do that, but I am happy that we agree those nomination papers.

I may have heard the Minister say that we consult the people we normally consult, which is the Electoral Commission and the Association of Electoral Administrators—two fine bodies. I have certainly made the point—if not to the Minister then to other Ministers sitting in that position on behalf of the Government—that the one group that is always missed out is the political parties. We have some experts in these areas. I was a member of the Parliamentary Parties Panel, which is the statutory body that the commission consults, and I then became an electoral commissioner, so I sat on the Electoral Commission. I can tell your Lordships that at no point did these bodies consult on these issues with the political parties. They do not. They might say that they do, but they do not, and it is a shame. They might say that we do not need to on this one, because these are purely technical matters. There are people from all parties—we all know some of them very well— who are expert in these areas and can give valuable information, insight and experience. It is a shame; the Government should as a matter of course add in the political parties and formally consult them as well. It would not be a great problem for the Government to do that. We should certainly not rely on the Electoral Commission. As I said, it is a good body and great people—and great commissioners—work there, but I do not want it to consult, because it will not. It does not; it will talk to the administrators, and as this is a technical issue and not a campaign it will not involve the parties. Maybe we should think about that.

My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours makes a valid point about ID cards and fraud. That certainly would have dealt with the issue. The issue is of course that some people do not have ID or what is acceptable ID when you go along to the polling station—what would be acceptable? Everyone has a passport or a driving licence, so what will not be acceptable? That is an issue to deal with. Also, Northern Ireland has a little electoral card, which is very popular, especially among young people, because they say, “It gets us into pubs and clubs because it proves we’re 18”. It is not an ID card but an electoral card provided by the Chief Electoral Officer for Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lord Campbell-Savours mentioned the supplementary vote. All these systems are interesting and useful. I prefer the alternative vote, because it spreads the vote around more evenly than the supplementary vote, but other systems are definitely worth looking at.

Having said that, I support these measures as far as they go. I look forward to the noble Lord’s response.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate, all of whom have indicated their broad support for the measures before the Committee but have raised a number of other issues. A number of those who have spoken are vice-presidents of the Local Government Association. I am not, but I was a vice-president of a predecessor body called the AMA. I was expelled either for rate-capping or for abolishing the GLC, which may well be spent convictions.

I will deal with some of the issues raised. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, is quite right that there are a range of recommendations in the Pickles report. We are dealing with some of them, such as those on harvesting votes by political parties and behaviour at polling stations. They are being dealt with on a separate track.

Tower Hamlets is piloting postal vote ID, to pick up the point the noble Baroness made, so we will have more information on what the options are for dealing with the issue of potential fraud with postal votes, which she raised. In principle, postal votes are a good thing because they help drive up participation in the democratic process. They are a very convenient way of voting, so I would not want to move away from the system we have of postal votes on demand, but we will discover more from Tower Hamlets about how one can drive up the integrity of the system.

Turning to some of the other points made, I take the point that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, made about trying to target the pilot schemes on particular areas where there are known to be problems. The approach we have adopted at this stage is to invite local authorities to take part in the pilot schemes, rather than be prescriptive, which is the approach he was in favour of. Tower Hamlets, which is an area where there has been some difficulty, is taking part in one of the pilot schemes on postal votes.

So far as declarations of interest are concerned, my experience is that the interests of candidates are widely advertised during the process of the campaign— quite often by their opponents. Putting them on the ballot paper would make the ballot paper very cumbersome. I think the noble Lord’s suggestion was that they might go on the nomination paper. We will look at that in conjunction with the Electoral Commission.

On the supplementary vote, there is a Private Member’s Bill coming up in the name of my noble friend Lord Balfe looking at alternative methods of electing local councillors. He is in favour of some form of PR for local government, so if the noble Lord is free on a Friday, there will be an opportunity for him further to develop his views. The supplementary vote is of course used at the moment, as the noble Lord said, for local mayors, combined authority mayors, the London mayor and the PCCs, so it is already embedded in part of the process. I do not think we have any plans to use it more widely.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Does the Minister not see the merit if we target where the problem is and then getting rid of the individual registration scheme? I see no benefit whatever in the scheme other than to deal with a problem in particular areas, which will be dealt with anyhow under other arrangements.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Individual voter registration was introduced, I think with the support of the Opposition, by the last coalition Government. It is now there and it is an improvement—

Personal Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 4th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions Ministers have had in the last year with United Kingdom security and border control authorities on the introduction of personal identity cards.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, in 2010 the coalition Government decided to scrap the ID card scheme and the associated national identity register because it was expensive and represented a substantial erosion of civil liberties. While many countries have identity cards, we have not seen any evidence that they offer greater protection against terrorism or greater control at the border. The Government are not planning to revisit that decision.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Many people would contest those conclusions. Does the Minister accept that the issues of national security, crime, protection against fraud, and entitlements are of concern right across this House and across the political divide? With that in mind, would it not be helpful if the Liaison Committee, which is about to select its ad hoc committee inquiry subjects for next year, were to support an inquiry into national identity cards? I appeal to Members across the House to write to Philippa Tudor, the clerk to the Liaison Committee, supporting this year’s application for an ID card ad hoc committee inquiry? If not, once again, it is likely that the application will be rejected.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My Lords, I understand the noble Lord’s disappointment that when he applied to the Liaison Committee last time for an ad hoc committee on this very subject, his bid was not successful. There were 35 bids and only four ad hoc committees were established: I hope he accepts that his disappointment was shared by others. An email went to all noble Lords—I think it was last week—from the noble Lord, Lord McFall, inviting bids for the next tranche of ad hoc committees for this Session. The decision will be made by the Liaison Committee, on which the Government have only one member. The noble Lord appealed to the whole House to support his bid. The notion that the Government could stand in the way of the noble Lord’s bid, which I think was implied in some way, implies that my noble friend who sits on the Liaison Committee could go around discouraging people from supporting it—like Henry Fonda in “12 Angry Men”—which is fanciful. However, the noble Lord has launched his manifesto on the Floor of your Lordships’ House and his fate now rests with the Liaison Committee.

Paradise Papers

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The House was abused by the noble Lord, Lord Gadhia, and should be given extra time.

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

We did have extra time—we allowed an extra speaker from the Opposition. I think that it is now time to move on to the next Statement.

Housing: Rental Market

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Thursday 2nd November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. It is not possible for landlords in London to switch rented accommodation wholly over to short-term letting because of the restriction that I mentioned earlier: short-term lettings can only be for up to 90 days. Therefore, it would not be possible legally for a landlord to let his property on a short-term basis throughout the year. One has to get a balance. London has to compete with other tourist destinations and tourists expect to find a range of accommodation through organisations such as the one the noble Lord mentioned. Many London boroughs do not have an adequate supply of hotels, and therefore one needs a supply of short-term letting accommodation. Also, many Londoners, in their efforts to make ends meet, like to rent out their home on a short-term basis when they are not using it themselves.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the Minister wrong in his calculations? You can get more money out of a 90-day B&B than you can get out of a 365-day let.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am not sure that I would sign up for a short-term letting on those sorts of terms, which sound penal. Many landlords would rather have their property occupied throughout the year rather than for up to 90 days and then not used for the rest of the year. The balance we have tried to get in London is to safeguard the stock of long-term accommodation for rent by Londoners with the freedom for Londoners, when they are not using their home themselves, to let it out to other people who want to rent it.

Boundary Reviews 2018

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

We are implementing proposals put on the statute book by the then leader of the noble Lord’s party, who was Deputy Prime Minister. He put on the statute book the legislation implementing the reviews which are currently being delivered.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is the reduction from 650 to 600 still on the cards? Is that going to happen? Has the DUP approved that?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The legislation, which was approved by both Houses of Parliament, reduced the numbers of Members of Parliament from 650 to 600. The review that I referred to in my earlier response postulates boundaries for 600 constituencies.

Electoral Fraud

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 29th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord is quite right. This was one of the problems identified by Sir Eric Pickles in his review; he recommended that there should be a sort of cordon sanitaire around polling stations to prevent the intimidation to which the noble Lord refers. My understanding is that the Electoral Commission has taken that recommendation forward in guidance to stop intimidation in polling stations for the reason that the noble Lord has given.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

Neighbourhood Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Report: 2nd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 28th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Parminter]

My Lords, I sincerely thank the Minister for the consideration that he and the ministerial team have given to the comments and concerns that I raised in Committee. I offer those thanks on behalf of myself and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, who is no longer able to be in her place. In particular, I welcome Amendments 42 and 55, which specifically address the concerns that we had about the impact of the temporary possession proposals on the special land that the National Trust holds for the good of the nation. I am delighted with the way that the Minister has retained the status quo for the National Trust’s inalienable land. I thank him most sincerely.

[Lord Young of Cookham]

I am grateful to all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate, particularly to those who welcomed the amendments tabled by the Government to meet concerns expressed earlier on.

If I may respond briefly to the very important issues raised by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, no one is more anxious than I am to see more houses being built. In view of his interest, he might like to come along on Thursday, when we have a debate on the White Paper, which will be a broader debate about housing. I will make three quick points about the question that he raised. First, Clause 29, the no-scheme principle, makes no fundamental changes to the principle of compensation. It seeks to clarify where we are by looking at past cases and setting out some clear rules, Rules 1 to 5, so that we can, in future, fairly assess the compensation that people are entitled to if they are affected by a CPO.

The second point, which really arises from that, is that we have always paid the market value. For as long as I have been involved in this type of legislation, when somebody’s land or property has been acquired, we have always paid the market value. That is the right thing to do in a fair society; otherwise, one is verging towards confiscation. If you are going to take away something at less than its value from an individual who does not want to part with it, that is approaching what could be called confiscation.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister talks about its value, but its value prior to the planner signing it off and designating it as land for housing is agricultural. That is what it is.

Infrastructure Improvements: Funding

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Wednesday 23rd November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

My noble friend has asked three questions. On building on flood plains, whether planning consent is given for a particular development is a matter for local planning authorities, but my noble friend will be aware of the National Planning Policy Framework, which—I paraphrase—basically discourages development in inappropriate areas and encourages development away from areas at high risk of flooding. On drainage schemes, the Government have committed £2.5 billion of investment between now and 2021, and I believe that the Chancellor announced a further increase in the Autumn Statement a few moments ago. Finally, on private finance, the Environment Agency and local authorities can bid for private finance for schemes that are outwith the public sector scheme and, subject to value for money, they have a good chance of succeeding. There is a new partnering scheme whereby local communities and landowners can bid for funds alongside Defra and make progress with schemes which would not be able to go ahead if they were solely dependent on public finance.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, why should local authorities be held be responsible, as the Minister said, for planning matters in areas that flood, when it is the taxpayer that picks up part of the bill at the end of the day?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The noble Lord may be referring to the introduction of Flood Re, which enables those who previously had difficulty in getting insurance now to get some. I very much hope the noble Lord welcomes that initiative.

High-Cost Credit and Debt Management

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 10th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Young of Cookham]

Of course, the Information Commissioner covers a wide variety of cold callers, whereas this Question is about high-cost credit and debt management solutions. The FCA is currently going through a process of authorising debt management firms and high-cost credit companies, and if they do not meet the high standards of the FCA, they simply will not be allowed to go on carrying out their business. It is not a complete shambles, which I think was what the noble Baroness said. We transferred responsibility from the OFT to the FCA simply because it has a more robust regime for dealing with any misuse of cold calling.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, what measures have the Government been able to take in relation to the calls that come from overseas, which I understand are now the majority?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

If the calls come from overseas, obviously the response that we can take in this country is limited. But if they are calling on behalf of companies based in this country, we can take action because a high-cost credit or debt management company that takes information from a telephone company based overseas has a responsibility to make sure that that overseas company acted in accordance with the code in this country. So we can get at them through the companies based here.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Young of Cookham

Monday 18th April 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, may I ask the Minister a question, if she will listen to what I am saying? Perhaps those with the Minister could indicate to her that I am asking a question. Can we be told why this proposal was brought before Parliament only on the last day in Committee? That is what happened, as I understand it. Members in the House of Commons were not given any notice of this. Why was it introduced on the last day in Committee? Was some pressure being exerted by some group? Was it always in the Government’s mind to introduce such a measure? Was it pressure from local authorities? Where did the pressure come from?

[Lord Young of Cookham (Con)]

My Lords, I shall make a brief intervention in support of the policy of bringing to an end lifetime tenancies. I recognise the powerful points that have been made on behalf of those who suffer from domestic violence, and I hope the Minister will listen carefully to those representations.

It is just worth making the point that this is a prospective policy; it would not apply to existing tenants. I say that because one of the letters I got from a residents’ association in London implied that this was in some way retrospective, taking away security that people have.

The point is that one needs a balance between, on the one hand, those who currently enjoy lifetime tenancies and, on the other, those who are on the waiting list. Throughout this debate, one criticism that has been made of the Government is that we are not building enough secure accommodation for rent for those in housing need, for whom social housing for rent is the only answer. For someone on the waiting list, there are two factors that are of relevance: one is the rate of new build of social housing, and the other is the rate of re-letting. When I last looked at the figures, the number of re-lets each year was 400,000—roughly two-thirds from housing associations, and roughly one-third local authority—whereas the number of new homes built for rent was 50,000. In other words, the re-let market is eight times more important for those on the waiting list—those in housing need—than new build.

The reason why I support ending lifetime tenancies and bringing in fixed-term tenancies is that it promotes a conversation between the local authority and the tenant that may be of interest not only to those on the waiting list but to the current local authority tenant. That conversation will bring to the tenant’s attention a range of options that he or she might not previously have considered. One reason why I have consistently supported the transfer of the discount scheme is to enable those currently in social housing to move out and free up such homes. A re-let secures an immediate solution for someone on the waiting list at a fraction of the cost of new build and within a fraction of the time.

That is why I think that one must look at both sides of the coin: the expectations of those who currently enjoy good social housing and those on the waiting list, who are looking for some movement in social housing to solve their problems. If, at the end of the conversation, there is clearly no other option that is acceptable to the tenant, then of course the tenancy should be renewed—I do not think any local authority will abuse the powers given to it—but it will have promoted a conversation and enabled a range of options to be presented to the tenants, which may increase the number of re-lets, which may in turn help those on the waiting list. That is why I think the time is due for the introduction of such a policy.