Council Tax

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 14th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I very much agree with the noble Earl about the troubled families programme. It is a good programme, as he rightly says. In looking at resources and needs, we are seeking to ensure that across the board there is fairness. That is why it is a fair funding formula. That is something that will be forthcoming in 2020.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Is one of the reasons why council tax is so low in Westminster the fact that it has huge parking revenues gained from people coming into London from all over the country?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises a relevant factor about parking revenues, not simply in Westminster, as it is true in other parts of London and in other cities. It is being considered in the fair funding review, which is the subject of the next Question.

Help to Buy: Housebuilders’ Profits

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 27th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, most of the suppliers of homes under the Help to Buy scheme are small and medium-sized enterprises, although I accept that the larger players are delivering the volume. I agree with the noble Lord about the need for a new homes ombudsman and he will know that, when legislative time allows, we will introduce that. In the meantime, with the Home Builders Federation we are looking at the possibility of a voluntary homes ombudsman, to make sure we have the qualities he and I are keen on and that they are enforced.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that, as of 2021, the scheme will be restricted to only first-time buyers. In those conditions, what will stop first-time buyers being subjected to inflated house prices?

Short-term Lettings

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, Airbnb is the market leader and is doing a good job within London, which is the only place where the 90-day limit applies. Its software ensures that you cannot go over the 90-day limit. As I understand it, to qualify as a business, you have to let for a minimum of 120 days, so that could not apply within London, but it could elsewhere, depending on the facts. I am not an expert in that area, but I do not think that it could apply in London because of that simple statistic.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, will Ministers send a guidance note out to local authorities to advise them to adopt the Newham scheme, which I have raised on a number of occasions in this House, for the way that landlords should be treated when they are in default?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that I have previously referenced the guide that has been developed with Westminster, which the Short Term Accommodation Association wants to roll out. In fact, there are two guides: one is for landlords, which is currently being used in Westminster and it is intended should be used elsewhere; the other is for managers of blocks, and that would apply generally to residences in central London. There are therefore two codes of conduct that are central to what the accreditation body—or what we hope will become the accreditation body—is doing.

UK Shared Prosperity Fund

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 4th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I will make two points. First, I referred to inequalities in communities because that was in the Written Statement on the UK single prosperity fund made by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government in July; it was restated by the Prime Minister, and in looking at that consultation we have talked about the importance of people, infrastructure, business, environment, ideas and place. The noble Lord referred to the fairer funding formula but did not do so totally fairly, if I may say so. He will be aware that deprivation is recognised as a key factor in many areas, such as health.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, to come back to the question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford, can we have the position made absolutely clear, that the money that was being talked about over the weekend is not in any way conditional upon support for the Government in the House of Commons? Can that be made absolutely clear at this Dispatch Box?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I will make two points. The first is a relatively minor one, but lest the Order Paper appear strange, the noble Lord, Lord Thomas, did not table the Question but was cited in another question. In relation to the content of the letter that was read out, I am sure that the noble Lord is right legally. I say simply that the context of this consultation, when it happens shortly, is about ensuring that we address inequalities between communities. That is the essence of what we are looking at.

Combustible Cladding

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness makes a valuable point. I will write to her on its specifics. Suffice it to say that other government departments, of which the Ministry of Defence is one—the department of health is another—take these issues very seriously and are providing financial assistance. I will make sure that she gets a detailed reply, a copy of which will be placed in the Library.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I listened very carefully to the Answer to the Question. Have all blocks in the private sector been identified nationally? Is there a list? Do any of them form part of that second group of 69, which the Minister said were referred to local authorities for support?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I indicated, all the buildings have been identified. The 69 buildings I referred to are private ones. The statutory position is that the ultimate responsibility for ensuring that their cladding comes off rests with local authorities, but the Secretary of State made it clear that finance will not stand in the way of that and we will provide financial assistance if needed.

Provisional Local Government Finance Settlement

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 13th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I acknowledge the great role that the noble Lord plays in his local authority district in Pendle and I recognise the great work done by local districts up and down the country. He will appreciate, however, that there are a lot of areas that are unitary, where there is not this two-tier system. A lot of what I have talked about, in answering questions and in the Statement itself, relates to the county councils, but much of this will benefit the district councils, where they exist, such as the business rate retention system. Again, Lancashire is a beneficiary of this and it is worth recognising that as well. I recognise the challenges that exist and I know that many local authorities struggle with the financial position. That said, we need to see how costs may be contained and where some back-office costs can be shared. That need not necessarily be via unitisation; it could be done by sharing some of the costs and back-office functions.

I should also say, on the multi-year settlements that the noble Lord referred to, that many councils—perhaps most councils, most councillors and most people offering services—would recognise their importance and desirability, because it gives a guarantee of how payments and settlements will be made into the future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, despite what the Minister said, there must be a connection between internet sales, tax raising and commercial rates. Will the Minister explain what is going on in that area? Who is involved in this work? Is it the Treasury or is it his department assessing what can be done with internet sales, because of the implications for local government finance? Are hearings planned? Are vast numbers of civil servants involved? Is a process of consultation going on? This is an extremely important area and we should be told a lot more about what is a subject of conversation all over the country. People are worried about the high street and they think that internet sales should be paying more. It would be interesting to know what is going on.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I do not disagree with the noble Lord on the importance of the task, but I disagree with him about the forum. This is a Treasury issue. I will write to him, and copy the letter to other noble Lords, to give as much detail as I can on what is happening, but this is a broader issue. I do not disagree with him about the interaction between commercial rates in the high street and the issue about digital and online taxation, but I stress the point I made earlier: there is a movement away from the high street and noble Lords will be aware of that. I am sure we have all used digital services. Yes, there is an issue of fairness and an issue about where the taxation should lie, but I think that gives the answer to the noble Lord that it is the Treasury that is leading on that. I will certainly write to him with more details.

Housing: Shared Ownership

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 6th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, we value shared ownership very much. That is why we are looking at it in the private context as well as the social one, where it was focused previously. As I have indicated, Help to Buy has been extended for a further two years. It is very easy for those in this House, most, if not all, of whom will own their own homes, but we should recognise that this is an aspiration for a lot of people and that is exactly what the Government have done.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, does the route to affordable homes consultation—which I think the noble Lord was referring to—include looking at the price of land, which is at the heart of the problem?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, a consultation on the social housing Green Paper, with which the noble Lord will be familiar, has closed today. On shared ownership, we have announced a consultation that will look at private shared ownership and how we can encourage that. Necessarily, one of the matters it will look at is the price of land.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

But when land in the London area, or outside London, costs anything from £3 million to £5 million an acre, and could previously have been purchased for perhaps £20,000 or £30,000 an acre as agricultural land, is there not a real problem that has to be sorted out before we can resolve this difficulty?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is right in seeking to identify the problem; what we do about it is another issue. But we are looking at issues around land value, such as compulsory purchase. These are part of the mix, but if it were a simple problem, it would have been solved by Governments long ago.

Private Rented Sector Licensing Schemes

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 16th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is right that there is an issue, but it is partly addressed through selective licensing and through mandatory licensing, which, as I said, we extended on 1 October this year. There are other powers, such as the rogue landlords register, which, as I said previously, we hope to extend so that it is open to members of the public as well. We are taking action, but I do not want to belittle the problem that my noble friend rightly refers to.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, what lessons have the Government learned from the licensing scheme operated in the London Borough of Newham?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the scheme operated in the London Borough of Newham is very effective, as many of them are. We have studied it closely and give support to it. As I said, we are certainly not against selective licensing—we very much approve of it being used. It can be used under the 20% threshold by local authorities just proceeding with it. Where there is the 20% threshold, we will scrutinise the scheme to ensure that there has been a proper process and consultation. From memory, I think that Newham is below the 20% threshold, but it is a very good scheme.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, unless I am mistaken, my noble friend is referring to a specific issue that relates to the Short Term Accommodation Association, as in her Written Questions. The Government certainly have not changed their position on that. We are working with the Short Term Accommodation Association to seek to provide answers to any problems that exist and I am confident that it is addressing those issues.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, if the Newham scheme is so good and so successful, why are the Government not asking other authorities to consider it in detail and to adopt it?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord brings forward a point that no doubt the selective licensing review committee, which has just started its work, will want to address. Selective licensing schemes can look at six different areas of activity, including where there are poor conditions or challenges due to deprivation in the borough, and that is what Newham is doing. The review committee will look at and report on these matters. The Government will of course want to study that in detail and share it with Members of the House and the other place to consider the best way forward.

Housing: Short-Term Lets

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 19th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for what he does in this area and more widely on homelessness and housing issues. I am not quite sure what he is getting at when he says that the European Commission has drawn attention to Airbnb being in breach of a particular provision. If it is, I am sure it will face the full rigour of European law in so far as it would apply. I am convinced that Airbnb is acting totally within our laws, as are other short-term accommodation providers. We are trying to ensure that they can share information; as I say, that is an issue relating to the Data Protection Act. If they are unable to do that and if the lawyers cannot crack the problem, we would have to look at the necessity of amending the law. From what I hear, I believe we will not need to do that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the remit of the Law Commission is to ensure that the law is fair. It has just done some excellent work on leasehold reform. Is there not a remit for it here? Could it not intervene in some way to examine the extent to which planning law is working?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I absolutely agree that the Law Commission does excellent work, as the noble Lord informed us. Being independent, it comes up with its own programme and the Government react accordingly. If the Law Commission feels that there is a job to be done here, we will await its work in this area.

Rating (Property in Common Occupation) and Council Tax (Empty Dwellings) Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

3rd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 18th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on this amendment. If I may, I will deal with the contributions in the order in which they were made, and turn first to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. I understand where he is coming from on this, but the essential point, as was just made by my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern, is that the premium is payable on the value of the property and not on the circumstances of the person or persons who happen to be there at the time. I can provide him with the precise provision that makes this absolutely clear.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

We are talking here about an incidence of empty properties which may well increase in times of a depression in property prices. In parts of the country now, property prices are collapsing. The danger is that people will go into negative equity in the event that they are driven into selling because they are faced with what might appear to be extremely high increases in their council tax where they have been living as a single person in a property. I understand what the noble Lord said about the rateable value but I wonder whether it might be possible to detach from that formula and move to the actual sum payable, which is what really affects the council tax payer more than anything else.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I understand the point that the noble Lord is making but, if he will forgive me for saying so, it is a somewhat different point. I will come on to the hardship issues and the guidance, because hardship could attach to a couple or to a family as much as to a single person. The premium is payable in relation to the rateable value of the property and not the circumstances of the person who was last there. For example, it could be that a single person dies and then a family inherits the property, and so it would be complicated if it were otherwise. It also applies the council tax in the relevant year, and I fully concede that it is more likely to go up than go down. However, it is conceivable that it could go down and, if that happens, that is just the way it is, if the noble Lord will forgive me for saying so.

As I think I said in relation to the point raised by the noble Earl, the guidance we issue will be subject to full consultation and will take care of hardship cases. Hardship is a circumstance that I am very keen we address in the guidance, which will be open to full public consultation for anyone who wants to participate. Ultimately—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Forgive me, but I will just finish this point and then give way briefly to the noble Lord. Ultimately, this is a matter for the discretion of the local authority. We have been very keen to ensure that that is the case, as the local authority will know of the hardship more than anybody else in the local area.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On exactly that point, according to the statistics that the noble Lord gave the House when we last considered the matter, 90% of local authorities are now choosing this option. It may well be that local authorities feel under pressure, irrespective of the hardship criteria that the Minister may lay down in the guidelines. That is why I want something a little firmer. They are taking the money because it is available, and 90% is the noble Lord’s own figure.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

If the noble Lord looks at what I said, I also said that they are exercising their discretion, and there is evidence of that, too. This is not a revenue-raising measure, as is borne out by the statistics. It is very much to deal with the specific case of blight on the local landscape and, as the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, said, freeing up homes. That is what is behind this. There is not a great incidence of cases, as the figures will bear out, but it makes a real difference in communities up and down the country.

As the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, this is something best left to the local authority. I am grateful for having my powers exaggerated but I cannot enumerate in a list what they may be. They are things for the local authority to look at. We will approach the guidance in such a way that we can give clear indications of the sort of factors that local authorities will want to bear in mind. Once again, it is important that we give the local authorities that discretion and trust them in the exercise of that locally. I stress that this will be subject to full consultation.

I am very grateful to the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, who first came up with this escalator amendment and for the work we have done on this together and, indeed, across parties, with the Labour Party as well. We have come to a very happy conclusion on this. As I say, the review of the guidance is the next stage in this process, and I expect us all to engage in that together as well. I am very grateful for the contribution of my noble and learned friend Lord Mackay of Clashfern on compulsory purchase. There are compulsory purchase powers in relation to planning blight. They might not cover every conceivable instance that the noble Earl was thinking of, but that certainly would be part of the solution to that quandary. I am very grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, as always, for being supportive and constructive in contributions as we have developed this escalator amendment. It has been a very useful exercise and we have, as is appreciated in government, come up with something that has improved the Bill before us, so I am very grateful for that. With that, I beg to move this amendment.

High Street Retailers

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 4th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is following up on a point that has been made. As I said, there is provision in our manifesto that we will review this area, and the Treasury is looking at this area on an international basis. Indeed, we are leading the charge because, as the noble Lord will be aware, a lot of that trading is done internationally and we need to ensure that there is the level playing field of which he spoke.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not true that many commercial landlords are pushing up rents, particularly of shops, because they are taking advantage of the business rate relief scheme, which exempts businesses with a rateable value of under £12,000 a year from paying business rates? They are simply taking away what the public sector would otherwise gain.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I would appeal to the noble Lord that, if he has evidence of that, I would be happy to look at it. He is right that we introduced business rate relief on a more pervasive basis after the revaluation so that most small businesses are not paying business rates at all, but my department would be interested to see the evidence to which the noble Lord alluded, if he has it.

Short-Term Holiday Lets

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 19th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, laws on crimes are enforceable in the normal way. I am not sure what the noble Baroness is referring to. As I say, there are avenues for enforcing agreements and planning controls which local authorities can enforce. The Short Term Accommodation Association is making great strides and I would encourage her to meet up with it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, short-term holiday lets, including Airbnb, can now be classified as business premises. Under the small business rates relief scheme, if the rateable value is under £12,000 a small business pays neither business rates nor council tax—effectively it pays no tax—a system that can be abused. How many properties fall under this category and what is the cost to the public purse of this concession?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, there is no specific Airbnb concession nor one for Short Term Accommodation Association members. They have to pay tax in the normal way, just as the noble Lord and I have to do, and if they are not paying tax that is illegal. However, in defence of Airbnb, it is operating within the law. In London it cannot go further than 90 days. It is prohibited from doing that by the system which it has introduced, which I have seen.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend will be aware that such action would almost certainly be a breach of the tenancy agreement and, once again, it would be for the relevant landlord, be it the local authority or a housing association, to ensure that the rigour of the law is applied.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, in the question that I asked I made a statement about the position of short-term lets and the payment of business rates. Is the Minister suggesting that I am wrong? If he is doing that, I think he should check his facts.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, far be it from me to suggest that the noble Lord is ever wrong. If business rates apply in a particular situation, they should be paid, but if they do not apply, they should not. It is as simple as that.

Grenfell Tower

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 11th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am very grateful to the noble Baroness for those points, and I am sure that the whole House would want me to thank, through her, her daughter for the assistance that she offered. I reiterate what I said on Grenfell United and its work, as well as that of the entire community.

In relation to 14 June this year, the community has wanted it recognised in a low-key way, if I can put it like that. We want to talk to the community about how they feel it is best remembered one year on. That is important. I shall certainly take away ideas brought forward by the noble Baroness to ensure that we do not forget about fire safety and the lessons learned. Perhaps in the same spirit, in terms of the future of Grenfell Tower itself, it is important for the community to lead on what happens in years to come. I am sure that it will regard this as something we never want to forget, and nor should we.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I welcome the Minister saying that action in the case of the private sector had not been ruled out. That should send a very important signal to the private sector that there needs to be action.

In the Statement I think I heard the Minister say that he thought the local authority had identified all the private property. If that is the case, surely the electorates in the area—the people who live in areas where these blocks exist—are entitled to know where those blocks are located whether they are in the public or private sector. My first question is whether that information will be made available to the general public.

Finally, there are a number of hotels nationally that are covered with what looks like the material we are talking about, but we simply do not know. What is happening in the case of those hotels with this material?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for his comments, particularly his recognition that the Secretary of State is determined about remedial measures for private sector buildings. The position is that local authorities have powers to identify through one of the Housing Acts—I forget which one—the properties concerned in relation to cladding. In many cases, information is being made available through local authorities, using their powers. I think I am right, and will correct it in the letter if I am wrong, that we have had confirmation from all the local authorities that that work has been done.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To whom are they making this information available?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

They are making the information available to the department. This brings me to the point that the noble Lord was pursuing as to whether we will make that information public. We have to consider whether that would be helpful in addressing the work we need to do, based on safety considerations, discussions with the fire services, and so on. Considerations of safety are paramount here; we do not want to cause concern for the people in the blocks involved by issuing public information in that way. Again, I will cover that in the letter if I may.

In relation to hotels, any buildings with this cladding and above the requisite height are brought within our consideration, whether they are in the private or public sector, whether they are housing, hospitals, and so on, as was referred to earlier. This job of work has to be done with every building that is above the requisite height and has the combustible ACM cladding that was identified at Grenfell.

Rating (Property in Common Occupation) and Council Tax (Empty Dwellings) Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 4th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in the gap I want to embroider a comment made by the noble Earl, Lord Lytton. As I understand it, since 2013 local authorities in England have had the power to charge a council tax premium of up to 50% on long-term empty dwellings—that is, homes which have been unoccupied and substantially unfurnished for two years or more. This premium is in addition to the usual council tax charges applied to such a property.

I want to go to the mathematics of this. If the council tax is £1,500, at the moment the charge would be £2,250 if the local authority took the option up. If the charge was at 100%, it would be £3,000 and if it was at 200% it would be £4,500, so we would be talking about the tripling of council tax on a property—from £1,500 to £4,500. I wonder whether the Government have thought through the consequences of that.

Many home owners, or people who own property, will think, “I’m not going to pay £4,500 whereas at the moment I’m paying £2,250”—if it has been declared, because obviously, local authorities will be quite diligent in gathering this revenue—“I’ll turn my property into a second home. All I have to do is meet the term ‘substantially unfurnished’”, which two Members of this House have asked to be qualified. Is there not a danger that a very large number of people owning property that is empty will say, “My property is no longer unoccupied; it is a second home property”? They have a real incentive because the full council tax payment at the moment is going to be tripled. I see the Minister is shaking his head. I asked one of my colleagues on this side of the House, and he agreed with me that it would be tripled. That is how the mathematics work out because of the word “premium”. It is a premium over and above the existing council tax rate, so 200% takes us from £1,500 to £4,500. I am perfectly prepared to be corrected.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is right that it is a premium but it is a 100% premium, not 200%.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I think that should be clarified because that is the way it is going to be read outside the House. Anyone listening to the debate, given the reference to 200%, would think that it was going to be tripled. If the consequence is property being turned over to second homes, does that not mean that local authorities need clarification as to what “substantially unfurnished” means in law? Otherwise, there may well be a major shift of property from unoccupied to second homes.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the Second Reading debate on this important, though short and focused, Bill. It seems to me, hearing the productive and helpful speeches from noble Lords around the House, that it has strong support. In so far as there was criticism—there was a little bit—this focused on the things that the Bill does not do. There are an awful lot of things that it does not do, because it is a very short, focused Bill. As the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, rightly said, it is essentially a three-clause Bill.

I will deal with contributions from noble Lords in the order in which they were made. I will follow up the debate with a letter on points which I have missed—I am sure that there will be some—and where there are things where I do not have the answer to hand. There are some things which we will probably want to develop in Committee and thereafter.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, for her contribution. I agree that there are some council areas where this will not make any difference to current practice. I bow to her superior knowledge of Kirklees which, based on what she said, is one of those areas. In general terms, there will be many councils in the north of England, though not all of them by any means, that will not see any difference from this and will not want to proceed from a 50% premium to a 100% one. That is a matter for them; this gives discretion. Similarly, there will be many councils in the south of England that do want to use it, but by no means all. This is patchy; there will be parts of southern England where this will not be helpful, just as there will be parts of northern England where it is.

The noble Baroness and other noble Lords referred to the issue of the high street and online businesses. She and others will know, from previous contributions, that the Government are looking at this. Had we sought to bring it into this legislation, it would have made the Bill much later arriving because we would have had to do consultation and so on. This Bill is focused and we want an immediate change. So far as I can gauge, the House is very supportive of that, for which I am grateful.

To clarify a point on which there was some confusion, we are talking about an increase in a premium of 50% to 100%, based on a 100% charge already—it takes it to 200%, not 300%.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I got my maths wrong—it was based on an amendment, which I thought had been carried in the Commons but was not. However, the principle still stands on the switch to second homes.

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[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for his disarming contribution. I fully accept that various figures have been bandied about.

The noble Baroness and other noble Lords asked for information on the definition of “empty home” and “substantially unfurnished”. I will ensure that that is covered in the write-round letter, but the Bill does not alter that—it leaves it as it was. There will be substantial case law on those issues which will have an impact in this area, but it is not changed by this legislation.

I thank my noble friend Lord Patten for his contribution. He is absolutely right that this legislation did command all-party support in the Commons, where no amendment was moved, let alone made to it. He is absolutely right that this is a work in progress. We have got the figure down over six months from 300,000-plus empty dwellings to about 210,000. There is much work to be done. If we can squeeze it further and get more out of that, it would mean additional homes for people: this is the pot of gold. I am not suggesting that this is a silver bullet, but it makes a significant contribution. We can do much better than a 200,000 target. I think we are looking at something like 100,000, but I will cover that in the write-round letter.

My noble friend referred to the possibility of an escalator, depending on how long a property was vacant. Other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, also touched on that, and I have no doubt that we will be coming back to it. I am also grateful to my noble friend for his general encouragement.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, for his kind comments about our meetings on broader issues to do with valuation and the valuation office. I reassure him that I also have a meeting coming up with my honourable friend Rishi Sunak to talk to the valuation office about some of those broader issues. He is absolutely right when he referred to the decision in Woolway v Mazars as an aberration—that is how everybody has regarded it. All political parties and all the relevant bodies and practitioners in this area have regarded the decision as an aberration. Against that background, we would say that we have indicated that we will reverse this decision.

On shedloads of money, I do not think that anybody has referred to that. I have been very much at pains to say that a small number are affected, and again, in the write-round letter I will try to address how we can look at the numbers affected. However, we are not looking at shedloads of money, and it will be fairly evenly spread around the country. The noble Baroness, Lady Pinnock, suggested that they might all be in the same constituency. I would be a little surprised if that were the case, but in any case, we will look at that to provide some reassurance on the issue.

On the point the noble Earl made about cowboys, I very much look forward to joining a posse with him to see how we can deal with that issue, and I am sure that that will be subject to discussion. I come back to the point that this is not a silver bullet but that it will make a difference, which is what we are seeking to do here.

I turn to the noble Baroness, Lady Thornhill, with her experience of Watford and of leading that council. I take seriously what she says, and she was generally supportive of what we are trying to do. She suggested a suite of fiscal measures which, again, I will try to deal with in the write-round. Again, as she will know, that would involve much more engagement with the Treasury and much more consultation. It is therefore well beyond this piece of legislation, as I have no doubt she appreciates, but nevertheless, based on her experience, I take very seriously what she said. In particular, when we all go canvassing, we always come across an example that is very much live in one’s mind. I note what she said about the six years’ probate issue—the Jarndyce v Jarndyce of Watford. We will see whether we can say something in the write-round about how that probate operation works.

I thank the noble Earl, Lord Listowel, very much for his support and his kind words. He reminded us of the late-lamented Lady Farrington and all the work she did in this area. It was indeed considerable and we miss her contributions, as we miss her. I thank him very much for what he said about the importance of noting the impact this will have on families and children, the wider issue of local authority funding of children’s services, and the difference between statutory and non-statutory—which again, I take seriously, and which I will take back.

As always, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, comes forward with something incisive about the issue of second homes and the definitions of “substantially furnished” and “empty” properties. As I say, I will seek to cover those in the letter; although it is unaffected by the legislation, it is nevertheless an important issue. On that issue of interaction with second homes, we are not seeking to deal with second homes here. This is somewhat different; indeed, this could be about a building owned by an institution, and essentially, it might not be anybody’s home at all, although empty. In the Commons, my honourable friend Rishi Sunak said that we would make a Statement on the second homes situation, because there is an issue with people using empty homes as something of a tax loophole, so we will want to say something about our future intentions. I hope to say something about that no later than Committee, but it will not affect this legislation. It is the subject of a much broader issue about second homes and how we deal with that issue.

As always, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, very much for his helpful comments and his indication that this is—to use his words—the right sense of direction. He referred to the question of judgment here about what is the right level of premium. Some people suggested a 300% premium, or I think they did, which would make a 400% charge, as it were, which would be significant. The noble Lord was much more modest in his contribution with regard to what we are looking at here. Again, I am sure that that is something that we will engage in as we go forward to Committee and beyond.

The noble Lord asked for a breakdown of the reduction of approximately 90,000 empty homes in the six-month figure. He will not be surprised to hear that I do not have the figures to hand, but I will seek to provide further information to noble Lords on those issues ahead of Committee.

There was also a question about empty dwelling management orders, which I have no doubt we will also be discussing in Committee.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, very much for his supportive comments and for raising the important question of how these measures will operate. He also talked about what the Bill does not do and about the need to get the level of premium absolutely right—I understand that—as well as the effect of Mazars. As I said, I am sure we will want to come back to those matters in Committee.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may raise with the Minister a concern that I have. We are entering a very difficult market in some parts of the country. What will happen when a property has not been sold after two years? If the owner of the property is driven into selling it, they may well end up in negative equity. It might be better for them to retain the property and avoid a substantial loss. Has that sort of problem been thought through in deciding on all this?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord for a very helpful intervention. One exemption which currently applies with regard to the 50% premium and will apply similarly with the 100% premium is that a local council does not need to apply the premium to people who are seeking to sell their property. There is considerable discretion as to how local councils can apply the premium, and obviously circumstances will differ from area to area. Therefore, I think that the noble Lord will find that that has been taken account of.

With that, I am very grateful to noble Lords for their contributions.

Tower Blocks: Dangerous Cladding

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 21st May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is it possible for a private landlord simply to refuse to carry out remedial work or to remove the cover? If the private landlord was to do that, knowing that the material was dangerous, what would be the position of the Government?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, raises a very interesting point on the powers that exist in relation to local authorities and private landlords, which are considerable under the Housing Act, as he will appreciate. I do not think we have come up against that particular position. There might also be a fallback in common law on particular powers if that were to be the case. But we anticipate—and obviously we will be looking at how the round tables go; the early evidence is there—that landlords are stepping forward with interim measures and doing what they can. But we want to understand the position in the round by speaking to both the landlords and the leaseholders to see exactly how this plays out. My right honourable friend the Secretary of State has indicated that he will issue a review in July of how things are proceeding. I am sure that that will include the points that the noble Lord has quite rightly raised.

National Planning Policy Framework

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 6th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend. To deal with that last issue first, new towns are central to our delivery of additional housing. I know he has taken a particular interest in this issue so he will be aware of the progress referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, on Ebbsfleet, which is ongoing. He will know that we are committed to new towns and new villages in the corridor between Oxford and Cambridge, which he is particularly interested in. Within the foreseeable future we are talking about not just expanded towns such as Bicester, but at least five additional new towns as part of that delivery.

He referred to rogue landlords. We are doing work on that issue, as he will know, and some of the provisions of the Housing and Planning Act concerning registers of rogue landlords will be coming into force shortly, in April. Those who suffer at their hands will be comforted by that—I know it is an issue. Also, local authorities can levy civil fines on rogue landlords of up to £30,000.

The noble Lord referred to the importance of diversity of delivery, and to help for those who want to purchase their homes. That is important but we are committed to diversity. It is not just about buying a home of your own; many people do not want that but want to rent. We need—

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

If I may just finish—it is good to know that this subject has excited so much interest—it is important that we recognise that there is diversity of supply, and that is central to what we are seeking to do.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, there are no real initiatives on the cost of land but we know that agricultural land fetching £15,000 to £20,000 an acre sells with planning permission for £2 million to £4 million an acre, making huge profits for landowners. Why are the Government not taking action on these excessive profits?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that question because we are indeed taking action. The review of developers’ contributions, which is open until 10 May, is very much looking at the issue. In addition, of course, the housing formula policy in relation to building authorities should build the price down in the areas of the greatest expense. This is very much about all parts of the housing issue, including developers, playing their part. That is why we have this review—it is about ensuring that developers contribute fairly in relation to the prices they are getting for land and the sales they make.

Private Rented Housing: Electrical Safety Checks

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is probably aware that the consultation is on just that basis. The working party did not recommend mandatory checks but that this was best practice. That is one of the things that we are testing in this consultation, but it is certainly covered in the review.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister keeps using the word “volunteer”. Who are the people on this working party who keep talking about a volunteering approach? What are they trying to protect? Do they have commercial interests that they think are going to be damaged in the event of it being mandatory?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, no, I do not think that is an appropriate conclusion at all. There is a balance of people on the working party: some are from tenants’ organisations, some have a landlord background. It a very balanced review. What is suggested in the review is that this could be taken forward as best practice—so a voluntary approach to that extent. That is something that will be tested in the broader consultation that we are now undertaking.

Grenfell Tower: Insulation Materials

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 5th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord raises various material points which I shall try to deal with. First, I restate that nothing in the system of testing done in relation to Grenfell is faulty. The Grenfell testing is not in question from the Celotex test.

The noble Lord raises an issue about the 299 tests that failed. He is absolutely right about that figure; it is the ministry figure. These are failed tests following the Grenfell fire in June last year, and we are in the process of ensuring that all are remedied. Some are on local authority buildings, some are public buildings, some are student residences, some of them are in private hands, but on all of them either interim measures have been taken or the process has been completed. That process was put in place post Grenfell and, as I said, there is no question but that appropriate action is now being taken in relation to those 299 failures of the 312 tests undertaken.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the simple truth that there are many tenants in private, publicly owned and social-housing blocks of flats nationally who are completely unaware whether their flats or the blocks that they live in are a fire risk? With that in mind, would it not be wise to introduce a simple and cheap initiative? That would be for all freehold landlords of all blocks in the United Kingdom, whether they be social landlord, private or whatever, to place in a public place in the entrance to those blocks a sign on the wall which specified the cladding of that particular block. That information in the hands of tenants would be a powerful weapon for them to use when they sought improvements to the standards of insulation of their block.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord is right that many different blocks have been tested and found wanting in this process. I just referred to the 299 that have failed and I have the breakdown here: 45 in local authority hands, 115 housing association, 13 public buildings, 95 private residential and 31 student residences. They are going through the process of ensuring that appropriate measures are put in place.

Meanwhile, the Hackitt review is looking at the area much more widely. In response to the disaster that we had at Grenfell, it was felt appropriate to have a thoroughgoing review of fire safety measures; I agree. We are already acting on the interim report. We are now awaiting the final report, which will come up with recommendations which we will pursue once they are made. That is expected in the late spring. There is also a public inquiry.

There are many aspects to this, but in relation specifically to the Grenfell-type of cladding, we put in process a system of testing that goes across all sectors, public and private, and I do not think we could really be expected to do more.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Baroness has a degree of expertise which I do not profess. If I may, I will pick up her specific question, but I think it is appropriate to say that it was the system that was tested, not just the cladding. I will write more fully to her and ensure that my letter is copied to other noble Lords who have participated.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the noble Lord did not answer my question. I am interested in the position of the tenants. The tenants do not realise what is happening. I suggest empowering the tenants by giving them the knowledge so that they can put pressure on the landlord, whoever it is. Will the Minister answer my specific question, which is about the rights of tenants?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I take the specific point that the noble Lord makes. It is not so much that something is happening; it is ensuring that that is percolated down, as it were. It is a fair and material point; I apologise for not seeing it earlier. I will make sure that that is put in front and drawn to the attention of the Hackitt review.

Housing and Planning Act 2016 (Banning Order Offences) Regulations 2017

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, a number of us spoke at some length on this matter when we were dealing in 2015 with what became the Housing and Planning Act 2016. This offers us the opportunity for a further canter around the course. I shall speak briefly because in principle, like most of the House, I support the regulations. I am trying to work out how effective they will be. One stat which would be helpful would be to know to what extent local authorities have, let us say, over the past 12 months or couple of years, prosecuted landlords with the offences defined in the regulations, because they already have the power to prosecute, which brings me to my second point. If they have that power to prosecute, and they do not do so—for all sorts of reasons, which I shall come to in a moment—the chances of them using a banning order are substantially reduced. The prosecution comes first, and the banning order comes second. I stand to be corrected if I am wrong. It is absolutely dependent on whether local authorities are prepared to prosecute.

Let us take a specific example. Slough is a town notorious for the number of sheds in gardens, most of which are there illegally. The local authority is in difficulty. I presume it knows that it could say to the shed owner, “Close the shed because you are in breach of the law”. On the other hand the local authority may say, “We want to ban that particular landlord”, but it is not prepared to do so because by prosecuting him it will create a homeless situation and it will have to step in and rehouse the family concerned. I am arguing that there may well be a hesitation within local authorities to prosecute and introduce banning orders in the knowledge that they may have to take on responsibility for the tenants. That might apply equally to unfit, overcrowded housing, which is covered under a contravention of overcrowding notice, or fire and gas safety standards offences. The local authority would have to have all that in mind if it decided to prosecute and get a banning order.

If one is dependent on the other and there is a hesitation to prosecute, to what extent will that influence the preparedness of a local authority to introduce the banning order? Unless there is housing into which to place people, or the local authority is prepared to take on the property, which in itself means expenditure because it has been through the legal process, the measure being introduced here might well not work in the way Ministers intend. What we need is more houses: more houses to rent and more houses at a sensible price. That would ease the whole process whereby local authorities would feel freer to proceed and close down property, with the obvious implication for rehousing families.

What stats do we have on the preparedness of local authorities to prosecute and place landlords in a position whereby ultimately, under these regulations, they will be subject to banning orders?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on these regulations and I will do my best to deal with the various points in the order in which they were made.

First, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Jones, for his kind words. Wales does indeed have provisions; they are not identical to these. I will write to noble Lords who have participated, covering the issues raised, and I will endeavour to give the noble Lord full details. He will know that in a devolved context, things are slightly different but there is legislation there and, I believe, in Scotland as well, which I will also seek to cover.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Grender, for her general welcome for these regulations. She made points about transparency, which were echoed elsewhere. The noble Lords, Lord Beecham and Lord Shipley, talked about the regulations being cast in a way that would mean tenants could look at potential landlords to find out the position by having a register that is open to the public. Noble Lords will appreciate that that is not possible under the main legislation, which was discussed and passed. The Housing and Planning Act 2016 does not permit that. This is a register for local authorities to use. It is not a ministry of housing—to use our new title—register; it will be a national register for local authorities which will contain these details. In addition—although I am not an expert in this area of the law—there are considerations under the Data Protection Act as to what can be disclosed in such situations. Again, I will endeavour to give chapter and verse on that when I respond in more detail.

Secure Tenancies (Victims of Domestic Abuse) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 9th January 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)]

My Lords, I am delighted to be moving the Second Reading today. Domestic abuse is a devastating issue which has serious impacts on the victim, the victim’s family and, indeed, society as a whole. According to the crime survey, each year an estimated 1.9 million people in England and Wales suffer some form of domestic abuse. Not only does domestic abuse often place the victim in immediate physical danger; its emotional effect can create damaging, long-term impacts on the victims and their families, and place huge costs on society and the public purse. This short, targeted Bill is an important part of the Government’s wider aim of supporting victims of domestic abuse to leave their abusive situation, and ensuring that they and their families are provided with the stability and security they need and deserve.

The Bill will ensure that if victims of domestic abuse who have a lifetime social tenancy need to flee their current home to escape abuse and are granted a new tenancy, they are able to retain their lifetime tenancy in their new social home. The Bill achieves this by requiring local authorities to offer a further lifetime tenancy to existing lifetime tenants where the tenant needs to move or has recently moved to escape domestic abuse, and the local authority is satisfied that granting the new tenancy will reduce the risk of further abuse. This will apply not only to situations where the tenant themselves is a victim of domestic abuse but also where a member of their household, such as a child, has suffered domestic abuse.

The Bill applies to all local authorities in England and protects all lifetime social tenants in these circumstances, whether they have a secure local authority tenancy or an assured tenancy with a private registered provider of social housing. It will apply not only to situations where the tenant is a victim of domestic abuse but also where a member of the household, such as a child, has suffered domestic abuse.

The definition of domestic abuse in the Bill has been drawn widely, so it will apply not just to those who have suffered physical violence but also to victims of psychological, sexual, financial and emotional abuse, as provided by Clause 1(2).

The Bill delivers on a commitment that the Government made to this House during the passage of the Housing and Planning Act 2016. We gave a commitment that when local authorities moved to fixed-term tenancies in the future we would ensure that the regulations which specify when local authorities may grant a further lifetime tenancy would make this mandatory for victims of domestic abuse. The noble Baroness, Lady Lister of Burtersett, raised this issue—I am pleased to see her in her place—and I acknowledge her part in ensuring that we have come through with this legislation. It has been a pleasure dealing with the noble Baroness in that regard.

Primary legislation is necessary to deliver on this commitment. To be clear, the Bill does not create a new requirement for local authorities to rehouse lifetime tenants who are victims of domestic abuse, but it ensures that where a lifetime tenant is rehoused in these circumstances they do not lose their security of tenure. This is about removing an impediment that could prevent victims from leaving their abusive situation.

The Government are absolutely committed to supporting victims of domestic abuse—it is a high priority for the Prime Minister. That is why we have secured £40 million of dedicated funding in the spending review and invested £33.5 million since 2014 to support victims of domestic abuse. However, we want to go further and are carrying out a fundamental review of the commissioning and funding of domestic abuse services, which will conclude in the summer of this year. I look forward to updating noble Lords on the review’s progress.

The most recent lettings data show that from April 2015 to March 2016 about 1.6% of all social lettings were to existing tenants who moved to another social home to escape domestic abuse. While the numbers are relatively small, this is still more than 5,000 lives affected by domestic abuse and it is important that they are provided with the support they need to leave their abusive situation. The measures in the Bill will do precisely this and ensure that we do not create a barrier—

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

What happens in the case of the abuser? In such circumstances, are the rights of the abuser—who may well end up being a single person—in no way affected by this legislation?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the aim of this legislation is certainly not to do anything in relation to the abusing party; it is to protect the abused party. It is about the protection of the victim rather than doing anything in relation to the perpetrator.

The measures in the Bill will provide that protection and ensure that we do not create a barrier to victims of domestic abuse who are considering leaving their abusive situation by protecting the security of tenure of those who move to a new social home.

We recognise that there will be other circumstances in which it might be appropriate for local authorities to continue to offer lifetime tenancies at their discretion. We will set out those circumstances in regulations that we are currently developing. These regulations are affirmative and noble Lords will have the opportunity to debate them when they are laid.

I repeat that this is a targeted and short Bill. It was a hard-won opportunity for a specific situation. I look forward to hearing noble Lords’ comments and views on the Bill, and I beg to move.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. As I said, this is something local authorities are doing already. They have to make decisions about identification of domestic abuse at present without this legislation. I am saying that the legislation is not altering the position. I will happily cover that in the letter, if I may.

There was a question regarding training for local authorities. Training goes on at the moment. The new code of guidance on homelessness will advise local authorities about the need to have appropriate policies and training in place. We provide funding to the National Homelessness Advice Service to provide training, which is taken up by many—probably most—local authorities. For example, we provided funding to the National Practitioner Support Service for domestic abuse awareness training for front-line housing staff in 2016. That trained 232 front-line housing staff across nine English regions. In addition, a number of local authorities used funding from our £20 million fund for specialist accommodation-based support and service reform to meet the priorities for domestic abuse services to provide training programmes. So training is going on at the moment. Again, I will expand on that in the letter that I will ensure goes to noble Lords.

Broader questions were raised, many of which I can understand and empathise with. The noble Lord, Lord Porter, said that I would have been disappointed if he did not raise the issue of supply. I am not sure that “disappointed” is the mot juste, but he is right that I would have been surprised. Clearly, there is an issue of supply, so perhaps I would have been disappointed; we cannot be complacent about the supply of housing across the piece, and we need to look at that.

Other noble Lords, including my noble friends Lord Farmer, Lady Manzoor and Lady Hodgson, raised broader questions about the need to ensure that this agenda is carried forward however hard pressed the legislative programme is. I certainly agree with that and give the undertaking that the Government will do so, because it is absolutely at the forefront of our thinking.

The noble Baroness, Lady Burt, raised some pertinent questions, some of which were picked up by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, is right that there is power in present legislation for perpetrators of domestic abuse to be forced out of the premises in question. I will endeavour to find out how that is being used, because, as noble Lords indicated, there is clearly a question about how effective it is. I will see what statistics we have and ensure that whatever evidence we have comes round before Committee stage. It is a valid point: we are tending here, understandably, to focus on the victim, but we want not to advantage the perpetrator of the domestic abuse. Often—perhaps not as often as one would like—there will be criminal proceedings and the perpetrator will end up in prison, but there is not any guarantee of that. As we know, some domestic abuse is more insidious; it is not always direct, physical violence, so I accept that there are issues of evidence and proof. I will see what I can find on that, because it is important to look at this issue further.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I understand that, under the Small Tenements Recovery Act 1838, it was possible for a local authority to go to a court and evict without having to produce the justification. The position as I understand it from the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, is that there would have to be a proceeding and the court would then have to decide whether it was satisfied that the abuse was sufficient to warrant. I am asking this question because I am not altogether convinced that local authorities, realising that they may have to go into proceedings to argue the scale of the abuse, will be prepared to do it. They may say, “It’s better from our point of view simply to leave the abuser in place without taking any action”. That is why it is important that the Minister follows this up in some detail.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a powerful case that I accept. As I have said, I want to see how much this provision is taken up, how effective it has been over the years and the number of cases where perhaps it might have been used but has not.

I shall try to pick up some other points that were raised. Any that I have not covered I will ensure are covered in the write-around. The noble Lord, Lord Shipley, raised a question about the consultation that has just closed on residence tests. I will ensure that that is taken up. It has just closed, he is absolutely right. We anticipate that the residence requirement—or the non-residence requirement—will be carried forward to ensure that victims of domestic abuse are placed in the position he indicated and that I agree with him that they should be in.

The most important thing I can do, in closing, is to give an undertaking in relation to the very pertinent point raised by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, about the termination of joint tenancies. I will follow that up. Some of the other specific points that were raised were a little off-piste—legal aid and so on—but if the noble Lord, Lord Lipsey, wants a fuller response I will make sure that it comes to him, but that will not be in the context of this Bill.

I thank noble Lords very much for their support, which will make it much easier to carry this legislation through and then to tackle the domestic abuse situation on a broader front. In closing I once again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, whose rigour and charming determination has ensured that we are where we are today.

Private Rented Sector: Electrical Safety Checks

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 6th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with some justification about issues primarily of enforcement. Local authorities have powers available to them that they should be exercising. I am not sure whether he was intending to bring in the carbon monoxide situation where, in fact, mortality is very low and there are provisions in relation to enforcement of the regulations on solid fuel. That does not exist at the moment in relation to gas, but a working party is looking at this matter. There is a consultation on it, which started on 7 November.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, why not make this mandatory on a change of tenancy, as against in guidance, when often landlords are not competent persons as defined in the regulations?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am not sure whether the noble Lord is talking about the installation or checking of appliances. Again, this is something on which the Hackitt review will no doubt opine, and we will take account of that when we see the interim and final reports. It is not that we are not intending to do anything; we intend to do something in the round, rather than in a piecemeal fashion, to ensure that the measures are sensible.

Grenfell Recovery Taskforce

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 6th November 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord very much indeed for his typically generous comments about the tenor of the Government’s response to this dreadful tragedy. He asked specifically about the position on sprinklers. Perhaps I may restate something that has been said before, but it certainly bears restating: the Dame Judith Hackitt review is looking at building regulation and fire safety and it will certainly be considering this issue. I have also just looked at the terms of the inquiry and it is in there as well, so I have reassured myself that it is in place. Obviously we will await the results of these two independent inquiries. It is for them to make their recommendations and we would expect to carry them forward and regard them with appropriate seriousness.

The noble Lord also asked about the position of blocks other than those which are within local authority control; he specifically asked about housing association and privately owned blocks, and perhaps by inference other government blocks—there are some in the health sector and in education that are subject to the same principles that are being carried forward on testing and so on. That is true of housing associations as well. On private blocks, we have asked local authorities to follow up in relation to the blocks in their areas and have asked for a response from them. We will follow up on those responses in due course.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, perhaps I may follow up on a question put by my noble friend Lord Beecham on private blocks, and which I have raised before in the House with the Minister. Are local authorities required to hold information on the specification of the cladding that has been applied to private blocks where that cladding has been the subject of approval by building control officers in the local authorities where those blocks were built?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, if I may I will write to the noble Lord on the specifics of his question. However, on the general point, local authorities are being required by us to report on all private blocks that may offend in relation to these safety standards. As I say, I will get back to the noble Lord on his particular point.

Housing: Letting Agents

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 31st October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for that question, as it gives me the opportunity to say that most landlords are good landlords. I do not agree with the hypothesis that, by bringing in legislation to deal with poor landlords, we are saying that all of them are poor, any more than the Theft Act means that everybody is a criminal.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, tax evasion by landlords is rife in London. Could a registration scheme be set up in such a way that an agency that registered had to inform HMRC of the tenancies in which it had been involved?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, if the noble Lord is aware of any tax evasion, I would be very grateful to hear about it and would then pass the information on to the Treasury in the usual way. I am not aware of this being as widespread as he perhaps suggests, but obviously the Government are keen to make sure that everybody pays the appropriate taxation that is due, so I would be glad to see any evidence that he has.

Property Agents: Registration

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 18th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that contribution. As he rightly says, it is not the subject of the Statement we heard today, but I will look at that matter and respond to him. I will ensure that a copy of my response is placed in the Library and copied to all noble Lords who participated in this Statement.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I am a little confused. The noble Lord referred to a paper on leaseholds. Surely any consultation on leasehold reform should be part of a wider package that includes the area we are dealing with today. That could then be incorporated in one piece of either draft or final legislation. Should not that be the intention? At the end of the day, these discussions all end in arguments about enfranchisement, as my noble friend suggested, and the purchase of freeholds.

That brings me to my final point. It is extremely difficult for residents’ associations to gain access to the lists of leasehold owners in blocks of flats, in particular in London where a large proportion of our flats are owned by people overseas. When residents’ associations seek to gain that information from management companies, they find that they are denied access to it. That often makes it impossible for them to move forward in the whole process of buying the freehold. Why is that not being considered as part of the legislation that the Government are proposing?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his contribution. On the general point about whether it is wiser to act on individual parts of the problem or wait and do the whole thing in a consolidated way in one go, I think he would probably find himself in disagreement with people who are keen to move things forward in some of the areas we have been talking about. I understand what he is saying but there is a discrete area that we have been looking at in relation to leasehold reform and houses that have been sold on very long leases with ground rents. There is a case for urgent action there before we tackle the broader issue of service charges that we are looking at here.

On the specific point that the noble Lord raises about residents’ associations, that is encompassed within the consultation. I think that he will be pleased about that. There is a general catch-all anyway. If there is a particular question that is not asked which someone feels is appropriate, there is a catch-all which provides the opportunity to respond on that as well. However, we are looking forward to hearing from people on the particular issue that he raises.

Fire Safety

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 9th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend makes an entirely fair point. I think that has been the subject of a letter from my right honourable friend. I will double-check that, if I may, to ensure that that is the case, and if it is not we will certainly need to pick it up.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

But, my Lords, there is no difference between a publicly owned block and a privately owned block. Over the months, in replies to these Questions that have been asked in the House, the Minister keeps drawing a distinction between where the work should be required by law to be carried out and it being left voluntarily to private landowners. How can the Minister carry on justifying this great inconsistency?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, that is not an inconsistency I have expressed. I think it must be a figment of the noble Lord’s imagination. I certainly have not said that at all. What I have said, just now in response to my noble friend Lady Berridge, is that we will look at it in exactly the same way. Anything that is essential to be done will be done. We will ensure that financial hardship does not stop that happening.

Update on Grenfell Response and Building Safety

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Stunell, very much indeed for that very constructive contribution. I should have made it clear that all of the 89 buildings have failed. If I did not do so, I apologise. I do not think that was stated in the Statement. The energy performance point raised by the noble Lord is fair and valid. Obviously, safety, quite rightly, has to have primacy. However, he is right that we want to honour our Paris climate change commitments. We want to make sure that these buildings are as energy efficient and green as possible. We will raise that concern with BEIS, which is the Ministry where climate change rests these days. However, I repeat that safety must have primacy.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister referred to a letter that he was sending to local authorities about their responsibilities with regard to the private sector. Can we see a copy of that letter, please?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, a minor correction: the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, is right that I referred to a letter but it was sent by the Secretary of State. However, I will endeavour to ensure that either the letter, or the relevant part of it, if it contains other sensitive matters, is circulated. I will seek to include that in the circular letter I am sending round.

Grenfell Tower: Rehousing Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 5th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Earl for that. Clearly, there are issues that will be looked at by the inquiry. Initially, issues will be looked at by the expert panel in relation to this disaster—the immediate action necessary. Then, I anticipate that there will be an interim report for the inquiry, then a fuller report. The noble Earl referred to perhaps even broader issues that we will need to address. I am sure that they will be addressed in due time. Just at the moment, we are focused on the immediate things that must be dealt with in terms of the awful tragedy at Grenfell Tower.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Minister said there were 17 leaseholders; that is, people who will have purchased their property from the local authority. Can he say a little more about their position? I presume that they will either be block insured under a block policy or they will be individually insured in terms of the value of their property. Will they be treated in any way differently from those who were tenants of the local authority?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for that perceptive question. Each case is different and each is being looked at individually. I think they will be dealt with mutatis mutandis. Obviously, there are differences because they own the property rather than being social tenants. But in essence it will be dealt with in parallel in exactly the same way.

Grenfell Tower Update

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 3rd July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank my noble friend very much indeed for that contribution. I am happy to endorse what he says about the impartiality of the judge and to deplore the suggestion that has been made that such a situation has to be dealt with by somebody from a particular background. That is totally improper. It is important that we uphold the independence of our judiciary and recognise that Sir Martin will go about his job in that way.

I, too, had seen the point about staying put when there is a fire. Doubtless, that is something which the judge will want to look at within the context of the Grenfell Tower fire but more widely as regards advice when there are fires.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will know that there are blocks of flats owned by private landlords in all our major cities which are clad in very similar material. When I asked the other day whether the cladding on those privately owned blocks should be tested compulsorily, as is the case with social landlord-owned blocks, the Minister said that,

“it is not compulsory for them to do so, because that is what we have decided”.—[Official Report, 27/6/17; col. 290.]

Many of my colleagues came up to me after I asked that question to say that they could not understand the answer. What is the difference between a privately owned block covered in this cladding as against a social landlord-owned block? Surely the risks are exactly the same? If one should be compulsorily tested, surely it should apply to the other. Can I have a fuller explanation on this occasion?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord. In fairness, on that occasion I responded to a supplementary question, perhaps from a sedentary position, so it was a second question. However, I went back afterwards, because I took seriously what the noble Lord said; I know that he always comes forward with serious and properly researched points. After this dreadful fire in social housing, the Government have taken the view that looking at social housing in this country has to be our top priority. That is not to say that we disregard our concern for private blocks, because indeed they have been contacted, and indication has been made to landlords that they are able to avail themselves of the free testing facility, we are encouraging them to do so and we will follow that up. But in terms of priorities, social housing will come first, and then of course we will, rightly, turn to the issue of private housing. As regards resources, we could not offer the same attention to both. It is not that it is more important, but we are focusing on the social housing first.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord very much for those pertinent questions. First, on his question about remedial work and whether funds will be made available for local authorities and housing associations, my understanding is that that is the case. I will, once again, cover that in the write-round letter, but I believe it is the case. I believe also that it is new money—our targets on housing remain very much as they were—but, again, I will cover that in the letter. On the governance arrangements, I will ensure that this debate is made available to the judge, Sir Martin, so that he is aware of the discussions here. I would be surprised if that issue did not come up in discussion with tenants’ organisations, which he will be speaking with. However, the point is well made, and I will make sure that it is brought to the attention of the judge, as well as the whole of this debate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I am sorry to come back again but, to be frank, I am dissatisfied with the responses I am getting. Why cannot the private sector fund its own cladding testing arrangements and get on with that job immediately? I am sure it is not beyond the wit of man to generate, create or design the equipment that is used in testing. As I understand it, Ministers are now saying that the many dozens, if not hundreds, of privately owned blocks—I do not know how many—which potentially have had this cladding applied to them, will have to wait, because there are not the facilities. The Minister said that the Government’s priority is to deal with the social landlord sector, which means that private blocks will have to wait to see whether they are tested, unless those test sites are already available. If they are, why cannot it be made compulsory?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the point is one of compulsion. They are available, and there is spare capacity at the moment, as has been indicated—we can do 100 tests a day. So we are encouraging landlords to make use of that facility: they are able to do so; we are encouraging them to do so; and there is evidence that many are doing it. The point is one of compulsion. We are not compelling it at the moment, because—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

We are putting our attention very much on the social housing sector, which, in the light of what has happened, noble Lords will understand.

Fire Safety: Lakanal House Fire

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 27th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank the noble Countess. As I say, I do not want to prejudge what will be decided partly by the advisory committee, which will make recommendations to the Secretary of State, and partly by the public inquiry. It is the case that regulation is necessary and we are revisiting that. The Lakanal inquiry and recommendations focused on simplifying fire regulation. We are revisiting that because it might not now be the appropriate response, but we do not want to prejudge that; it is something that the inquiry will want to look at.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in his response yesterday on the Statement, the Minister said:

“we have been in contact with all the private sector landlords and are recommending that they test the cladding. It is not compulsory”. —[Official Report, 26/6/17; col. 201.]

Why is it not compulsory? What is the difference between a socially-owned block of flats and a privately-owned block of flats?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I did, indeed, say that. That is the case. There are far more blocks in the social housing sector that are of the relevant height, above 18 metres, that are being contacted. We have contacted all private sector landlords and we will follow up on that, but the noble Lord is absolutely right: it is not compulsory for them to do so, because that is what we have decided.

Update on the Grenfell Tower Fire and Fire Safety

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 26th June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

Yes, in repeating the Statement. That is certainly the case. We are talking to the LGA, which is a very helpful partner and is following up on some of these. The testing is quite quick. We need to make sure that some of the local authorities are coming up with the material for us to test. With the LGA, we are following that up.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, a question was asked about work being carried out while residents are in situ. The recladding and other fire protection work will involve potentially hundreds of blocks of flats nationally and perhaps as many as 50,000 families. Instead of the evacuation of families, which will arise in some cases, with all the disruption of family life that entails—which is what we hear is going on in Camden at the moment—have the Government and local authorities considered the appointment of fire monitors, on a shift system basis, during surveys and periods of work, carefully located in vulnerable blocks, in particular where there are clusters of blocks of flats, and where those fire monitors can be in fire alarm contact with all flat owners? There are two advantages. First, it will give residents some peace of mind and, secondly, it will save a lot of public money.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I thank the noble Lord and congratulate him on his perseverance in asking the question. He is absolutely right that evacuation should be only in extremis, which I think the Camden situation was. They considered very carefully whether it was appropriate there. The possibility of fire monitors—or, as I think we are calling them, fire managers—being in situ on the premises is certainly being looked at as one possible way of mitigating that, and I thank the noble Lord for his support for that idea. He is absolutely right that, where appropriate, this will provide peace of mind and save money and, of course, save disruption in other cases. But in some cases, evacuation will be appropriate and Camden was certainly one of them.

Leaseholders: Holiday Letting

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 25th April 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, breach of planning regulations is very different from the issue of freedom of contract. In relation to that matter, I have met with Airbnb. It does not now carry anyone who lets their property for more than 90 days at a time unless they have planning permission to do so. That is the company’s rule and it has contacted all those who propose to let property to let them know that. Since then, the Minister for Housing and Planning has written to all the other suppliers indicating that they should do similarly and that if there is a contractual provision they should abide by that as well.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Why not just reduce the time from 90 days to a lower number?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the 90-day limit was set in the Deregulation Act. Other towns throughout Europe might have different limits. Outside of London, there is no limit. Ninety days was the limit set in the Deregulation Act.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

But that does not mean it cannot be reset.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

No, indeed it does not, but we are not going to.

Short-Term Letting for Holiday Purposes

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 2nd March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the taxation rules would apply in the normal way. Where there is a capital gain, the owner of the property would be responsible for that in the normal way, subject to reliefs, and the owner would be responsible for schedular income tax in the normal way.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The Minister said that local authorities can enforce the law. These cases cost thousands of pounds. Why should the council tax payer pick up the bill? Surely there has to be another solution.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, under the Deregulation Act there is responsibility for enforcing this against a particular owner of a property. Initially, of course, there would be a discussion—I do not suppose that the first thing that happens is that it ends up in court—but for those defying the law, there is potentially a £20,000 fine on summary conviction and an unlimited fine on indictment, which would be a considerable incentive to obey the law. That is what we are finding in the great bulk of cases.

Housing White Paper

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 7th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I anticipate that it is looking at greater contributions—the wording is obviously broader than that, but my reading is that we are looking at ways to ensure that there is a more effective contribution. I look forward to the issue of contributions when we consult on that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Will not private individual landowners all over the country be rubbing their hands with glee at the prospect of transforming, at the stroke of a planner’s pen, land worth £10,000, £15,000, £20,000 or £25,000 a hectare, into land worth anything between £1 million and £5 million a hectare? Is not the price of land in the United Kingdom, and huge profit-taking by individual landlords when they secure planning permission on their land, at the heart of the problem? Until that problem is sorted out, we will never resolve the problem of housing in this country.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is being a bit of an Eeyore. We are being encouraged to build more, which we are seeking to do here. If it is a question of supply and demand, the more supply there is, the more that would affect the price. There are also provisions in the White Paper with regard to landlords, which we are consulting on, and which landlords would not necessarily welcome—the bad ones certainly will not. We are looking across the board at unreasonable terms in leasehold provision, and at some where people think they are buying their own home only to find that they have a ground rent payment, for example, or things of that nature. Therefore, if the noble Lord studies the White Paper, he will see that it is extremely fair.

Business Rates: High Street Retailers

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 17th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, my noble friend is absolutely right that there is, in essence, a scheme within the 1988 legislation that provides for relief for businesses that are experiencing increases. Most of them are in London and the south-east of England, but they are not limited to that area. That will phase in over a period. There are caps—I shall not go into all the technical details—but we are concentrating assistance on the small and medium-sized end of things, up to a rateable value of £100,000, to qualify for the small business relief. That has been doubled in the legislation, which will help businesses from April 2017.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, with retailers all over the country complaining about the prospect of increased rates, what consultation took place with retail organisations prior to these decisions being taken?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, as I have indicated previously, this is carried out by the Valuation Office Agency. It is not something that Ministers have got involved in. It has been carried out in the normal way of revaluation in relation to the principles that apply in relation to the valuation of businesses. Ministers have put in place the relief scheme in order to help. I should say once again that over large parts of the country, certainly in all of the north and all of the south-west, for example, businesses have benefited disproportionately in terms of the revaluation. They have seen their rates bills go down.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, my question was about consultation. What retail organisations were consulted on what is about to happen?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, for example, the CBI has welcomed the proposals and the British Chambers of Commerce has said that it is essential that we have revaluations. It is not a question of consulting. We have put in place in relation to assisting businesses—the great mass of small and medium-sized businesses have benefited—a scheme that is entirely fair.

Business Rates: Devolution

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 21st December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, obviously the consultation is primarily designed to take account of the position of local authorities. That is something we are taking forward. I am sure that feeding through views from retailers will be something local authorities will wish to bring forward in the consultation and discussion we are having.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, to follow up on the Question, and given that the new responsibility is placed on local government, do conversations take place with the Treasury as to whether local authorities can afford to take on that responsibility? What is the process? Is everybody involved in the discussion, or is it just one side working against another?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the first point I make to the noble Lord is that, although new responsibilities are being talked about, he will recognise that a considerable amount of new finance will be generated by 100% business rate retention. We are talking about some £12.5 billion—a considerable sum. Yes, of course the discussion is both within government and, as I indicated, with our local authority partners.

Affordable Housing

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 29th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I know that that is a subject dear to the noble Baroness’s heart. We are concerned about allotments in the department—as she will know, we are ensuring that they are not part of the brownfield sites agenda, so they are safe from that. I am sure that local authorities will have heard what she has had to say and will heed it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the real problem the cost of land for housing development in the United Kingdom? When sold for agricultural purposes, land can come out on average nationally at £20,000 a hectare, whereas when that same hectare of land—at the stroke of a planner’s pen—is turned into land for housing, it can be worth anything between £1 million and £5 million? Is that not the real problem we have to sort out in this country?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right about the cost of land—it is excessive, although of course it varies according to which part of the country one is looking at—and this perhaps ties in with the last question and the answers to that. It is far cheaper to build affordable housing in most parts of the country outside of London. I have looked at figures for the east Midlands, where it would be well under half the cost, and it is a factor. But it is a fact that successive Governments have not built enough. We recognise the need to build more affordable houses, which is why the housing White Paper will be ground-breaking—not to mix metaphors—as we tackle this problem going forward.

Housing and Planning Act 2016

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 24th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Minister will recall that during Committee and Report on the Bill, we argued at length on the issue that is the subject of the Question. What has led to this U-turn? Was it the strength of our formidable arguments?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, what resulted in the change was considering how people, particularly in London, would be penalised on the levels we are looking at. The Government should not be criticised for examining the situation in front of them and reconsidering a policy, which is what we have done. As I say, the provision will remain on a voluntary basis because there are people on very high incomes who should pay more for the housing they occupy.

Home Ownership

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 15th September 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I know that my noble friend is a great supporter of allotments. As I have indicated before, allotments are protected in relation to brownfield sites. We have committed that 90% of brownfield sites will have planning permission by 2020, but I am sure that she will be very pleased that allotments are protected in relation to that policy.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not the problem the price of land for housing? How can we justify a hectare of land being sold outside London, in the provinces, for £12,000 or £15,000 an acre which when it receives planning permission can be worth £2 million, £3 million, £4 million, £5 million or, in some parts of England, £6 million a hectare? Is that not the real blockage in housing development in the United Kingdom?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right that one of the issues is supply. That is why we are focusing very much on housebuilding, whether for purchase or for rent. He is also right that one considerable challenge we have is in relation to the price. That is why we have committed £20 billion, as I indicated, and doubled the budget for housing over the length of this Parliament.

Sellafield

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Wednesday 8th July 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I think the noble Baroness is slightly wrong on that. I said that these things are kept under close scrutiny but there was no specific review in prospect. No Government would say that these things would not lead to either budget increases or budget reductions.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Did the Minister say that we do not import waste? Is not the policy of substitution still in place?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

I apologise but I did not hear that question. The next Question has been called.

Energy: Onshore Wind

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that contribution. It is right to say, as he has done, that opinion in Scotland certainly is not all one way and there are split views on the usefulness and so on of onshore wind.

In relation to his more general comment about renewables, the Government are committed to making sure that we have a balance of interests between affordability, security and clean energy. That remains the case. Renewables are very important going forward to ensure that we meet those three aims, as a department and a government.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, there is something that I cannot quite understand. The Minister said that he was going to consult the Scottish Government. What is he consulting on if the decisions have already been taken?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the Secretary of State in another place made it very clear that discussions have been going on with the devolved Administrations about the rollout of the policy, and that will remain the case. On Wednesday, she is meeting Fergus Ewing, the Minister for Energy in the Scottish Parliament, to further those discussions. In relation to one or two comments that have been made about consultation, I should also say that there is a dialogue with industry and interested parties—not consultation but a dialogue—about the rollout in relation to the grace period.

Arts: Concert Hall for London

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 24th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions they have had with those involved in the planning of the proposed new concert hall for London.

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have spoken to a range of interested parties about the proposed new concert hall, including the Greater London Authority. The Chancellor recently announced £1 million of funding to support a feasibility study into the new concert hall, which will report back in the autumn. Work on the study is already under way.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

With Crossrail opening in 2018, thereby making access to central London far faster than on much of the London Tube network, instead of the Government sponsoring a feasibility study into yet another concert hall in London, why not build a new international concert hall on a site on the Crossrail route that is accessible to Heathrow and on land that is far cheaper than in central London? May I suggest building it in the Royal Borough of Windsor and Maidenhead? Surely, the Home Counties deserve their share of major projects, following upon Crossrail?

Humanitarian Aid: Tikrit

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Tuesday 10th March 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in so far as Tikrit is a Sunni community and the Daesh is a Sunni movement persecuting its own Sunni community, and if we are engaged in providing assistance, can we use those routes for providing assistance to develop a new relationship with the Sunni leadership in Iraq, who very often have been ignored?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My Lords, the noble Lord is right: it is basically a Sunni community. It was, of course, the birthplace of Saddam Hussein and therefore has a totemic significance as well. We are aware of that. The humanitarian aid that goes from this country is given on the basis of need; it is given without any consideration of which community or religion a person comes from. But we are seeking to ensure through Prime Minister Abadi—who, of course, is Shia—that there is a united Iraq at the end of all of this, encompassing all faiths.

Afghanistan: Development Strategy Post-2014

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth

Thursday 20th November 2014 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

My noble friend is absolutely right to raise that key issue, which relates to education, antenatal care and health services for women. Substantial progress has been made. Currently, 6.7 million people are receiving education in Afghanistan, of whom 3 million are girls. Much still needs to be done but that is significant progress over the past decade.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is not one measure of our success, or lack of it, regarding the future strategy in Afghanistan the price of heroin on the streets of London?

[Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth]

The noble Lord raises a key point regarding the future development of Afghanistan and the seemingly intractable problem of dealing with the drugs trade. This demands a long-term solution not just in Afghanistan but on the streets of London and elsewhere in the West. Often noble Lords and others may think that Afghanistan is not a country rich in natural resources but it is worth noting that there are other sources of income. There are $2 trillion worth of minerals in Afghanistan. The challenge is to ensure that we develop that and ensure that the people of Afghanistan are the beneficiaries of it.