Licensing: Closing Time

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 29th September 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, there is a general acknowledgement that the sector is struggling with an hour of its business being cut. The scientific basis is that the number of infections is going up, and the Government, through their engagement with SAGE, are thinking of the best ways to tackle the virus while keeping the economy going as best they can.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I strongly support whatever legal arrangements are in place, but regarding 10 pm breaches, may I suggest that the authorities have powers, which will take a week or two to settle in, not only to fine, clear and close premises, but to require from premises and personal licensees and their dedicated premises supervisors a written assurance on future compliance with the law, and in default to subject them to a form of aggravated breach penalty payment—in other words, an increased fine?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that this system is in place. The fines do go up, from £1,000 to £10,000. It would be an unusual licensee who wished to have several £10,000 fines.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 22nd June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what has been the total cost, including the associated costs, to date of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government set up the independent inquiry to shine a light on the institutional failings of the past, to give a voice to victims and to learn lessons for the future. The inquiry is operationally independent and responsible for the management of its own budget. Since it was established in 2015, it has made significant progress. The cost of the inquiry to the end of March 2020 was just over £137 million.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab) [V]]

Are we not now witnessing in the IICSA inquiry a macabre, quasi-criminal trial of the dead? As the Minister has said, it has already cost over £130 million at a time when the country is spiralling into debt, and its chairman is costing nearly a quarter of a million pounds a year. In the Janner case the accusers are there for the compensation, while the lawyers milk the system. Is not the simple truth that a well-motivated inquiry doing excellent work has now nearly run its course, with little further to add to the sum of human knowledge on institutional child abuse? Its job is done.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in answer to the noble Lord’s first question as to whether we have embarked upon a macabre criminal trial of the dead, I think that the House would agree that the inquiry is there to learn the lessons of the past so that no more children have to go through what historically some of those children had to. I agree with him that at some point the inquiry will come to an end. It expects its public hearings to conclude by the end of 2020.

Domestic Violence

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 5th May 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I totally understand that point. This has been on our radar, and we have engaged with police and communities. Neighbours can set up silent codewords with potential victims, which is one way that people can communicate with each other in these very stifling times during lockdown. That will certainly help the police, who are engaging with high-risk victims and perpetrators during this time.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, my question has already been asked by my noble friend Lord Kennedy of Southwark—it is the subject of a piece I wrote in the Times a couple of weeks ago. May I dispute the Minister’s answer? She said that she does not think it would be very helpful if people were to sit side by side. I think that is exactly what we want. We want victims and abusers to be sitting side by side when the message comes over that what is happening is wrong, and when giving information and advice.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I did not denounce the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy; I pointed out some of the unintended consequences of stirring up tensions when a household might already be in a very tense situation. I by no means dismiss the noble Lord’s point.

Historic Sexual Offences: Investigations

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 4th March 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, allegations of sexual offences are serious matters and must be treated as such, regardless of when they are alleged to have occurred. Increasing numbers of people now have the confidence to come forward and report what happened to them. It is right that the police are investigating these allegations and encouraging that they are securing convictions and providing victims and survivors with the justice that they deserve.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, as the Carl Beech affair now draws to a close, is not the real scandal in its management the fact that decent, honourable people, who have and had given a lifetime of public service to their country, have had their reputations destroyed by the headline-grabbing accusations of ambitious self-publicists and irresponsible policemen, who believed and promoted the lies of a fantasist, and that the damage that these purveyors of untruth have done can never be mitigated? Surely the perpetrators of this huge injustice bear responsibility for what has subsequently happened and it rests on their conscience, and history will never forgive them.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with much of what the noble Lord says. Once someone is falsely accused, that can never be undone and it can blight their entire life from that moment forward. Of course, some of the people whom I am sure the noble Lord is referring to are dead and cannot defend themselves. There is some remedy in law—perverting the course of justice or perjury in court—but he is absolutely right that those allegations can never be reversed and can destroy lives for ever.

Operation Midland

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 3rd February 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Operation Conifer has been scrutinised and it followed absolutely the procedures it would have been required to undertake. Its outcome, while not satisfactory at all to some of Sir Edward Heath’s friends and family, has certainly been fully and rigorously tested.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in addition to Carl Beech, two other people who have not been named publicly lied to the Midland inquiry. Why were those two people not named and did either of them make accusations against Lord Janner that were unjustified allegations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, those who have not been charged are rightly anonymous; your Lordships’ House is very clear that we should not name people before charge. Whether people are named after they have been through a court process would be a matter for the courts.

Facial Recognition Surveillance

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 27th January 2020 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Baroness will understand if I do not discuss her ongoing JR against the Home Office. I do not know where the noble Baroness got her accuracy figures from. On the point about bias, the Met’s original trials found no statistically significant differences in identifying different demo- graphics, and Cardiff University’s independent review of South Wales Police’s trials found no overt discrimination effects. I repeat the figures I gave earlier: there is a one in 4,500 chance of triggering a false alert and over an 80% chance of a correct one, but I would be interested to see where the noble Baroness got her figures.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I strongly welcome the Government’s approach to this matter, but why is facial recognition an acceptable form of identity in the case of surveillance in combating crime yet it, and other personal identifiers, are unacceptable in the case of a national identity card, which could be equally important in combating crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I like the way the noble Lord got the identity card in; I was wondering when he was going to deploy it. The Question is on AFR, which we can use to identify criminals because it is a unique biometric, which an identity card may not necessarily be. I am not going to get drawn on identity cards today, but I congratulate the noble Lord on managing to get them in.

Sir Richard Henriques Report

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not disagree with my noble friend calling it a miserable and disastrous affair. I know that the Home Secretary has been in communication with HMICFRS, not to try and direct the role of the inspection but to discuss with it what might be within the scope of the inquiry.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, returning to the issue of anonymity, the law does not work, and the Minister knows it. Many reputations have been destroyed. Can I raise the question that I raised the other day about Mr Steve Rodhouse, director-general of operations at the National Crime Agency, who is principally responsible for this disaster? Why is he not going to be sacked?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am afraid that the matter concerning the individual whom the noble Lord mentioned is a matter between him and the NCA.

Road Closures in Central London

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 8th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Or a carriage. We can be sure that she will get here by a very green method indeed. The noble Baroness might say that it is peaceful; it feels peaceful but with sinister undertones.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, how do Ministers respond to the legitimate argument made by many of the demonstrators, that only demonstrations that irritate or annoy the establishment ever have any effect?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think that is true. We talked about balance earlier; we are a country that absolutely allows for peaceful protest. We are talking about people not being able to get into work, businesses being disrupted and the disabled of your Lordships’ House and the other place not being able to get to their place of work. That is slightly different. It is absolutely vital that the people of this country are able to protest peacefully, but not to disrupt the entire infrastructure of the city of London.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 4th July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what discussions officials from the Home Office have had with the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse in the last month.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, as sponsors to the inquiry, Home Office officials have a responsibility to protect the inquiry’s independence and ensure that it has the resources it needs to deliver its terms of reference, as set out in the IICSA management statement. Regular discussions have taken place in the last month regarding such sponsorship.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is it not ironic that, while so-called complainants with substantial criminal records are accorded anonymity as witnesses before IICSA, those who stand accused, such as Harvey Proctor and Lord Janner, still have no anonymity, no right to cross-examine witnesses and no right of defence, and can still be freely attacked, even when they are dead? IICSA is not listening to Parliament. Is this not precisely what Sir Cliff Richard was referring to yesterday when launching the FAIR campaign, a petition for pre-charge anonymity now being supported by thousands every day? The law is an ass and should be reformed. I ask noble Lords to listen to the excellent episode of “The Moral Maze” broadcast last night on BBC Radio 4, in which these matters were dealt with beautifully.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, on the first point, the hearings are inquisitorial and enable the inquiry to test witnesses and their evidence. All core participants are provided with the evidence; their legal teams are permitted to propose questions for the witnesses and apply to the chair for permission to put them. Regarding the point that the noble Lord made yesterday, I cannot comment on the handling of specific investigations but, as I said then, current police guidance is very clear and adopts a similar approach to that advanced by the petition to which the noble Lord refers. Suspects’ identities should not be released before charge, save in exceptional circumstances and with proper oversight. I am not aware of evidence to suggest that the police are not following that guidance.

Sexual Offences: Anonymity

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 3rd July 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It might assist my noble friend if I say that the College of Policing’s authorised professional practice guidance on relationships with the media highlights the importance of respecting a suspect’s right to privacy. It states:

“Police will not name those arrested, or suspected of a crime, save in exceptional circumstances where there is a legitimate policing purpose to do so”.


The naming of an arrested person before they are charged must be,

“authorised by a chief officer”,

who must ensure that the Crown Prosecution Service is consulted.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, how can the Government ignore this petition, which has been signed not by 10,000 people in the last 24 hours, as the Minister said, but by nearly 20,000 people? In the Janner case the police, before charge, placed an advert in the local media, with a phone number, calling on so-called Janner accusers to come forward. They did, with the result that there was a flood of compensation claims under the Criminal Injuries Compensation Scheme from people, most of whom had criminal records, all of which have now been withdrawn. There is something wrong with the arrangements as they currently exist and this petition, signed by all these people, is very important. It should be taken seriously by the Government.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not suggesting at all that the petition is not being taken seriously. The independent inquiry into historical child sexual abuse is taking a very robust approach to the institutional responses to those historical allegations of child sexual abuse.

Grooming Gangs

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 14th May 2019 Grand Committee

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

No, the noble Lord, Lord Blunkett, has raised a valid point. Taxi drivers can not only operate in another local authority but cross local authority boundaries into the one where they originally perpetrated the abuse. I will take that back because I do not know what the up-to-date position is on taxi licensing. I take it as a valid point but perhaps I can go on to talk further about funding, because a number of noble Lords have raised that.

In the last three years, the Government have provided over £7.2 million in funding for rape support services, which I think were mentioned by the noble Lord, Lord Pearson of Rannoch. This supports victims and survivors of rape and sexual abuse across England and Wales. These services provide independent, specialist support to female and male victims of sexual violence, including victims of child sexual abuse. Our ambition is to support victims and survivors wherever and whoever they are. That is why, from April this year, government funding for these support services has increased by 10% to a total of £24 million over the next three years. This will ensure, for the first time, that there are government-funded rape and sexual abuse support services in all 42 of the country’s police and crime commissioner areas.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why should Rotherham have to pick up the lion’s share of this bill when this is a national problem and it already has high council tax arrangements, while other parts of the country with very low council tax, such as here in Westminster, do not have to pay or make any contribution at all? Surely the balance is completely wrong.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I remind the noble Lord and others that we are now seven minutes into my 10-minute response, so there will be a number of questions that I will not get to. Of course, the amount of council tax set is entirely a matter for local authorities. I was always proud that Trafford had the lowest council tax in the north-west. It is a matter of individual decision-making. We could have a whole discussion on council tax, but I will not go there. I will say that it is an individual matter for local areas, and that the Government will increase spending from £31 million in 2018 to £39 million in 2021 to improve services and pathways for survivors and victims of sexual violence and abuse who seek support from sexual assault referral centres, regardless of age or gender.

Recognising the devastating impact of sexual exploitation by organised groups, the Government have also awarded £1 million through the tampon tax fund to the organisation Changing Lives to provide trauma-informed support to vulnerable women who have been groomed by groups of men for sexual exploitation in locations across the north-east and Yorkshire, including Rotherham. The project will result in the production of a toolkit to enable the approach to be replicated nationally.

We also remain committed to providing specialist services to support victims of child sexual abuse. In each of the last four years we have provided £7 million of funding for non-statutory organisations that support victims, and we have invested £7 million in the pilot of a “child house” model in London, which provides a victim-centred multiagency approach to supporting child victims of sexual abuse under one roof, based on international best practice.

However, ensuring offenders do not get the opportunity to exploit our children is key. Prevention and disruption are crucial parts of our response to tackling child sexual exploitation. That is why we launched our trusted relationships fund, which supports local authority-led projects working with children and young people to build resilience to harm through fostering healthy, trusting relationships with adults, protecting them from sexual exploitation, gang exploitation and peer abuse. As part of this, over £1 million has been awarded to Rotherham for the four-year programme.

The Government have also launched the new tackling child exploitation support programme to help safeguarding partners in local areas to tackle a range of threats to children from gangs, sexual and criminal exploitation, online grooming, trafficking and modern slavery. As part of our £40 million package in the child sexual exploitation progress report, we have recently published a child exploitation disruption toolkit, which brings together existing legislative powers to help local agencies to disrupt, deter and tackle sexual and criminal exploitation of children. Since 2016-17, we have provided £23 million of special grant funding to South Yorkshire Police towards the cost of Operation Stovewood, referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

In September 2018 my right honourable friend the Home Secretary committed to providing an extra £21 million over the next 18 months to improve how law enforcement agencies pursue the most dangerous and prolific offenders. This includes further funding of regional organised crime units to tackle online grooming of children. The 2019-20 police funding settlement provides the biggest increase in police funding since 2010, including more money for local police forces.

The noble Viscount, Lord Falkland, asked why the police delayed pressing charges in the Rotherham cases. The key principle underpinning our policing model is the operational independence of the police and the CPS from government, and that they carry out their duties free from political interference, but it is a matter for the police to review what went wrong and, where appropriate, make a referral to the Independent Office for Police Conduct to investigate misconduct.

My noble friend Lady Newlove asked about the link between modern slavery legislation and this issue. We published a child exploitation disruption toolkit that brings together legislation, including the NRM and the modern slavery legislation, that safeguarding agencies can use and explains how they can use it to protect children from sexual and criminal exploitation. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, made a very good point about RSE: if children do not know what a healthy relationship looks like, they will not know when they are being exploited.

The final point was made by the noble Lord, Lord Rosser. He asked what the Government are doing to improve the understanding of the true scale of child sexual abuse. We recognise that there is a need to better understand the scale and nature of it. Looking at some of the mistakes of the past, scoping reports published by the centre of expertise in 2017-18 found that, due to inconsistent definitions and research methods of previous surveys, it is currently very difficult to make comparisons and track trends over time. Better data is most definitely needed. The centre of expertise is working with partners to develop a detailed proposal for a national prevalence survey on child sexual abuse.

I realise that I have gone a minute over time. I will provide the noble Lord with the answer on the group that was set up, and share it with the Committee. I once again thank the noble Baroness, Lady Cox.

Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 30th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what further discussions they have had, and with whom, about the benefits of the introduction of identity cards.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have previously stated that the introduction of identity cards would be prohibitively expensive and would represent a substantial erosion of civil liberties. This remains our position and, as such, we have held no further discussions on the introduction of identity cards.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, do not last week’s appalling statistics on the screening out by police forces of up to 80% of crimes such as burglary, mugging, theft, fraud, dangerous driving and even sexual offences ring alarm bells in government despite what the Minister has just said, and suggest that a national review is required of the investigative tools available to the police? Could such a review not consider the benefits of ID cards and protocols for the recording of fingerprints, iris recognition and even DNA, which would greatly help the police in the fight against crime?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Of course the things the noble Lord mentioned latterly are all tools in the police’s armoury in investigating and dealing with criminals. Incorporating that into an ID card that embraces all those things goes against civil liberties. We believe that identity should be provided for the purpose for which it is needed, not for everything but just for a single event.

Independent Child Sexual Abuse Inquiry

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what plans they have to meet representatives of Falsely Accused Individuals for Reform (Fair) to discuss the operation of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse; and when they plan for any such meeting to be held.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, the Government have no plans to meet representatives of Falsely Accused Individuals for Reform to discuss the operation of the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse. The inquiry operates independently of government and its independence is crucial to its effectiveness.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, Sir Cliff Richard, Sir Edward Heath, Lords Brittan, Bramall and Janner, Paul Gambaccini and former MP Harvey Proctor were all prominent, all accused, and all treated by the media as guilty. They were never tried, but their reputations were trashed. They were never convicted, and therefore innocent in law. Those who are alive received damages; for the dead, there was not even an apology. Do Ministers really believe, in their heart of hearts, that the police invasion of their homes, with worldwide coverage through a lack of anonymity, and IICSA once again dragging their names through the mud of an inquiry—again, being transmitted around the world—is fair and just? Is it not fair to ask that these and many other cases are on an agenda between government and Fair?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I reiterate that the inquiry is not looking into whether Lord Janner or anyone else—the noble Lord mentioned a number of people—was guilty of any crimes, but at how institutions such as the police, which the noble Lord mentioned, responded to the allegations made against these people. The inquiry’s focus is deliberately on the conduct of institutions and how the allegations were dealt with. As noble Lords will know, the police guidance has been updated to make it clear that people should not be named before they are charged unless there is a public interest reason to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Earl raises a very important question, because of course some victims will never recover from the abuse and trauma they have suffered. The whole approach now of early intervention and putting a package of support around those who are utterly traumatised, and may be for the rest of their life, is absolutely key to any recovery that might be possible.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Minister has just told the House that this inquiry will not make findings of fact. Why then are the accusers to be heard in public session, transmitted all around the world, to make their accusations without even a proper interrogation of them?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is clear that there will be a mechanism for witnesses’ accounts to be examined and questioned. It will not be a one-sided process at all.

Terrorism Act 2000 (Proscribed Organisations) (Amendment) Order 2019

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 28th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. I start with Brexit, which for once is irrelevant to this debate. Matters of national security and intelligence-sharing were in place between states before the EU ever existed, and I know they will continue after it.

One of the major questions asked was: why now? Why did we resist proscription 13 months ago and what has changed? Proscription is a very significant step to take and, as my noble friend Lord Pickles says, it is a decision by the Home Secretary. We keep our response to terrorism under review and it is entirely appropriate that we take all available opportunities to strengthen the UK’s response to both domestic and international threats. Proscribing organisations is just part of that response.

The UK has continued to call on Hezbollah to end its armed status. It has not listened and in fact, contrary to what the noble Lord, Lord Glasman, says, its behaviour has escalated. The links between the senior leaders of the political and military wings and the group’s destabilising role in the region mean that the distinction between the wings is now simply untenable, as noble Lords have said. As the noble Lord, Lord Turnberg, my noble friend Lord Polak and the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay of Cartvale, said, Hezbollah has itself publicly denied a distinction between its military and political wings. To answer noble Lords’ point, the UK has had a no-contact policy with any part of the organisation for a number of years.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

I have been listening to this debate quite closely. What happens in the event that a Member of the Lebanese Parliament—Lebanon is a member of the IPU—comes to the United Kingdom as part of a delegation? Would there be any difficulties for that person in entering the UK?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There might well be. As a member of a proscribed organisation, they may well have great difficulty in getting into this country. I will come to the point about democratic elections shortly. We now assess that the group in its entirety is concerned in terrorism, although I know that noble Lords, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, on the Front Bench, will understand that I cannot go into the details of current intelligence.

The noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, asked if this action was to stop the intimidation of Jews—for example, by the flying of flags on London streets on al-Quds Day. Actually, it is not; the Government keep our response to terrorism under review, and we believe that now is the time to proscribe the entire organisation due to its increasingly destabilising behaviour over recent years. As for what happens on the next al-Quds Day, clearly the order will provide the police with an additional tool—it will be a criminal offence for a person to display a Hezbollah flag in circumstances that arouse reasonable suspicion that they are a member or supporter of Hezbollah—but the operational approach taken to the management of such public demonstrations will of course be a matter for the police.

The noble Lord, Lord Glasman, made a point about Hezbollah now having democratic seats in the Government. I acknowledged that in my opening statement. I could provide a long reel of its historical activity, but more recently it was involved in the siege of eastern Aleppo and, therefore, was partly responsible for preventing the delivery of humanitarian aid to the city’s approximately 275,000 people between 7 July 2016 and the end of the siege in December 2016. During that time, the UN reported there was a risk of mass starvation—noble Lords will have seen the pictures on television—if that humanitarian aid did not reach eastern Aleppo. The subsequent evacuation from those areas of civilians and fighters was also hindered by Hezbollah. That is very recent.

We remain steadfast in our commitment to Lebanon’s stability, security and prosperity, and we will continue to work with the Lebanese Government. Much of that may seem to contradict what I have just said, but it is important to state these things. The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked about the impact of DfID delivery in Lebanon as a result of proscription. We absolutely remain committed to the stability of Lebanon. It is important to say that DfID does not provide any direct assistance to Hezbollah, or to any of the ministries or the institutions that it leads. We ended support to Hezbollah-majority municipalities following the elections in May 2016. DfID requires all its partners to abide by strict UK counterterrorism legislation, and we recently undertook a comprehensive review of all UK government programmes in Lebanon to ensure that we were compliant. As a result of this process, we have strengthened some of our checks and controls, and the majority of our programmes in Lebanon will be unaffected.

I have said that there has been a policy of no contact with any part of Hezbollah since 2010. The proscription clearly will not change that but, in any event, it is not illegal to hold a meeting with a proscribed organisation that is benign or for a legitimate purpose. It is only attending or organising a meeting intended to support or further the activities of the organisation that, as noble Lords would expect, is unlawful.

A number of noble Lords asked about the proscription review group. It is a cross-government group that supports the Home Secretary in his or her decision-making. It makes recommendations and provides advice to the Home Secretary on issues relating to the implementation of the proscription regime, including the case for proscription, name-change orders and consideration of deproscription applications. Membership of that group may vary in accordance with what is being decided, but noble Lords understand that.

The noble Baroness asked about FCO influence on a proscription decision. Clearly the decision-making process of the proscription review group will bring together relevant departments and agencies to come together a collective recommendation.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked if the proscription review group has changed its assessment of Hezbollah’s involvement in terrorism. The Government are clear that Hezbollah has had a long-standing involvement in terrorism. Proscription is a two-stage test; if an organisation is concerned in terrorism, the Home Secretary has discretion to proscribe it. As I have said, we have continued to call on Hezbollah to disarm, but it has continued its destabilising activities in the region. The Home Secretary has now decided to exercise his discretion to proscribe the entire organisation, which we are clear is involved in terrorism.

I thought I would comment on the remarks of my noble friend Lord Pickles, the noble Baroness, Lady Deech, who I do not think is in her place, and the noble Baroness, Lady Ramsay of Cartvale, as what they said about the intentions of Hezbollah was very powerful. The comments about gathering in Israel so as effectively to get them all at once are disgusting and have no place in our society. Hezbollah do not just want to destroy Israel; it wants to destroy all Jews, and we have to do something about that.

The noble Baroness, Lady D’Souza, made a point about free speech. We are very lucky that we have free speech in this country, and we recognise that proscription will have an impact on it. However, although inviting support for any proscribed group is unlawful, the Government fully support the right of community groups or anyone in the UK to debate and discuss issues pertinent to them and the right to protest, as long as those activities are within the law. We have a long tradition of freedom of speech and assembly, and we will not restrict anyone’s freedom of speech as long as they act within the law and do not promote hatred and division.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about points that the noble Lord, Lord Anderson, had made about deproscription reviews being an affront to the rule of law. I reiterate that organisations are proscribed because they are concerned with terrorism. We think that we exercise the proscription power proportionately, but we consider it right to take a cautious approach when considering removing groups from the list of proscribed terrorist organisations. We have made it clear, as I did during the passage of the counter-terrorism Bill, that the Government will seriously consider any information that casts doubt on any proscription, including in the absence of an application.

I conclude by referring to the comments of the noble Earl, Lord Sandwich, about informing other EU countries of the proscription and encouraging them to engage in similar action. We consult member states that have a direct interest in whatever group is at issue. We inform them of the proscription and a parliamentary agreement is secured in this House and the other place. We always consider whether to pursue EU listings of the groups concerned, although obviously different processes and tests apply.

Zimbabwe: Asylum Seekers

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 13th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

On looking at in-country briefs, clearly my department is not the FCO but I am aware of some of the information and advice that the FCO gives to people going to certain countries. To go to an area in Zimbabwe experiencing civil unrest might not be a great idea. The Home Office is aware of certain things, but clearly my colleagues in the Foreign Office would be more sighted on that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Does the Minister draw a distinction between civil unrest and civil repression?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Both might go on. I am not trying to say at this Dispatch Box that the situation in Zimbabwe is in any way ideal. It is not. The Government have made representations through our embassy in Harare on the situation in Zimbabwe. I am not trying to pretend that the situation is in any way ideal.

Migrant Crossings

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think it is important to pause for a moment to think about who benefits from smugglers taking people across the channel from a safe country. Those who benefit are organised criminals. If people choose to cross, they have chosen to cross from one safe country to another. The noble Baroness shakes her head, but she makes the point that people choose to travel from France to the UK.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems to me that this all turns on disincentives to travel, on the one hand, versus the need to protect human life. The Minister was not absolutely clear on the position. Recognising convention and treaty obligations, does the role of HMS “Mersey” include an obligation to collect refugees who have managed to make it into UK territorial waters? The answer to that will be simple. If that is the case, can we be told?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, the obligation of HMS “Mersey” is obviously to protect lives at sea, but of course those people’s cases will be established at some point in their journey—whether it is an asylum claim or whatever. Border officials will then determine the purpose for which those people are either going back to France or coming to the UK—presumably coming to the UK.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The Government are totally aware of the consequences of a small number of migrants coming across the channel in dinghies suddenly escalating into something much bigger, hence the swift action that my right honourable friend the Home Secretary had the political courage to take.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, can the Minister establish the truth about a number of reports in national newspapers that the French are turning back people coming into France from Italy on the basis that they are claiming refugee status? Can we find out where the truth lies?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sure that I cannot point to where the truth lies at this point at the Dispatch Box. First, do not believe everything that you read in the papers. The truth is that the UK is a great country. Quite often, we beat ourselves up about all sorts of things, but lots of people want to come here. I will not pass judgment at this point in time on what France is doing, but we are working very closely with our French partners, who are helping us in our endeavour.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I asked a specific question: can we find out the truth? Are these reports true or not?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The answer is that I do not know but I know that we are working very closely with our French partners.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why can we not simply find that out? We have diplomatic missions in France.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Perhaps I will just bat that to the Foreign Office.

Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 28th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly will elect to bring the noble Lord’s points to the attention of my right honourable friend. Of course, a particular set of circumstances in Northern Ireland means that certain things do not go smoothly, and this is perhaps one of them. However, I will certainly take back the noble Lord’s points.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, do Ministers accept that, in organising its inquiries and hearings, the IICSA has a duty to protect the reputations of persons who have been accused of sexual offences but not found guilty in a court of law? Or is it the Government’s position that IICSA should be free to undermine the reputations of whole families by the way it conducts its inquiries?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It is important to point out that IICSA’s central role is to inquire into a number of institutions rather than people, and that includes the Home Office, the DfE and the Department of Health and Social Care.

Operation Conifer: Sir Edward Heath

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 12th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right that an inquiry may well look into such a matter but, as I have just outlined, an inquiry is a matter for the police and crime commissioner.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I understand that the review of Operation Midland cost approximately £200,000. That was a review of Nick’s accusations against Sir Edward Heath and others. What does the Civil Service or others estimate it would cost to review Operation Conifer? If Ministers are not able to give us that figure today—I suspect it is available within the department—can we be assured that we will be given it in a Written Answer?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It would be hard for me to give the cost of a review of Operation Conifer, given that a review has not been commissioned.

Operation Conifer: Sir Edward Heath

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 11th October 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend will know that HMIC, as it then was, could investigate aspects of police operations or the function of the police. It would not be in a position, as I think I have explained previously, to investigate this allegation. I completely recognise the desire of noble Lords to find a solution to this and it is unfortunate that Operation Conifer was not able to resolve conclusively the position in relation to the allegations made against Sir Ted Heath.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, with the attempts to destroy the reputations of Sir Edward Heath, Paul Gambaccini, Sir Cliff Richard, Harvey Proctor, Leon Brittan, Lord Bramall and now Greville Janner, on the back of either false or unproven allegations and without a shred of evidence being brought before the courts, and often with statutory compensation in mind, is it not about time that the Government stopped turning a blind eye to these huge breaches of human rights and reviewed the law, particularly in the areas of anonymity and statutory compensation? British justice is being trashed and we are witnesses to it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I absolutely recognise the strength of feeling from noble Lords, particularly in relation to those who have died and are not here to speak for themselves. Of course, if those individuals are dead, any inquiry that might be conducted would obviously depend on the evidence brought before it. The police are operationally independent of government and we must recognise that. The Government would step in only where all other avenues had been exhausted.

Operation Conifer: Funding

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 12th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As regards not being able to libel the dead, that has always been the case, but we keep legislation under review. The reason why this will not be done by HMICFRS is that it can carry out an inspection either of the whole force, part of the force or a particular activity of the force, and in this instance the Home Secretary does not see that this would be appropriate.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 28th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I first thank the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, for securing this debate. He told me he had secured it and thought I might not be very happy, but I am very happy that he secured the debate as it gives us another chance to debate this very important issue that I know is of such importance to noble Lords. Parliament’s only PCC, the noble Lord, Lord Bach, participated in this debate and other noble Lords have spoken. It has been quite a wide-ranging debate—necessarily so—and across the Chamber views have been expressed on a variety of issues relating to the role and responsibilities of police and crime commissioners.

Since the introduction of PCCs in 2012—40 of them in total, as the noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, pointed out—everyone now has a direct say in policing in their area through their locally elected PCC. Police and crime commissioners have brought real local accountability to how chief constables and their forces perform and are working hard to ensure that their local communities have a stronger voice in policing, as my noble friends Lady Seccombe and Lord Wasserman pointed out. I note the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Scriven, about his PCC. Others may have other points to make about theirs, but they operate in the full gaze of the media and must justify their record to the public every four years via the ballot box, as my noble friend Lord Wasserman pointed out.

I was very glad to hear from my noble friends Lord Wasserman and Lady Seccombe about some of the good work that is going on in their areas, and I have seen at first hand what the PCC, who is the noble Lord, Lord Bach, is doing in Leicestershire. This is in stark contrast to the police authorities—I must declare an interest as I sat on a police authority—which were not particularly visible and were not felt to be particularly accountable. I note the point made by the noble Lords, Lord Armstrong and Lord Scriven, about their return, but on a personal level I would not want to see it.

The noble Lord, Lord Scriven, made a point about Ministers stepping in to deal with the lack of democracy in the PCC system. As they are directly elected, PCCs are directly accountable to their electorate, and local communities will have their say at the ballot box when the time comes. Police and crime panels have the appropriate powers to scrutinise the actions and decisions of the PCCs effectively. For instance, panels have a statutory power to request information from PCCs, should that be necessary.

At the 2016 PCC national elections, 9 million votes were cast, and PCCs are currently receiving more than 7,000 pieces of correspondence from the general public every month.

PCCs are also providing an impetus to reform. As we have heard, PCCs such as Vera Baird, whom I have also met, are proposing innovative solutions to delivering policing more effectively. PCCs are taking a lead role in driving collaboration between forces, which is a very welcome change, and with other blue-light partners to deliver more effective services and better value for money for the taxpayer. I have seen that in Greater Manchester and in Leicestershire with the noble Lord, Lord Bach.

As was recognised by the Home Affairs Select Committee in its March 2016 report, PCCs are here to stay and their introduction has worked well to date. I also note the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bach, which I have seen time and time again, that their role has not been politicised. In fact, I have seen PCCs not afraid to challenge their own political party on some of the things that are happening. The police remain independent, and that is very pleasing to see.

A number of noble Lords raised questions concerning the Government’s role in relation to the powers of PCCs. PCCs have been elected by the public to hold chief constables and the force to account, making the police answerable to the communities they serve. The police are, rightly, operationally independent of government. It would not be right for government to intervene in or influence the exercise of a PCC’s functions.

I must reiterate that the exercise of a PCC’s powers in relation to the commission of any specific inquiry must be a matter for the PCC in question. The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, talked about holding the force to account. Section 36 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act places a duty on the chief constable to provide to the PCC any information necessary to hold the force to account.

The noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, made a bit of a side point about drugs. I would expect that from her, as she does things very skilfully. She made a point about drug users being made into criminals by the police. The police and, certainly, the Government primarily want people to recover from drug dependency, as opposed to wanting to make criminals of them.

My noble friend Lord Wasserman asked a very interesting question on recall. It was at the forefront of discussions some years ago, but it is good to hear him bringing it back. There is definitely a debate to be had. However, extending the policy of recall beyond MPs to other elected officers requires careful consideration, and we would need to work with others in elected offices to understand the precedent that might be set.

My noble friend Lady Seccombe talked about neighbourhood policing and working with residents and communities. It is such a valuable aspect of local policing. Whether it is in Salisbury or London, these officers play a vital role in keeping us safe every day. There are many examples of the great work they do.

The noble Lord, Lord Hastings of Scarisbrick, talked about the police being inclusive, the question of maintaining operational independence and the context of unjust and unfair policing towards BME communities. He made a very important point about the diversity of the police. It is important in policing all communities inclusively. I am pleased to say that the proportion of officers from a non-white ethnic group has been increasing in the past decade. I agree with the noble Lord that, to be effective, a force must mirror the community it serves.

The noble Lord, Lord Bassam, talked about diversity of PCCs. It is something that all political parties and none would support in terms of engaging people not only in the policing function but in the political process of choosing their PCC. In 2016, 9 million votes were cast, which was a 67% increase in the number of votes cast in the election in 2012, so the turnout is not high but is on a very good upward trajectory.

The noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, talked about the powers of HMIC. While it might be possible for the PPC or the Home Secretary to commission HMICFRS to review whether an investigation was conducted in a way that met the standards required for policing, we do not believe that it is appropriate for the inspectorate to review all evidence gathered and conclusions reached. On the point of the inspection of Wiltshire, it has consistently reached overall “Good”, although I can understand that noble Lords might not entirely agree with that point.

The noble Lords, Lord Blair of Boughton, Lord Hastings, and others, talked about strategic reviews of the police as a whole. The noble Lord, Lord Blair, pointed out that the last royal commission was in 1962. However, a number of key reports have led to police reform subsequently, including the Scarman report in 1981, Sheehy in 1992 and, of course, the Macpherson report of 1999.

The noble Lord, Lord Bach, talked about addressing the issue of police funding reductions. Prior to the police funding settlement, the Minister for Policing—I have said this at the Dispatch Box on many an occasion—spoke to every police force in England to understand the level of resource required to meet policing needs. We have provided a comprehensive funding settlement, with increasing investment of over £460 million in 2018-19. The noble Lord will recall the Home Secretary saying recently that he absolutely understands some of the pressures which the police have been under, particularly in light of events over the last year or two in terms of terrorist attacks and other things that have happened.

The noble Earl, Lord Listowel, talked about the challenge posed by flawed recruitment processes, and recruiting senior police. The noble Lord, Lord Hastings, may also have mentioned that, or it may have been the noble Lord, Lord Butler—they have been a sea behind me, but it was one of them. The issue of choosing police leaders is so important. People need to be able to demonstrate both leadership and be very good in their policing role. In many ways, a career in policing should be a vocation that is attractive to the brightest and the best leaders in society. The Government want to see police ranks opened up, with flexible entry and exit paths to encourage diversity of experience.

The noble Lord, Lord Birt, asked what the police were doing on moped crime. It is clearly a concern, and I assure the noble Lord that the Government have worked with the police, industry and other partners to develop a comprehensive action plan on what is a very serious problem in our attempt to keep the public safe.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked about the process for complaints against the PCC. Non-serious complaints go to police and crime panels but, as I am sure the noble Lord knows, when complaints are of a serious and criminal nature, they will be directed to the IOPC.

Moving on to the issue of Operation Conifer and the PCC for Wiltshire and Swindon, I have heard of concerns today, as I have heard previously, about the refusal of the locally elected PCC to commission an inquiry into Operation Conifer, which investigated, as noble Lords know, claims of child sexual abuse made against the late former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath. I understand the strength of feeling in this House, which I have heard expressed many times. I fully recognise the desire of those who knew Sir Edward personally to protect his reputation when he is no longer able to do so himself. I understand the disappointment at the PCC’s decision not to commission an inquiry. On the point of enough funding to commission an inquiry, Wiltshire has £17.9 million in reserves.

However, that does not change the Government’s position. It is our view that it is rightly a decision for the PCC and that he has the necessary powers and, as I have just said, the necessary funding. This concerns an investigation led by Wiltshire Police into a past resident of the county. The high profile of that individual does not of itself make this a national issue, but I understand the point about it being of national interest. The Government have no plans to launch an inquiry into how this investigation was conducted. It is still open to the locally elected PCC to do so himself, but it would not be appropriate for the Government to step in simply because he has chosen not to.

It is extremely important at this point to remind ourselves that Wiltshire Police’s own report strongly emphasised that no inference of guilt should be drawn from the fact that Sir Edward, had he still been alive, would have been interviewed under caution in respect of a small number of allegations. I can see the sensitivity and concern that those words have garnered. The purpose of such an interview would have been to gain his account, which would have been as important as other evidence gathered as part of the wider investigation. Because he was being accused of an offence, it would have been important for Sir Edward to enjoy the same protections as anyone else in that position and to benefit from an interview under caution. By doing so, the police are able to advance their investigations, and suspects’ rights are protected. Every day people are interviewed under caution and no action is ever taken against them. However, I can understand the feeling in this case, but as the police rightly noted, an interview cannot and should not be interpreted as a sign of guilt. We need to remember that.

We also need to remember that only a court can determine whether someone is guilty and that when an accused person is deceased and cannot present their own evidence to the court, this is not possible. There is no guarantee, unfortunately, that an independent review of Operation Conifer would provide a definitive answer that noble Lords so understandably seek.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked whether Operation Conifer was referred to the PCC panel for scrutiny, which is a good question. Of course, PCC panels have a role in challenging, scrutinising and supporting each police and crime commissioner. I do not know the answer in the specific case as to whether it did, but it is something that I can take back and ask.

The noble Lord, Lord Armstrong, asked about IICSA, and, of course, the PCC for Wiltshire is of the opinion that IICSA—the Independent Inquiry into Child Sexual Abuse—is the correct commissioning body for such a review. I must reiterate, and I think the noble Lord was alluding to this, that IICSA was established to consider the extent to which institutions in England and Wales have failed in their duty to protect children from sexual abuse and exploitation. It operates independently of government and, within its terms of reference, decides what it investigates and how. It would be inappropriate for the Government to seek to influence those decisions. I think noble Lords are clear—certainly I am—on IICSA’s role, which is distinct from the role of Operation Conifer.

The Henriques report was commissioned by the Metropolitan Police, not the Government, so the recommendations are largely for the College of Policing which sets the standards for policing. We are very grateful for the lessons it has taught us about such investigations. The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, my noble friend Lord Hunt and the noble Lord, Lord Turnbull, made the point about victims. There has been much discussion recently about the approach the police take to allegations of sexual offences and abuse. The College of Policing is currently considering the recommendations of the Henriques report and will announce its response in due course.

Of course, great effort has gone into building public trust in police investigations into the very sensitive and distressing matter of sexual abuse. It is important that this continues. Starting an investigation from a position of doubt is unlikely to encourage victims to come forward. Existing guidance says that when an allegation is received police should believe the account and record it as a crime unless there is credible evidence at the point the allegation is made that determines that no crime has been committed. In this case it should be recorded as an incident.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Can the noble Lord indulge me? I am literally at time and I implore noble Lords not to stop me from talking. Perhaps the noble Lord and I can talk afterwards.

The noble Lord, Lord Rosser, asked whether PCCs can give directions to challenge police constables and, specifically, whether they can set up their own reviews. Our view is that PCCs can establish a review into the conduct of an operation in order to assess the efficiency and effectiveness of the force.

Finally—and I am definitely testing noble Lords’ patience—there is the point about the Home Office being corrupt. Thousands of people work in the Home Office every day. I come across many of them. In every walk of life, most people do their job with great enthusiasm and professionalism. We will always get members of staff who stray from that, but to go as far as saying that the Home Office is corrupt I would strongly deny. I conclude by thanking all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate.

Airports: Border Force

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 26th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is absolutely right that there are immigration officers at e-gates and that e-gates are sometimes closed but, as I explained, this is in relation to the projected flow of passengers across the border, and sometimes if a plane has been delayed, it can create congestion at the border. We have 250 e-gates, but we are investing in staff at the border in the coming year.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The Minister said, “We are making preparations for that”. Is that what she meant by her last statement, or is there more to report to the House?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I anticipated that Brexit might come into this, as it has into every debate we have had for the last few months, so I said that in anticipation of projected increases in demand across the border, and to announce that we will be having a nationwide recruitment campaign of up to 1,000 further officers.

Brexit: Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 25th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty's Government whether they have assessed the value of introducing identity cards following Brexit.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, in 2010 the Conservative-Liberal Democrat coalition decided to scrap the identity card scheme and the associated national identity register because it was expensive and represented a substantial erosion of civil liberties. The Government have no plans to revisit that decision.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, a very interesting question was asked on 3 May by the noble Lord, Lord Empey, who is a convert to ID cards. Recognising the possible difficulties post Brexit for unionists in accepting a de facto border with the rest of the UK at Northern Irish ports, would the introduction of biometric ID cards, across the UK—which includes Northern Ireland—further emphasise their identity and entitlements as UK citizens and help alleviate unionists’ concerns by underscoring their national identity within the United Kingdom? In a way, passports in Northern Ireland will not always be able to do that in the future.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his Question. The status of Northern Ireland’s citizens will remain the same post Brexit and they will still have access to the same identity documents. The Government are committed to protecting the Belfast agreement. One of the successes of that agreement, and the peace process, was to protect the ability of the people of Northern Ireland to identify as British, Irish or both.

Police: Independent Inquiries

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 19th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I stated, the PCC is completely within his powers to initiate such an inquiry.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the correspondence that I drew to the Minister’s attention the other day, we now have access to 10 FoI responses by Macpherson to people in the Wiltshire area. Perhaps I may read one of them:

“Should the Inquiry prove unable or unwilling to take this task on”—


and it has said that it is not willing to take it on—

“I will reiterate my earlier call for the government to establish a judge-led review of the evidence”.

He makes it quite clear there what his position is. That was on 10 October last year, only five days after the publication of the Conifer report. Why do Ministers not bring this man into the department, have a word with him and tell him to get on with the job he was given when he was appointed as the police commissioner for Wiltshire?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I shall certainly take that suggestion forward, to stop myself getting beaten over the head every day over this matter. But more seriously, the noble Lord has very kindly brought to my attention the correspondence received and I have written to the PCC. I have also written to noble Lords, as I said the other day, to make the position quite clear: that he can initiate such an inquiry.

Operation Conifer

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 17th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right that IICSA is mainly looking into institutional failures when it comes to historical child sexual abuse. It is also absolutely true that the PCC himself could engineer such an inquiry. I am sure that he will be aware of the views of your Lordships’ House, which time after time has pressed for that to happen. He should also be aware of what his powers are as an elected representative.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Further to that question, I refer the House to an answer I received from the police and crime commissioner for Wiltshire and Swindon on 13 June last year. He wrote:

“I am however in agreement with you that an independent review of the evidence, perhaps by a retired judge, is required. I am in discussions with the Chief Constable as to how this can be brought about”.


So at that stage he agreed that it was required and set out the procedure for doing it. Then, on 9 October, we had a report by the much respected Fiona Hamilton, crime editor of the Times, in which she quoted Macpherson as saying that,

“he had changed his mind about the prospect of a retired judge, and IICSA was the right place”.

Then we have IICSA saying that it is not within its remit. Surely it is now about time for the Government to intervene. If they cannot agree, and we have people changing their minds when the public interest is at stake, surely it is now time that Parliament and the Government moved in to get this whole mess sorted out. The international reputation of a former Prime Minister is at stake, and the Government are standing aside and doing nothing. It is appalling.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I should make it clear to the noble Lord, as I have in the past, that I have written to the PCC for Wiltshire to outline just what his powers are. I have also written to noble Lords who have come to see me and the Home Secretary and I have met interested parties to outline the process. The police are operationally independent of government and they are clear about what the process is.

Money Laundering

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 19th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

We made it clear during the passage of the Criminal Finances Act that we would certainly not intervene with legislation but would work with the overseas territories and the Crown dependencies to have a register of beneficial ownership with mutual and sometimes almost live-time access for law enforcement purposes.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, have the Government fully thought through how the Russians might reciprocate if we take action against any of their citizens in the United Kingdom?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am sure that they have.

Air Guns

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 5th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In terms of the age range, people using guns have to be over 18. I certainly agree with the noble Countess that anyone who is in possession of a gun for whatever legal purpose definitely should be taught how to use it properly.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the effectiveness of the law is dependent on the level of compliance. Is it not true that the level of compliance in Scotland is very low?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said in my answer to my noble friend Lord Black, we are certainly looking at the regime in Scotland as part of our review and in coming to our conclusions.

Police and Crime Commissioners

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 1st March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly understand why my noble friend has brought this Question forward today, and I understand the frustration felt by him and other noble Lords on this matter. A few noble Lords came to see me about this issue and I wrote to them outlining the position on it. I also wrote to the PCC of Wiltshire and I will outline the position again today. Under Section 79 of the Police Reform and Social Responsibility Act 2011, the Secretary of State has issued a policing protocol which PCCs and chief constables must have regard to when exercising their functions. This protocol provides scope for a PCC to commission an independent review into a force’s investigation to assist that PCC in their statutory duty of holding the chief constable to account. I could not have made the Government’s position on this clearer, and thank my noble friend for his Question.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I refer the Minister back to a point made by the noble Lord, Lord Blair of Boughton, on 11 October, when he said that,

“the Chief Inspector of Constabulary is the person to whom a Government should look for an inquiry to begin into whether this has been done properly”.—[Official Report, 11/10/17; col. 231.]

Was that followed up by the Minister? She has now come up with an alternative of a protocol, which I understand can probably be ignored by police commissioners if they choose to do so. Finally, is not the reality that this Government have stood by, watched and witnessed the total destruction and trashing internationally of the reputation of a former Prime Minister? That is quite outrageous.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I recall the comment of the noble Lord, Lord Blair. If I recall, I answered at the time that the route for such an inquiry would be through the PCC. The position is no different now. The police are operationally independent of the Government and that is the route.

Deceased Individuals: Allegations

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 22nd January 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for that question. I am aware of the report by the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, and the recommendations that it makes. The report itself was commissioned by the Church of England and the recommendations within it are for the Church, so it would not be appropriate for me to comment. However, as my noble friend says, there is a presumption of anonymity. People should not be named unless there is a legal reason for doing so. Of course the principle of innocence until proven guilty is a key tenet of English law, and it is not for me to tell the Church what to do.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, does the Minister accept that there may be circumstances in which an accuser may have compensation in mind in making the accusation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, obviously I cannot comment on any individual case but it may well be that that is the motive.

Operation Conifer

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 11th October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, far be it from me in any way to contradict the noble Lord, but I understand that the PCCs are locally elected and democratically accountable. It is their role to hold the local police and the chief constables to account. Any inquiry or review of the police investigation would be a matter for the PCC and the chief constable.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, Chief Constable Veale says that his investigation—this sham investigation—complied with national guidance. If that is the case, why can the guidance not be reviewed? Is that not the function of the inquiry that we are now demanding? Secondly, when is this man “Nick” going to be prosecuted?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord makes a very good point about false allegations. Of course, they can certainly be dealt with in relation to perverting the course of justice. As for the other question asked by the noble Lord, it is up to the PCC and the chief constable to decide whether a review of the police investigation should be held.

Child Sexual Abuse

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 13th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hear those concerns and I recall the comments that the noble Lord has previously made and written to me, and to the Home Secretary. I am sorry to reiterate the point but the police are independently operational of the Government, so it would not be appropriate for me to comment on a particular case. We are absolutely clear that, where allegations are made, they should be thoroughly and professionally investigated so the facts can be established.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, why are the people who make allegations that turn out subsequently to be untrue not required to pay back the compensation they receive from the Criminal Injuries Compensation Authority, as has indeed happened in the Heath case?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I have gone through the process for what happens with false allegations. It will be up to the determining bodies to decide whether compensation is payable.

Security: ID Cards

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 20th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what consideration has been given to the introduction of ID cards as a contribution to the maintenance of security in the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government have considered the introduction of ID cards and have concluded that they would not contribute significantly to the maintenance of security in the United Kingdom.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, the Government’s policy paper on EU citizens who wish to live in the United Kingdom proposes that up to 3.2 million EU citizens would need to apply for settled status supported by an identity document which could include personal data, a photograph and, according to paragraph 35 of the paper, possibly even nationally recorded biometric data; in other words, a national identity card-like document that will open the door to entitlements. With national security in mind, why not use the introduction of these identity documents as the test bed for a national roll-out of identity cards for us all throughout the country?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have to pay tribute to the noble Lord’s tenacity on this point. He is absolutely right to observe that, as we leave the EU, we are entering new territory. We said in the EU citizens policy paper that all EU citizens and their families in the UK, regardless of when they arrived, will, on our exit from the EU, need to obtain an immigration status in EU law. They will need to apply to the Home Office for permission to stay, which will be evidenced through a residence document. The form it will take may be digital in the longer term, but when introduced it might be similar in format to the current biometric residence permit.

Brexit: UK-EU Movement of People (EUC Report)

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 17th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Are statistics on the removal of EU citizens from the United Kingdom kept anywhere at all?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In answer to the noble Lord’s noble friend on behalf of his noble friend, to unpick it was quite an expensive undertaking. That is the response that I gave his noble friend, but I am quite happy to take that point up with his noble friend if he would like to speak to me about it.

Terrorist Attacks

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as we deal with extremism in all its forms, we look not just at Islamist extremism but at far-right extremism. My noble friend is absolutely right to point out that we cannot forget the events in our recent history that caused such damage in our communities, both here and in Ireland.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, there is a tendency for party political polarisation to dominate this debate about handling terrorism. I wondered whether Ministers saw the interview with my noble friend Lady Chakrabarti during the middle of the election campaign in which she suggested that it might be possible to put together a team of privy counsellors, operating within the rules that apply to them and comprising members of all political parties, to sit down and evaluate these things and then make recommendations, bypassing the Government, directly to Parliament. There is a precedent for this from the late 1940s, when Mr Attlee did precisely that when dealing with national emergencies. Might Ministers consider what my noble friend said and perhaps come forward with some recommendations?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is fair to say, certainly in this House and in the other place, that when events such as this happen, there is broadly a consensus on how we should deal with things. We conflate matters sometimes when we talk about extremism, radicalisation or indeed terrorism and get mixed up in various activities, but the point is that we all seek the same ends. When the extremism commission starts its work, it will seek to get the views of Parliament on its recommendations. I think we all seek the same ends.

National Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 14th March 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what representations they have received from public authorities since 1 January 2017 on the case for introducing national identity cards in the United Kingdom.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government are not aware of receiving any representations from public authorities on the case for introducing national identity cards.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, following the Brexit decision and its possible implications for national identity cards, have the Government not detected the mood change and change in public attitudes on their introduction, not only in the country but in the Commons, in this House and indeed on their own Benches? Why cannot we now sit down and have a sensible conversation with the Government on the way forward? We could start by supporting the application before the Liaison Committee for an ad hoc committee inquiry into ID cards to be set up in this Session of Parliament.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have not detected any more of an appetite for national identity cards since the Brexit discussions began. The Government will certainly have to think about identity post Brexit, but that will be the subject of discussions and negotiations.

Crime: Firearms

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 9th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What my noble friend is referring to has not only a national element to it but also an international element in terms of the multiagency approach. Of course the NCA has regional operations as well, but in terms of keeping the country safe from a national and international point of view the national agencies are very often involved.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Is there not a distinction between a collector who holds illegal weapons and a criminal who holds illegal weapons, and do the stats that the Minister has produced actually draw that distinction?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There is most certainly a difference between a collector and a criminal, and we discussed this at length in the Policing and Crime Bill. In terms of the arrests and the rounds of ammunition, they certainly will be criminal activities. In terms of the other weapons, there possibly is a distinction. I will try and disaggregate that for the noble Lord, although I will not promise as I did to the noble Lord, Lord Rosser.

Passport Applications: Digitisation

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 18th January 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Does this Question not take us straight back to the issue of authenticity of information in national identity documentation? Do Ministers realise that once an amateur takes a photograph, we could end up with civil servants arguing about whether that photograph is an exact image, whether it is dark, whether it was taken at the right angle, and whether it presents an image of the quality necessary to be put into an official document, with the result that they may end up having to return it to the sender for the sender to resubmit it? Is that not a waste of Civil Service time? It will cost the state money.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord points out precisely the criteria that are used to measure quality and are required for photographs. Those security standards are no different in the online application process than they were in the old paper process. There was no more risk of the customer getting it wrong under the old system than there is under the new system.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Report: 3rd sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Monday 12th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Many cases do not come to trial. I was trying to illustrate the reluctance of people to come forward. People are still reluctant to do so, and the Government do not want to create an environment in which we go back to the practices of times gone by, which is why we have so many allegations of historic sex offences.

Noble Lords asked about safeguards, and of course, as my noble friend Lord Faulks said, we have the magistrates’ court and the High Court. We have College of Policing guidance, which states that the police should not routinely release information about suspects before charge. However, it also makes clear that there are limited circumstances in which the release of such information can be justified.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister address the issue that was raised by most of the speakers, on the position of people who commit suicide, whose families break up, whose reputations are destroyed or whose careers end, or who are destroyed in their communities, only because the Government of the day—of both major parties—have insisted on pursuing this arrangement, which is clearly not in the public interest? Will the noble Baroness address the agony of the people involved? The fact that some of them are prominent is not so important. Hundreds—there may well be thousands; we do not know—of people out there suffer similarly.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think I addressed that right at the beginning of my speech, when I said that the Government completely acknowledge the pain that some people have gone through in the course of the last few years—and in the course of history—due to being wrongly accused of crimes which they did not commit. I absolutely acknowledge that point. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, said that it is an incredibly difficult issue, and I recognise that.

I was going to say something else. The College of Policing is currently developing—

Sexual Abuse: Harassment of Suspects

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 8th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I agree with the noble Lord in that we have debated this issue during the passage of the Policing and Crime Bill. We have had some very good debates on it and I understand that there are strong feelings on both sides. However, the point here is that we need to get the balance right. There should be a presumption of anonymity, but in cases where it may allow evidence to come forward or where new victims could feel comfortable in coming forward, it should be the police’s operational decision to release names.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, is the Minister aware that in 2003, when there was a Division in this House on this very matter, the whole of the Conservative Benches voted in favour of not only pre-charge anonymity but anonymity post-trial in the event that someone was found innocent, and up to conviction in the event that they were found guilty? If that is the case, how can the Minister possibly sustain the position that the Government are now taking on the Bill going through Parliament?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, very strong feelings on pre-charge anonymity have been expressed, and I have not in any way sought to dismiss them. The law has changed and we have moved on. However, in the light of some of the allegations of historical sexual abuse—and, as I say, in the light of some of the allegations made this week and last in connection with football—it is important in certain circumstances, bearing in mind that presumption of anonymity, for those names to be released.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can tell the noble Lord that the College of Policing is developing the new authorised professional practice on media relations, which covers the release of suspects’ names. It has consulted extensively on this. The existing guidance is clear that we expect forces to adhere to this. However, responses are being analysed. The APP is due for publication in the new year and the Government will reflect on it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

In so far as, in 2003, the Conservative Benches voted in the way they did, why do not Ministers arrange for a free vote on pre-charge anonymity on Monday, which is the lesser position?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, as I say, over time views on this have changed, and views within parties have changed. The Labour Government had a clear view on pre-charge anonymity. I recognise that it is a very difficult issue. However, I stress that it is important to get the balance right between people’s personal liberty and the need to bring people who might be guilty of perpetrating such crimes to justice.

Policing and Crime Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Committee: 5th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 16th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in the debate. The variety of views on this subject speak to me of just how difficult an issue it is. I also particularly thank the noble Baroness, Lady Brinton, the only woman apart from myself to speak in the debate. This is a very sensitive issue, and many noble Lords have talked about getting the balance right. We think that the Government have got the balance right, and I will explain why.

I shall start with the report by Richard Henriques on the Metropolitan Police Service’s handing of its investigations into allegations of sexual offences by persons of public prominence. That is a further element contributing to the debate. In answer to the point made by my noble friend Lord Attlee, I have been fully briefed on that report. It was commissioned by the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, and as I said to this House the other day, the report—including its publication—is a matter for him and for the force. The commissioner has made a public apology to Lord Bramall, to Lady Brittan and to Harvey Proctor for the impact that Operation Midland had on their lives.

At the outset, let me say that the Government fully understand the anguish felt by those who have had their reputation traduced in the media following unfounded allegations made against them. The notion that someone is innocent until proven guilty is central to our justice system and to the rule of law, so the Government have every sympathy for the underlying aim behind the amendment. I will not go into what should be redrafted, but will talk about the amendment as it stands.

The Government also start from the position that there should, in general, be a presumption of anonymity before the point of charge. I believe that there is also a general acceptance that there will none the less be exceptional circumstances in which the public interest means that a suspect should be named. If there is a divide between noble Lords and myself on this issue, it is not therefore one of principle but is about how best to give effect to the shared policy position. For the Government’s part, we are not persuaded that legislation is the right way forward at this time.

One of the principal arguments put forward in support of retaining the public interest exception is that, as the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, said, there will be circumstances in which the police need to publicise a person’s identity to allow further witnesses to a known offence to come forward, or further unknown offences by the same person to come to light. As he also said, witnesses can come forward at a trial only if there is, in fact, a trial. He also made the further point that the accused could themselves create their own publicity around an event.

As the current Prime Minister said in response to the previous Home Affairs Select Committee on this issue,

“While we are clear that transparency and consistency should be at the heart of the criminal justice system, … we recognise that there is a difficult balance to strike in some criminal investigations between the operational advantages of naming suspects and respecting suspects’ right to privacy”.

As noble Lords will know, the issue of anonymity in relation to sexual offences has been debated in this House over many years. Anonymity for complainants in rape cases was introduced in 1976. It was subsequently extended to sexual offences generally. Anonymity for defendants who have been charged with an offence was introduced at the same time, but abolished in 1988. Defendant anonymity was subject to exhaustive consideration before and during the passage of the Sexual Offences Act 2003.

As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said, in 2010 the then coalition Government published independent research relevant to defendant anonymity in rape cases, which found,

“insufficient reliable empirical evidence on which to base an informed decision on the value of providing anonymity to rape defendants. Evidence is lacking in a number of key areas, in particular, whether the inability to publicise a person’s identity will prevent further witnesses to a known offence from coming forward, or further unknown offences by the same person from coming to light”.—[Official Report, Commons, 12/11/10; col. 27WS].

The coalition Government declined to proceed with introducing defendant anonymity in rape cases unless the evidence justifying it was “clear and sound”. In the absence of any finding to that effect, they reached the conclusion that the proposal did not stand on its merits and would not be proceeded with further.

While the amendment before us would confer anonymity on suspects rather than defendants, I note the preceding history to highlight the challenges we face in coming to an equitable view on this sensitive issue. There are powerful arguments against conferring anonymity on either suspects or defendants of sexual offences simply as a quid pro quo for that enjoyed by complainants. However, I also recognise that those whose identity is made public, be they persons of public prominence or not, may suffer unjustifiable reputational damage. Noble Lords have given many examples of those individuals. While we may personally empathise in individual cases, this should not blind us to the bigger picture and the very significant reasons that underpin the current regime.

As I have said, it is a fundamental tenet of our justice system that everyone is innocent until proven guilty. There must never be an assumption that being charged or arrested for an offence indicates that a person is guilty of a crime. Introducing a statutory scheme for pre-charge anonymity for sexual offences could be seen to undermine that principle. Indeed, while it is true that a suspect who is not further proceeded against in respect of a sexual offence may nevertheless suffer reputational damage, the same may be true of any other serious offence, such as murder, theft or fraud, as noble Lords have said. As with these other offences, it is absolutely right and proper for the police to have operational independence in deciding whether to name a suspect.

The police are guided in making such decisions by the College of Policing’s authorised professional practice material Guidance on Relationships with the Media. The current guidance makes clear that decisions should be made only on a case-by-case basis and the police should not release the names of those who are arrested or suspected of a crime unless there are clearly identified circumstances to justify it. These would include incidences, for example, where there is a threat to life or to assist the police in the detection or prevention of crime.

The College of Policing is currently developing new authorised professional practice on media relations and has recently undertaken a consultation as part of its development. The consultation closed in July and the college expects to publish its response to the consultation in the new year. It would not be right, therefore, for the Government to pre-empt the outcome and we will await the conclusion of the college’s review. However, the Government firmly believe that non-statutory guidance, rather than primary legislation, is the appropriate vehicle for guiding the police in these operational decisions. It is vital that the police are able to exercise their own judgment and act swiftly in the circumstances where releasing the name of a suspect may prevent further harm, for example.

I must emphasise that public reporting of a suspect’s name is unusual, but in certain circumstances the police authorise release so that any other potential victims of a suspect are encouraged to come forward. The introduction of a statutory scheme would hamper the police’s ability to act in this way. We know that such identification can help other victims to recognise that they are not the only ones who have suffered sexual abuse—as the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, rightly articulated—and this might encourage them to overcome their reluctance to come forward. Victims must feel that they are able to come forward and report abuse to the police as well as get the support that they need. We have seen recently an increase in the number of offences recorded. That is thought to be the result of increased willingness to report among victims and action taken by police forces to improve their approach to investigating sexual abuse. As the noble Lord, Lord Rosser, said, convictions for this offence are still woefully low.

In March this year, the chief executive of the College of Policing, Alex Marshall, wrote to all chief officers and PCCs following a number of high-profile cases concerning non-recent child abuse which had focused public attention on the police approach to victims, both at the point of reporting and in investigating the crime. Mr Marshall’s letter put on record that:

“In cases involving sexual offences, substantial efforts have been made to improve the confidence of victims to come forward and report crimes to the police. It is important that progress is not lost”.

I cannot emphasise this point enough. We must not undermine victims’ confidence in our response to sexual offences. Agreeing this amendment could send a message to sexual offence victims that they are less likely to be believed than victims of any other crime. This would be an undeniably retrograde step.

As has been highlighted in the debate we have had today, there are two issues in relation to this matter. The first is the right of the police to name individuals and the second relates to cases in the media where those being investigated, but who have not been charged, have been named. A number of these cases highlighted in the media have been as a result of information being provided not by the police but from other sources. The guidance from the college to the police does not interfere with the rights of the media to publish information obtained from another source, for example, where such information is provided by a victim of crime or a witness to the crime. The press is self-regulated and develops its own codes of practice. Any reporting which breaches an individual’s right to privacy would need to be demonstrably in the public interest. The Government are committed to an independent press, free from government interference. The majority of the press are members of the Independent Press Standards Organisation and are held to account via the Editors’ Code of Practice. The code stipulates:

“Everyone is entitled to respect for his or her private and family life, home, health and correspondence, including digital communications”.

As noble Lords will be aware, we already have a number of remedies in our justice system to redress the balance where individuals feel they have been treated unfairly—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

May I ask the Minister a simple question? She used the phrase,

“demonstrably in the public interest”.

What was demonstrably in the public interest in the naming of Sir Cliff Richard for an offence he did not commit, and Leon Brittan, Ted Heath and Paul Gambaccini? What was demonstrably in the public interest in those cases?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I will not talk about individual cases, and noble Lords would not expect me to do so. I am talking about the code of practice for the press. I have also just talked about the guidance from the College of Policing. We are committed to an independent press. Noble Lords will already be aware that we have a number of remedies in our justice system to redress the balance where individuals feel they have been treated unfairly by the media and others. This includes resolution through the courts.

In conclusion, and for the reasons I have outlined, I am satisfied that there is an operational need for the police to be able to determine whether to name an individual ahead of charge and that adequate provisions already exist in current legislation and practice to safeguard those accused of a crime without the need for legislating for pre-charge anonymity. I hope that at the end of this rather long debate the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

National Identity Cards

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 16th November 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, Her Majesty’s Government have made it clear that there are no plans to reintroduce identity cards, and therefore there is no need to consult the National Police Chiefs’ Council.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, that is very bad news indeed. Now that we have evidence of the availability on the dark web, at a price, of counterfeit passports, driving licences, national insurance cards, credit cards, credit references, NHS treatment entitlement cards, European health insurance cards, utility bills, work permits, bank statements and examination certification, is it not now time to return to the whole issue of national identity cards? We cannot escape this debate any longer.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord mentioned a number of areas in which there is fraud and counterfeiting. I am sure that in terms of identity cards, it is no different in trying to obtain them fraudulently.

Criminal Justice: Anonymity

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 25th October 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I certainly agree with the noble Lord, and in fact we spoke about this very point yesterday. We talked about the need for balance, as well as the responsibility of the media. We can all think of cases where the media have reported in perhaps totally irresponsible ways, so in that sense I concur with what he says.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in her responses to the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, the Minister referred to the public interest, on which this whole argument now turns in my mind. Is she absolutely satisfied that the process by which people determine the public interest is the correct one, and is it not there that the law should be amended?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Thomas—sorry, to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Morris; I will be in trouble twice now with the noble and learned Lord—there is a need to look at the guidance through the consultation, and we will take great interest in what that consultation says. However, the balance of public interest comes when the police need to publicise a person’s identity to allow other witnesses to come forward or further evidence to be brought forward.

Planning: Retrospective Applications

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 15th June 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My noble friend makes a valid point. The whole point of the Housing and Planning Act is not only to get more houses built but to ensure that the planning system is more efficient to enable that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, if the Government had been listening to concerns about the use of secondary legislation, why was it that my noble friend Lord Watson of Invergowrie had to introduce the amendment that he did to yesterday’s legislation? Surely the Government are not listening.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I understand that the Minister replied to that yesterday. I apologise to the noble Lord because I was not here for that debate, but I can reply to him in writing.

Economy: High Street Trade

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 10th May 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank my noble friend for recognising what the Government have done. He talked about various chains going bankrupt and the declining footfall on our high streets. In fact, footfall is now increasing and some high streets have responded very well to the changing patterns of the high street. The ones that have responded well are seeing very good results; for example, in my own town of Altrincham the market has almost completely revitalised the town centre.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

The questioner specifically asked about a turnover tax on online trading. What is the Government’s response to that suggestion?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have outlined the Government’s response to the suggestion, which is that high streets have found numerous ways of responding to the different patterns on our high street. Many chains on the high street are in fact benefiting from things like click and collect.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 23rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, why can we not simply convert the first day of Report into a Committee day and have a proper debate on the day we come back?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I hate to intervene because the hour is getting late. These matters are generally decided through the usual channels. I guess that they are having discussions at the moment and, if the Chief Whip comes in, I am sure he will make a statement to the Committee. For now, can we get on with the Bill?

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, perhaps I might speak as the Minister who is on the Bill. We have spent many weeks on it. The one thing that we do not do is the job of the usual channels. With respect to the noble Lord, I ask him to respect this convention and allow the Chief Whip to make a Statement at 7 pm. In the mean time, could we please get on with this Bill because we all want to go home?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, we now have nine groups which has normally been a day’s work. Are the Government expecting us to finish nine groups within the next hour or so? We need to know where we are going. Within the matter of the last few minutes we have already dropped one string of amendments to suit the House. The noble Lord, Lord Greaves, was prepared to concede one group to help expedite proceedings but we still have all these other groups left. We need a Statement before 7 pm.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will certainly do that. We would also welcome suggestions from the Adaptation Sub-Committee based on its ongoing evidence gathering, as that would obviously help to build up a fuller picture.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am not being unreasonable in asking this but have Ministers fully considered the effect that the cuts in local authorities’ budgets are having on their ability to clear culverts? As they cut back on that clearing programme, they aggravate the problem. Particularly in terms of starter homes, we are now dealing with the more vulnerable buyers—the people who are buying discounted properties and cannot afford to take that risk. I wonder whether Ministers have thought through the consequences of local authorities being starved of cash.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it depends where the culverts are. Clearly some are on private land and some are on public land. Local authorities will expect private developers to clear areas, particularly when assessing flood risk. So, depending on the circumstances, there are various obligations on various stakeholders to undertake some of these matters. However, the noble Lord raises an important point.

Amendment 120 covers any development located anywhere—even in areas where, for example, flood risk had not been identified. The housebuilder would be liable even where floods could not be foreseen. The amendment does not differentiate between causes of floods, so if flood defences were overwhelmed, the housebuilder would be liable. It requires the full costs to be covered, even for those for which the householder’s domestic insurance would provide cover, which I am afraid is a fertile area for dispute between developer, insurer and the housebuilder. It would also cause potential confusion with existing warranty schemes for new homes. However, I take the noble Baroness’s point that development should not add to flood risk and I would like to describe the Government’s approach to that important matter.

Flood risk is an important consideration in the planning system and there are already strong policy safeguards in place. The national planning policy is designed to ensure that if there are better sites in terms of avoiding flood risk or if a proposed development cannot be made safe from flooding, it should not be permitted. Local planning authorities are expected to steer new development to areas at least risk of flooding wherever possible. They should apply this approach through their local plan and in planning decisions take advice from people such as the Environment Agency and other flood risk management authorities, which might include the water authorities.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I completely take the noble Baroness’s point, but I reiterate our point that local planning authorities are expected to steer new development to areas at least risk of flooding. That is not to say that we will not have one-off events. Nowhere is safe from that sort of one-off event.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord, Lord Porter, sitting immediately behind the Minister, brought us into the world of reality. He told us that they will carry on building. That is what he said. So how does the Minister deal with that?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If I have interpreted my noble friend’s words correctly, he tells us that he lives in an area that is quite low lying. We are sitting in an area that is in a flood plain, so it is not at all unusual for areas of high flood risk to be built upon, albeit that London has been built upon for the past 200 or 300 years. Going back to my original statement, the review by Oliver Letwin going forward and the total way in which we approach water management must take on a new meaning. That is not to take away from the noble Lord’s point. I think that my noble friend was making an entirely different point, which is that in some places we build on flood plains.

Where development is necessary in a flood risk area, it must be made safe, without increasing flood risk elsewhere, and be appropriately flood resilient and resistant. We have recently seen examples of where building in one place has increased flood risk elsewhere. Where appropriate, developers need to identify through a site-specific flood risk assessment all the flood risks to and from the development. This should accompany the planning application to the satisfaction of the local planning authority. Our planning guidance, which supports the NPPF, is very clear that all local planning authorities are expected to follow the strict tests set in the framework to protect people and property from flooding.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, my noble friend brings up a really important point, but some of these things will be discussed in the round as we consider how we manage flooding in future. I am sorry—I have lost my train of thought. I wonder whether it is the lateness of the hour. The work of my noble friend’s committee will be invaluable to that thinking.

I come back to the issue of flood resilient construction. Currently, building regulations do not require building work to incorporate any flood-resilience or flood-resistance measures. This is because local authorities can already ensure through plans that measures to address flood risk are incorporated into new development where appropriate. Nevertheless, approved document C of the statutory guidance which supports the buildings regulations promotes the use of flood-resilient and resistant construction.

We recognise the importance of the issue and have asked the Building Regulations Advisory Committee, the statutory committee which advises Ministers on building regulations matters, for its advice on this. I know that the committee has been considering the issues, and we expect to receive its advice shortly.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Baroness said “shortly”. Is there any chance of it before Report?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think I can give that assurance, but I shall certainly try to put a timescale on it before Report, if that suits the noble Lord.

I hope that the noble Baroness will feel able to withdraw her amendment, but I also hope that the Committee will indulge me; I know everyone is anxious to get away. We have spoken about how planning applications for housing can often take an extraordinary time to complete. After some very long nights in this Chamber, I believe people are beginning to say the same thing about planning Bills. I pay tribute to everyone who has spoken in debates today and through the whole course of the Bill so far. The expertise which noble Lords have displayed has greatly enhanced consideration of the Bill, as well as my thinking about how we can improve its implementation.

I know that many noble Lords will not believe me when I say this, but I look forward to continuing the debate on Report. Although we will continue to disagree on some issues, we will, I hope, move closer to agreement on others. Over the Recess, therefore, I shall be tabling a number of government amendments which will take into account some of the points that noble Lords have raised. Given the hour, I will write to noble Lords with further details shortly—and I mean shortly.

I am sorry that the noble Lord, Lord Foster, is not here—oh no, there he is in the corner. I have also written to the DPRRC, responding to its 20th and 21st reports and have placed a copy of that letter in the Printed Paper Office, as noble Lords requested. I am happy to be making a number of positive changes. I will not detail every point here now, because I fear that noble Lords have heard enough from me, but I hope that my response will be helpful.

One final Easter present to you, my Lords, before we rise: within the past couple of hours, we have launched our consultation on starter homes. During Committee, noble Lords from across the House raised a number of questions about the implementation of the starter homes programme. I heard their concerns, and in response we have decided to consult on a number of proposals. We will spend the next eight weeks actively engaging with the housing industry and local government, and I am happy to ask my officials to brief any noble Lord who wants to know more. I have written to noble Lords with further detail and, again, asked my officials to place the consultation in the Printed Paper Office and the House of Lords Library.

That is it for now. I thank your Lordships again for the depth in which we have scrutinised the Bill and wish you a very happy Easter.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 22nd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I support this amendment, because I recognise why this measure was introduced. In parts of the north of England there were lots of shops closing. You could look down a high street and see the first floor of many retail units completely empty. Sometimes they were boarded up, or with ripped curtains and dusty windows: totally unoccupied. The issue has only been one of flexibility. The mistake was that we did not allow local decision-taking. With that at the beginning of the process, this problem would have been avoided.

The statistics on the numbers involved must be available. I presume that the number of units converted from commercial to residential will have entered into the national housebuilding statistics. Can the Minister tell the Committee the exact number involved?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, Amendments 99 and 100 would insert into the Bill requirements on local authorities and others where there are already appropriate protections in national planning policy and guidance to address these issues. National planning policy already incorporates elements of the agent-of-change principle by making it clear that existing businesses wanting to develop in continuance of their business should not have unreasonable restrictions put on them because of changes in nearby land uses since they were established.

The Government recognise concerns about the impact of new residents moving into an area with an established live music venue. As the noble Lord said, my ministerial colleagues met industry representatives in January to discuss this matter. We have responded to their concerns by including a provision in the office-to-residential permitted development right. This enables local authorities to ensure that mitigation measures address noise impacts from existing businesses on the residence. It will both help to protect residents’ amenity and to ensure the sustainability of established businesses.

The noble Lord asked about Scotland and Wales. Of course, planning is devolved there. He also asked if there is a plan to apply new prior-approval measures in relation to noise impact to new builds and not just to buildings undergoing a change of use. The permitted development rights take effect on 6 April and apply to changing the use of buildings from office to residential. The application for new build residential property will be considered under the NPPF, which incorporates elements of the agent-of-change principles. The noble Lord also asked if the regulations will only allow local authorities to take noise into account, not oblige them to do so. The regulations allow local authorities to take account of noise where it is relevant rather than obliging them, because that would be an inflexible requirement.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

It is very good of the Minister to offer meetings, but we are on the eve of the Recess. The first day we come back we are into Report.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I said I would meet them before Report. This part will not come to Report on day one, which is why I made that offer.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think my noble friend’s principal concern is the effect on Richmond of the permitted development right, but if he wishes to discuss compensation, of course I will discuss it.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

In the event that the Minister meets her officials during the Recess, instead of meeting the two noble Lords, she might care to write to us all and tell us what recommendations are being made. It might save us a lot of time.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am very happy to write to noble Lords on the back of a discussion.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 14th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On that matter, what happens if the working group comes up with conclusions which we are unable to resolve during the course of Committee or Report because the group reports after the Bill becomes law? What happens in those circumstances? That is my first question.

My second question is this. The Minister may recall that we were given an undertaking—two weeks ago now, I think—that we would receive information on starter home demand figures in the various parts of the United Kingdom. Despite repeated references to them in the Chamber by me and others, we have simply not received them yet.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Before the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, stands up, that is on the list for the end of the week, definitely.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will bear the noble Lord’s point in mind. It has just come to me that I may have sent that list to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, last week, so it may be in his post pile today.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I looked for it.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If the noble Lord cannot find it, I am happy to resend it.

I think noble Lords for their contributions on the amendments. I understand the pressures faced by rural communities, about which we have spoken a lot in your Lordships’ House, which are many and complex. I am pleased that we are taking time to consider them again today. Amendments 66D and 67A propose that housing in a rural area be excluded, or excluded if it would not be reasonable to expect at least one new affordable home to be built in the same or an adjoining parish for each property sold.

Turning to Amendment 68D, we have discussed the need for new homes across the country and the particular pressures in some housing markets in both rural areas and some of the high-value urban centres, including London. However, we have also heard many arguments on the protection of rural areas and the need for Government to continue to ensure that we do not adversely impact rural communities with large amounts of new housing. We come to the conundrum of not being able to have it both ways: we can build more housing across the country, including in rural areas, or we can restrict where housing is built. That is an issue that we need to consider.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend makes a very good point.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is there evidence of that from any other legislation which has been subject to a sunset clause?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I have said what I can say on this matter. I recall legislation that has gone through this House with a sunset clause for a very specific purpose.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, before I turn to the amendments I want to outline the Government’s latest position on the policy for high-income social tenants, which I outlined in a letter late last week. I hope this will address some of the concerns from noble Lords, particularly those who have stated their opposition to the policy and the clauses in the Bill.

I recognise and share the concern about the level of detail that has been brought forward with regard to our policy for high-income social tenants. My priority over the past few weeks has been to finalise key aspects in order to give that detail. This is particularly important, as the greater part of the policy will be set out in secondary legislation. Although I do not have regulations to share with noble Lords today, I am able to set out a significant amount of detail about what will be included in those regulations.

I am clear that secondary legislation is necessary for this policy, as we need the ability to keep the policy under review and bring forward changes in future based on a thorough review of the effectiveness of the policy and its impact. I am sure that that will be supported.

It is fair to ask how the legislation will be used in the first place. Before I turn to that, I remind the Committee of the Government’s reasons for introducing the policy. The 2015 Budget set out that households in social housing on incomes of £30,000 or above nationally and £40,000 or above in London would be required to pay a higher amount of rent if their current rent was below the market value. It is simply not right that social tenants continue to benefit from lower rates of rent as their income rises when households in the private sector on comparable income levels do not have this luxury. Households in the private sector on those kinds of incomes would, in many cases, be expected to pay the market rent. This is fundamentally unfair when it is those same taxpayers who are contributing to the lower rents enjoyed by tenants on similar incomes in the social sector. The position cannot continue.

Many taxpayers will be surprised to learn that there are more than 40,000 households in the social sector on annual household incomes of over £50,000 a year who are continuing to benefit from taxpayer-funded lower rents. Of course, that figure is at the top end of the household income scale, and we recognise that there are far more social households in receipt of incomes between £30,000 and £40,000 a year. We have always recognised that we must not damage the incentive to keep and find work, as the noble Lord, Lord Foster, says, and I know this important aim will be shared by many in the Committee. Households earning above £30,000 should be able to contribute a little more towards their housing costs, and it is on that basis that we consulted in October 2015 on a proposal for a taper to ensure that rents would increase gradually above the proposed income thresholds.

There was a strong level of support for the proposed taper, with just under 90% of respondents to the question supporting the proposal. I am pleased to be able to confirm to the Committee that the Government will be introducing a taper, and we will use regulations to set out the design of the taper. There are a number of ways in which this could be done. For example, a taper set at 20% would mean an extra 20% in rent for every £1 earned above the income threshold. A taper set at 10% would mean an extra 10% in rent for every £1 earned above the threshold. Both examples would mean that, for households just above the starting income thresholds, the rent rise would be a few pounds each week, not the doubling of rental payments that has been a prominent accusation in recent weeks. I am sure the Government’s confirmation of the taper will provide some reassurance to members of those households who have been worried that rents will jump straight to market rental values.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, perhaps I may finish this statement and then the noble Lord can intervene.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, mentioned a lady who wrote to her who was a housing association tenant. Of course, this measure would not apply to her.

Of course, for those households earning far more than the proposed starting thresholds, the rent increases would be greater. However, the taper will reflect what we consider to be the best balance between ensuring fairness between the social and private rented markets, and protecting the incentive to find and keep work.

I should take the opportunity to remind the Committee about the Government’s home ownership offer to social tenants, particularly those on the kind of incomes we are talking about. If a social tenant were to make the move into home ownership, via either Right to Buy, shared ownership or Rent to Buy, the policy for higher rents simply would not apply to them. This is an important message.

The consultation also asked for views on how the administrative costs for local authorities should be dealt with. The proposal was to allow local authorities to retain a reasonable amount of admin costs, and I can confirm today that the Government will honour this proposal—the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, asked about this. Further work with local government is necessary to understand what the actual costs will be, and we will explore in detail how to implement a policy that minimises the burden on local authorities.

Moving forward over the next few months, the priority for my department is engagement with local authorities and housing associations. The work will inform much of the rest of the regulations and will be focused on three key areas: how “income” is defined for the purposes of the policy; how market rents should be established; and the process for returning money raised from local authorities to the Exchequer. I assure noble Lords that we want a policy that is workable, and this is why the engagement work is so important. I will pick up on these areas in more detail as we move through the amendments.

I hope that these opening remarks have been helpful to noble Lords and that some reassurance has been provided on key aspects of the policy on the taper and the treatment of admin costs.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right. I had not realised that I had made that error. At this point, I shall let the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, intervene.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I think that the noble Lord, Lord Best, said that he thought that the Government were minded towards the lower taper. If he thought that, he must have had some indication, either from officials or from within the department. Has any discussion gone on and who is privy to it?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think that the noble Lord spoke in hope rather than anything else. I have not had private conversations with him about what those figures would look like. I am sure he will speak for himself if he wishes to do so.

The amendments would give local authorities the option to adopt a voluntary policy for high-income social tenants. While I understand why this may seem an attractive way forward, particularly for local authorities, a voluntary approach does not help achieve our aim of a consistent and fair approach for all local authority tenants.

Amendment 69C, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake, Lord Best, Lord Kennedy and Lord Stoneham, would give local authorities the choice about whether to raise rents for high-income social tenants. As I have explained, the policy will be mandatory for local authorities to ensure fairness and a consistent approach.

It may be that noble Lords have in mind that the policy will still be voluntary for housing associations, and it may help if I provide more detail on that decision—this goes to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Foster. I am sure that noble Lords are all aware that following the reclassification of the housing association sector as public by the Office for National Statistics, the Government have taken the necessary steps to persuade the ONS to reverse that decision. This means not putting in place controls over the sector, and there are clauses elsewhere in the Bill that aim to deregulate it. Part of this approach is to make sure that we do not tell housing associations how to run their business and, on that basis, we cannot force them to operate a pay-to-stay policy. However, we want as many housing associations as possible to operate a voluntary policy, and my department is taking forward discussions with the National Housing Federation and housing associations to ensure that the majority do so. Early indications are that housing associations are interested in adopting a voluntary policy and, as these conversations develop, I will bring forward more detail.

The noble Lord, Lord Foster, asked about the data from the right to stay—I think he called it—in 2012. We did not collect those data because so few housing associations and local authorities operated it, and that is still the case today.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I take the point made by the noble Baroness. I can give her that confirmation today.

The noble Baroness, Lady Hollis, talked about the problems relating to data sharing. We will come on to this issue in a later group. Suffice it to say for now that HMRC will not collect any new information. The landlords collect it and confirm it with HMRC. It is a criminal offence to disclose HMRC data unlawfully, but as I say, we will come on to this matter in a later group.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister answer the direct question I asked of her? Is it true that private companies will have access to information on the incomes of council tenants where the total income of the household exceeds £30,000 a year? The answer to that is yes or no.

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[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The answer is yes. The landlord will collect the information and confirm it with HMRC, which is slightly the other way around, if that makes sense. As I say, perhaps we should leave the discussion about HMRC—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Having agreed that that is the case, will the noble Baroness confirm that this is the first time in history that that has happened?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, landlords collect the information and they send it to HMRC. It is not a question of HMRC collecting any new information; HMRC will not be doing that. Perhaps we should park the HMRC issue because we will come on to it in a later group.

I turn to Amendment 70D tabled by among others the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Beecham. This would give local authorities a choice about how to set rents for high income social tenants. Taken together with previous amendments that seek to make the policy voluntary, this would mean that a number of different approaches would be taken up and down the country. As I have said, that is not our preferred route as we want a consistent approach for all local authority tenants. This is best achieved by the introduction of a taper, which I hope I have covered thoroughly already. Regulations under this clause will be used to confirm the taper.

Housing associations will be free to decide on the most appropriate level of rent, although we hope that the majority will copy the approach of the taper that will apply to local authority tenants. The housing associations we have spoken to have suggested that this will be the most likely scenario.

Amendment 70E would enable local authorities to decide how rents should be set, presumably after they had taken the decision on whether to adopt a policy. I refer the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, back to the previous discussions and the commitments I have given on rents by way of a taper. This will apply to all local authority tenants and will link rent rises to increases in household income.

Amendment 75C, tabled by among others the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Kennedy, would change the status of the guidance issued by the Secretary of State. Local authorities will be very clear that if they are to be required to operate the policy, they need guidance about the steps they should take. The purpose of guidance will not be to prescribe exactly the processes and technical support needed to operate the policy within an authority but it may set out, for example, how income has been defined under the policy and the types of evidence that may be acceptable to help to verify declarations made by tenants. I am sure that noble Lords will be interested in any guidance that we intend to issue, and I will certainly share it when it becomes available.

Amendment 79C is concerned with the approach for non-declaration of rents by social households. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, for the amendment and I will turn to the reasons for the power in a separate part of the debate. This amendment seeks to make the power voluntary for local authorities, but we believe that where action is needed for tenants who do not declare, the approach should apply consistently across the country. We are considering how this power could also be used by housing associations in discussion with them, and I am clear that there should be a fair and consistent use of the approach for non-declaration.

Finally, Amendment 81, tabled by the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, would mean that payments made to the Government under the policy could not be based on an estimate of the rental income increase or on a formula approach based on a set of assumptions. We have not taken a decision on the approach as further engagement with local authorities is necessary. I think that also answers the point put by the noble Baroness, Lady Hollis. However, there needs to be flexibility in the power to ensure that the most appropriate approach can be taken. I will carefully consider both the benefits and the drawbacks to an approach based on actual receipts and one based on estimates. Engagement with local authorities will continue over the next month, and the issue of how to return money will be at the top of the agenda. We will listen carefully to the arguments before making a decision.

As I have said, I recognise why there is a desire for local authorities to operate this policy voluntarily, but I hope I have done enough to persuade noble Lords why that would not be the best way forward. The Government have a clearly stated policy that high income social tenants should pay a fairer level of rent. On that basis, it is only fair that it should apply consistently across local authority tenants. I have outlined why we cannot do the same for housing associations, but that we are working closely with them to ensure they take up the policy. Alongside this, I have provided confirmation of our commitment to a taper that will meet a reasonable level of the costs of operating the scheme for local authorities. On that basis, I ask that the amendment be withdrawn.

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[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, Amendment 79, which was tabled by my noble friend on the Front Bench, took my eye. It provides that the definition of,

“high income cannot be set at a level lower than median incomes”.

As I understand it, the effect of that would be to raise the threshold by from about £30,000 to £40,000 on properties outside London and from £40,000 to more than £50,000 in London.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, could the noble Lord repeat that? I could not quite hear the beginning of what he said.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Amendment 79 states that the definition of high income cannot be set at a level lower than median incomes. That would raise the thresholds, would it not? I do not like the system at all, but that at least raises the level at which people would start to pay a higher rent. Will Ministers seriously consider that amendment?

I really want to talk about Amendment 72, which provides that the amount of rent to be charged to high-income tenants is,

“to take into account the need to promote socially cohesive and mixed communities”.

That is a very important issue. The other night, I was talking about what happened in west Cumberland, when I was minded to support right to buy early in the 1980s. Some of the estates in my area had a high density of renting populations, and I did not believe that was particularly good for social cohesion. I believed at the time that the introduction of the right to buy in areas such as mine in the north of England would help social cohesion by widening aspiration within communities.

The provisions of the Bill make me worry that as property is subsequently sold, which is what will happen, there will be pressure due to higher rents being demanded. In employment law, I think it is called constructive dismissal; in this field, I would call it constructive eviction. That is what people will feel: they will be all but evicted by the requirement to pay higher rents.

I am losing my train of thought. Perhaps I should give in at this stage. I will retake my seat and gather my thoughts. I am very sorry.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

What is the latest estimate of the number of households above the £30,000 and £40,000 thresholds? There must be a government estimate. If there is an estimate, does that not suggest that the work has already been done on the exemptions; otherwise, they would not have been able to produce an estimate?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I have the figure for London, as the noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked for it. There are around 46,000 social tenant households with incomes of over £40,000 in London, but that does not presume exemptions.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

And outside London?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not know. I will get that figure to the noble Lord.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

As I said, details on regulations and timelines will be with noble Lords before the end of the week.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Does it not mean that in effect, there will be year-end rent bills for tenants?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is in the detail.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 14th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shipley (LD)]

My Lords, my name is attached to Amendment 80A, but I fully subscribe to the points that have been made so far about Amendment 80. A range of issues is involved and the Government would do well to think very carefully about that. I will come back to that in a moment.

On the assumption that HMRC has a role, Amendment 80A simply says that,

“an arms-length management organisation, tenant management organisation or local housing company wholly owned by its local authority which is managing social housing”

should also be counted in terms of being bodies which can receive information from HMRC. It is not clear in the Bill so far that that is the case. I suspect that is an oversight, but I look forward to the Minister’s confirmation that that indeed is the case.

There is, however, a broader issue about the role of HMRC. There is the role of third parties getting access to private information and the control of that. That has been very well put by noble Lords in this grouping so far. However, there is another one which I think has to be looked at very carefully. That is how the information flows from HMRC in the first place, the reason being that with tax returns, for example, it may be straightforward for many individuals but for some, perhaps self-employed people, it may not be, and people have to file tax returns months after the tax year, so there could be significant levels of fluctuation in people’s income.

We have heard all the arguments around this, of peaks and troughs during the year and so on. A lot of thought needs to be given to this issue about the security of data and the bureaucracy that is being created. We heard in the last group about reimbursement of costs to local authorities for the work they have to undertake. Of course, there are ways of getting round this—a number have been suggested. I hope the Minister will take very seriously the fact that we do not want to create an enormous bureaucratic structure to deal with this when there are simpler methods to achieve the objective.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure that all noble Lords will be pleased that this is a smaller group than those we debated earlier. It concerns the role of HMRC in relation to data sharing on income.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked if we had consulted with HMRC and the Information Commission. I can confirm that we have.

I will start by outlining the purpose of Clause 81. The power has been taken to enable data sharing between Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs and local authorities if it is necessary to verify the income details provided by tenants. This could be achieved directly between HMRC and local authorities, or the Government could choose to set up a body to make the transfer of data simpler. Noble Lords have raised concerns about private companies using income from tenants for purposes other than verification. I can reassure noble Lords that there is no intention to share the details of tenants directly between Government and private companies.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Directly.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope I will give further comfort to the noble Lord.

The HMRC data-sharing powers allow a sharing of income information for the landlord’s purposes under this policy only. If the landlord shares the information with anyone else, powers in the Bill could see criminal proceedings brought against them.

It may be that noble Lords have in mind that local authorities already contract their services out to private companies to collect personal information on income, and that they may do the same for the operation of this policy. Those authorities which contracted out services would have very clear rules in place about that function. The powers in the Bill do not cover that function. I therefore assure noble Lords that we take data security very seriously.

Amendment 80 would remove the subsection which allows HMRC to disclose information to a public body which has been given an intermediary function between HMRC and local housing authorities. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for this amendment, as it gives me an opportunity to provide greater clarity over the subsection’s purpose. The intention is to enable data sharing by HMRC and local authorities for the purpose of income verification in the most appropriate way. The clause enables the function to be passed to a public body to act as a gatekeeper of information.

We are developing our thinking around how this function would operate in practice if it is needed. We want to retain flexibility in the Bill so that we can put processes in place to help local housing authorities implement the policy in a streamlined and efficient way. This may involve the creation of a public body to carry out that function on behalf of others.

The aim of this provision is to make the process as simple as possible to implement if HMRC needs to share information. I hope that noble Lords will understand that, should it be necessary to do it via a public body, that option should be available.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My understanding, my Lords, is that it will be private data to a public body.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

If Capita were appointed by the local authority, could it in any circumstances learn of the income of a council tenant?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It could, but it could not share it. Anyone who holds data on another person is obviously restricted by certain rules. In this case, I have made it very clear that it is a criminal offence for that body to share data about the tenant to anyone other than, let us say, HMRC.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Just to clarify this a step further: would a young lad or young lass in the office have access to documents on the income of a council tenant if they worked for Capita?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not know whether the name would be available. I can certainly provide—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

They would know the property.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

They might know the address of the property. I do not know whether data protection rules would allow all the detail on that person to be shared or only the relevant detail relating to their income.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

Yes, it cannot work.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not sure that I entirely follow the noble Baroness, but that may be my deficiency rather than hers. Local authorities hold vast swathes of data about various things. I know also that the holding of data is tightly controlled, particularly in terms of sharing. I would say therefore to noble Lords that to share data more broadly than is allowed is already a criminal offence.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My noble friend is talking about people who are not in the benefits system at all, and yet their salaries or earnings can be scrutinised by a private employer.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do not know how their information could possibly be scrutinised by a private employer because it is shared between HMRC and the public body.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The point I was making is that I can tell a house that has been bought because generally these are in very good condition. I am not starting to make the argument about houses that are then sold on through subsequent sales, I was just making a comment to the noble Lord, Lord Bassam, about people taking pride in their homes. I am sorry to restrict the noble Baroness but I do not want to be diverted on to that point.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister said before, in reply to an intervention, that the reduced usage of rooms would be a consideration on review if someone left. What other considerations would the local authority have in mind in that review? Is it just reduced usage of rooms?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, we will be coming to that, if the noble Lord will bear with me. I have some news for the noble Lord, Lord Bassam: the guidance will be published in time for the commencement of the provisions.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 10th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Kennedy, and hope I might be able to perhaps provide some comfort to noble Lords. The secondary legislation will be subject, obviously, to parliamentary scrutiny. We want to set it out as soon as possible but we also want to ensure that it is correct and informed by accurate data. I cannot provide exact timescales for secondary legislation at this stage but I will do my best to provide further information on this on Report. I know that that is not perfect, but I hope noble Lords will accept what I say at this point. I will do my best.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Would it be appropriate for the Minister to ask the Leader of the House to make a Statement to us next week on exactly where we are? We cannot handle legislation in this way. If the Minister is obviously not in a position to deal with it, it should be taken up in the Cabinet by the Leader of the House.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not sure about the Leader making a Statement. I am certainly making a statement as to my intent. I know that noble Lords are not happy, but I will bring forward what I can when I can. As I say, I will elect to have details ready on this by Report.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister referred to a local authority level. Will there be some local authorities that will be designated as not having any high-value stock at all?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that might well be the case, depending on how it looks when all of the data are analysed, but I will not anticipate what the data will show. Theoretically, it could be the case.

If we can use the value locked up in the housing to find more places for people to live, then we should be doing so; 10% seems to be an arbitrary figure and it is not clear at what point in time this 10% would be calculated. We believe that we should base our decisions on evidence. That is why we have undertaken a large data-gathering exercise to determine the value of each council home and intend to use that information to set the definition. That is a fairer approach.

Finally, the changes proposed by Amendment 66 would provide that housing cannot be high value if its sale value is less than the cost of providing another home of the same number of bedrooms in the same local area. That is why, theoretically, the answer could be yes. We do not want to tie local authorities to an expectation that new housing should mirror that which has been sold, which this amendment would do. This may not be what is needed in the area, and we believe there should be flexibility to ensure that new housing is delivered that meets need. However, we want local authorities to sell their higher-value vacant housing, so that part of the receipt can be used to fund the building of much-needed additional homes that better meet housing need.

We recognise that there would be a perversity about requiring a house to be sold that would not generate sufficient receipts to cover the specified costs and deductions, the element for funding additional homes and the receipt to government to support the voluntary right to buy for housing association tenants. We will be looking at the data we have collected carefully to ensure that that is not the case. I hope that this provides some surety to noble Lords and provides some explanation of why we cannot accept this amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I shall suggest another scenario. Let us take my former constituency area of Workington. The council is Allerdale. Three-quarters of Allerdale is fairly poor, but it includes the town of Keswick where there are some very high-value council properties which never change hands. People do not give up a house in the national park readily. Yet, as I understand the arrangement, that authority will be levied on the basis of homes within the national park which are almost never sold. Is that fair?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I have just agreed, in a sense, with the noble Lord that we want to guard against some of the problems that he outlines.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 10th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister confirm that this will all be in regulations, none of which we in this House will be able to amend?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The most important part of this is that discussions with your Lordships and local authorities will inform the regulations.

[Baroness Hollis of Heigham]

If the Government are placing crucial policy decisions beyond the possibility of amendment in this House, because instead of being embedded in primary legislation they are going to be carried by SIs, any attempt to amend them in whatever form will produce synthetic outrage down the other end, and we will be told we should accept them whether we like it or not. This will not do. I absolutely understand that the Minister cannot be happy at the position in which she has been placed: she is essentially being asked to bring forward framework legislation, yet again, in which the heavy lifting will be carried out by SIs, which this House—which is supposed to scrutinise those SIs—cannot touch. Issues which could have been amendable in the appropriate way in primary legislation will be put beyond our reach.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

That will put some of us in a very difficult position. Some of us always refuse to vote on fatal Motions, but we will have no option but to do so because of the whole way this Bill has been handled.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

One thing I will commit to is to meet with noble Lords before the draft regulations come in, on as many occasions as will be necessary to go through the various regulations that may be coming forward.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 8th March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Talking about looking forward to information, last week we were promised some statistical information on starter homes, but we have not received it. I wonder what is happening.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I did promise the noble Lord information on starter homes. I will be bringing it forward in due course, but I have not got it ready for today. I have not forgotten my commitment to him.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister keeps repeating that, but it is just not true. People will not have the right to buy. Only some people will have the right to buy. That is different.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the equity loan is not a discount. It is an equity loan. It is an entirely different mechanism. The discount gives an upfront reduction, whereas with an equity loan after five years you would have to start to repay it with interest. It is not comparing like with like. They are two different mechanisms.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for Amendments 38 and 39, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, and the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for Amendment 46. I will address them together.

I am very clear that starter homes are a new product. They are a manifesto commitment designed to serve a pressing new need. Clause 2 sets out the key parameters: a starter home is available to first-time buyers, under 40—the very gap that the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, referred to—at a minimum discount of 20% of market value and are subject to a price cap.

The proposed amendments would replace the minimum 20% discount on the open-market value with affordability criteria based on average local household income. Any discount would remain in perpetuity. This amendment would remove the 20% discount on local market values. I cannot support that as 20% is a minimum discount and, if they wish, councils would be free to negotiate with developers for a higher discount if that was best for the area. There is evidence that they do that at the moment for affordable housing.

Much was said at Second Reading and on Tuesday about the affordability of starter homes. Research on affordability by Shelter and Savills for the Local Government Association was based on median house prices in each region. I question whether first-time buyers access the market at average house prices, as I pointed out the other day. Starter homes will be valued to align with local house prices for first-time buyers aged under 40. We are working with the sector and professional bodies to ensure that a transparent process is agreed for valuation.

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, talked about the Shelter report, which is not out yet—he must be a very important person, as I have not seen it yet. I will be interested to see it when it is published but I must point out that we all agree that London is expensive. I do not think that anybody denies that. In response, I would point out that we estimate that starter homes will be accessible to those with a gross household income of £45,500 in the south-east, as I added up badly yesterday, and of £39,500 in the east of the country.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, challenged the Government’s figures on this question of affordability. I think that he quoted a figure of 68% in one case, which is different from the figures that the Government are giving. The Minister said that she was going to have a look at the report. Will she come back at the next stage, when she has seen that report, and give us an explanation of why there is a difference in the stats?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I can, my Lords. We can all argue about statistics and, given that I have not seen the report, it is very difficult to make a comparison of the different figures. However, I will do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I do not think that anything changes there. Nobody would promote any louder than I the view that local areas know best but local areas also know that government has certain expectations of them, and it has ever been thus.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, asked me for a breakdown of demand. I elected earlier on to provide that in due course and I will write to him. I do not have it at my fingertips at this point.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will it be there next week?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will try for next week and see what is in the art of the possible.

We have examined the affordability of homes to those who are currently in the private rented sector. If they were to buy a new-build property in the lower quartile of the first-time buyer market outside London, up to 60% of households which are currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home, compared with 45% who could buy a similar property—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

That is the figure being challenged.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

That is the figure being challenged and we will return to it later but in the absence of seeing the report and its figures, I cannot comment on that report at this time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think I have been over the arguments many times. As I say, this is a new product introduced by the Government, a manifesto commitment to help that demographic which has been so disenfranchised by the buyers’ market, and it will help those people to get on the housing ladder. I know that we disagree, but everyone in this Chamber has talked about the particular difficulties of London, and that is why the equity loan guarantee scheme is being extended to 40% in London.

The restrictions imposed by permanent discount can make it more difficult to sell and to move on—I have gone through that earlier today. If a property can only ever be sold at a discount, can the owner easily move upwards to a larger home or to a new area? We want to ensure that the opportunity of home ownership comes with future choices and mobility, and not with more constraints. This is central to our vision for first-time buyers: a genuine discount that provides a genuine opportunity for the long-term future. As I have said, this is particularly important for young people, and we intend that starter homes will continue to be provided until 2020 and well beyond—obviously, we cannot commit a future Government to the priorities of the current Government, but that is our intention. A new supply of starter homes will become available for future first-time buyers, who will benefit from the same opportunities as the earlier buyers.

I will now turn to Amendment 41A, which introduces an alternative to the Government’s five-year restriction on sales, and the in-perpetuity model put forward under Amendment 46. This proposes that a 20-year taper is attached to starter homes where a buyer secures an uplift in value of 1% for every year of ownership. However, under this amendment, a couple in their mid-30s buying a starter home as their first house would need to stay there until their mid-50s to realise the full uplift in the value of their property. This seems like a significant restriction on their future mobility and does not support our ambitions for starter homes. Such long-term restrictions would make it more difficult to sell and move on. If the property is sold at a discount, can the owner easily move upwards to a larger home or to a new area? If people find it more difficult to move on, I question whether long-term restrictions will benefit future occupiers.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Would not such people still get the benefit of house price inflation, irrespective of the discount?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, they would. But the principle behind the Government’s initiative is that within a few years people can start to move up the property ladder, but we want to help them to move on rather more quickly than the noble Lord suggests.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

So people in this particular group who might be subject to deflation are again picked out to be treated specially: they will have their deflation subsidised by others.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, this is all relative. When house prices come down, the next house up on the ladder will also be cheaper. Under the proposal of the noble Lord, Lord Best, after five years the couple in question would benefit from a quarter of the discount. I accept that after 20 years they would benefit from the whole discount. I know there is not agreement in the Committee about this, but we want people who work hard and want to move up the housing ladder to be able to do so.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I did not disagree with the noble Lord. I pointed out the various things that were available, such as shared ownership and affordable rented properties.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

There is Section 106.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

There is Section 106, if it is viable for the scheme. There is £20 billion going into the housing market, of which £8 billion is for starter homes. It is one of a number of parts of the jigsaw, but the Government are very keen to promote it. We do not shy away from that: we want people to get on and move up in a reasonable time.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I wonder if I might intervene again. In some ways I find myself at odds with much of this debate. I do not think that people understand what happens with Section 52 agreements. The noble Lord, Lord Deben, understands them, but I think he was in the department when they were brought in. The effect of a Section 52 agreement is that the smaller the locality that applies to a particular planning permission, the lower the demand for the property, which affects the price. Therefore you can have a house in a village which is free of any restriction that is identical to a house which is covered by a Section 52 agreement, where the locals-only agreement is so containing that it might cover only a few hundred yards, depending on the parish, and one house might be half the price of the other.

I thought that the objective of the people behind this amendment was to ensure that local people were provided for long term in property within their community. I would be a little concerned if we concentrated on development in villages which was simply about rental. I have no problem at all with people buying in villages as long as they do not come in as outsiders and inflate the market, driving up the price. However, if you can create an arrangement whereby, because of Section 52-type agreements, the price is contained within very restricted localities, you can then contain the price and stop huge price inflation bringing in the very people to which some Members of the Committee have taken exception during this debate.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Cameron, Lord Kennedy, and Lord Stoneham, and thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. They give me the opportunity to set out how we think starter homes can contribute to the important rural housing agenda.

Noble Lords have articulated very well how rural areas have a series of challenges, including being dominated by perhaps a certain age group or second-home owners, and seasonally dominated—I can think of one place in Cornwall, Mousehole, which I am sure the noble Lord, Lord Cameron, knows well, which is almost deserted in the winter and packed so full in the summer that you can hardly move. Further challenges are how the few people that live there sustain themselves during other times of the year and how key workers can be brought in to fulfil certain essential jobs, and so on.

Amendments 50A and 50C are both concerned with rural exception sites. Young first-time buyers face significant affordability pressures in many rural areas, so we want the development of starter homes to make a significant contribution to housebuilding in these areas. The use of rural exception sites is an established means for supporting sensitive housing growth where it is locally supported and meeting local needs. It is very important to underline that. We do not want to undermine the operation of rural exception sites.

Our rural productivity plan, which was published last August, set out priorities for growing the rural economy and the need to increase the availability of housing in rural towns and villages to help them thrive. In our consultation on changes to the NPPF we have consulted on amending the policy on rural exception sites to allow starter homes to be included. The current policy allows for some market housing on rural exception sites to enable some cross-subsidy of affordable housing, and we have tested at consultation whether this mix should include starter homes.

We also consulted on allowing local planning authorities to have the flexibility to require a local connection test on rural exception sites. This reflects the particular needs of rural areas, where local connections can be important and access to the housing market for working people can be difficult, as a number of noble Lords have pointed out. It would also reflect the current local connection tests on rural exception sites.

My noble friends Lord Deben and Lord Young talked about philanthropic landowners; the question of whether they will continue to bring forward their land for the best-intentioned purposes needs to be addressed. We have absolutely no wish to switch off the operation of these sites. They can provide a really good mix of tenures, including private housing for cross-subsidy, and starter homes might be another tenure type.

I would like to make several points here. First, many of the sites that come forward in rural areas are small. When we start to deliberate about the site size for starter homes, it may well be that many sites will not be relevant.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think it will be done through amended neighbourhood plans. It also may be done through the NPPF. I will need to come back to the noble Lord on that, because the mechanism is important. I probably would have known the answer about six hours ago but, at this time of the day, I do not know.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Under the starter home arrangements, I envisage in a village half a dozen or a dozen terraced houses sold under this principle, subject to strict locals-only Section 52-type arrangements, whereby there is no great market when you sell at the end of five years and where people have the right of ownership. That enables young families to stay in villages in properties that they own, rather than having to rent.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, six terraced houses would be quite a small site size. It is important for noble Lords to know in due course what the site sizes will mean, and I will let the noble Lord know. I am guessing at this point, but six sounds like a very small site size, and therefore probably exempt.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 3rd March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

May I ask one question? We were told on Monday, I think, that there were so many hundred thousand people listed as wanting starter homes. Is there any information available on where these people are located—which counties and local authorities—and could we have that information quite early, perhaps even today? It might help us in our debates.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, we have started today with another interesting debate on starter homes. I am conscious that this is the third day in Committee and we still have some substantial issues before us.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Those powers are a specific type of power for the Secretary of State, but that does not take away from any of the other powers that local authorities might wish to use, viability allowing, when agreeing Section 106 for development in terms of other affordable homes for sale or for rent.

If I may, I wish to make a bit more progress. Our analysis has shown that in regions outside London, we expect that, on average, up to 60% of eligible households currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home. Within London, we expect that up to 47% of eligible households currently renting privately would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home. For example, 59% of eligible households currently renting privately across London would be able to secure a mortgage on a starter home in Hammersmith and Fulham.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Does the Minister know what the remortgage payments are on a mortgage of £450,000?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I do, because I have a rather large mortgage myself. I think the noble Lord may be referring to the cap on a starter home, which is £450,000.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Yes, but £450,000 is the price at which most developers are going to build houses in London.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the first-time buyer price of a house in London is currently £356,000. I appreciate that that is not the average house price in London, but that is the average first-time buyer price in London.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Does that include all properties?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It includes all sorts of properties, and that is for first-time buyers. But the price cap is a cap; it is not an average. We can and we will argue statistics today, but the cap is not the average, and the average first-time buyer price of a home in London is £356,000.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I apologise to the noble Lord and to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, because the figure that I gave was the implied first-time buyer price of a new-build in London. I think we will all get a bit confused with prices and statistics today, so I hope the noble Lords will accept my apology.

I turn now to the amendments. I thank the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham, for Amendments 43 and 44, which suggest limiting starter homes to local people, and for Amendment 40, which would prevent starter homes being sold to buy-to-let investors.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Shipley, for his amendments, which seek to restrict starter homes to those purchasing via a mortgage, and to require first-time buyers to occupy starter homes as their principal residence. Finally, the amendments in my name introduce some modest flexibility to the age 40 cap.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I have just looked this up. The cost of a £450,000 mortgage on a new house in London, at 4%, is £28,000 per annum—out of after-tax income. How is it possible for her to say, as I think she did, that 40% of private owners in London can afford a mortgage like that? These figures cannot be right. With £28,000 after tax, we are talking about income of something like £45,000 a year before tax just to pay your mortgage. This is not affordable.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, first, if someone is paying 4% on a mortgage, they might not be getting the best deal on the market. Secondly, I just repeat my point that £450,000 is the cap on a starter home and £356,000 is the implied price of a new-build first-time buyer property. I do not think we are necessarily talking about the same thing.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, let me add that the danger is that the Bill will be treated as a skeleton Bill under the Cunningham report. I always oppose voting on fatals, but we may find ourselves having to vote on fatal Motions because it is the only way we will be able to deal with amendments that we should have been able to deal with in primary legislation.

During my modest contribution, I mentioned a number of abuses. Will the Minister assure us that each of those that I quoted will be considered and dealt with by officials, and that if they believe my comments were accurate, they will be dealt with in the regulatory arrangements?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope to answer the noble Lord’s points as fully as I can. I know that if I do not, he will intervene again.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord gets to the heart of some of the issues on which we shall be consulting and which we shall try to ensure do not happen—for example, abuse of the facility. The regulations will be subject to the affirmative procedure, so there will be time to debate them, although I am not losing sight of noble Lords’ frustration.

I have completely lost my place. The English housing survey, which was published in February, found that 83% of first-time buyers funded their first property with savings; 27% had help from family or friends, while 10% used inheritance. Many first-time buyers used a combination of sources and 96% required a mortgage to buy. I am not convinced that a mortgage requirement will prevent the gaming that noble Lords suggest, although I can see exactly where they are coming from. People can play all sorts of games with mortgages. They can get a mortgage and, six months later, pay it back. I am keen to prevent local gaming, but I do not know that this would actually prevent it. We will keep implementation under review and issue further regulations if necessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, talked about resale in the first five years. This is a very important point. For example, what would happen to any money from the 20% discount? If a property were resold in the first five years, it would be sold at a 20% discount during that period, so it would remain a starter-home type of product.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

In a free market, how do you calculate the 20% discount within the first five years? Take year three. Who would decide the market price, and the subsidised—discounted—price? Would it be the estate agent; would there be some sort of independent valuer; or would it be the department? Who is going to do it? At that point, we would be interfering and trying to prejudge market values. I do not think that it will be possible.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The noble Lord is right. Market values can go down and they can go up. I would expect that an independent valuation of the property would be made and the 20% discount applied to the next person buying that starter home. It is true that the market might go down, in which case the price to any subsequent starter home purchaser would also go down.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I cannot see how you can calculate it. I am the purchaser. There is a house—a discounted property. How do I work out what I should pay? I might be competing with a queue of six people all of whom want to buy the house. Who is going to be the winner? In these conditions, there will be competition and one would have thought that the competition will take it above the discounted price. Unless there is some sort of preferential system built in, I cannot see how it can possibly work. We need a lot of information on this before we get to Report.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

If the noble Lord is happy, we can discuss this further. There are all sorts of complexities in it and I am very happy to meet with him. I think that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, and I are likely to be meeting a lot over the next few weeks to discuss various things. But that would be the mechanism: money would not go anywhere but the property would come back on to the market as a starter home.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, also talked about a charge on a starter home, which is another good point. We will consider this issue further and will engage with lenders, developers and local authorities on the detailed implementation of starter homes, which will include such issues. The noble Lord also talked about the length of leases allowable on starter homes, which, again, is another good point. The Bill specifies that a starter home may be held as a freehold or a leasehold interest. The regulations will not specify the length of any lease but in practice they will be of a market-standard length so that it would be possible to obtain mortgage finance—that is, it would be very difficult to obtain mortgage finance on, for example, a leasehold property of 10 years—even if the purchaser does not intend to obtain a mortgage.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Why not simply say, “No 99-year or 125-year leases?”. Why not just say that they should all be 999-year leases?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

A 999-year lease is a virtual freehold, is it not? Why not have those extra-long leases? Why have short leases, which force up the enfranchisement costs when people buy their leases if the ground rents are high as well?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I get the noble Lord’s point entirely. We expect that if these properties were leasehold, the leases would be of market-standard length.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

But market-standard length at the moment can be anything from 99 to 999 years. I am just saying, why not go for the longer lease?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I entirely take the noble Lord’s point. As I say, that is our expectation, but we will continually monitor this. It is a new product and we will monitor it as time goes on.

I think I have answered the questions—or some of them—before I have introduced the amendments. Amendment 41B would not allow buy-to-let investors to buy a starter home but would require first-time buyers to occupy a starter home as their principal residence. I assure noble Lords that it is not our intention to allow those people who buy a starter home to become buy-to-let landlords, and nor do we want the properties to be second homes.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, brought up the point about what happens if someone inherits a house. If that happens and they sell it on, clearly they do not own that house, but once they occupy that house they own it and therefore they would not be a starter-home purchaser. I do not know what would happen if someone purchased a starter home and then one year into that purchase inherited a house. I can get back to the noble Lord on that.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

What worries me is where someone inherits a house in the area where the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, lives, at £40,000, and then is disadvantaged because under the provisions in the Finance Act 2003, if they have acquired it—not purchased it but acquired it; in other words, inherited it—that would then deny them the right to have a starter home. That should be sorted out.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

It would, but it would give them a very good deposit on a home if they were to then sell that property, and in the north-west, the implied first-time buyer price of a new build is £144,000. I am just giving an example which relates to the one the noble Lord gave, but in that case the properties would be well within the affordability range for a new-build first home.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

It is defined in the 2003 Act. If you have acquired a house by way of inheritance, under this legislation that is your first home and therefore you cannot buy a starter home. That is what I was driving at.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if you have acquired a home and then you live in it, you are the owner of that home. You own it.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I think that the noble Lord is right. If the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, will indulge me, I will write to him on this further. It starts to raise questions, particularly when there are two or three—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

All I am saying is that where the Bill states:

“’First-time buyer’ has the meaning given by section 57AA(2) of the Finance Act 2003”,

that should be amended because it is an insufficient definition.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Perhaps I may ask the Minister an Andrew Neil-type question, one that is very simple: why should a cash buyer benefit from a Section 106 subsidy?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I shall take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Greaves, first. He has talked today, as he did the other day, about empty homes in Pendle—I am assuming he means Pendle or Colne or Brierfield—

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I will address a number of amendments together. These are Amendment 37 from the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy, Lord Shipley and Lord Beecham; Amendment 47 from the noble Baronesses, Lady Bakewell and Lady Pinnock, and the noble Lords, Lord Shipley and Lord Greaves; Amendments 48, 49 and 50 from the noble Lords, Lord Kennedy and Lord Beecham; Amendment 48B from the noble Earl, Lord Listowel; Amendment 48A from the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Beecham, Lord Kerslake and Lord Stoneham; Amendment 48C from the noble Lords, Lord Kerslake, Lord Best and Lord Kennedy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell; Amendment 48F from the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Cameron, Lord Kerslake and Lord Beecham; Amendment 50B from the noble Lords, Lord Best, Lord Cameron, Lord Beecham and Lord Stoneham; and Amendment 50D from the noble Lords, Lord Best and Lord Stoneham, and the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews.

Together these amendments give me the opportunity to make clear that the Government are committed to increasing housing supply across all tenures. Earlier I stated that repeatedly and I went through the spending commitments of £4.1 billion for 175,000 shared-ownership homes, £1.6 billion for 100,000 affordable rented homes and £8 billion for 400,000 affordable homes, including £2.3 billion for the 200,000 starter homes. Taken together, the spending review will deliver a million new homes by 2021, and starter homes are at the heart of this new ambition for the reasons I have outlined. Home ownership is particularly out of the reach of this group of people. As part of this, we are doubling the investment in housing to more than £20 billion over the next five years to support the largest housing programme by any Government since the 1970s. We will build on our track record for housing delivery. More than 639,000 new homes have been built since April 2010. There are now 887,000 more homes in England than there were in 2009. That is fact, and that is what has been delivered over the past few years. Before noble Lords think that nothing but starter homes will be built, more council homes have been built since 2010 than in the 13 years up to 2010. An important statistic is that the number of new homes in England rose by 25% over the past year, which is the highest annual percentage increase in 28 years. For those who are in any doubt, that shows not only this Government’s commitment to building housing but their record over the past few years.

However, we know that we have to do more. These clauses are about something new: a new approach to address the pressing problem of young people and home ownership. There have been slight suggestions that in some places young people might not need to own homes. There has been a huge drop in the number of young people able to access home ownership. The Bill will help deliver our manifesto commitment and will place starter homes at the heart of new developments, which is a welcome addition to our growing package of support for future home owners.

As I said earlier, and as my noble friend Lord Young of Cookham reiterated, 86% of people want to own their own home. As a Government, we should try to meet that aspiration. We need a radical shift in the way the housing market supports young first-time buyers.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Can I take the Minister back to the previous debate, where we were talking about the cost of mortgages and the price of houses? When she refers to £26,000, what does she actually mean? Some of us cannot really grasp what she is driving at, because when I looked up mortgages with a 20 or 25-year term, it was 40% of a post-tax £26,000 income. I relate that to what the Minister was saying.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

What I said earlier, and I am sorry if I did not articulate it terribly well, was that the average wage in this country is £26,000. For a couple on £26,000 each—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if I take both noble Lords’ figures, a median wage of £21,000 and £24,000 respectively, and add them together, that is £50,000 on a combined wage. Sorry—the hour is late—it is £45,000. On a combined salary of £45,000 and quoting £145,000 for a starter home, that would not be out of the median couple’s reach.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The Minister is assuming that these households have two people working full-time. That does not follow. In my former constituency, that was certainly not the case.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I was simply giving an example of an average working couple. There are many households in which both people work.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

This whole policy is predicated on the fact that both people are working. All the facts that we are being given all the time are based on two people working full-time.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I was simply giving an example of two people working within a household. It may well be that both people within a household do not work and one person is earning £45,000-plus. I was giving an average example, which I intended to be helpful to the Committee, but clearly I have confused everyone. However, I can write to noble Lords about median and average wages; this was simply trying to take the average couple on an average wage and apply that on a basis which I thought would be helpful to the Committee but which clearly was not terribly helpful.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

So, basically, the point being made is that unless you both work full-time, you will not be able to buy one of these houses.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

No, my Lords, I was simply giving an example of a couple who work and who are on the average wage. Every single case is different; I was simply giving an average scenario. We can make all sorts of different assumptions—for example, about a scenario where one person works in the household and they earn £50,000, and so on—but I was simply giving the example of an average working couple.

London: Housing Costs

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I assure noble Lords that he is not living with me. When he was standing for election, he did move back in with his parents. I think that he is something like 26 years of age, and we are absolutely committed to providing starter homes for people in that age group.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Minister been following the progress of the project being promoted by an organisation called London Citizens, which is developing a site on Mile End Road in London—the former St Clement’s mental hospital? It can sell flats at a fraction of the normal price that properties are being sold for in London because of the way that it handles the land value. Might Ministers have a look at that project and see whether any lessons can be learned, particularly while the Housing and Planning Bill is going through the House of Lords?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am afraid to tell the noble Lord that I have not heard of the scheme but I would be very interested to hear about it. If he could write to me, I certainly would be interested to have a look at it.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 1st March 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, could I just make some progress? I may be repeating myself here but the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, asked what other products were reflected in the Bill and, of course, custom and self-build is referred to. It is a small but important part of the market and, culturally in this country, it is a part of the market we have not taken a lot of notice of over the last few years but there is a desire for people to get involved in custom and new build.

I shall go back to talking about housing growth in all tenures. Some of the planning reforms to help builders to get building are included in later parts of the Bill. To help councils build their own homes we have increased borrowing headroom by £222 million for 36 councils and we are continuing and building on our Help to Buy programme to support new housebuilding.

The noble Earl, Lord Lytton, asked whether people could afford to buy. I hope I have partially answered that question by answering the intervention from the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in terms of affordable house prices outside London.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On that matter the Minister said that a £150,000 house was affordable on an income of £26,000. That was the reply she gave. I was just looking it up on a mortgage calculator. After tax it is about 40% of income.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the example I gave was a couple on a mean wage of £26,000, not one person on £26,000. Four times one wage would be under £150,000. To clarify, I am talking about a couple on £26,000 each. It is the mean wage so I just gave it as an average example, if the noble Lord could accept that in the context in which it was given. It was an average example of an average couple.

The noble Lord, Lord Tope, asked when we will get the details of the review of shared ownership. It was a commitment made by the previous Government. This Government carried out an internal review which resulted in the announcement of 135,000 shared ownership units in the spending review of 2015. The prospectus for the shared ownership programme is due in the spring.

My noble friend Lord Lansley talked about the definition of the starter home. Clause 2 talks about the criterion for a starter home being a new dwelling available to qualifying first-time buyers aged under 40. We will specify more criteria in the regulations. It is sold at a discount of at least 20% of market value. It is sold for less than £250,000 outside London and £450,000 within Greater London. It is subject to sale and letting restrictions to be specified in the regulations and we will consult.

Flooding: EU Solidarity Fund

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, in terms of what is expected from the European Union Solidarity Fund, the Government will fulfil their obligations under what they have already committed to. This will not be a sly way to circumvent what we have already promised, and I can confirm that a lot of the money has already gone out of the £200 million that we committed. As for the time it takes to make an application, the noble Lord will appreciate that certain thresholds have to be met. It is in analysing those thresholds that the Government know whether they can make an application. These things take time, and there was no intention of delay on our part.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, I want to place on record the appreciation of my former constituency in Keswick, a place where I have spent much of my life, for the work done by Julie Ward, the Member of the European Parliament, in pressing the Government here and working in Brussels to ensure that this process would work. She has been campaigning extensively on the very issue of this fund. Does the Minister have any idea of how much this will actually mean for areas such as the county of Cumbria? Can we have some numbers, please?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sorry to say that those numbers have not been finalised at this stage. I do not know the noble Lord’s colleague, but I believe him when he says that she has been working hard. In fact, Keswick is another place that I passed the other day. Perhaps, at this point, the House will indulge me in commending businesses in Keswick, Windermere and Grasmere, where I stayed, for having the grit and determination to get back up and running. Coming into Grasmere, I saw a sign that read, “Grasmere is open for business”, and it certainly was full of tourists. I congratulate people who have gone there, and also the businesses for being so warmly welcoming of tourists so quickly after such devastating events.

Housing and Planning Bill

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Tuesday 9th February 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I want to intervene briefly again, because this raises an issue of principle which came up during our consideration of tax credits. If you read the report of the Joint Committee on Conventions—the Cunningham report—you will find, under one of the sections, the conditions in which the House feels it is entitled to vote on fatal amendments. I am increasingly of the view, as I think are a number of other Members on this side of the House, that the Government are now abusing legislation by introducing skeleton Bills and bringing in, on the back of them, statutory instruments which they feel the House cannot consider in detail because we cannot amend them. This is a classic case of where, had the House had been given more information in the Bill, we would at least have had the opportunity to debate the detail, within the circumscribed area referred to by the noble Lord, Lord Deben, that would allow for flexibility. We could have considered in some detail what the crimes—if I might use that word, although it is a very broad one—might be.

I feel very strongly about fatal amendments. When it came to the consideration of tax credits, I was one of the very few Labour Peers who refused to vote, on the basis that I did regard what we were doing as fatal. That is how strongly I felt. However, increasingly in conversations with others, they will point to these recommendations on skeleton Bills and the use of SIs. One is being driven into a position whereby one has to vote on fatals—something which I never wanted to do when I was brought to this House some 15 years ago. As the Bill progresses, the noble Baroness should have it in mind that we need more detail, particularly in areas where Members might feel they wish to amend primary legislation.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Amendments C1 and 8ZA relate to the same issue, so I shall address them together. Amendment C1 would remove Clause 13(3) from the Bill and replace it with a provision listing the offences that constitute banning order offences, namely,

“unlawful eviction of a tenant; or … failure to comply with an improvement notice in relation to property conditions”,

and would require that regulations to amend the list be subject to affirmative resolutions.

Amendment 8ZA would amend Clause 22, and would require financial penalty guidance to be laid in draft before Parliament, and not brought into force without an affirmative procedure resolution of each House.

We propose to define banning order offences in secondary legislation, as this will give us the flexibility to amend the list of banning order offences in the light of experience, as my noble friend Lord Deben said. As he has also requested in terms of certainty, we are sympathetic to that and we will consider it further.

Clause 13(4) explains what matters may be taken into consideration when setting out in regulations what are banning order offences. Banning order offences are likely to include a serious offence, where an offender has been convicted in the Crown Court of an offence involving fraud, drugs, sexual assault or violence that is committed in, or in relation to, a property that is owned or managed by the offender, or which involves, or was perpetrated against, persons occupying such a property. A banning order offence also includes any serious offence involving violence against the tenant by the landlord or property agent, and serious breaches of housing legislation.

We are planning to publish the secondary regulations in draft and will consult on these in the autumn before they are laid before the House. These will all be existing offences that already have serious consequences for those who are convicted. We are introducing civil penalties as an alternative to prosecution, and these will be available for certain serious breaches of housing legislation. The guidance for local authorities will be procedural and will provide advice on when it may be appropriate to issue a civil penalty rather than prosecute, together with advice on what might be the appropriate level of penalties.

The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about the right of appeal for civil penalties. The landlord will have a right to appeal against a civil penalty to a First-tier Tribunal and can either cancel or decrease the penalty. Several noble Lords have brought up the DPRRC and its recommendations on the delegated powers in the Bill, including those highlighted in these amendments. I can confirm to noble Lords that we will consider the committee’s recommendations and respond in Committee if possible, but certainly before Report. I hope that, with those comments, the noble Lord will feel content to withdraw the amendment.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

The issue there would be whether the council had a first or second charge.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, it would. May I clarify that in writing?

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, I firmly support Amendment 9, moved by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville. It is a very sound amendment.

Clause 29 refers to a power to include a person convicted—that is, convicted in a court of law—of a banning order offence. Then it says in a subsection:

“A local housing authority in England may make an entry in the database in respect of a person who has, at least twice”—

not once, twice—

“within a period of 12 months, received a financial penalty in respect of a banning order offence committed at a time when the person was a residential landlord”.

We are talking here about a habitual offender. In Clause 32 the Government set out what can be on the database. Let us go through the list, because that list should be available to the general public for the reasons set out by the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, when she referred to freedom of information. First, there is the period for which the entry is to be maintained: why should that not be available to the tenant or tenants? Details of properties owned, let or managed by the person: why should they not be in the public domain when the matter has been dealt with in the courts? Details of a banning order offence of which the person has been convicted in a court of law: why should that information not be made available to the tenant? Details of any banning orders made against the person, whether or not still in force: why should tenants not know the background of their prospective landlords? Also on the list are “details of financial penalties” received by the person.

Finally, I return to the first item in the list: the person’s address or other contact details. One would have thought that a tenant should at least have the right to know who their prospective landlord is, where they live, and their contact details. I put it to the Minister that the Government are a little oversensitive about this. They should reconsider this area and think about what is in the public interest. Who is going to lose as a result of this? The local authority does not lose; the tenant does not lose; only the landlord who has been convicted of a criminal offence loses. I ask the Minister to reconsider the position.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 16 in my name in relation to Clause 38. Amendment 16 would mean that for the purposes of paragraph 17 of Schedule 23 to the Finance Act 2011, the database will be treated as being maintained by the Secretary of State, although Clause 27 sets out that local authorities have responsibility for maintaining its content. This will ensure that HMRC is able to access the database, using its powers under the Finance Act 2011, so that it can use the data in discharge of its tax functions when dealing with rogue landlords and property agents.

I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, for speaking to Amendment 9. While appeals, and not just appeals about entries on the database, should be dealt with without undue delay, it is not appropriate to set out in primary legislation strict time limits for doing so, because it may not be practical or reasonable to do so. The tribunal has a wide range of powers to ensure that cases are dealt with fairly and justly. It can award costs against vexatious litigants whose only purpose in appealing is, for example, to delay their entry on the database or to cause further expense to the local housing authority. It can also prioritise cases that it considers urgent and refuse adjournments when there is no good reason for the request. In general, however, when the appeal is not vexatious in nature, how quickly it can be disposed of will ultimately depend on its complexity and other factors, such as the representations that the parties intend to make. Indeed, other factors can lead to delay, such as the illness of a party or a representative. It would be manifestly unfair if representations could not be accepted outside 28 days when there is genuine and good reason for doing so because the law has said that the appeal must be heard within that timeframe, regardless of circumstances.

I turn to Amendment 10. Landlords and property agents included on the database will have either been convicted of a banning order offence or received two or more civil penalties, as an alternative to prosecution, for serious breaches of housing legislation. I appreciate the feelings of noble Lords on this issue. It is not intended that all those included on the database should be banned from operating their business, but banning orders would be sought for the very worst or repeat offenders. Banning order offences will be defined in secondary legislation but are likely to include a serious offence. This is where an offender has been convicted in the Crown Court of an offence involving fraud, drugs, sexual assault or violence that is committed in, or in relation to, a property that is owned or managed by the offender or which involves, or was perpetrated against, persons occupying such a property. It would also include any serious offence involving violence against the tenant by the landlord or property agent, and serious breaches of housing legislation.

Amendment 11 would allow tenants and prospective tenants to petition their local housing authority to gain access to the database of rogue landlords and property agents. Doing so would effectively blacklist those landlords and agents on the database and put them out of business. This is not the intention of our legislation. The database aims to enable local authorities to keep track of rogue landlords and agents and target their enforcement action more effectively. Where a local authority believes a landlord or agent should be prevented from renting out or managing property, it should seek a banning order.

Noble Lords, and particularly the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, asked whether the public or tenants will have access to the database. The database will hold details of landlords and property agents who have been convicted of certain offences. Just because a landlord or property agent is on a database does not mean that they are banned from letting out a property—that would require a banning order. Making the database publicly available could raise data protection issues. However, the Secretary of State can give information held on the database in an anonymised form for research, statistical or monitoring purposes. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked about tenants’ details. These will never be disclosed. The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, also asked about the effect of putting a landlord or property agent on the database. A database will enable a local authority to keep track of the landlords or property agents who have been convicted of a relevant offence and who may seek to move to a new area to avoid detection and attract new tenants. It will also enable them to obtain details about other rental properties owned by the landlord. In some cases, a local authority may decide to monitor a landlord or property agent on the database before deciding whether to apply for a banning order.

Information on the database will be made more widely available in an anonymised form. In addition, where tenants raise concerns about their landlords failing to take action over property conditions, local authorities can carry out an inspection, using the housing health and safety rating system introduced in the Housing Act 2004, and take appropriate enforcement action.

Where a local authority believes that a landlord or property agent should be banned from being involved in renting out or managing property, it should apply to the First-tier Tribunal for a banning order. Banning orders are intended to be used for those landlords and property agents who are particularly serious or prolific offenders, and who represent a real risk to the health and safety of prospective tenants. Local authorities have been provided with strong enforcement tools to ensure that, once a banning order has been made, it is not breached by the offender.

Amendments 12, 13 and 14 would require the Secretary of State to make information on the database of rogue landlords and property agents accessible to everyone and provide that the purposes to which the data may be put include the protection of tenants. As I have said, making the database publicly accessible would effectively drive anyone on the list out of business—which is not the purpose of the database.

Finally, Amendment 15 would require local authorities to automatically bar landlords on the database of rogue landlords from holding an HMO licence. As I have said previously, the purpose of the database is not to ban landlords and property agents from operating. The idea is to enable local authorities to monitor rogue landlord activity and effectively target enforcement action. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, mentioned retaliatory eviction. We legislated through the Deregulation Act 2015 to stop the practice of retaliatory eviction, a move that has been much welcomed by Shelter.

I hope I have explained enough to enable the noble Baroness to withdraw her amendment—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On government Amendment 16, I do not quite understand why HMRC would want to gather these data. Perhaps the Minister could explain.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is for tax purposes—to enable the rogue landlords to fulfil their tax obligations.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am not opposed to that but are we saying that persons who are subject to the legislation in terms of banning orders come under a separate reporting arrangement to the Revenue as against the generality of landlords?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I am sorry, could the noble Lord please repeat what he just said?

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Are we saying that there is a separate category for those landlords who would fall under the legislation in terms of banning orders as against the generality of landlords, who, as the noble Earl, Lord Lytton, said, are pretty good people?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is the rogue landlords who are on the database. HMRC will have access to that database.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I rejected the amendment because the purpose of the database is not to ban landlords and property agents from operating but to enable local authorities to monitor rogue landlord activity. It is crucial to give local authorities the freedom to make judgments regarding the licensing in their area, just as they do in other forms of licensing, so it does not necessarily follow that a rogue landlord should be banned from holding an HMO licence. Although a local authority may make the judgment that they should be banned from having such a licence because of their activity, it does not necessarily follow.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I put it to the Minister—

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, on that matter, I had almost forgotten what I was going to ask, but it was this: if we can ban a doctor or a dentist for bad practice, why can we not ban a landlord?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

The landlord who is on a database of rogue landlords has not necessarily been banned but may have had a civil penalty. So it is up to the local authority, when coming to a judgment about an HMO licence and in the light of the information that it has, whether that landlord will be banned from holding one. It may decide on balance that he or she will be, because they are such a rogue, or they may have had one civil penalty and it might therefore grant him or her a licence.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if I may, I will take note of what my noble friend Lord Flight has said and deal with it in the relevant group so that I have both heard him and responded at the relevant time and we do not move amendments out of kilter.

Amendments 18 and 33A are very similar, so I will address them together. These amendments would involve local authorities operating an accreditation and licensing scheme for private sector landlords in their area. The current licensing arrangements were introduced to give local authorities the ability to deal with problems that might arise in connection with rented property and provide for three types of licensing: mandatory licensing of larger houses in multiple occupation; additional licensing of smaller houses in multiple occupation; and selective licensing of all types of private rented housing, should the local authority see fit to do that.

A major drawback of licensing is that it impacts on all landlords and it places additional burdens on reputable landlords who are already fully compliant with their obligations. As my noble friend Lord O’Shaughnessy says, this creates unnecessary costs for reputable landlords which tend to be passed on to tenants. The majority of landlords—the non-rogue landlords, to quote my noble friend—provide a good service and the Government do not want to impose unnecessary additional costs on them or on tenants who may see their rents rise as landlord costs rise.

Accreditation is of interest only to good landlords who rent out decent accommodation, so it does not help to identify and tackle criminal landlords nor lead to improvements in the sector. Local authorities are in the best position to decide whether or not there is a need for an accreditation system in their area. Indeed, voluntary accreditation systems have been introduced by many local authorities and are also promoted by the main landlord associations. The noble Lord, Lord Beecham, asked whether these could be extended if they were successful. They most definitely could, but it would be a local decision-making process. I hope, with that explanation, the noble Lord will agree to withdraw the amendment.

I would like to thank my noble friend Lord Flight for tabling Amendment 21. I see that my noble friend Lord Cathcart is in his place; he has spoken to this. The amendment would require local authorities to request tenure information from residents, owners and managing agents whenever the local authority requests council tax information. As my noble friend Lord Cathcart and I have already discussed, it happens in some councils, as noble Lords have pointed out, particularly in London. It is already being practised by some councils, but not all. I am very supportive of ensuring that local authorities have the tools necessary to tackle rogue landlords in the private rented sector in their areas. Parts 2 and 3 of this Bill demonstrate our commitment to this.

Local authorities already have powers in existing legislation to request tenure information on council tax forms—as I have said, some do—through the Local Government Finance Act 1992 and the Housing Act 2004. They can also access the tenancy deposit protection schemes. I am very sympathetic to the purpose of this amendment but, before jumping head first into legislation to require it, which could potentially increase financial burdens, the Housing Minister and I intend to investigate the matter further and have taken steps to establish a working group to explore this important issue. It will be chaired by none other than Dame Angela Watkinson herself. The working group will assess the extent to which local authorities are currently using their existing powers, examine how they could currently use this information to tackle rogue landlords and, crucially, consider how and whether requiring the collection of tenure data will assist in tackling rogue landlords. It is due to meet in March and will report back to Ministers within three to six months.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, came back on the point about the ability of the Inland Revenue —or HMRC—to access rogue landlord data.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

All data.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Yes, it can access all data, but in particular it can access rogue landlord data. This is part of my point: there is evidence of some practices in London where rogue landlords are housing 20 or so tenants in two-bedroom properties. That evidence could be married up with the various agencies not only to find those rogue landlords but to fine them as well, and recover the tax that is due to HMRC. I thought that might be a useful circling up.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am not referring to rogue landlords but to all landlords.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

Absolutely—I would just make the point about the rogue ones, but the noble Lord is absolutely right.

Amendment 27 would require all private landlords to sign up to a national register, which would be operated and maintained by a local authority. The information on the register could be used by local authorities to inform landlords about regulatory matters, of their duties under the Housing Act and the Immigration Act 2014, and other useful information. The Government do not support a national register, for reasons which some noble Lords have pointed out. In addition to the costly undertaking of supporting a national register—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I am sorry to press the Minister again, but has any estimate been made of what the cost would be? Can we have some idea, or is there just an assumption that it will be too costly?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I am not sure whether an assessment has been made, but while I do not know what the cost will be, there will be a cost. There will obviously be an obligation to provide a register, and therefore an associated resource and cost. I cannot say what the quantum of that cost would be at this point.

Flooding: Relief Effort

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 25th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

In this discussion about flooded homes, scant regard is being paid to the position of small businesses, particularly on flood plains, very often uninsured and very often faced with the prospect of closing down. Will the Ministers now go to Flood Re and talk to these people about enhancing its scheme to help small businesses to be protected in future flooding incidents?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right in saying that Flood Re does not cover businesses. One reason may be that there might be a state aid issue in providing insurance for businesses. We understand that it is not so much a problem for small businesses as it is for households. Nevertheless, we are working together with the industry to make sure and keep an eye on businesses that might struggle to get flood insurance.

Cumbria: Floods

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 20th January 2016 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My noble friend is absolutely right that trees are a very effective mechanism in terms of mitigating floods and slowing flood waters down. However, the storms we had over Christmas, Eva and Desmond, were too severe for this alone to have been an entire solution. We have to look at all the various solutions in the round, including managing the flow of water, to help to prevent such problems in future.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friend asked for an assurance on the expenditure which now faces the county of Cumbria. Having looked at the figures, Cumbria County Council has produced a report which shows an overall funding gap of £374 million for repairing all the damage done in the county. Is that bill going to be paid? Talking about £2 million here and £4 million there is irrelevant in the context of the huge expenditure now faced by the county. Who is going to pay this bill? Someone has to pay for all the damage that has been done.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the noble Lord is absolutely right. I have given the figure for the funding committed for the transport infrastructure, but over this Parliament £2.3 billion will be provided for a range of flood defence schemes, which should help to mitigate the risk. It compares with £1.7 billion in the previous Parliament and £1.5 billion in 2005-10. At this point, that is what the Government are committing.

Housing: London

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 26th October 2015 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, the Government are very clear that the green belt should be protected. However, as the noble Baroness will know, this Government are very committed to right to buy and to unlocking brownfield sites, with the brownfield register being available from councils, and we will put £1 billion into the brownfield fund. I have talked about starter homes and other affordable homes.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, why are the Government supporting a reduction in the percentage of the social housing contribution in London planning permissions?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I think it is up to local authorities to decide what types of tenure they provide for the people who live in their localities.

Affordable Housing

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Thursday 25th June 2015 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Communities and Local Government (Baroness Williams of Trafford) (Con)]

My Lords, I thank all noble Lords who have taken part in this debate and thank the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, for introducing it.

I will start by casting noble Lords’ minds back to 2010, to a situation in which the banks were not lending, the builders were not building—as the noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, said, and of course that led to a loss of skills in that sector—and working people were denied the opportunity of home ownership. At that time there was a top-down planning system with regional spatial strategies which produced not houses but the lowest peacetime rates of housebuilding since the 1920s. The regional strategies and the guidance that accompanied them ran to thousands of pages. However, apart from breaking the bookshelves of planning officials across the country, they were notable for building resentment rather than homes for working people. Crucially, the stock of social rented homes had fallen by 420,000 since 1997, with 1.4 million families languishing on social housing waiting lists. Now, we are meeting people’s aspirations to own their own home by expanding on improvements in housebuilding and providing support for those who aspire to own their own home.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and many other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, said that we are not building enough homes. It is clear that if we do not supply the homes, there will be a problem. More than 260,000 affordable homes have been delivered in England since April 2010. The Government’s 2011 to 2015 affordable homes programme has exceeded expectations by delivering nearly 186,000 affordable homes since April 2011—16,000 more than originally planned. In all, 570,000 new homes have been built since April 2010, and there are now nearly 800,000 more homes than in 2009. The starts on new homes in the year to March 2015 totalled 140,500—the highest level since 2007. Homelessness is now at less than half of its peak level under the Labour Government in 2003.

We have wasted no time unveiling an important set of measures, including a new housing Bill announced in the Queen’s Speech which will increase housing supply, support home ownership and give housing association tenants the chance to own their own home.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

On that point, I wonder whether the noble Baroness will answer my question. Why should Quaker Housing Trust—another interdenominational- sponsored housing trust—be forced to sell off its assets when it is run by volunteers and linked to all the churches?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I say at this point that we intend not to seize anyone’s assets but to enable people who aspire to own their own home to do so. I will come later to the noble Lord’s specific point concerning Keswick, if that is okay.

The housing Bill will help more tenants of housing associations to buy a home of their own. It will increase the supply of starter homes, help those wishing to build their own home and ensure more control over planning. I can confirm to the noble Lord, Lord Kerslake, that we will deliver 275,000 affordable homes with £38 billion of public and private investment, achieving the fastest build rate for 20 years. I can also confirm to the noble Lord that the Minister in the other place, Brandon Lewis, is already engaging across the sector, because, as he has said, that is very important. On the 10-year rent policy settlement, the Budget will be on 8 July. As the noble Lord will know, the settlement will then follow, so I cannot give any commitments at this stage.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, talked about the lack of affordability for first-time buyers. I can confirm to both him and the noble Baroness, Lady Warwick of Undercliffe, that, in addition, during this Parliament we will be committing to build 200,000 starter homes, to be exclusively offered to first-time buyers under the age of 40 at a 20% discount on the open market value. The starter homes will also help those in their 20s and 30s to have the opportunity to gain the benefits of home ownership which their parents’ generation enjoyed. We have introduced a new planning policy to encourage developers to build starter homes, and we will shortly set out a further package of reforms to support the delivery of these 200,000 starter homes.

The noble Baroness, Lady Warwick, passed me a note saying that she omitted to ask whether she could have a meeting with me. I assume that it would be to discuss housing. I shall be very happy to meet her, although I should add “in due course”, as at the moment I am quite busy.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, referred to supply constraints. Many noble Lords talked about lack of supply driving up house prices. As I have started to outline, we are increasing supply. We have granted planning permission for 261,000 new homes in the past year. House prices are affected by the economic cycle and we have a strong economy.

The noble Lord, Lord Stoneham, referred to the lack of discussion on Help to Buy. Forty-nine thousand people have been helped to buy, and more than 225,000 households have been helped to buy a home of their own by government schemes such as Help to Buy. Our manifesto committed us to extend the Help to Buy equity loan until 2020. We will introduce a Help to Buy ISA in the autumn to help aspiring home owners save for a deposit on their first home with contributions from government. For every £200 that someone saves through the scheme, the Government will contribute £50.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, and the noble Baroness, Lady Valentine, talked about borrowing without caps. The Government have no plans to remove the borrowing caps. They are necessary while we tackle the national deficit inherited from the previous Labour Administration. Local authorities have £3.13 billion of borrowing already.

The noble Lord, Lord Whitty, spoke of the need for a White Paper on a whole new approach to housing and suggested a target of 250,000 new homes—of which a proportion should be social housing—with clearer local responsibilities. As I have said, housing starts are at their highest annual level since 2007. Under Labour, despite the targets, housebuilding fell to its lowest peacetime rate since the 1920s. We are focusing on building more homes.

The noble Lord talked also about the cost of housing benefit rising in the private rented sector. Housing benefit cost rose by 50% in real terms in the 10 years to 2010. In 2013-14, welfare spending fell for the first time in 16 years. Some £470 million in discretionary housing payments has been made available for the period 2013-16 to help vulnerable households during welfare reform transition.

I think that it was the noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell of Hardington Mandeville, who talked about the right to build and neighbourhood planning. Councils will identify and provide land and a right to build for people who want to build or commission their own home. Already, 1,500 communities have started the process of neighbourhood planning, with more than 11% of the population of England living in one or more of the 1,300 designated neighbourhood areas. We will further simplify neighbourhood planning to make it even easier for communities to have more control over housing. The number of homes planned for locally has risen substantially and we saw planning permissions granted to 253,000 homes last year.

Many noble Lords talked about right to buy. As I outlined earlier, we believe in helping people in their aspiration to buy their own home. We will offer more than 1 million housing associations tenants the option to buy their own home in the same way as generations of local authority tenants. Until now, 1.3 million tenants in housing association properties have received little or no assistance in this area, which is clearly unfair. Aspiration should not be determined by the organisation that manages your home nor be limited by it, especially if it is funded ultimately by the taxpayer. That is why we will ensure that housing association tenants have the same opportunities for the right to buy a home at a higher discount level as council tenants. Revenue from sales will be invested in more affordable housing, and for every home sold a new home will be built, which relates to the point raised by the noble Lord, Lord Whitty, about addressing the lack of supply. Through the right to buy refresh scheme, 33,000 homes have been built, with 40,000 since 2010.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, talked about affordable homes being lost for ever because of the extended right to buy. We have been very clear that every home sold will be replaced by another one.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, that is a policy announcement to be made later. Given the amount of time left, I am happy to write to the noble Lord in due course, but I am aware that the clock is ticking and I still have a pile of questions to get through.

Pension funds were mentioned by one noble Lord, which brought to mind what is happening in Manchester. Greater Manchester, which has a healthy pension fund, and the city council have signed up to a £30 million joint venture that will see new homes for rent managed by Places for People.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, and my noble friend Lord Horam talked about foreign investors in London. The former Government also took action to tackle tax avoidance and to ensure that those individuals who envelope UK residential properties by owning or purchasing them through corporate structures without a commercial purpose pay a fair share of tax. We are also levelling the playing field by introducing capital gains tax on future gains made by non-residents disposing of UK residential property.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, also asked why thresholds for exemptions on Section 106 were set at 10 houses and asked why local authorities could not set their own thresholds. Ten homes represents a major development in planning terms and this is accepted across the country. The thresholds policy states that affordable housing contributions should not be sought from sites of 10 units or fewer and 1,000 square metres or less, and a lower threshold of five units applies in national parks, areas of outstanding national beauty and designated rural areas as a direct result of concerns raised. New developments tend to be predominately smaller scale in rural areas.

The noble Baroness, Lady Bakewell, also said that there should be more targeted funding for rural affordable housing through the HCA. The HCA looks at a range of factors, including local circumstances, when allocating funding. There is no set amount of grant funding. Higher costs that can occur in rural areas are taken into account.

The noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours, talked about the impact on community housing trusts of the extension of right to buy. To some extent, I have already started to address that point. The development of that policy is ongoing and we are engaging with that sector.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Is there any chance that this particular group will be exempted from legislation?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I hope that the noble Lord will forgive me if I do not give a response at this point.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

Will the Minister write to me?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

I will certainly write to the noble Lord, but I am not in a position to make policy announcements at the Dispatch Box.

The noble Lord alluded to Keswick, so I will outline how we are supporting housing in Allerdale council. There have been 460 affordable homes delivered in the Allerdale local authority area between 2010 and 2015. In terms of help to buy, there have been 80 equity loan sales to March 2015, 58 mortgage guarantee loans, 158 homes supported by 20 new-buy mortgage loans and, up to 2014, the new homes bonus for Allerdale has been £791,455.

The noble Lord, Lord Best, said that the current right to buy has become more generous with increased discounts and shorter qualifying periods. The qualifying period was reduced from five years to three years under the Deregulation Act 2015, returning to the original qualifying period set in the 1980s, and the right to buy discount has increased to realistic levels after years of stagnation when the discounts became irrelevant.

A question was raised about making land available. We want to make brownfield land available because people want new homes to be built near existing residences while the green belt and the local countryside are protected. They might even want to build their own home. We will ensure that brownfield land is used as much as possible for new development. We will require local authorities to keep a register of what is available and ensure that 90% of suitable brownfield sites have planning permission for housing. I mentioned in this House the other day that we will create a brownfield fund to unlock land. There will also be a new London land commission to identify and release all surplus brownfield land owned by the public sector and fund housing zones to transform brownfield sites into new housing, creating 95,000 new homes.

The noble Lord, Lord Haskel, made the point that no one believes that one-for-one replacement will work, especially in London. There is inevitably a lag between sale and replacement in order to assemble land, get planning permission and so on. That is why in 2012 councils asked for three years to deliver the one-for-one figures that we have published today. They show that 3,053 additional homes were sold in 2012-13, and 3,337 have been started or acquired. The numbers have doubled in the last year, so councils are delivering the one-for-one replacement to date. However, we cannot expect to see the figures on that replacement immediately.

Two noble Lords talked about the definition of affordable housing. It is set out in the National Planning Policy Framework and in the Housing and Regeneration Act 2008. The definitions are as follows. The National Planning Policy Framework defines it as:

“Social rented, affordable rented and intermediate housing, provided to eligible households whose needs are not met by the market. Eligibility is determined with regard to local incomes and local house prices”.

Cities and Local Government Devolution Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Monday 22nd June 2015 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I will ask the Minister about this matter again, on the detail of the amendment. The Bill states:

“The Secretary of State may by order provide for there to be a mayor for the area of a combined authority”.

In taking that decision, would the Secretary of State have in mind what is in subsections (3)(a) to (c) of the proposed new clause in the amendment?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it would be entirely between the Secretary of State and those local authorities. I am sure that he would have in mind precisely what powers they wanted devolved and the level of accountability that that would require. I hope that answers the noble Lord’s question.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, if I could repeat the point, the combined authority agreed with the Secretary of State that the mayoral model was the model of governance that it would agree to have. Greater Manchester did not have that model imposed upon it. It agreed with the Secretary of State that that would be the model that it would go with. I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Smith, will correct me if I am wrong.

If I could make some progress—

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

I cannot just let that slip away. There is a clear difference in interpretation of what is intended between what was said in the Commons and what is being said from the Dispatch Box here. I think that we need something in writing. Perhaps the Minister should write to Members and explain exactly what the position is. We need to know what it really is and not be left in this very confused state.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I will try to clarify again. It is certainly true that, for the full suite of powers to be devolved, such as in Greater Manchester, the Government would expect there to be a fully accountable person. The model that Greater Manchester agreed to was a mayoral model.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

“Insist” was the word that was referred to by my noble friend on the Front Bench.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, I cannot be more clear that that was the system that Greater Manchester and the Secretary of State agreed would be the accountable model.

Child Abuse: Police Investigations

Debate between Lord Campbell-Savours and Baroness Williams of Trafford

Wednesday 29th October 2014 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

My Lords, it is a general duty of those working with children to safeguard them. Certainly every single officer who works in the NCA has a legal duty to safeguard and protect children.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, can we draw a distinction between “most harmful” and “harmful”?

[Baroness Williams of Trafford]

In terms of harm, I would say that “most harmful” applies to children in immediate danger of being harmed.