Business of the House

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord True]

On these things, people have to stand up and be counted. I reflect that having made my speech last week against a strong Whip from my party saying that we should obey Standing Orders, I did not regret it and I asked myself whether I should intervene in this debate—I have intervened only on the Standing Order and the procedural point—and do it again. I felt that I must because not only is the pace so extraordinary but it is so odd that 227 Members of the House of Lords— your Lordships’ House, the revising Chamber—voted to close off, after a few minutes, discussion of whether your Lordships should allow yourselves more than one day to discuss a Bill of such importance and such significance. I think that was a sad reflection on our love of our procedures which I confess are part of our freedom. Our freedoms were won by Parliament. They are held by Parliament and we in this place have a part in that, irrespective of where we stand on the debates on Europe. One thing I agree with my noble friend Lady Evans on is that we have heard a lot, but surely on this business of how we conduct ourselves we can rise above the debates that we are having later and consider whether this House wishes to embark down this road. I submit that when I suggested to my noble friend on the Front Bench last week that the Government should listen and adhere to Standing Orders, they did listen. They adjourned the House and we had the debate the next day. I now submit to the noble Baroness that she should show the same grace and that she should accept the proposition that we hear one stage today and have time to reflect on the later stages of the Bill on another day. That is not an unreasonable provision. I put that submission in conclusion to the noble Baroness.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

This is an abuse of our procedures. Can it stop?

[Lord True]

I would have stopped 30 seconds later if the noble Lord had not risen. He calls it an abuse of Parliament. I call it the right of any Member of Parliament to put the case for proper procedures, freedom and accountability, and accountability lies there just as it must lie here.

Exiting the European Union

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 10th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, with the Fixed-term Parliaments Act in mind, is not perhaps the real reason the Prime Minister has backed off the fact that a second Motion of confidence would have to be held within 14 days, which means Christmas Day? Does that not suggest that we might be looking at a deferred resignation?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

No, the Prime Minister has been clear about why we have decided to defer the vote: it is because we want to try to secure the reassurances that will be needed to ensure that a deal that has the best prospects for this country gets through the House of Commons. That is what she will be focusing and working on in the coming days.

NATO Brussels Summit 2018

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 16th July 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The Brussels declaration was agreed by all allies, including President Trump, at the summit. As I said, he was clear about his commitment to NATO. The US has more than doubled its budget allocation for its European deterrence initiative and US forces are leading NATO’s enhanced forward presence in Poland, so we also need to look at the US’s actions and how they link into the support that the President reiterated following the summit.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, have the Germans given us an absolute assurance that they will bring forward the date by which they will reach the 2% contribution target?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

There was general agreement that there was an urgent need to step up defence spending. All allies agreed to it. The 2% is by 2024.

Syria

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 16th April 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have made clear, this action was specifically focused on degrading the regime’s chemical weapons capability. Our position remains that we do not believe there can be a sustainable peace in Syria with Assad in power, and that we need a transition to a new and inclusive non-sectarian Government. We will continue to work diplomatically and, as I have mentioned a couple of times, we are attending a conference next week aimed at supporting the future of Syria and the region. We remain committed to the UN political process and will continue to use all the diplomatic means that we can to achieve a lasting peace in Syria.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, in the Statement the Leader of the House said that the intelligence cannot be shared with Parliament. If that is the case, can the detailed intelligence be shared with the Intelligence and Security Committee? As I understand it, since the period when I was on the committee under the chairmanship of the noble Lord, Lord King, the services have been far more open with that committee. If that is the case, why do we not now use it as a vehicle for providing the information that Parliament requires?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the noble Baroness said, there have been briefings on Privy Council terms and various other things that happen today. I do not know specifically about that committee. I can go and check and am happy to write to the noble Lord. Where information can be shared, it will be. We have published the Attorney-General’s advice. We are trying to be transparent where we can, but obviously we have to respect the intelligence services as well.

Salisbury Incident Update

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As the Statement set out, we have spoken to the Russian ambassador and set out, on the basis of the evidence that we have, what we believe the two possible explanations are for what happened in Salisbury, and we are waiting to hear their response.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, what Mr Putin will fear more than anything else is transparency and exposure of the excesses of his regime. What are we doing to promote alternative media sources being transmitted into Russia? They transmit Russia Today to us. What do we do in reciprocation? Are we pressing them to accept any of our media?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I will have to write to the noble Lord, as I do not have an answer to that question.

Brexit Negotiations

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 11th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

EU citizens’ rights in the UK will be upheld by implementing the agreement in our law, instead of continued EU law enforced by the EU courts. Our courts will pay due regard to EU case law as agreed at the point of exit to interpret that law as needs be, just as they decide our law now in reference to international law, where relevant, such as the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Faulks (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, it is the turn of the Labour Benches and I suggest that we hear from the noble Lord, Lord Campbell-Savours.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, the Leader of the House is a member of the Cabinet and therefore I am sure that she will know the answer to my question: is it the Government’s intention that at the ferry port at Belfast there will be no customs officials or immigration officers in attendance with the remit or ability to check non-UK citizens travelling to ports in Scotland, England or Wales?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord asks a question about implementation. I am not in a position to answer that at the moment.

European Council

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 23rd October 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Robathan (Con)]

My Lords—

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Taylor of Holbeach (Con)]

My Lords, I think we should hear from the Conservative Benches and then perhaps we can turn to the Labour Benches.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I set out earlier, and judging from the quotes I have read from a number of other leaders, there was a constructive relationship and a constructive discussion at the European Council. That is what we are focusing on and what will lead to these negotiations leading to a good deal for the EU and the UK, because that is in the best interests of both sides.

[Lord Campbell-Savours]

My Lords, may I press the Minister on the question of the Irish border? How can we be sure that the customs entry for a container of goods passing through a customs post at Newry, north of Dundalk, is an accurate list of the goods in the container without the right of customs to open the container and check the goods being transported against the entry? Effectively, that means a hard border. How can that be avoided?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As I have said, we have published our White Paper setting out our objectives for a new customs arrangement. Obviously, there is a lot of detail to work out but we are starting from the same place, which is that we do not want to return to the hard border of the past. We will work through these issues and deliver an outcome for the EU, the UK and Northern Ireland.

Grenfell Tower

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 22nd June 2017 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I am sure that local authorities are considering the sorts of issues that my noble friend has mentioned. As I said, what is most important is that we get the cladding checked on these buildings to make sure that we can truly identify where there may be issues and act quickly. That is why we have set up these testing centres, why we are turning round results as quickly as possible, and why we were very pleased, for instance, to see Camden’s very swift and impressive response once it discovered an issue with one of its blocks.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

Going back to the inquiry, quantity surveyors, the architects, the main contractors, the subcontractors, the building control officers and the planning officers of the council will all be asked many questions. Will their answers all appear in the interim report and will the findings of the inquiry at that stage also be in the interim report? In particular, I ask that the specifications originally set by the architect and approved, we have to assume, by the building control officers and the fire authorities, will be in the appendices of the interim report so that we can all see them, along with all the approval documentation and survey reports by all the organisations involved. Some of us will be more interested in seeing what is in those documents than reading the report itself, because we will probably want to make up our own mind.

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Obviously, it will be for the head of the inquiry to decide exactly how they want to conduct the inquiry. However, as I have said, we want to ensure that voices are heard and that the terms of reference of the inquiry cover all the issues that, rightly, families, victims and others want to see. I therefore assume that the judge who is appointed will be taking soundings and will have views on the terms of reference. I cannot speak for them about what the interim report will include but I think we are all very conscious of the fact that we want this to be done speedily and that we expect an interim report.

European Union (Notification of Withdrawal) Bill

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Monday 20th February 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, this is not an easy debate for me as, once again, I take a minority view within my party on Europe. I have supported union in Europe since the 1950s, living in Italy, as a student in Paris in the 1960s, and throughout the late 1960s and 1970s in business, while travelling almost monthly all over Europe. In 1974, I voted and canvassed for Common Market entry. Elected an MP in the late 1970s, I occasionally intervened in the Commons on European matters, invariably against a background of mild hostility from some of my Benches. I recall to this day sounds of disapproval from behind me while on my feet in the Chamber. We were a minority in the party, and would remain so until a speech by Jacques Delors in 1989 to the TUC, during which he argued for a European approach to rights at the place of work. His message was a challenge to the Conservative agenda of deregulation and weakened workers’ rights. That speech helped change Labour attitudes to Europe and we became pro-EEC.

My first concerns arose in the 1990s, prior to Amsterdam and Nice. Arguments over wider or deeper troubled me, with the prospect of an enlarged Europe with weaker economies out of sync with mainstream Europe seeking to join. The deeper union of fewer states was being opposed by many who wanted an enlarged union to dilute demands for closer integration. By 1999, the eurozone proposed at Maastricht was under way and, although I had been an early euro supporter, I knew that the beneficiary would be Germany which, while originally resisting the euro, now saw the benefits of a fixed currency relationship with neighbouring European states.

A premature euro was born and, with it, the seeds of Europe’s problems. The problems worsened when Europe turned a blind eye to manipulation of convergence criteria—even Greece was allowed in on the back of a fraudulent Goldman Sachs prospectus. Enlargement trumped all. Our dreams of European union were being shattered by German self-interest, French intransigence over the CAP, fraud in the Union, financial mismanagement in southern European states, an outdated contribution system, a block on financial services, the nonsense of the Parliament’s location and a failure to speak with one voice on migration. All were killing the dream.

The model was wrong. The construct was inflexible. I wanted a new model, but reform from within has proved utterly impossible. Much to the irritation of many friends, I voted Brexit, my justification to my colleagues being that by doing so I would be helping to provoke an argument over Europe’s direction of travel to be followed by a crucial, to my mind, second referendum. So where do we go from here? Two issues dominate the debate: the euro and migration. In my view, the euro is unlikely to survive unless we return to a core euro area.

The second issue, migration, is galvanising opinion across the Union, and I am convinced that the UK voted leave because of immigration at home and into the wider Europe. Merited or not, it is provoking instability. I believe that without the issue of immigration, even limited to from within Europe as it is, there would have been a substantial majority remain vote. That was the critical issue. National self-interest is blocking any reform from within, as is Commission obstinacy. No one is listening to the people, and it is our threat of withdrawal under Article 50 which is forcing Europe to open a debate.

When I say threat, I mean threat. I have never believed that we would withdraw, only reopen the debate on Europe. It is now full-on. The debate has been dominated for far too long by extreme movements in Europe. Let the sensible voice of Britain lead the debate on currency, migration, subsidiarity and our place in the world. We should be selling a new vision and a new timetable in the capitals of Europe. Yes, it is high-risk, but the people of Europe want change, and events are going to change everything. During this period of instability, to ease tensions will mean nation states reacquiring the right to control their borders and, in parts of the eurozone, restoration of national currencies. Arguments that single market rules preclude amendments to free movement completely ignore the dark clouds of intolerance that are now sweeping across the continent of Europe.

The eyes of Europe are now on us, and we have it in our grasp to set out a new vision, realising the dreams of those who believe in union. All we need is courage to put a new case. All the benefits of today can be restored tomorrow if we rebuild on firmer ground. A premature Union that is alienating its people needs to be reconfigured. We should lead, and the Bill begins the process.

Business of the House

Lord Campbell-Savours Excerpts

Thursday 8th December 2016 Lords Chamber

[Lord Grocott (Lab)]

My Lords, this is not really a question to the Leader of the House; it is more an observation about business today and tomorrow. My Bill to end the system of by-elections for hereditary Peers is in Committee tomorrow. It had its Second Reading on 9 September and has sleepily made its way through the procedures of the House. Since 9 September, there were just five amendments tabled, one of which was from me. Coming in this morning expecting a quiet day at the office, I discovered that 59 amendments had been tabled overnight. I make no complaint about that—people use the procedures of the House as they wish to—but I thought it would be for the convenience of the House that I pointed out today that there are nine pages of these amendments for a one-page Bill, which I think is probably a world record. If anyone is thinking of contributing tomorrow, my pointing that out may be helpful, because you will need an hour and a half with a towel over your head to work out the 59 amendments, but we all look forward to getting a successful Committee on the Bill tomorrow.

[Lord Campbell-Savours (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Leader of the House seen the very damaging publicity to the credibility of the House of Lords arising from the reporting in the national press of the existence of these 59 additional amendments? Is not the Leader of the House and her team rather worried about this? Would it not be wise if she were to prevail on those tabling the amendments to withdraw them to attempt to save the credibility of this institution?

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord graciously said, these amendments were tabled within the tabling deadline. I am afraid I do not have anything further that I can add, but I am sure there will be an interesting debate tomorrow during the course of the Bill.