Surplus Carbon Emissions

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 27th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I am afraid that the noble Baroness is incorrect; she needs to check her facts. There are a number of examples of working CCUS plants around the world. There is one in Canada, for instance; there are others as well. She is right that we are rolling it out in this country; there are two clusters we have identified, in the north-west and north-east of England—HyNet and the East Coast Cluster. We are in extensive negotiations with those clusters and want to make final investment decisions by quarter 3 this year, which will put the UK at the forefront of carbon capture in Europe.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Notwithstanding the success of the Government so far, how much of our being ahead of the curve is contributed by the fact that we have de-industrialised and de-manufactured over the last 40 years? We are now importing huge amounts of products but are not actually measuring their carbon content or taxing people bringing them in. It is not sustainable as we are going at the present time, is it?

Biomass: Power Generation

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 13th March 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord has asked me about this a number of times. As I have said to him, we are supportive of tidal power and are allocating funds to its development through the various CfD auctions. But I think he will recognise that it is not yet available at scale and in the quantities we would need. We are very proud of our renewable resources: almost 50% of our electricity production is now from renewables; we have the five biggest wind farms in the world; we are easily the biggest producer in Europe; and we are seeing lots of applications for solar development. Renewables are great, but it remains the case that they are not available all the time; we need more storage and back-up, and need other sources as well.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

At the risk of upsetting a few colleagues, I ask: is the Minister aware that some of the forests in Canada and America were originally planted for paper? The paper mills closed because paper was not wanted; towns were decimated because they were one-product towns for the paper mills. Drax came along and saved some of those towns in the early days.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not know the truth or not of that; I will take the noble Lord’s word for it. As I said, these are complicated matters involving a number of different factors.

Oil and Gas Windfall Tax

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 19th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said in response to a previous question, I cannot comment on any licensing decisions—we will know about them before too long—but I can assure the right reverend Prelate that all the appropriate considerations are being taken into account by the Government and the North Sea Transition Authority on the issuing of those licences.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I agree 100% with the Government’s nuclear policy but, bearing in mind that we want the success of renewables and the end of oil and gas, what assessment has been made of the fact that by 2050—which is not that far away—when the oil and gas is gone, we will be relying on nuclear for intermittency? That will leave the nuclear situation as a stranded asset, because it really does not work that way; it has got to be a formal baseload. Once the rest has gone and we are on renewables and left with nuclear, how can it be intermittent?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I totally understand the point the noble Lord is making. He is right that many renewables are very cheap but intermittent, and nuclear will contribute towards the baseload. He is asking for long-term energy storage; the answer is hydrogen. We can store large quantities of hydrogen—some really exciting projects are coming forward—and it can then be burned, with no emissions, in a power station to provide the supplies that we will need when the wind is not blowing and the sun is not shining.

Energy Prices Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Committee stage
Monday 24th October 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord asked me for an example. I have provided him with an example of one means that we envisage may be necessary. There could be other licensed modifications that we have not envisaged yet. As I said, this legislation has been drawn up at pace, using the excellent resources of lawyers and parliamentary counsel. It has been enacted very quickly. This is a clause that we think is necessary in order to, if you like, cover something that we have not thought of and that we have missed out in the Bill, but it is limited to use in the specific circumstances that the Bill requires.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Just for the record, Amendment 28 refers to subsection (5). Does the Minister think, and is it his advice, that subsection (5) is a Henry VIII clause or not?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

It is a power to give directions. Whether it qualifies as a Henry VIII power, I suppose depends on your definition of a Henry VIII power. Perhaps I may consult the lawyers and give the noble Lord a more detailed answer.

Additionally, there may be other circumstances—as I just said to the noble Lord—not yet known in which Clause 22(5) will be necessary to enable directions and the schemes that they are giving effect to to be implemented effectively with legal certainty and without undue delay. As I said, it is not unprecedented. A similar measure was included in the 1989 electricity regulations which we have just used to help implement this provision, and there has not been widespread abuse by a number of Secretaries of State from both parties who have been in office with that existing power since then. I understand noble Lords’ concerns, but history demonstrates that this is not unprecedented and noble Lords’ concerns are unwarranted.

Regarding Amendments 31 to 35, it is not uncommon for highly technical schemes to use tertiary legislation to provide for the detail of schemes, or for secondary legislation to enable directions to be made or provide that functions may be exercisable by persons named within them. These powers are crucial so that payments can be made for the energy bill relief scheme as quickly as possible—as I said, we are acting at pace, and I am grateful for the support of noble Lords to get this legislation through at pace—and to enable us to make any necessary changes to the technical nature and detail of the scheme as it becomes operational.

It is always the Government’s intention that delegated powers are appropriately limited and justified. Many powers in this Bill are already subject to the affirmative procedure and are expressly time limited. Other powers are subject to the requirement to use them in relation to the energy crises or in connection with other time-limited provisions in the Bill.

I return to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Rooker. I am told that it is not a Henry VIII power, but it has the same effect.

North Sea Gas

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 7th September 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, Great Britain has 1.5 billion cubic metres of gas storage capacity, which equates to approximately five days of peak January demand. Energy security is an absolute priority for the Government, and therefore we welcome Centrica taking the necessary steps to reopen the Rough storage facility this winter, which is its commercial decision. Last week, the North Sea Transition Authority granted its approval to Centrica to open Rough. Centrica has also received approvals from the Health and Safety Executive and Ofgem.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I thank the Minister for what I consider to be quite a positive Answer. However, does he agree that it is not alarmist to point out the bad decision of the then Chief Secretary, a former Shell employee, in 2017 to refuse the public contribution to maintaining the modest amount of gas storage in the Rough field? On the other hand, if it can be reopened this winter, Centrica was not telling the truth in 2017 about the safety and economic aspects of it. They cannot both be right. Is it not the case that we relied on the stock market and just in time, and this has cost the UK dear? We have a very low level of storage, as the Minister said, and Rough would give us an extra 10 days, compared to Italy which has 157 days. We are miles behind, and it is much better to have some security rather than the minimal amount that we have now. My final question is: can we stay part of the EU system for gas networks, if only for the fact that Ireland gets its gas via the UK?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord has made a number of points that deserve an answer. First, it was a commercial decision for Centrica to close the Rough storage facility. Secondly, the reason that the UK has traditionally had lower levels of underground storage than the likes of Italy or Germany is precisely because 45% of our own capacity is from our own domestic resources, which is essentially a huge gas storage facility. We also have 20% of all the LNG unloading facilities in Europe, and in fact the UK has been taking the opportunity during the summer to help the EU, including Germany and other countries, to refill their storage capacities using our LNG import facilities, because they did not have enough of them. So it is a complicated picture, but energy security is a great priority for us, and we are well placed for it.

Costs of Living

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 25th May 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord makes a good point, but, as a result of the price cap, most energy companies are hedging their supplies, based on current prices. There are plentiful supplies of LNG, but, of course, capacity able to be injected into the system is limited, due to our number of offshore loading points. We actually have a good number in the UK, but they are being fully utilised.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

What is the technical difficulty of changing benefits mid-year? Surely the big advantage of universal credit, bearing in mind that probably 60% of those who are really badly affected are in work, is that there is no distinction between being in or out of work. I do not understand the technical problem that has been raised. Universal credit is the quickest, easiest, most targeted thing for the Government to do. They do not need to wait, so why are they waiting?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said, the Chancellor is considering a range of options to mitigate the expected further energy price cap rise in October, and we keep that and all other matters under constant review.

Energy Security Strategy

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord’s question was somewhat contradictory. He complained that the strategy did not address some of the short-term problems but in the end, he referred to it as what it is: a long-term strategy. The clue is in the title. The reality is that it takes many years to put in place energy infrastructure, and it is right that the Government address these factors and look to the long term to make sure that we are putting in place the appropriate steps, such as the nuclear RAB Bill, to provide the long-term security of supply and power that the country needs. That does not obviate the difficulties that we have in the short term. As I suspect the noble Lord knows very well, I cannot comment on what the Chancellor may do in response before any future fiscal event, before the next price cap comes in. However, I can assure the noble Lord that the problems the nation faces with high energy prices are at the forefront of the Government’s consideration.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

I will make two brief points to the Minister, but as an aside on Drax, if memory serves me correct, when it started using the pellets, they were from trees in north America that had been grown for the printing industry, and the paper industry completely collapsed. Communities had been destroyed, and the fact that they could use this wood seemed a positive benefit. However, that may not currently be the case—it has been many years since I paid a visit.

On the nuclear issue, my noble friend is right in the sense that in 2009 the Labour Government left half a dozen sites for nuclear power stations, but the Statement is correct in that we lost 20 years. The Labour Government Cabinet was discussing this issue in late 2002 and early 2003. I was a simple Minister of State—I was not involved in that—but I remember writing a note for my Cabinet colleague, my senior. That is the kind of thing I remember because it was Christmas Day and I was sitting in Charing Cross Hospital at the time, as a visitor. The issue had been discussed but it was flattened by two or three members of the Cabinet. I will not name anybody, but that was a lost period.

The central issue I want to ask the Minister about was not referred to: batteries. The International Energy Agency has said that because of the use and storage of batteries for transport, propulsion and homes, the world will need a sixfold increase in lithium, cobalt and rare earths. Where are they processed? Some 60% of the world’s lithium is processed in China, as is 65% of the world’s cobalt, although it is mined in the Congo, where 40,000 children are involved in mining it. Some 87% of the world’s rare earths are processed in China. Therefore, the issue has to be, what do we do with colleagues and friendly countries—we cannot do it ourselves—to avoid in 20 years’ time being in the same position we are in now with gas and oil from Russia: being hooked to China for the metals we need for batteries? It is a grip that has enormous potential, and it needs dealing with now. I used the word “processing”; China is not mining it all but is controlling the process from the mining. A huge amount of cobalt comes from the Congo but it ends up being processed in China. China has a grip on this and I know people are trying to deal with it—I think the EU is—but the Government have to be part of a plan. They will not be able to do it on their own; they have to work with others. We need to cease dependence on such a large scale on metals that will be vital for our industries and our energy security.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord raises a number of important points. On the biomass supplying Drax, he is right that it is mainly produced from waste-wood sources that would otherwise not be utilised. I think he was agreeing that that was a mistake on the part of the Labour Government, who got elected in 1997 on a manifesto that said there was no case for new nuclear. It is easy for us to look back at mistakes made in the past but in retrospect, that was a mistake. This comes back to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Kerr: that in an advanced industrial country, this infrastructure takes many years to put in place. We let the UK nuclear industry wither on the vine because, of course, at the time we had ample supplies of clean gas and not so much concentration on climate change.

The noble Lord is in essence right about rare earths, but the Government are very well aware of this. A number of innovative battery technologies are also being developed but we are looking very closely at the necessity of various rare earths for existing battery technology, such as cobalt and lithium, and at where alternative supplies can be procured.

International Energy Agency Report

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Tuesday 26th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what steps they are taking to implement the recommendations in the International Energy Agency report, Playing my part: How to save money, reduce reliance on Russian energy, support Ukraine and help the planet, published on 21 April.

[The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy (Lord Callanan) (Con)]

My Lords, we are working closely with the US, the EU and other partners to end dependence on Russian oil and gas in response to Russia’s aggression in Ukraine, recognising the different circumstances and transition timelines. The net-zero strategy is the Government’s plan to achieve a green, sustainable future, including how we will support the public to play their part in this transition. We note the report’s recommendations and will continue to consider further steps to support the public.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, the UK is a member of the International Energy Agency, and I expected a more positive view. I fully accept that it is the Government’s role to take the national and the global view, but people want to be able to play their part and feel that they are contributing, above donations and above helping refugees. The nine points in the plan are voluntary except for one: speed limits. We could save an enormous amount of energy if we reduced the speed limit to 60 miles per hour, as we did during the three-day week. It is not a massive inconvenience for people and it saves a lot of energy. While I am uncomfortable talking about boiler temperatures when millions of people in Ukraine are living below ground at the present time, the estimate is that this plan could save 220 million barrels of oil and 17 billion cubic metres of gas. It is worth a real push by the Government to get people to play their part.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I do not disagree with the noble Lord. We are encouraging people to play their part and, of course, we encourage people to drive as slowly as possible and responsibly. We encourage people to turn down the temperature of their boiler if this can be achieved while still heating their home properly and providing the appropriate levels of comfort. Of course we will support people to make responsible choices.

Economic Crime: Planned Government Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Monday 31st January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Indeed, the register of overseas entities Bill is currently tied up in the economic crime Bill, which we hope to make progress on as quickly as possible. However, I do not want to rule out any alternative legislative routes that might present themselves. As the noble Lord will be aware, it has gone through pre-legislative scrutiny and was well received by the committee that looked at it. We have incorporated some of the suggestions that were made. Of course, I cannot commit to what may, or may not, be in Her Majesty’s speech, but clearly a key element of taking forward this work is liaising closely with the overseas territories, which we will do.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Will the Bill, when it arrives, fulfil the commitments that David Cameron made in his seminal speech in Singapore?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I cannot give the noble Lord a commitment about when a Bill might arrive. I also cannot give a commitment about what might be in it when it does arrive.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thought that I had come to answer questions on an economic crime Bill, but I see that we are getting into party-political donations again. That is not a matter for which I am, or my department is, responsible, so I am unable to furnish the noble Baroness with a response to her question.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

You are answering for the Government.

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, those who decide to perpetrate economic crime are apparently targeted, swift and very bright about how they do it. I read the Statement and it mentions the Home Office, the Treasury and BEIS. Is it not time for more targeted, thought-through, quick action by government, rather than action that is divided across too many departments?

Non-UK Residents: Property Ownership Register

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Tuesday 2nd November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As my noble friend will know, I agree with him. We want to legislate on this as quickly as possible. The UK is one of the world’s largest and most open economies, and the UK and London are among the world’s most attractive destinations for legitimate businesses and overseas investors. That is a good thing, but it exposes the UK to the risk of money laundering. That is why we are being about tackling illicit financial flows through the Economic Crime Plan and why we will proceed with this legislation.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Has the Minister heard of Roberto Saviano? He is the Italian expert on the Mafia who has to live constantly under police protection. His professional view is that the UK is the most corrupt country in the world, mainly due to the so-called neutral city enablers servicing rich criminals. The Minister’s answers go some way to explaining why that view prevails.

Sovereign Defence Capability: Meggitt Takeover

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 15th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

Those are competition concerns. I am in a difficult position, as noble Lords will understand. It is a quasi-judicial process, and it would not be appropriate for me to comment on the details of the specific commercial transactions of any security or competition assessments that are currently taking place.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

When manufacturing and defence of the realm are concerned, I want a hard-line, patriotic Minister, not a weak, sell-out capitalist. Which is the Secretary of State?

Post Brexit: Small Service Businesses

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Monday 24th May 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Baroness makes some very good points, and I know that she has raised this point about the provision of services before. Regarding the creation of the creative export office, I will speak to my colleagues in DCMS who have responsibility for this and write to her with the details.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I told my colleagues that I would try to sweep up any questions the Minister did not answer, but I have so many to choose from that it is difficult. However, in at least two of his answers, he has been very critical of the EU. In answer to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, he implied that the EU was not being sincere or constructive in practice and, in his answer to the question from my noble friend Lord Hain, he said that the EU is not a willing partner in discussion. We cannot carry on like this. We have left the EU. That is it: we have left. The consistent inability to do deals, to talk to the EU and to accept that it might be a willing partner and that the problem might be with us is very difficult. Will the Minister try to answer those two questions again please?

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

As I said to the noble Baroness, Lady Ludford, the UK’s proposals on input from the sector were repeatedly rejected by the EU and the EU’s proposals would not have addressed many of the sector’s concerns. They were non-binding and did not include touring.

Energy White Paper

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 16th December 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for his support. It is an interesting suggestion; I think I am correct in saying that the grant system for the production of charging points is available to churches, but if it is not I will certainly write to him on that. He is right that we need to transform the energy delivery system from one that was designed for large nodes in a fossil fuel world to a much more diversified system of national and local energy production. His comments are well made.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

I am very pleased to see the Statement—the White Paper is winging its way to me at the moment. I am a bit disappointed that there was no mention in it of a potential barrage scheme or about the potential of small modular reactors. Could the Minister expand on those issues? The news about Sizewell C is excellent, but, if it is going to replicate Hinkley in the main, as I understand it will, why will it take so long? Can we not do some regulatory and other approvals in tandem? Speed is of the essence here, without skimping on safety. It should not take decades from the decision to go ahead to get the power out of a nuclear power station. I urge all speed on this.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord’s comments are well made. We all find frustrating the length of time it takes to do anything in this country with the planning system and all the approvals needed, but safety is critical. We must make sure that everything is safe, has the proper approvals and goes through all the proper planning processes, et cetera. I accept his disappointment about barrage systems, but the key point is that these are all different systems with different considerations and investment appraisals. Some of these schemes were extremely optimistic; we have to try to select systems and projects that are good value for money, but we always bear all these systems in mind and are interested in future schemes coming forward for investment appraisal.

Covid-19: Vaccine Taskforce

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Tuesday 10th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

She has declared all her relevant conflicts of interest in line with normal public sector appointments, and they have all been managed and agreed with officials in my department. She was not responsible for appointing Admiral PR; it was done under normal civil service procurement procedures by officials.

[Lord Rooker (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, the Minister has mentioned the task force several times. Who is on the task force? Why do we not know their names? Who appointed the task force? I have seen a reference to a vice-chair, but I understand that, when someone asked about this under freedom of information, all they got was a list of redacted sheets of paper. It is quite important to know who is on the task force to see their expertise, how they were appointed, why they were chosen and what interests they have. The Minister said more than once that Kate Bingham is unpaid; she can afford to be unpaid because, as he made quite clear, she is still working in the sector that she is currently governing. That is quite a serious issue. Is the Minister not somewhat uneasy that not a single Conservative Peer has come forward today to ask a question that supports the Government? I have never known such a case in my experience. He can answer what he chooses, or choose not to answer.

[Lord Callanan (Con)]

The noble Lord, Lord Bilimoria, was supportive, and he is not a Conservative Peer but an independent Cross-Bencher. The task force consists of a number of specialists in their fields from the Civil Service, the military and private sector organisations, all attempting to get the UK a vaccine that will solve the Covid problem. I would have thought the noble Lord would welcome that.

Brexit Readiness and Operation Yellowhammer

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Wednesday 25th September 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I think the noble Baroness has had too much sun during her vacation. I think I am correct in saying that we already have higher caged bird standards—we certainly used to—than most other EU member states and higher animal welfare standards. It is EU legislation that permits the export of live animals, for instance. We have an excellent record of animal protection and welfare in this country, and that is something that we will want to continue.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

My Lords, can I ask the Minister about an aspect of Yellowhammer that he did not refer to and which follows from what the noble Lord, Lord Kerr, said about the reasonable worst-case planning assumptions? In the last few days, the Government have published their response to the humble Address, submitted under Standing Order 24 on 9 September. That of course contains the document, Operation Yellowhammer: HMG Reasonable Worst Case Planning Assumptions. In paragraph 20, the very last paragraph of that statement, they make promises about social care. Issues are raised, including provider failure, transport and staff disruption, and all the other stuff. The very last sentence says that they,

“will look at the status of preparations in four local authorities, which are identified as priority concerns, by mid-August”.

I am not stupid. I read that as saying that four local authorities are on the verge of collapse in the provision of social care if there is no deal, whether because of staff, transport or anything else. That is clearly stated in the document but there is no reference in the Statement today to social care—none whatever. The promise was to be met by mid-August. The noble Lord, Lord Kerr, has already said that the Secretary of State who signed all this stuff gave evidence on 9 September, which will be published. It is a simple question: will the Minister name the four local authorities that are a priority concern to the Government? It does not matter whether it was in early August—it is dated 2 August—or whether it is next week: which four authorities are on the verge of collapse in social care?

[Lord Callanan]

Let me explain to the noble Lord what these assumptions are all about. The Cabinet’s civil contingencies unit prepares the reasonable worst-case assumptions and then we do our best, working across the whole panoply of government, to mitigate those scenarios. In the case of social care, we are working closely with local authorities; this morning we had reports at a Cabinet committee from local resilience forums and from the devolved Administrations. The Secretary of State for Housing, Communities and Local Government is working closely with all local authorities and with the local resilience forums to mitigate the possible impacts in social care, and across all the other areas that local authorities are responsible for. We have extremely good, collaborative working across the piece on this matter.

Brexit: Options

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Monday 18th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

I did of course listen carefully last week to the speech of the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, and I paid tribute to him at the end of the debate. But, as the noble Lord will be aware, we do not think that a customs union border in the Irish Sea is acceptable for the constitutional integrity of our country.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Are any Ministers going to Tokyo to discuss with Honda the announcement it has just made about closing the Swindon factory in 2022? Is this not relevant to parliamentary opinion at all?

Brexit: Legislative Timetable

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Monday 7th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Of course, it will be a challenge, but I am sure all Members of this House want to see us leave the European Union in a smooth and orderly manner, which requires the appropriate legislation to be put in place.

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

How many of the statutory instruments that the Government have submitted to both Houses for scrutiny have been sent back by the sifting committees because they were put forward as negative instruments but the sifting committees think Ministers are slipping policy issues through and have recommended they be upgraded to affirmative instruments? How many are still in the queue for the Government to look at whether to upgrade them to affirmative instruments? This delay is caused purely by the Government, not the sifting committees.

[Lord Callanan]

I never said there was any delay caused by the sifting committees. They are carrying out the proper role allocated to them by this House and by the legislation. We are accepting all their recommendations. If they think SIs should not be negative but positive, our record is that we have accepted all their recommendations so far.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Committee: 7th sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 14th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Callanan]

Touché, as they say.

We are committed to exploring with the EU the terms on which the UK could remain part of EU agencies. However, our future relationship with the EU and arrangements with regards to agencies such as the food safety authority are still to be determined and are the subject of ongoing negotiations. I would give the noble Lord the same response to his comments on the RASFF system.

[Lord Rooker]

Is it possible to have an answer to the only question that I asked? Are we going to stay a member of the rapid alert food and feed system? If we do not, we are in real trouble. I cannot see the arrangements for that—nobody ever talks about it—but it is pretty crucial. Are we going to stay in that system?

[Lord Callanan]

I cannot give an absolute guarantee that we will; it is a matter for the negotiations. However, I can certainly tell the noble Lord that we see the value of it, and it is one of the many EU agencies and systems that we will seek to continue to collaborate with.

In response to Amendment 146, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Puttnam, whose illness I was sorry to hear about, and Amendment 147, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, I can say that the Government want to seek the best possible outcome for the UK’s creative industries following the negotiations with the EU. In response to the question from the noble Lord, Lord Wigley, we are considering all our options for participation in future EU funding programmes, including the Creative Europe programme.

As the Prime Minister has already made clear, the UK will not be part of the EU’s digital single market, which will continue to develop after our withdrawal from the EU. This is a fast-evolving, innovative sector in which the UK is a world leader.

In response to Amendment 147C, tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, who has yet again spoken very effectively on this topic, as she did on Monday evening, the Government fully recognise the central role that transport will play in supporting our new trading relationships as we leave the EU. As I set out in my response on Monday, our ambition for transport is to maintain and develop the current levels of transport connectivity between the UK and the EU to underpin our future trading relationship.

The noble Baroness, Lady Deech, asked me about aviation agreements. She is of course correct to say that all worldwide aviation agreements are concluded on a bilateral basis, as are most of our existing aviation agreements. We benefit from a number of these as part of the single sky policy through our membership of the EU and we are currently discussing replacing those agreements with the countries concerned.

--- Later in debate ---

[Lord Callanan]

I apologise to the noble Baroness, but I do not think I used the word “flexible” in respect of that agency. I said that the agency does some valuable work, as do a number of other EU agencies, and that is one matter that we need to discuss.

[Lord Rooker]

Will the Minister accept that it is not an agency? Get briefed. Have a look at the annual report of RASFF. It is a 24/7 system that is incredibly simple. That is why it works. We are either in it to give notifications or to receive notifications. You cannot be half in and half out. I should have thought this was non-negotiable, to be honest.

[Lord Callanan]

The noble Lord is right: it is not an agency. I was referring to the food safety agency. As I have said, the system, or whatever we want to call it, does good work, we value our participation in it and it is one of the things that we will want to raise as an urgent priority in the negotiation, as will be our participation in a number of agencies mentioned by the Prime Minister.

I am sure that noble Lords will return to this debate at Report, and I am more than willing to engage closely with any noble Lords who wish to talk about these issues in the interim. I hope—I suspect that I have not—that I have helped to allay some of noble Lords’ concerns in this debate and that the noble Lords will feel able to withdraw their amendments.

European Union (Withdrawal) Bill

Debate between Lord Callanan and Lord Rooker

Committee: 6th sitting (Hansard - continued): House of Lords
Monday 12th March 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Rooker (Lab)]

Before the Minister responds, I want to spend a couple of minutes on a highly relevant issue that has not been raised on this Bill at all.

Following the BSE crisis, which was very damaging to the economy, an all-island animal feed arrangement was created in Ireland. It is not generally appreciated that there are a disproportionate number of animals for food production on the island of Ireland, hence its exports to the rest of the world: 15% of the world’s infant formula market is controlled by the dairy industry on the island of Ireland. The animal feed situation, which is crucial, is controlled by the ports around the island of Ireland. After Brexit, the EU will be ultra-sensitive—do not forget that we are the country that gave the world BSE—about the imports of animal feed. Given that there already exists an all-Ireland animal feed arrangement, and all-Ireland control mechanisms at the ports and the mills, how will this work after Brexit for the transport between the north and the south from the feed mills and ports? It simply will not be possible to drive a lorry full of feed across the border into Europe without it being checked. I cannot understand why this issue never gets raised. A third of what we grow feeds animals—it is a huge amount of business. We are what we eat, of course, and the animals are produced that way. What will happen in the island of Ireland to the existing animal feed arrangements? It is highly relevant to this debate.

[Lord Callanan]

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for this debate on Amendments 104 and 231, which raise the important matter of frontier control procedures and freight transport in relation to the Clause 7(1) power. I am particularly grateful to the noble Lord for his helpful technical and operational suggestions. I would have passed them on to my colleagues in the Department for Transport but my noble friend Lady Sugg has already taken careful note of them and I am sure she would like to take them forward with him personally.

I am pleased to reassure the noble Lord that discussions in this field continue with all those involved in the running of our roads and railways and the freight services that use them. How these services and the procedures involved continue to operate after our exit is, however, a matter to be negotiated with the EU. In the event that there is no negotiated outcome, Her Majesty’s Revenue and Customs will treat EU trade as it currently treats third country trade, which means that businesses trading with the EU will need to comply with additional customs requirements. The Government recognise that this represents a change to how UK businesses currently trade with EU firms and so we will model new customs processes and procedures on the existing Union customs code.

The noble Lord’s amendment would prevent the making of regulations in certain scenarios but it does not, and cannot, do anything to prevent those scenarios arising. This will be determined purely by what happens in the negotiations. All it would do in the unhappy situation that we did not secure a satisfactory agreement with the EU is to leave us unable to reflect that situation in domestic law, which of course would only make the position worse. Furthermore, any report that was carried out before the outcome of the negotiations would necessarily be speculative and so would lack a certain utility.

Happily, I can tell the noble Lord that the transport of goods is incredibly important to both the UK and the EU, as many noble Lords have pointed out, and there is a strong mutual interest in reaching an ambitious agreement which maximises the benefits for all businesses and individuals. As such, the Government aim to negotiate for the most tariff and barrier-free trade with our European neighbours, as the Prime Minister said in her speech last week. The Government will ensure that appropriate measures are taken when implementing whatever may be agreed. It will be done in a phased process, thereby providing businesses with enough time to plan and prepare for the new arrangements, minimising disruption.

Whatever the outcome of the negotiations, the Government believe that it is in the interests of both the UK and the EU to have efficient and effective frontier control procedures to achieve one of the strategic objectives of ensuring that UK-EU trade is as frictionless as possible. We will continue to meet our commitment to keeping Parliament fully informed on these negotiations and allow for proper scrutiny, including through regular statements and in our support for the work of committees in this House and the other place. I hope I have reassured the noble Lord that the Government will work hard on securing an agreement with the EU that works well for all in the road and rail freight sectors and I therefore ask that he will withdraw his amendment.