Legacy of Northern Ireland’s Past
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, like the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, I have spent many, many hours in meetings with victims and survivors of the Troubles and was also heavily involved in the Stormont House negotiations in 2014. My noble friend will be aware that all previous attempts by successive Governments to deal with legacy have foundered because of lack of consensus in Northern Ireland. None the less, is it not the case that for any proposals to succeed, they will require significant support from across the community? Can he therefore assure the House that legitimate points and concerns raised during this short and intensive consultation will be fully and properly considered?
Secondly, does my noble friend agree with me that without the contribution and sacrifice of the Royal Ulster Constabulary George Cross and the Armed Forces, there would have been no peace process in Northern Ireland and no 1998 agreement? Will he, therefore, picking up on the point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, assure me and the House that this Conservative and Unionist Government will never accept any equivalence between those who upheld the rule of law in Northern Ireland and those terrorists who sought to destroy it?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
On the last point, my noble friend is right that there is no moral equivalence between veterans and service personnel who defended the rule of law and those who sought to destroy it, particularly from terrorist organisations. On the way forward, and slightly repeating what I said earlier, we will enter an intensive but brief period to engage with all parts of the community, including victims’ groups, to allow them to discuss and consider their proposals. On my noble friend’s point about the RUC and the Armed Forces, they have served with bravery, professionalism and distinction but, it must be said, with some exceptions.
Northern Ireland: Jewish Community
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I do not agree with some of the points that the noble Baroness makes, because the protocol was really a compromise. It was always clear that it was a delicate balance designed, crucially, to support the Good Friday agreement and to maintain Northern Ireland’s place in the UK while protecting the EU single market. The question, of course, is how it is applied. I point out to her that under the detail of the protocol, it is not simply about putting a goods and customs border in place between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. For example, Article 6(2) says that the UK and EU
“shall use their best endeavours to facilitate the trade between Northern Ireland and other parts of the United Kingdom … with a view to avoiding controls at the ports and airports of Northern Ireland to the extent possible”,
so we need to look at that.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, as my noble friend Lord Dodds made clear, the Jewish community has made a huge contribution to the city of Belfast, including providing a unionist Lord Mayor as far back as 1899. Does my noble friend the Minister agree that it would be both tragic and outrageous if this latest crazy manifestation of the EU’s implementation of the protocol now forces that community to leave Northern Ireland altogether? How do supplies of kosher food to a small Jewish population in any way threaten the integrity of the EU single market?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I do not disagree with my noble friend’s last point. Again, the Jewish community has made an important contribution to society in Northern Ireland. It is essential that that community receives the kosher products that it requires, for eating and for religious purposes. A key focus is to support the community in this respect. As I said to the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, it is vital that we find a way forward to ensure that these goods flow smoothly.
Ballymurphy Inquest Findings
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, having met the Ballymurphy families a number of times, I commend their dignity and tenacity and express the genuine hope that the coroner’s conclusions, which are clear, provide them with some comfort. On the past, given that the Stormont House agreement, which I helped to negotiate, is now nearly six and a half years old and that its legacy sections have yet to be implemented, is it not right that we look at possible alternative approaches that protect those who served and provide better outcomes for victims and survivors of terrorism? Finally, does my noble friend agree that, while we do not defend the reputation of the British Army by defending the indefensible, as in this case, the vast majority of those who served did so with courage, professionalism and restraint and all of us owe them and the RUC a huge debt?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I agree with my noble friend that the current system is working for no one, failing to bring satisfactory outcomes for families and placing a heavy burden on the criminal justice system, leaving society in Northern Ireland hamstrung by its past. But we must never forget, dismiss or ignore the past. We must find a way forward to move beyond it, which is why the Government want to deliver a process that will, as I said earlier, allow all individuals or families who want information to seek and receive answers about what happened during the Troubles. On my noble friend’s point about the Armed Forces, the UK Government are committed to delivering on their commitments to Northern Ireland veterans.
Northern Ireland: Citizens’ Rights
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I cannot confirm the actual date. I was drawn in on the BIIGC the other day and I understand the sentiments expressed by the noble Baroness, but I cannot give any further information. She will know that that we are aware of its potential operation.
Lord Caine (Con)
Does my noble friend agree that a clear majority of people in Northern Ireland continues freely and legitimately to support the union on the basis of their
“cherished position of equal citizenship in the United Kingdom”?
Can he assure the House that this Government will always defend and uphold that fundamental position of equal citizenship for all the people of Northern Ireland against any threat, including in relation to the EU’s implementation of the protocol?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I believe my noble friend makes the right emphasis. The Government firmly believe that UK nationality law is consistent with their Belfast agreement obligations and therefore with equal citizenship within the UK. The Government have always stressed the importance of the union and Northern Ireland’s place within it. We share, as my noble friend will know, so many cultural, social and economic ties that make for greater prosperity and for security.
Northern Ireland: Violence
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
As the noble Baroness will respect, the immediate priority is to provide the Executive and the PSNI with the support needed to manage the current unrest. However, we continue to consider a range of options to support their efforts in the medium term. These include the British-Irish Intergovernmental Conference—the BIIGC, to which the noble Baroness referred—which is an important element of strand 3 of the Belfast/Good Friday agreement and stands to promote bilateral co-operation at all levels and in all matters of mutual interest.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the recent disgraceful, totally unjustified and counterproductive violence in Northern Ireland has a number of different causes, many of them going back many years? To suggest that this is solely about Brexit is wilfully ignorant of the situation in Northern Ireland. Is it not the case that this Government remain wholly committed to upholding all strands of the Belfast agreement and, in addition to a robust criminal justice response, the Executive urgently need to focus on those policies designed to build a genuinely shared future for all the people of Northern Ireland?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My noble friend makes some sensible points. He is right that the reasons for the unrest are complex and multifarious, some to do with localised issues. The House will know that 10 April this year marks 23 years since the Belfast/Good Friday agreement was signed—an achievement of which the UK, Ireland and the US are justifiably proud and which led to transformative change. Today it falls to the people of Northern Ireland to decide what sort of society they want. It is clear that they are choosing the right path, which is to build an inclusive, prosperous and hopeful society that builds on the hard-won peace.
Northern Ireland: Victims’ Payment Scheme
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie(3 years, 11 months ago)
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Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I agree with the noble Baroness’s comments in terms of the comments made by Naomi Long, who, again, is working extremely hard to put systems in place, establish the necessary resources and hire the appropriate experienced people. This is what is required to get to the right point. We hope that the month of March will be the launch pad from which payments can be made to victims.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, what is the current understanding between the UK Government and the Northern Ireland Executive as to who is responsible for funding this scheme? During my time in the Northern Ireland Office, it was clearly a devolved competence. Does my noble friend agree that, out of a block grant of some £15 billion, it ought to be perfectly realistic to expect the Sinn Féin Finance Minister to find the money for these long-overdue payments?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I touched on this earlier. As my noble friend will know, the funding for the scheme is to come from the block grant. The regulations provide for the Executive Office to provide funding to the department responsible for supporting the victims’ payments board. The devolved funding settlement means that the Executive are funded through the block grant—which, by the way, is £14.1 billion for 2020-21—together with Northern Ireland’s own revenue-raising capabilities to fund their statutory responsibilities.
Patrick Finucane: Supreme Court Judgment
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I agree that the Finucane murder was particularly dreadful and high profile. We should never forget it, but it would be wrong to make comparisons with other dreadful crimes that took place. We are adamant that the right way forward is to make progress in dealing with the legacy of the past in Northern Ireland. I reassure the House that this remains a high priority for the Government. We remain committed to bringing forward legislation as soon as possible because we want information recovery and reconciliation to be at the heart of a revised legacy system that is fair and proportionate and delivers for victims from all communities. As part of this, we will engage closely with the Northern Ireland parties on proposals in the near future. It is important that we listen to a wide range of voices on this to find a way through. The point is that we need to look forwards, not backwards, while equally looking at the legacy of the past.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I declare an interest in that, from 2010, when the new Government inherited a complete impasse, to 2019 I participated in every key meeting on the Finucane case and helped to draft David Cameron’s statement in 2012. On that basis, I assure my noble friend that the announcement made by the Secretary of State on Monday is the right one. It has my full support and is entirely consistent with the requirements set out in the Supreme Court judgment.
This was a vile murder for which there was no justification, as with many thousands of others in Northern Ireland over the period of the Troubles. Does my noble friend agree that the right approach to legacy is not having highly selective, one-sided, open-ended and costly public inquiries but establishing mechanisms which have broad community support and the potential to offer better outcomes for all those who lost loved ones in the Troubles? David Cameron was right to say that collusion is always wrong, but we should never forget that the vast majority of those who served in Northern Ireland in the RUC and the Armed Forces did so with exemplary professionalism, integrity and bravery.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I acknowledge the experience of my noble friend and all the time he has spent dealing with Northern Irish matters. I assure the House that this decision has been taken following very careful consideration of the facts, the findings of the Supreme Court judgment, the outcome of the independent counsel review, and the UK’s obligations under Article 2. It is important to remember that the Supreme Court judgment did not mandate a public inquiry, as I said earlier, and it specifically set out that it is for the state to decide.
On another question that he raised, there is no doubt that the collusion identified in this case is, as I said earlier, totally unacceptable. But we must also be clear about the high standards that almost all those who serve in our Armed Forces adhere to, performing in incredibly difficult circumstances to protect this country. So many people from both the Armed Forces and the security services give so much to protecting us, in Northern Ireland and across the UK. Finally, we agree that finding a way forward on legacy that works for all victims is a priority.
Covid-19: Northern Ireland Economy
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Lord Caine
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the number of jobs saved in Northern Ireland as a result of the measures they have introduced to deal with the economic consequences of the Covid-19 pandemic.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, the UK Government’s unprecedented employment support package has protected an estimated 327,000 jobs—that is, one in four. Government-backed loans worth more than £1.3 billion have been given to more than 35,000 firms since the outbreak. Under the winter economic plan, Northern Ireland businesses will continue to receive the help that they need, including an extension to government schemes—including the furlough scheme and the Self-employment Income Support Scheme—and an extension of VAT reductions for hospitality.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I thank my noble friend for that reply. Do these figures not underline, yet again, the strength and security that Northern Ireland gains from being an integral part of the United Kingdom—benefits that could not be matched under any other constitutional arrangement? Do they not also underline the fact that all four parts of the United Kingdom are better together? Does my noble friend agree that the Government need to be proactive in selling the economic and other benefits of the union in all parts of the United Kingdom, including Northern Ireland?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My noble friend is correct in what he says—we strongly believe in upholding the constitutional integrity of the United Kingdom, as he has also said. Our four nations are safer, stronger and more prosperous together. On that note, Northern Ireland benefits from being part of the world’s sixth largest economy, which allows it to benefit from the highest public spending per head: £11,987, which is 21% higher than the UK spends per head.
Northern Ireland: Commission for Victims and Survivors
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
The noble Lord echoes the wise words of the previous commissioner. Though he will know that the appointment of a new commissioner is a matter for the Northern Ireland Executive, I understand that the First and Deputy First Ministers are currently considering the options for the post of the Commissioner for Victims and Survivors.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, in dealing with legacy issues in Northern Ireland, will the Government always be mindful of the tremendous sacrifice of the Royal Ulster Constabulary and our Armed Forces, who are the real unsung heroes of the peace process? Furthermore, will they continue robustly to challenge those who seek to rewrite history to justify acts of terrorism, as, to his credit, the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland did recently in response to an appalling tweet by a serving member of the Northern Ireland Policing Board eulogising the Maze prison escape, in which one man died and another was shot in the head?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My noble friend is right to draw attention to the brief comments made by the Secretary of State. He, with many others, is working hard to help all communities in Northern Ireland move away from the past and look to the future, including giving hope to future generations.
United Kingdom Government-Northern Ireland Executive Joint Board
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Lord Caine (Con)
Will the agenda for the next meeting of the joint board include the establishment of a UK government hub in Northern Ireland, which is envisaged in the New Decade, New Approach document, was a commitment in the last two Conservative Northern Ireland manifestos and would underline the importance that we attach to Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My noble friend makes a good point about emphasising the union. This Government continue to want to show the importance of the union and how all parts of the UK, including Northern Ireland, benefit from it. The city deals are one example of direct funding to the devolved Administrations.
Northern Ireland: Victims Payment Scheme
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie(4 years, 3 months ago)
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Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I think this must be the third or fourth question on this matter; I believe I have answered that. The funding is there, and there are other ways in which this goes forward, but the funding is not a block.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, like the noble Lord, Lord Hay of Ballyore, I deplore the way in which Sinn Féin has frustrated this scheme. Does my noble friend agree that Sinn Féin’s obstructionism of victims’ payments is part of a broader narrative on its part that seeks to rewrite the history of the Troubles and legitimise the activities of the Provisional IRA? Will he confirm that this Government will always resist any such attempts to rewrite history in this way, and will never accept any kind of equivalence between the victims and perpetrators of terrorism, and indeed the perpetrators of terrorism and the security forces?
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
I believe my noble friend is alluding to the guidance we have published recently. The guidance will support the independent board, whose job it is to decide on what payments are made and to whom. I reiterate to my noble friend that the UK is, and remains, fundamentally opposed to the notion of terrorists receiving compensation. We have clarified that the guidance does not apply to people injured by their own hand.
Northern Ireland: Paramilitary Groups
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Lord Caine
To ask Her Majesty’s Government what support they are giving to (1) journalists, and (2) politicians, in Northern Ireland who have received death threats from paramilitary groups.
Viscount Younger of Leckie (Con)
My Lords, journalists play a vital role in our society, as do the public representatives who have defended press freedoms. It is unacceptable that they should find themselves threatened for doing their job. We give the fullest possible support to efforts to tackle the threat from groups involved in terrorism and paramilitarism in Northern Ireland, supporting the PSNI with additional security funding and the Northern Ireland Executive’s programme to tackle paramilitary activity, criminality and organised crime.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend agree that the recent death threats to journalists and politicians in Northern Ireland from paramilitary groups are, quite frankly, beyond despicable and have no place in any society based on democracy and the rule of law? The 2015 fresh start agreement, which I helped to negotiate, contained a number of commitments to tackle paramilitary activity. However, while some progress has been made, it is limited. Does he agree that everyone in Northern Ireland should be able to go about their daily business without threat or the fear of threat, and that we now urgently need a renewed, serious effort to put all paramilitary groups—they were never justified in the past and have no justification today—out of business for good?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My noble friend makes some excellent points. I read his article this morning and share his frustration. Ending paramilitarism and the harm caused by it is a priority in the new programme for government. He will know that these are complex issues which require a long-term approach. A targeted approach to tackling paramilitarism across the Executive is also recognised in the New Decade, New Approach agreement.
Victims of the Troubles: Payment Scheme
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie [V]
I agree with the noble Lord that huge efforts must continue to be made to get this on track. I reassure him that funding is not the issue—it is not delaying this—and the UK Government have been very generous in terms of the financial contributions connected to New Decade, New Approach; he will know that £2 billion has been set aside. So the UK Government have done their part, and it is now up to the Northern Ireland Executive, including Sinn Féin, to take the matter forward.
Lord Caine (Con) [V]
My Lords, as one of the negotiators of the Stormont House agreement, I share the widespread dismay over these delays to victims’ payments. Is this not entirely down to one party seeking to reopen the eligibility criteria for such payments by basing them on the badly flawed definition of a victim in the 2006 order? Does it remain the Government’s view that it would be just wrong for anybody who injured themselves while carrying out an act of terrorism, or who served a prison sentence for a terrorist offence, to receive a single penny of taxpayers’ money?
Viscount Younger of Leckie [V]
My noble friend is right, and that is set down in the regulations. We know that Sinn Féin has said that it wants to look at redefining “victim”. However, it will know, and we know, that it is already set out in the legislation. Therefore we urge Sinn Féin to put aside its differences and move forward quickly on this matter.
Northern Ireland: Victims Payment Scheme
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I am totally in line with the frustrations expressed by the noble Baroness. This delay is extremely disappointing, which is why the Secretary of State, the First Minister, the Deputy First Minister and parties are working with a great degree of urgency to take things forward.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, victims and survivors who have campaigned for so long and with such dignity will be rightly angry and devastated by the latest setback. Does my noble friend agree that, going right back to the 2014 Stormont House agreement, it was always envisaged that any scheme for victims’ payments would be administered by the Northern Ireland Executive and financed through the substantial block grant that they receive? Will he now ask our right honourable friend the Secretary of State to meet again with the First and Deputy First Ministers as a matter of urgency, so that this issue can be resolved without any further delay?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Indeed. My noble friend is right that the funding of the scheme is to come from the block grant, to be “Barnettised”; this is a devolved matter, and devolved matters are funded through the block grant. He is also right that the Northern Ireland Executive committed to finding a way forward on this matter as far back as 2014. I will certainly pass on the message about the meetings, but I reassure my noble friend that they are happening at different levels, particularly the most senior ones; one happened only yesterday between the Secretary of State and the First Minister and Deputy First Minister.
Northern Ireland: Customs
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie
I should make it clear to the noble Baroness that the Government have no intention of extending the transition period. Discussions are progressing well, and they are very constructive. The joint committee and the special committees are working to take forward the detail, which is so important for the protocol.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, does my noble friend the Minister accept that many genuine unionists share the concern so ably expressed by our noble friend Lord Empey and seek reassurances in these areas? Does he also agree that it would be quite wrong for anyone, not least those who have never in the past knowingly championed the Ulster unionist cause, to seek now to exploit this issue with irresponsible scaremongering about the end of the union simply to try to prove a point about Europe and Brexit, and that to do so risks undermining the delicate political stability that we now have in Northern Ireland?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My noble friend makes some good points, and he allows me to reiterate that, below the surface, there is a lot of extremely important and constructive work going on to ensure that what we have said—what we have promised and guaranteed—will indeed be undertaken.
United Kingdom Government-Northern Ireland Executive Joint Board
Debate between Lord Caine and Viscount Younger of Leckie
Viscount Younger of Leckie
My noble friend is right, and I know he takes an interest in these matters. There is broad agreement that the current approach to legacy issues in Northern Ireland is not working well for anybody. That is why this Government are committed to address the legacy of the past in Northern Ireland in a way that provides certainty for veterans and justice for victims. The Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is working very closely with the Ministry of Defence, the Office for Veterans’ Affairs and other Whitehall departments to develop proposals.
Lord Caine (Con)
My Lords, I echo the sentiments expressed by my noble friend Lord Lexden about the joint UK Government-Northern Ireland Executive board, the establishment of which I very strongly support. My noble friend the Minister will be aware that, following the Stormont House agreement and the fresh start agreement in 2015, we established an implementation group which regularly provided updates on progress. Does my noble friend agree that, in the interest of accountability and transparency, which was very much highlighted by the RHI report only last week, the 2015 precedent would be a useful one to follow?
Viscount Younger of Leckie
Yes, indeed. I can reassure my noble friend that, as well as the joint board, there is an implementation group. These review meetings are particularly important because they include the Northern Ireland Executive party leaders. There will be quarterly meetings and an implementation programme and timetable will be agreed. The UK and Irish Governments will be involved as appropriate, in accordance with the three-strand approach.