Northern Ireland: Industrial Action

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord for his many questions. In respect of the cost of living, I remind him that this Government have delivered on their pledge to halve inflation, and from the beginning of this year have cut taxes to ease pressures on household incomes.

The noble Lord will be aware that the Government do not have the powers directly to negotiate public sector pay in Northern Ireland. This is a devolved matter for a Northern Ireland Executive. The package to which I referred a few moments ago remains on the table for an incoming Executive. Of the £3.3 billion, somewhere in the region of £580 million is earmarked for relieving pressures on the public sector. So far as the Windsor Framework is concerned, he will not be surprised to hear that I do not share his characterisation. I believe the Windsor Framework is the right basis for reforming the Executive and having the devolved institutions back up and running in Northern Ireland, delivering for the entire community.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, the Minister knows Northern Ireland and Northern Ireland people very well, and he must know that Northern Ireland people are not going to be bullied and blackmailed. I am afraid the truth is that the Secretary of State—perhaps not just this one but previous Secretaries of State too—have pushed hard to use this as a weapon against the DUP. Even the trade unions know, despite their views differing on the DUP and whether the Assembly should be back, that this is not about that; it is about blackmailing and bullying. I am very disappointed. I know this is above his pay grade, but the Minister must know that what is happening to the trade unions and people in working positions in Northern Ireland is quite disgraceful. He and the Secretary of State are allowing the people of Northern Ireland to suffer for something that could be solved today.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. She will not be surprised to hear that I do not share her characterisation of the Government’s approach as one of bullying and blackmail. In fact, as I set out a moment ago, the funding package on the table is extremely generous and would allow an incoming Executive to deal with all these matters and help the transformation of public services. The imperative in Northern Ireland is to get the Executive back up and running and functioning.

Windsor Framework

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Tuesday 7th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Well, I appreciate very much the comments of the noble Baroness and the tone with which she expressed them. Of course, we all hugely desire the restoration of the political institutions at the earliest opportunity, not least as we approach the 25th anniversary of the Belfast agreement, which the party opposite negotiated in government. On the panel, that is of course a matter for the Democratic Unionist Party. The Government are committed to working with all parties to take this process forward. Where there is a need for official technical briefings, we are quite prepared to provide those and, as I say, we will work with all parties to take this forward.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, last week Maroš Šefčovič told his MEPs that the European Court still reigns supreme over Northern Ireland, despite what the British Prime Minister said. He also said that the framework was designed in a way to avoid hostile headlines in the British press, and that the Stormont brake is very much limited in scope and under very strict conditions. Does the Minister accept that the truth about the framework agreement is now out, and it shows that the Prime Minister has hugely oversold it as a triumph, when in fact it is a small tinkering with the methods of delivering the very same protocol that has done so much damage to Northern Ireland?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I thank the noble Baroness. I am afraid that I have to disagree rather fundamentally with her characterisation of the agreement negotiated by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and others, which I regard as a very considerable improvement in all respects on the existing protocol. In respect of a number of issues that she raised, the Windsor Framework will allow for the free flow of trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland, it will underpin Northern Ireland’s position within our United Kingdom, and the Stormont brake will give the United Kingdom Government a sovereign veto over new legislation within the scope of the protocol.

Northern Ireland Troubles (Legacy and Reconciliation) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister. Given what he has just said, is he saying quite clearly that he will not suggest putting it into the Bill? Given that we saw what happened to Kenova, does he share my concern that people feel slightly worried that what is said in this House and what Ministers think sometimes gets changed later if it is not in legislation?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

At this stage, I am not inclined to write a list of people who are disqualified from membership of the commission into the legislation. From reading the Bill, it is fairly clear that there is no disqualification, as I have set out. I would therefore probably argue that, while I agree entirely with its intentions, the amendment is not necessary as a matter of law. That would be my instinctive response.

On Amendments 35 and 41, the commissioner for investigations will have to be a person of significant standing and experience and will be responsible for the appropriate delegation of responsibilities to ensure that the commission can carry out effective investigations. The Bill is already clear that a person can be given the powers and privileges of a constable only if they are deemed capable of effectively exercising those powers and have received adequate training. In addition, Clause 3 makes it clear that the commission must ensure that, as far as is practicable, its officers include persons who have experience of conducting criminal investigations. Paragraph 4 of Schedule 2 also allows a designation under Clause 6 to be made, subject to any limitations specified in the designation. Paragraph 5 allows a designation to be time-limited.

Regarding the amendments and comments around timetabling, the commission’s processes will of course be complex. This is a significant undertaking, and it is our view that the commission’s delivery should be timely and not rushed. We have already taken a number of steps by establishing an implementation programme team within the Northern Ireland Office, whose job is, I stress, not to pre-empt the operations of the commission but to lay the foundations, looking at the estate, IT, procurement, and so on, should Parliament agree to establish the commission, so that it can begin its work as quickly as possible.

I hear what the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Basildon, said about commencement. I might be in a position to say a bit more about that at the next stage of the Bill. I will talk to her about it before we return to the Floor of the House, if that is acceptable to her.

On which note, I urge noble Lords to withdraw their amendments and—suffering from a hard day’s work turning into a hard day’s night—I also beg leave to withdraw my own.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Committee stage
Wednesday 22nd June 2022 Grand Committee

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the Minister for that explanation. Can he just tell the Committee why the Northern Ireland Office paid out a substantial sum of money to an individual who was offended by there being a picture of Her Majesty the Queen in the Northern Ireland Office?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

I am very familiar with that case, because I was an adviser in the Northern Ireland Office at the time. It was the subject of legal proceedings and, if the noble Baroness will bear with me, I do not really want to reopen what was settled in court. The matter was subject to a court case, and she is well aware of the outcome.

My noble friend Lord Empey and the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, talked about the status of Northern Ireland. I can give an assurance that I have given many times before: the Belfast agreement is extremely clear, in the section dealing with constitutional principles, and it does not establish Northern Ireland as a hybrid state or a condominium. It is an integral part of the United Kingdom on the basis of consent. However, the Belfast agreement does contain—as those noble Lords present who helped to negotiate it will attest—important commitments around parity of esteem, which were a central part of the agreement in 1998.

But, as has been stated many times, the regulations relating to the flying of the union flag reflect, and are consistent with, Northern Ireland’s position within the United Kingdom—a position which, I assure noble Lords present, this Conservative and Unionist Government fully support.

Identity and Language (Northern Ireland) Bill [HL]

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

2nd reading
Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, it is a great pleasure to respond to this debate, and I thank all those who have taken the time to participate this afternoon. If I may, I particularly welcome the tone and approach just shown by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, who was a very distinguished Secretary of State for Northern Ireland, as I have said before. I agree with many of his wise words, particularly around the Belfast agreement and the need to restore the political institutions, so I thank him very much for his contribution. I cannot match the level of knowledge of the Welsh language he displayed, the knowledge of Scots displayed by the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, or indeed the knowledge of Norwegian set out by my noble friend Lord Moylan. As a native of the West Riding of Yorkshire, it is sometimes said that we also have our own language or dialect occasionally, which I will not detain the House with.

A common thread among a number of comments, including from the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, was the need to take the sting out of this issue. As I said in my opening remarks, I experienced the three years in which it poisoned and paralysed politics in Northern Ireland and prevented the effective functioning of the devolved institutions. One of the aims of the Bill, frankly, is to deal comprehensively with language and identity issues in a way that allows the sting to be taken out of them, allows them to be depoliticised, and prevents them paralysing politics in the way that they have previously.

The Bill takes forward a number of commitments in New Decade, New Approach and sets up a framework through which the Executive can themselves deliver the offices and the two commissioners. These commitments were clearly made for the Executive to deliver. I think it was the noble Lord, Lord Hay, who referred to funding; we are very clear that, consistent with undertakings at the time of New Decade, New Approach, this would be for the devolved Administration to take forward. They would set the funding from the very generous block grant. I remind the House that the spending review settlement from last autumn was the largest since devolution was restored in 1998-99.

It is also worth remembering, as I said at the outset, that the Bill did not suddenly appear out of nowhere. It is very firmly based on the New Decade, New Approach document, which I again remind noble Lords formed the basis of the re-establishment of devolved government in January 2020. That document was based on three years of detailed discussions and negotiations, and the Bill reflects that status. We plan to pass the legislation through Westminster for the reasons I outlined in my opening speech, but it is of course open for the Northern Ireland Assembly to take it forward, to add to it and to take it in different directions on a future occasion.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Suttie and Lady Harris of Richmond, referred to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages. They claimed that the Bill falls short of some of the commitments in that charter. This is the New Decade, New Approach agreement, at Annex E, being faithfully implemented. The Government support and celebrate linguistic diversity—no question of that—which is why we signed and ratified the European charter in 2001. The Bill represents a significant step forward regarding provision for Ulster Scots and the Irish language, but as I said, if the Executive wish to take things forward on a future occasion, they can.

Given some of the comments raised during debate, it is important to put on record some of the things that the Bill does not do. As I think I made clear, it does not deviate from the carefully balanced position in New Decade, New Approach, nor, I contend, favour one side of the community over the other. I strongly push back on the comments of the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, that the Bill represents a stand-alone Irish language Act. It certainly does not. The Bill contains provisions for all parts of the community and a clear reading of it makes that apparent. It does not alter, diminish or adversely affect the status of English as the de facto language of Northern Ireland. It does not result in one language, culture or identity being elevated above or treated more favourably than any other. It does not, for example, create quotas for Ulster Scots or Irish speakers in public service roles.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

Yet.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The noble Baroness says “Yet” from a sedentary position. The Bill, with its safeguards, makes it clear that any best practice and any schemes would have to be approved by the First and Deputy First Ministers acting jointly, one of whom, I assume, would be a unionist. That is an important safeguard.

The legislation does not make the teaching of the Irish language or Ulster Scots compulsory in schools, and it does not impose mandatory bilingual road or street signs, which will remain a matter for local councils to decide. The noble Baroness raised a number of what I can only describe as scares about the potential expansion of the Bill’s provisions, but that could come about only with the agreement of the First and Deputy First Ministers, one of whom, as I said, will, I imagine, always be a unionist.

Turning to a number of the other points, I will try to be as brief as possible. A number of noble Lords, including the noble Baroness, Lady Goudie, I think, talked about the appointments process. The public appointments process will be for the First and Deputy First Ministers and the Executive to decide; obviously there are well-established procedures in Northern Ireland for public appointments, which will have to be adhered to. We hope that once the legislation is passed, the appointments can take place as swiftly as possible, in a timely manner. However, if that is not the case, there are of course the concurrent powers for the Secretary of State to step in. A number of groups raised with me last week why there is not some time limit by which the Secretary of State is obliged to step in. I think the Government’s view is that the Secretary of State ought to retain the discretion to decide when and how to intervene, depending on the circumstances at the time.

The number of bodies to which the legislation applies is set out in the Public Services Ombudsman Act (Northern Ireland) 2016 but, again, it would be open to the First and Deputy First Ministers to add or subtract to those bodies through legislation in the Assembly.

The noble Baroness, Lady Suttie, talked about ministerial approval of Irish language standards, which I have slightly touched on already. It is a faithful implementation of New Decade, New Approach; for the sake of complete accuracy, I draw her attention to paragraph 5.8.1 of Annexe E. I have dealt with her point about the European charter.

The noble Baronesses, Lady Suttie and Lady Harris of Richmond, talked about engagement with Ulster Scots. As I mentioned in my opening speech, and as the noble Baroness kindly acknowledged, I met the Ulster-Scots Agency in Belfast last week and it was broadly supportive of the Bill’s provisions. Of course, the Government have, over a pretty lengthy period, been engaging with a large number of groups that have an interest in this legislation.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne of Belmont, talked about an imbalance in the implementation of New Decade, New Approach, as did a number of noble Lords from the Democratic Unionist Party. I just gently point out that, in addition to this legislation, the Government passed the Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Act fairly recently, at the heart of which was providing for greater resilience in the institutions of the Belfast agreement—a key demand of the Democratic Unionist Party going into the discussions after the institutions were pulled down in 2017. Very quickly we appointed a veterans commissioner and an office for veterans, and we have provided £3 million for events to celebrate and mark the centenary of Northern Ireland. There are things that the Government have done over the past two years in implementing New Decade, New Approach which have benefited all parts of the community. However, of course I accept that there is more to do.

That leads me on to the Northern Ireland protocol, raised by a number of noble Lords. The Government’s position on this has been pretty well set out by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. The Government recognise very serious defects in the implementation and construction of the protocol. As I have said in this House on a number of occasions, it has diverted trade, increased burdens on business, disadvantaged consumers and led to political instability in Northern Ireland—witness the lack of a functioning Executive since February. The Government are committed to resolving those problems and, if I may put it like this, I do not think noble Lords will have to wait too much longer to find out what the Government propose to do in this respect.

My noble friend Lord Moylan mentioned road signs in the Republic of Ireland. As I have just made clear, there are no provisions in this legislation that would deal with road signs or change the existing position in Northern Ireland.

My noble friend Lord Moylan, the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and other noble Lords talked about our commitment to the Belfast agreement. I have been a supporter of the Belfast agreement since 10 April 1998, when it was signed. Again, I pay tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, for his key role in bringing about that agreement. But if there are no institutions functioning in Northern Ireland—no Assembly and no Executive—strands 2 and 3 do not work and the agreement begins to look incredibly thin. For that reason, the Government took action and spent three years trying to reach an agreement to get the institutions back up and running.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

During the three years when Sinn Féin brought down the Assembly, how many pieces of legislation did Her Majesty’s Government put through?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

We put through a number of pieces of legislation— for example, the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act, which, if the noble Baroness recalls, gave civil servants greater powers to spend money and keep government in Northern Ireland functioning. That is just one example.

As I was saying, the commitment of this Government to the Belfast agreement remains unwavering. It is because of that commitment that we have had to intervene on occasion. I take the point from around the House that it is unfortunate when this has to happen, but the situation in Northern Ireland is not akin to that in Scotland or Wales. At times, it has been necessary for the Government to take reserved powers or, in this case, concurrent powers to ensure that the institutions stay up and running.

I have sought to deal with a number of points and am sure I have missed some. I will go through Hansard and, where I have missed anything, endeavour to write to noble Lords.

The Future of the Northern Ireland Assembly

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My noble friend—my Whip—makes a very important point. The commitment set out in the Northern Ireland (Executive Formation etc) Act 2019 is that the commission services in Northern Ireland should be compliant with the Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination against Women. The framework that we set out in, I believe, 2021, to give effect to that will be CEDAW-compliant and deal with the issues raised by my noble friend.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, it might be worth pointing out to your Lordships’ House that the reality is that there will be very little chance of an Executive being formed after the May election unless the protocol has gone. Following on from the question of the noble Lord, Lord Moylan, everything that is disagreed about in the Assembly comes to this House, so what is the point of having an Assembly in Northern Ireland?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

In preparing for this question, I would never have anticipated in a million years that the noble Baroness would have raised the protocol. She is aware of the Government’s position on the protocol; as the Secretary of State said to the Northern Ireland Affairs Committee last week, it is not sustainable in its present form, requiring very drastic and radical change, and the Government are working with the EU to try to bring that about. In the absence of agreement, she is aware that we will take whatever action is required to remedy the situation. Regarding interventions in devolved areas, I remind the noble Baroness that she was a member of a government who in 2000 intervened directly in a devolved matter: the Northern Ireland Executive could not agree on the flying of flags from public buildings, and the Labour Government legislated here.

Northern Ireland

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Monday 7th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Caine (Con)]

Yes, my Lords, it is. I know from my experience of having engaged with Irish America over the years—very intensively, I should add—of the importance of American voices in helping to promote and maintain political stability within Northern Ireland. The Secretary of State has a number of very important meetings with US government officials and Congressmen, who I believe can be very influential in these matters.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

My Lords, many of us in your Lordships’ House have been warning for some time of the fundamental incompatibility between the protocol, the institutions and the Belfast agreement. Will the Minister make it clear to our Foreign Secretary—who, I think, is trying her very best in very difficult circumstances—that this incompatibility can be dealt with, and we can get the institutions back up and running in Northern Ireland, only when the protocol goes?

[Lord Caine (Con)]

The noble Baroness again takes us into the territory of the court case in which she is involved regarding compatibility with the Belfast agreement, on which the Government have defended their position in court. As I hope I have stressed from the Dispatch Box over the past few minutes, the Government remain deeply committed to remedying the defects which are apparent in both the construction and implementation of the Northern Ireland protocol—absolutely.

Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill

Debate between Lord Caine and Baroness Hoey

Committee stage
Monday 13th December 2021 Grand Committee

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for her manuscript amendments. Obviously, she referred to a number of arguments that are currently being considered by the courts and on which I have no intention of commenting today. As my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn generously pointed out, this amendment only came in this afternoon, so I hope noble Lords will forgive me that I have not had the opportunity to study it in detail or discuss it more broadly within the department.

The protocol came up extensively at Second Reading and, on that occasion, I set out the Government’s position on this issue. It is clear that in the construction and implementation of the protocol we have seen a diversion of trade, burdens on business, an impact on consumers and how it has affected confidence in the Belfast agreement and its institutions throughout the community. The irony is not lost that a protocol that was designed primarily to support and uphold the 1998 agreement now risks undermining it.

As I also pointed out at Second Reading, my noble friend Lord Frost is currently engaged in intensive negotiations with the European Commission on a number of the problems I have referred to arising from the protocol. As he has made clear to the House on a number of occasions, while progress has been made there still remain substantial gaps. The Government’s hope and intention is that these differences can be resolved through agreement; that is our clear preference. If that is not possible, then we will take whatever steps we feel are necessary to safeguard not just the interests of Northern Ireland but the United Kingdom as a whole, because the protocol impacts the whole of the UK and not just one part of it.

I assure both the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, and my noble friend Lord Dodds of Duncairn that the Government are firmly of the view that any solution to the issues arising from the protocol can be lasting only if it has democratic support from across the community in Northern Ireland, ensuring a balanced settlement which is sustainable in the long term. As my noble friend has made clear, the current arrangements are not sustainable, and he is trying to address that issue.

Beyond that, I am not in a position to say a great deal more. At the risk of repetition, this Bill is primarily about implementing New Decade, New Approach, which was instrumental in securing the re-establishment of the devolved institutions after the hugely frustrating period from 2017 to 2020. I respectfully suggest to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, that we should press on with passing this Bill, allow my noble friend Lord Frost to press on with his negotiations and secure the right outcome for Northern Ireland. In the meantime, I urge her to withdraw the amendment.

[Baroness Hoey (Non-Afl)]

I thank the noble Lords, Lord Dodds, Lord Trimble and Lord Morrow. All noble Lords here should be concerned about the seriousness of the situation in Northern Ireland; it will not get better if the protocol stays. As we have said many times, in the end the Government have to choose between the Belfast agreement and the protocol. Of course, the Belfast agreement is now being fractured—I think that is the word. I thank all noble Lords who have spoken. I am assuming, perhaps wrongly, that those who did not speak are in agreement or have been thinking so carefully about it all that they will come back on Report. I thank the Minister because the amendment was tabled this morning and I appreciate that he may not have seen it until later in the day. Obviously Members need to look at it, study it and think about it.

Normal dealings in Northern Ireland are not going to continue unless this is sorted. We can no longer ignore it. It is not going to go away. We are wasting our time with the New Decade, New Approach if this is not sorted. Things will get very difficult indeed. In view of what the Minister has said, I hope that he will go away and perhaps discuss the amendment with the noble Lord, Lord Frost, and other members of the Government, including the Prime Minister, and that by the time we get to Report we may have a different view and a different outcome in terms of what can be put on the Order Paper. I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.