Official Controls (Amendment) Regulations 2024

Lord Caine Excerpts

Wednesday 29th January 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Suttie (LD)]

My Lords, as ever, I thank the Minister, as did the noble Lord, Lord McCrea, for her detailed explanation of these regulations, as well as for her tireless work in trying to find solutions to this complex set of issues.

As is now customary in these debates, there are really two debates going on simultaneously. The first is on the details of the regulations before us, and the second is on the highly complex constitutional and worrying things that noble Lords opposite have been mentioning this evening. The noble Lord, Lord Frost, used the word “unsatisfactory”. It is true that the second area of concern is about the difficult relations between the EU, Great Britain and Northern Ireland following Brexit. As the noble Lord, Lord Bew, said, it is a messy compromise; that is the situation we find ourselves in. The noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, is right—as usual—in thinking that I am saying what I believe to be the solution to this, which is not the same as what she believes to be the solution to this problem.

We support these regulations; we think they are necessary as a stopgap before a full-blown SPS veterinary agreement is put in place. I repeat what I have said in previous debates, that I hope the new Northern Ireland Committee of this House will provide a useful mechanism for carrying out the much-needed greater scrutiny of many of these issues, as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said. He is quite right: there needs to be greater scrutiny of these regulations, and it is important that from time to time, we debate them in this Chamber, but I hope that your Lordships’ new Northern Ireland Committee will be able to look at these issues in great detail and perhaps carry out detailed inquiries, specifically on some of these issues regarding food and plant biosecurity.

Since we last had one of these debates, it is welcome that the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, has been appointed as independent reviewer of the Windsor Framework. As the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, said, he will bring a great deal of experience and wisdom to that role. It is also welcome, at least on these Benches, that the Government have not ruled out joining the pan-European customs union, which we believe will be greatly welcome as a first sensible step towards improving and deepening our relationship with the EU, as well as strengthening the economy. Obviously, the Minister is not the Minister for these issues, but I would like her to confirm that joining such a pan-European customs area would significantly reduce the bureaucratic burden for businesses, including many of those affected by these particular regulations.

Turning to the regulations themselves, I ask the Minister—as did the noble Baroness, Lady Ritchie—for an update on progress regarding the new SPS veterinary agreement. Is the Minister able to give some more information and detail on progress on that agreement and how long does she now think it will be until we are able to reach an agreement? Does she think there is any risk to animals and of animal-related disease during the period before such an agreement is reached? I believe that the veterinary SPS agreement was a Labour Party manifesto commitment, so I am absolutely sure that the Government are keen to make progress on this sooner rather than later.

In the Explanatory Memorandum attached to these regulations, paragraph 5.22 refers to

“debt recovery and collection costs for unpaid fees”.

Is the Minister able to tell us the total cost of unpaid fees and the average fee charge for the service provided? Is it the case that the non-payment of fees is endemic, or is it just a small proportion of the overall costs involved?

Finally, the Minister will remember that, at the time the previous Government were introducing border control posts, which, as other noble Lords mentioned, were not at the point of entry to the country but some miles away, there was genuine concern about the likelihood of some goods deliberately avoiding control posts, which could result in goods entering the country without the necessary sanitary and phytosanitary checks. The Minister touched on this a little in her introduction, but can she give further reassurances that there is no such likelihood of this happening either now or in the future?

Generally, from these Benches we support this SI as the next stage in a process which is already in train and which has so far been working fairly effectively, but we sincerely hope that an SPS veterinary agreement can be finalised soon.

[Lord Caine (Con)]

My Lords, I too am very grateful to the Minister for setting out the main provisions of the instrument before us this evening, and to the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for bringing the debate to the Chamber this evening. I also thank all other noble Lords for contributing to a debate which has, somewhat unsurprisingly, covered much familiar territory regarding the position of Northern Ireland following the United Kingdom’s decision to depart from the European Union.

As the noble Lord, Lord Dodds of Duncairn, made clear in his contribution, the statutory instrument before your Lordships this evening is very technical. If noble Lords will forgive me, given the lateness of the hour, I will not follow noble Lords into those weeds, if I can put it like that. Rather, I will turn briefly to the regret amendment in the name of the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, whose criticisms, along with those of other noble Lords, I fully appreciate apply as much to the Government in which I and my noble friend Lord Frost served at various junctures as they do to the current Administration.

I do not intend to engage in a detailed defence of all that we did in government, but I hope that the noble Baroness and others who have spoken will accept that I genuinely respect the views that they have put forward this evening. I know they are deeply and sincerely held and reflect the views of a great number of people in Northern Ireland itself. It is therefore important that both the Government and the Opposition continue to listen to those concerns and, wherever possible, seek to address them. If that is the approach to be taken by the Government, they will certainly have our backing in doing so.

As a Minister, I was very clear that the Windsor Framework and the Command Paper Safeguarding the Union, which was published a year ago this Friday, represented considerable improvements on the original flawed protocol, and indeed the 2017 joint report, which, I am afraid to say, is the root of so many of the problems that we have faced, as the noble Lord, Lord Bew, has consistently pointed out. I also spoke on this before I became a Minister, when I was a member of the same committee as the noble Lord, Lord Dodds. It was very flawed.

As the House knows, I spent a great deal of time from the other side of the Dispatch Box implementing many of the provisions of the framework and the Command Paper, which in my view aimed to strengthen and future-proof Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom and to protect the integrity of the UK internal market for the long term. But I never for one moment suggested that the framework or the Command Paper were in any way perfect, or necessarily the last word. Indeed, I remember that, when I took the Stormont brake regulations through your Lordships’ House, in my closing section I had a sentence in which I said that the framework was not the perfect agreement. It will not surprise some noble Lords to learn that my officials wanted me to strike out that sentence, and I had to reinsert it when I got to my feet in the House. So, I have never thought that the provisions that we brought forward in government were beyond any improvement.

It was and remains my view that, where there is evidence of disadvantage to Northern Ireland as a result of current arrangements, any Government have a duty to listen and to act, using the provisions and bodies that are in place to resolve problems, or indeed to bring forward proposals for more substantive change. We have heard this evening a number of suggestions from noble Lords across the House and the Opposition, under new leadership and new management, will look with an open mind at practical and workable solutions that are put forward to us. Of course, we also look forward to the conclusions of, and hope to participate in, the review being carried out by the noble Lord, Lord Murphy of Torfaen, along, in due course, with the Government’s response.

We should at all times in this House be guided by what is in the interests of the United Kingdom as a whole, and that must include an enduring commitment to delivering the best outcomes for our fellow citizens in Northern Ireland. I look forward to the noble Baroness’s reply.

[Baroness Hayman of Ullock (Lab)]

My Lords, I start by saying that I am very grateful to all noble Lords who have taken an interest in this instrument and for all contributions. I also thank the noble Baroness, Lady Hoey, for bringing her regret amendment before the House and enabling us to debate it in some detail. I am pleased to hear and welcome that she at least applauds the mechanisms contained in the regulations.

There have been many thoughtful and constructive points raised, and I think this reflects the importance with which noble Lords take our biosecurity. We have to maintain our biosecurity, but at the same time deliver the streamlined approach for imports that is needed to minimise friction at the border and at the same time protect our animal, plant and public health.

As I mentioned in my introduction, the instrument delivers measures to provide a long-term basis for the border target operating model beyond reliance on the temporary measures. It allows for border controls to be updated in response to risk and delivers powers to allow for certain policies to reduce burdens that will need to be delivered in the future.

I will, however, do my best to respond to the points that noble Lords have raised during this debate. First, I repeat, as I have done in previous debates, that I take very seriously the concerns raised by noble Lords regarding certain legislation that has been implemented following Brexit. I think we would all agree that such legislation is not exactly perfect. On that note, I very much welcome the noble Lord, Lord Murphy, who will be carrying out the independent review into post-Brexit trading arrangements with Northern Ireland. This has been welcomed by other noble Lords, including the noble Lord, Lord Dodds, and the noble Baroness, Lady Suttie. As the noble Baroness also said, we have a new Northern Ireland committee. That is a really important step because, we hope, it will have the opportunity to look in more detail at some of the wider concerns that are regularly being raised by noble Lords.

A number of comments were made and questions asked around whether members of the public in Northern Ireland will be left unprotected because the SPS controls apply just to goods entering GB. I reiterate at this point, as the Minister with responsibility for biosecurity, that it is a real responsibility. I take it very, very seriously, and I reassure noble Lords that, whatever current legislation means that I can or cannot do, biosecurity is right at the top of my list to protect this country. If we do not, the implications are just too appalling.

We are utterly committed as part of that to protect the biosecurity of the island of Ireland, which is and remains a long-standing single epidemiological unit. Northern Ireland continues to be protected under the biosecurity regime of the EU, in line with the Windsor Framework. Under this regime, Northern Ireland implements official controls and additional protections in response to risks, such as measures related to pest-free areas, traceability and additional notification requirements for the highest-risk goods to maintain the biosecurity of the island of Ireland. Again, I stress that I and the department, Defra, work extremely closely with DAERA; I am in regular contact with the Minister and senior officials there. We must have a robust biosecurity regime, we have to have high standards and those high standards must be for now and protected into the future.