Covert Human Intelligence Sources (Criminal Conduct) Bill

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Committee stage & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard) & Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 24th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[The Deputy Chairman of Committees (Baroness Fookes) (Con)]

My Lords, I understand that the noble Baroness, Lady Wheatcroft, has withdrawn, so I call the noble Lord, Lord Butler of Brockwell.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB) [V]]

My Lords, I have put my name to the amendment from my noble friend Lord Anderson. Over the years of my career in government, I was involved in successive pieces of legislation governing intrusion by state institutions. They were necessitated by the European Convention on Human Rights judgments of the European Court, as well as by the growing availability of technology making such intrusion possible. It is many, many years since it could be said that the intelligence agencies could bug and burgle their way around London without let or hindrance.

This Bill deals with a specific form of intrusion—namely, infiltration into groups or activities for the purposes of gathering intelligence. That gives rise to profoundly difficult issues. The noble Lord, Lord Hain, has spoken powerfully on this issue and illustrated how things can go grievously wrong, but despite having been the victim of surveillance himself, he none the less acknowledges that such surveillance is often necessary.

Further Developments in Discussions with the European Union under Article 50 of the Treaty on European Union

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Monday 11th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Dobbs (Con)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure to follow the noble Lord, Lord Kerr of Kinlochard. If only he were just as willing to follow me on one or two of the issues that we discuss, but we always do so in a spirit of dignity and good humour. Long may that be the case when it is so often lacking in these discussions.

Over the weekend, I went to see the Magna Carta in Salisbury. It is one single, magnificent sheet of parchment—not 611 pages, just one—and it got me wondering precisely what our rather dusty barons of Runnymede were about. I suppose at the heart it was the question of who owns Britain. In the eight centuries since Magna Carta the answer has moved steadily, if not always inexorably, in one direction: the people. It is the people who are the ultimate source of our power and authority—except that recently, the people started discovering that they were losing their power. There were things that they could not change, not even through an election. They no longer owned this country. We pretended otherwise, of course. We even gave the people a referendum and promised that they would decide but that was not strictly honest, was it? The noble Lord, Lord Sherbourne, who is sadly not in his seat any more, described that to us so eloquently just a few minutes ago. And so we have created this momentous mess.

For the moment, I would like to focus my remarks on our relations with Ireland and make three points. First, perhaps I am a little naive but I do not actually understand what is meant by a hard border. I know it is absolutely central to everything—the backstop and the whole of Brexit—but what is a hard border? Is it a line on a map or a white line on the road? Is it CCTV cameras or barbed wire? We have spent so long talking about it that there must, I am sure, be a definition. I would be grateful if my noble and learned friend would take pity on my naivety and give us a precise definition of what the Government think a hard border is. I am in a state of heightened expectation.

Secondly, can I be allowed to express my astonishment that no one in this Government seems to have made it their passion to tell the people of Ireland that we understand their concerns—that we embrace them and will not let them down—and that whatever is decided in Brussels it will not be the British who build border posts? The Irish have a special place in our past and in our future. For me, Ireland is more than a friend and neighbour; it is practically family. We have all fought so hard, suffered so long and endured so much to bring our relations out of the pit of despair. So why are not we doing more? It is never too late.

My third point is this. The United Kingdom and Ireland have made so much progress in the last 20 years, yet Brussels seems to be trying to wrench our two nations apart again and to turn fraternity into rivalry by imposing a deal that threatens to divide the United Kingdom itself. Do your Lordships remember how ferociously angry the Germans got when someone suggested that the unification of their country might be a bad idea? That is nothing compared to the fury that would erupt in Germany if they were told that it had to be divided once again. Yet division is precisely what the EU is now advocating for the United Kingdom. Monsieur Barnier was reported in the French current affairs magazine Le Point as saying in 2016:

“I’ll have done my job if, in the end, the deal is so tough on the British that they’d prefer to stay in the EU”.


To me, that sounds like punishment and the imposition of penalties, and it has been a consistent theme of EU policy these past two years.

I have never known a time like this. We have a flat-pack Cabinet that threatens to collapse every time you switch the telly on. I have never known a House of Commons like this: there are MPs who treat the future of this country like feudal lords, the sort we kicked out of this House generations ago; who treat their manifesto promises like discarded Christmas wrapping paper; who walk out of the prison gates and straight back into the House of Commons to vote on the laws that we are going to live under. It is extraordinary. How on earth did we get here?

Nobody in their right mind ever pretended that Brexit would be without its challenges, so I go back to the question posed by our dusty barons of Runnymede. Who is in charge here? Well, perhaps we will find out tomorrow. If it all goes screwy again, however, sources are suggesting that the Prime Minister might resign. That would of course be a personal tragedy.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord. I think the barons at Runnymede would have been surprised by the suggestion that the people were in charge of the country. They would have thought that they were.

[Lord Dobbs]

I am grateful for that point. The barons of Runnymede insisted that we live under the rule of law, which is what we are talking about here, right now. The barons of Runnymede said that there must be change and, over 800 years, there has been a huge amount of change. It has taken a few beheadings of noble Lords, I would submit, but we have got where we are and been admired for the parliamentary democracy that we have built in this country—until now.

I return to the point that the Prime Minister’s future seems in jeopardy and, if she were to resign, it would be a personal tragedy. She has worked so hard but, in the circumstances, perhaps it would be constitutionally understandable. I wonder what a new Prime Minister’s first words from the steps of Downing Street might be; not “Brexit means Brexit”, surely. That one has been a bit overdone. But perhaps he or she might start the long process of restoring people’s trust by turning to them and saying that this is your country, your future; it was your choice. I hope, on their behalf, that we can still find the wisdom to get on and deliver the Brexit they voted for.

Brexit: Legal Position of Withdrawal Agreement

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Monday 3rd December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I thank my noble friend for his observations and entirely concur. I emphasise a point he touched on: we are engaged in continuing negotiations with the European Union to determine our future relationship. It would not be appropriate for us to disclose matters that would impact on the conduct of the negotiations, any more than we might expect the European Union to disclose to us the confidential legal advice that it may or may not have received in conducting those negotiations.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, in the giving of advice in any letter or papers that the Attorney-General submits to the Cabinet, does not good government require complete candour not only on the strengths but on the vulnerabilities of the Government’s position? It would be impossible for the Attorney-General to write with such candour if he were aware that his advice would be published.

[Lord Keen of Elie]

I am obliged to the noble Lord, who draws on a great deal of experience where these matters are concerned. I entirely agree with his observation: it would render the law officers’ position almost impossible when advising government fully, candidly and without reservation, if it was felt that that advice was then to be put into the public domain—let alone put into the public domain when we were carrying on relevant negotiations such as those we are carrying on with the European Union.

Brexit: Negotiations

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Tuesday 20th November 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I hope that it will not be regarded as a kiss of death if I say a few words in defence of this agreement. I do not retreat from my belief that a better alternative is to stay within the EU and to give the decision to the British people—but, like the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I regard many of the criticisms of the deal as greatly overstated.

I take as my text the five objections advanced by the European Research Group, which we heard itemised by the noble Lord, Lord Forsyth. The first is that we,

“would hand over £39 billion of taxpayers’ money with nothing guaranteed in return”.

This ignores the fact that the £39 billion represents the UK’s outstanding liabilities when we leave the EU. It has been accepted as money duly owed, whatever terms we leave on, and is a debt of honour.

The second criticism is that we would remain a rule-taker over large swathes of UK law in such areas as social, environmental and employment policy. I agree that it would be better if we remained a member of the EU and had a hand in making these rules. But our acceptance of these rules, with which we largely agree, seems an acceptable price if it leads to negotiating frictionless trade with the EU.

Thirdly, the European Research Group claims that there would be no unilateral right of exit from a backstop to the customs union. We heard this from the noble Lords, Lord Howard, Lord King and Lord Lamont. But we have entered an international agreement designed to protect the absence of physical borders between Northern Ireland and the Republic. I would not expect us to have a unilateral right to abrogate the backstop. The departure agreement provides for an independent arbitration panel in the case of disagreement, and that seems reasonable.

The fourth attack is that the agreement creates internal borders between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom. This is the ground for the DUP’s opposition to the deal. The special provisions for Northern Ireland in the draft agreement are necessary to maintain frictionless movement of goods across the border, and there are already different regulations between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK as a consequence of devolution. If the DUP voted against the agreement on these grounds and the result was no deal, I have to say that it would be cutting off its nose to spite its face.

Finally, it is alleged that the European Court of Justice will continue to remain in control of EU laws that are directly effective in the UK. But the ECJ’s role will be time-limited, and for it to be the interpreter of EU law as it affects the UK, and for the UK courts to have to take account of its judgments, seems reasonable.

To represent the provisions of the agreement as making the UK a vassal state seems absurd. If what the critics are saying is that the agreement does not give all the advantages of alleged independence promised in the 2016 referendum, I say: join the club. There are many of us on the other side of the argument who knew from the beginning that it neither would nor could.

Civil Liability Bill [HL]

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Committee: 1st sitting (Hansard continued): House of Lords
Thursday 10th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharkey]

Talking about vulnerable road users, I was reading Tuesday’s edition of Insurance Times, and the opening sentence was:

“Justice minister Lord Keen makes the first concession on Civil Liability Bill ahead of it entering the committee stage in the House of Lords”.


It went on to say:

“Lord Keen sent a letter to peers this morning, and in it, he made his first real concession regarding the Bill”—


and it then went on to quote the Minister at some length.

I looked on the Bills in progress website and could not find any letter. I searched through my emails and could not find any letter; I searched through my junk mail and still could not find any letter from the Minister. I wonder whether he will simply tell me that I should not believe everything I read in Insurance Times, or whether there is some letter that he would like to draw our attention to.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I support this amendment. I, too, declare an interest as a regular cyclist and a member of the APPG on cycling. As has been made clear at all stages, the Government’s main aim in this Bill is to tackle what they perceive as the compensation culture, and in particular fraudulent and exaggerated whiplash claims. It should not be a by-product of that that vehicle road users, including cyclists, are penalised by measures designed for a completely different purpose.

Whiplash claims are brought by motor vehicle occupants, not by people riding bicycles or motorcycles or crossing the road. Nobody makes a fraudulent claim by throwing themselves off a bicycle or a motorbike or by jumping in front of a car. The point has been made to the MoJ that there is no evidence to suggest that fraudulent claims by vulnerable road users are an issue of concern—and, as far as I am aware, no evidence to the contrary has been provided by the Ministry of Justice.

Whiplash claims from cycle and motorcycle collisions are almost entirely unheard of. The mechanism of the typical injury sustained is, of course, different. People on bicycles tend to be injured by hitting hard surfaces—car bonnets or the road. They sustain fractures and injuries from those impacts. It is not at all likely that they would be making a fraudulent claim. Indeed, I think it is impossible to imagine that they would.

I support this amendment. I think that a Bill designed for whiplash claims should not accidentally spread its effect to vulnerable road users whose injuries are likely to be of a completely different nature.

[Lord McKenzie of Luton]

My Lords, we have Amendment 26 in this group. I thank my noble friend Lord Young for stepping in to the breach in place of the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, and for the other contributions that have been made.