Early Parliamentary General Election Bill

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Wednesday 30th October 2019 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Privy Seal (Baroness Evans of Bowes Park) (Con)]

My Lords, I am pleased to open the Second Reading debate. While this Government did not want an election, this Parliament has not been able to agree a way forward on the major political issue facing the country. The purpose of this Bill is to allow the public to have their say and to give the other place the mandate to resolve this deadlock.

Earlier this year, the other place voted three times on the withdrawal agreement negotiated by my right honourable friend Theresa May and, on each occasion, rejected it. Subsequent cross-party talks to seek a compromise also failed to agree a way forward. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister negotiated a new Brexit deal, which did win the support of a majority in the other place at Second Reading. However, MPs were unable to agree a timetable for the passage of the withdrawal Bill so, once again, this has meant that the other place has been unable to progress the required legislation.

I share the frustration of many around this House. We have sat and watched over the past few months while the House of Commons has repeatedly been unable to achieve consensus on a way forward. However, a December election has now been supported by the leadership of all major parties in the other place. This presents a chance to resolve the impasse that this country has endured for too long. The Government have tabled this short Bill to set 12 December as the date of the next general election. If it passes, this Parliament will dissolve 25 working days before the date of the poll. The Bill sets the date of the election in law and removes the discretion to set the polling day which otherwise exists under the early elections provisions in the Fixed-term Parliaments Act. The date of 12 December allows time for the Northern Ireland budget to pass before Dissolution, which is necessary so that the Northern Ireland Civil Service can access the funding it needs to deliver public services. The date also maintains the convention that general elections are held on a Thursday, which this country has followed since the early 1930s.

As noble Lords will be aware, only one amendment to the Bill was passed in the other place yesterday. The Government tabled an amendment to address the concern raised by the Scottish National Party, which was to ensure that the registration deadline for the election in Scotland was the same as that of the rest of the country. The effect of the amendment is to remove the St Andrew’s Day bank holiday from the calculation of time in relation to the deadline for registering to vote. It will instead be classed as a normal working day, but only for this election and only for limited purposes in relation to the electoral register. This will allow for a comprehensive UK-wide communications campaign by the Electoral Commission to advertise the deadline and ensure that all those in the UK who are eligible to register can do so within the same time period.

This Bill passed Third Reading in the other place by a majority of 418, and I think we can agree that the level of cross-party support for it there at this time was significant. Having an election will allow us all to put our case to the public, to give them the opportunity to decide how they want to move forward, and to ensure that the new Government have time to act before 31 January 2020.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, if the Bill is passed and the election takes place on that date, what is the earliest date on which Parliament can be reopened?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I may ask my noble friend to cover that point in his wind-up speech. I know that a number of conversations have been had, and I think that the Prime Minister has said something, but I do not want to put words in his mouth that are not accurate.

--- Later in debate ---

[Earl Howe (Con)]

My Lords, this has been a very constructive and focused debate, and I thank all noble Lords who have contributed to it. Unsurprisingly, we have heard a range of views expressed on all sides of the House about the Bill and the reasons why we find ourselves debating it, so I think that a helpful place for me to start is to return briefly to first base by re-emphasising the key points made earlier by my noble friend the Leader of the House.

Why do we believe that a general election is now necessary? The hung Parliament that we are in, complicated by the divergent views of elected Members across all parties on the most significant political and constitutional issue of our day, has created an impasse. It is an impasse that the Government are clear cannot be allowed to continue.

The withdrawal agreement negotiated by my right honourable friend Theresa May was rejected on three separate occasions earlier this year. The Prime Minister has successfully negotiated a new deal and the other place passed the revised withdrawal agreement Bill at Second Reading. However, by also voting down the Government’s programme Motion, they prevented the progress of that Bill and, hence, this country’s departure from the European Union by 31 October. Then, despite the extension of the Article 50 deadline, conversations held in another place made it apparent to the Government that there could be no certainty, or anything approaching certainty, of the withdrawal agreement Bill receiving parliamentary approval through all its subsequent stages. Therefore, contrary to the contention made by the noble Baroness the Leader of the Opposition, it was not rejection of the programme Motion that brought about this Bill; it was the Government’s realisation that even the three-month extension to 31 January left the fate of the Bill wide open.

The noble Baroness, Lady Smith, said that she accepted that there should be a general election. I wish that she had done so with as much good grace as the noble Lord, Lord Newby. All the main political parties now agree that a general election is needed in order for the British people to have their say, and we earnestly hope to provide a new Parliament with a way forward. So this is a short and simple Bill, which sets the date of the election as 12 December. The general election timetable allows the Northern Ireland Budget Bill to pass before Dissolution, to ensure that the Northern Ireland Civil Service can access the funding it needs to deliver public services and proper governance in the Province.

The 12 December date is important for another reason: it is critical that we do not miss this opportunity to have an election, and a new Parliament sitting, before Christmas. An election on the following Thursday—19 December—would not allow time for the new Parliament to sit before the start of the new year. The noble Lord, Lord Butler, in his intervention, asked me for the earliest date on which Parliament could first sit following the poll. My right honourable friend the Prime Minister has stated that if our party were to win the election, he would aim for both Houses to reconvene before 23 December. However, the exact date cannot be set until after Dissolution, when the Sovereign issues a proclamation, so I regret that I cannot more specific.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

I am grateful to the noble Earl for that, but surely the Queen cannot reopen Parliament before Christmas, on 23 December. That would be an absurd time to have a reopening of Parliament. Surely the answer is that the Queen cannot reopen Parliament until 6 January. We would then have a Queen’s Speech debate, so proceedings on the Bill are unlikely to start before the week beginning 13 January. We will then be getting into just as difficult a position, in passing the Bill before 31 January, as we were previously.

[Earl Howe]

I cannot agree entirely with the noble Lord. The House will have followed his train of thought, but it is nevertheless possible for Parliament to convene before Christmas for swearing in and so forth to take place, and we can get that part of things done. As I have said, I am not in a position to speculate in advance of the Sovereign’s proclamation the exact timetable following that.

Special Adviser Appointments

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Wednesday 2nd October 2019 Lords Chamber

[Earl Howe]

My Lords, as I just said, my noble friend will understand that I cannot comment on personnel matters relating to individuals. I can say in general terms that, in line with the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, special advisers operate under the authority of their appointing Minister. Therefore, special advisers in No. 10 act under the authority of the Prime Minister. Section 8 of the 2010 Act also allows special advisers to exercise any power in relation to the management of another special adviser if permitted by the Code of Conduct for Special Advisers. The code of conduct does so permit.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, it is the right of civil servants, if dismissal is contemplated, to have access to a disciplinary board before a conclusion is reached. Is that available to special advisers, and was it available in this case?

[Earl Howe]

I cannot comment on this case, but the status of special advisers is set out in legislation in the 2010 Act to which I referred. Because of the Crown’s power to dismiss at will, special advisers are not entitled to a period of statutory notice when their appointment is terminated. However, the terms of their employment are set out in their model contract.

Business of the House

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Thursday 4th April 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes]

I fully hear what the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, says, but I have a right to be heard on the Motion that I have put on the Order Paper. A considerable amount of the time has been taken up by noble Lords moving closure Motions, which involves two Divisions every time.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that the procedural issues which the noble Baroness is now speaking about have already been decided twice by the House in earlier votes?

[Baroness Noakes]

No: they are on different amendments to the Motion so they are different issues.

European Council

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Monday 25th March 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The agreement of the UK Government and the European Union for this extension is now international law, which takes precedence. We have laid the SI to extend Article 50 in those two ways and, indeed, that now trumps domestic law.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, there is one point I would like to clarify. The noble Baroness and the Prime Minister referred to taking a decision on the agreement this week. My understanding was that we had until 12 April to take that decision. Is the reference to “this week” part of the European Council’s decision?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Yes, it is. Conclusions 9 and 10 from the European Council make it clear that approval of the deal this week will lead to the 22 May extension for the Bill. If there is no agreement on the deal this week, we have until 12 April. Under those circumstances, we either have to put another plan forward or we leave with no deal on 12 April. Therefore, there is a link between having a vote on the deal this week and the 22 May extension.

Leaving the European Union

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Tuesday 26th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I say again that we do not want no deal. The noble Baroness rightly pointed out the severe challenges that it will pose. That is why we are focusing so heavily on getting a deal, trying to address the issues the House of Commons has raised in relation to the backstop and looking more broadly at other issues that have concerned MPs, so that we can bring a package that MPs can support, get a deal, start discussions with the EU about our future relationship and look forward, rather than constantly going round in circles, which is what we have been doing for a while.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, the Minister said that any responsible Government would prepare for no deal. Is not the trouble that they have not?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

We have spent a lot of time preparing for no deal. We have done a lot of work. We have been in touch with business and have been setting up new systems. The fact of the matter is that there are real challenges, and not all no-deal planning is in our gift; it also relies on our European partners. We are doing what we can, but I have repeatedly said that that is not the route we want to go down. We want a deal, and that is what we are trying to achieve.

Leaving the European Union

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Tuesday 12th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

As both we and the EU have made clear, we do not intend to use the backstop. The Prime Minister, as I have said, is looking at three options in which the House of Commons has expressed an interest. These are alternative arrangements, such as technological solutions, a legally binding unilateral exit clause and a legally binding time limit. President Juncker and the Prime Minister had a conversation and have agreed that further talks will begin, and they will take stock later this month. We look forward to that having a successful outcome.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, is it not clear, despite what the noble Baroness has said, that it is quite impossible for Parliament to pass the primary and secondary legislation needed to have a comprehensive system of law if we leave the EU on 29 March? What is the Government’s proposal for dealing with that?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

I say again, we are making good progress. As of today 424 Sis have been laid; we are making good progress. Since we returned in January we have debated more than 50. We have passed numerous pieces of legislation, and, as I said, in the last fortnight alone we have considered three Brexit Bills. Of course, in tabling legislation in this House we discuss it with the usual channels to ensure that we can give this House time to scrutinise legislation as it wishes. We will continue to do that in a constructive manner.

Leaving the European Union

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Monday 21st January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

The noble Lord will be well aware that primary legislation would be needed to have a second referendum. He may remember that the previous Bill took seven months.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, is it not the case that if the Prime Minister is to get Parliament’s approval for this agreement she will have to show the same degree of flexibility as she expects of others? Is it not also the case that her own party in another place, while rejecting her deal, is denying her that flexibility? While that remains the case, are we not just wasting crucial time?

[Baroness Evans of Bowes Park]

Obviously, it was a large defeat last week and the Prime Minister has recognised that, which is why she has begun these conversations, along with other senior members of the Government and Cabinet. We want to find solutions that can command support across the House of Commons, so that we can leave the European Union with a deal that is good for both of us.

Privileges and Conduct Committee

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Monday 17th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Viscount Hailsham]

It is never irrelevant to assert the importance of natural justice and fairness, and that is what I am doing. I am deeply concerned by the comment in the further report, which states that,

“cross-examination may be inappropriate for dealing with complaints of sexual harassment”.

On page 19 of the further report, it is stated that future changes in procedure for the investigation of sexual misconduct will recommend improvements aimed at providing better support for the complainant rather than for the Member. I welcome the former commitment but not the latter. We must be careful not to compensate for perceived historic injustices by creating future traps for the innocent. I believe that the procedures now in place expose Members of this House against whom allegations are made to the risk of serious injustice. We must be willing to look at those procedures again, with a view to ensuring that the principles of fairness and natural justice are respected.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords—

[Lord Falconer of Thoroton (Lab)]

My Lords—

--- Later in debate ---

[Noble Lords]

Hear, hear!

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

My Lords, sensing the growing impatience of the House, I will speak very briefly indeed. I want to make just one point that I think illustrates the illogicality of the House’s procedures and the way in which they were pursued in this case.

In our debate on 15 November, the noble Lord the Senior Deputy Speaker said:

“The House deliberately delegated active investigation and assessment to an independent commissioner; it would be wholly wrong for the House to seek now to substitute the commissioner’s conclusions with its own”—[Official Report, 15/11/18; col. 2028.].


I intervened to ask what, in that case, was the point of the House being given the opportunity to debate the report at all—or, I might have said, Lord Lester’s right of appeal to the Conduct and Privileges Committee? If there is to be no questioning of the outcome of the commissioner’s report, what is the point of these further proceedings? If we are to be given an opportunity to debate, the fact that the commissioner conscientiously followed the procedures laid down by the House—and I believe she did—should not prevent noble Lords from expressing their misgivings about the outcome, and many have been expressed and felt in all parts of the House.

I must acknowledge that I have a partial view since I have known Lord Lester for the past 40 years and do not know Ms Sanghera. I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and the noble Baronesses, Lady Kennedy and Lady Hussein-Ece, that the moral is that it is impossible for Members of this House to be impartial when we are judging one of our own. We should agree on what we think are fair procedures and, as Dame Laura Cox has said, we should then make the process entirely independent of the House.

I applaud the movement which supports women in calling out bad behaviour by men. I want my granddaughters to be confident that such complaints will be taken seriously, but I also want my grandsons to know that they will be treated fairly and proportionately. We should not allow citizens of this country, of any gender or status in life, to be judged and punished without a rigorous and fair process. I put on record that I fear the House’s procedures, though well intentioned and conscientiously carried out, have not produced that result in this case.

--- Later in debate ---

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

Perhaps it was translated into an email as well, but I read it. In fact, I read it again in the Times of 13 December and I read the reply of the noble Baroness, Lady Jay, of 15 December. Then, this morning at 5.30 am, I read the reply of the noble Lord, Lord Thomas of Gresford. What does that indicate? It indicates that there is a lively debate. The point that the noble and learned Baroness is making, on procedure, is for the future, and she can be assured that it will be taken on board.

The noble Baroness, Lady Jones, asked about access rights for Lord Lester. That is a matter not for the Privileges and Conduct Committee but for the House of Lords Commission, which will meet on Wednesday.

The noble Lord, Lord Butler, asked about procedures. The role of the House is to satisfy itself that its own procedures are set down in the code and the guidance to be followed. Those procedures were established in 2009 in the Leader’s Group by the noble and right reverend Lord, Lord Eames. Since then, I believe that there have been seven revisions and, as has been mentioned, when there is a general election we have to sign up to that code. So since 2009 there have been 10 opportunities for people to comment on the procedures. Given the highlighting of the debate here, I urge Members to put their comments in, because the Privileges and Conduct Committee will be looking at the independent complaints and grievance procedure recommendations in the new year.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell]

Sorry to interrupt the noble Lord, but is it not the point of the Motion today to approve the report on Lord Lester? It is not about future procedure.

[The Senior Deputy Speaker]

There are two issues here. There is a point about future procedure and shall deal with that. Separately, there is the Motion to approve the P&C report today, which I hope people will agree to. Those two issues are very separate.

Brexit: Withdrawal Agreement and Political Declaration

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Wednesday 5th December 2018 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Smith of Basildon (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness the Leader of the House for opening a very important debate, and to the usual channels for facilitating what is effectively four days of debate across three days to ensure we have the opportunity to conclude our discussions prior to the vote in the other place.

Since the result of the referendum, as the noble Baroness referenced, this House has been constructive in examining the detail and implications of the UK’s departure from the EU. The clearest evidence of this is the many Select Committee reports on a range of subjects, such as trade and financial services, judicial and security co-operation, and Northern Ireland, which have brought enormous clarity to complex matters. When the Government were forced by the High Court to secure Parliament’s approval to trigger Article 50, your Lordships’ House passed just two amendments—on the position of EU nationals and the need for parliamentary debate—with a vote for MPs on the eventual deal. Although the Government opposed the amendments, they conceded the principle on both.

Our constructive approach has also been evident in later legislation. On the withdrawal Bill, some 160 hours of scrutiny led your Lordships’ House to pass an unprecedented 15 amendments for consideration by MPs. Despite the over-the-top protestations from some, this was clearly useful work. Our EU agencies amendment was accepted in full and others, including those on Northern Ireland and the meaningful vote, were accepted with some changes.

Your Lordships’ House, working across party lines to improve the legislation, secured almost 200 concessions, including crucial restrictions on delegated powers. We considered that there should be parliamentary oversight of the final arrangements, rather than our future relationship with the EU being approved with the stroke of a ministerial pen. This House agreed that we should debate the Prime Minister’s Brexit deal, but that the meaningful vote should be for the elected House. Any vote we have is an expression of our opinion as a second Chamber, and our debate over the coming days is in that context. It provides an opportunity for your Lordships’ House to continue to be constructive, analytical and forensic in consideration of the withdrawal agreement and the political declaration.

Following discussions and consultations, we have tabled a Motion in my name to provide an opportunity for your Lordships’ House to express its opinion on the outcome of the Prime Minister’s negotiations. I will speak to it now, but it will not be formally moved until the conclusion of our debate on Monday. I have just been informed that an amendment to my Motion has been tabled, although I have not had sight of it yet. I do not know what it says, but I hope that might become clearer in the next few days.

The aim of my amendment is to frame the next few days around three key issues that are at stake. First, as noted, it is for the elected House of Commons to determine this matter. When we debated the withdrawal Bill in this House, my noble friend Lord Monks tabled a successful amendment saying that the Prime Minister should obtain a mandate from Parliament for her deliberations with the EU. At that time the Government were adamant that Mrs May could not be constrained by Parliament, yet had she sought a parliamentary mandate then, even just for the basic principles, she might not be facing such an uphill and perhaps even impossible struggle. Yet as we heard from her last night, she has again conceded that principle. While it is exceptional, the Government are—probably as I speak—releasing their own legal advice, having been forced to do so by MPs. The House of Commons faces its most important Division for 75 years, so how could it have been against the national interest, as the Government then claimed, to provide MPs with vital legal information? I am pleased that, following last night’s vote, the Government have had to accept that they were wrong, but the Prime Minister just made her job harder.

Secondly, the Motion is clear that the option—or indeed the threat—of a no-deal exit is emphatically rejected. While some may fondly imagine that the only consequence of no deal is that we step back in time and pick up where we left off 45 years ago, the reality is so very different. The world outside has not been static, just waiting for us. To crash out of the EU without arrangements in place for co-operation on trade, agriculture and fisheries, crime and security, consumer and employment protections, energy and the environment would be grossly reckless and irresponsible. It would leave the country in the curious position of being outside the EU but having essentially to accept free movement, due to a lack of alternative immigration arrangements. It would leave our UK citizens in the EU without security in employment or in retirement. Initially, planes would be grounded and, regardless of the number of lorry parking spaces made available on our motorways, major ports would experience tailbacks and costly delays, with huge implications for the nation’s food security and exports. Our already overstretched police forces would no longer have access to EU databases but would be left to rely on patchy, outdated and cumbersome procedures for exchanging vital information on cross-border crime. The lack of certainty for businesses would have a hugely detrimental effect on our economy and investment. There are no circumstances in which a no-deal scenario could be of any benefit to the UK.

Thirdly, the Motion regrets that the Prime Minister’s negotiated settlement is inadequate. The Government initially argued against a transition or implementation period, claiming they had everything in place: it would all be done by March 2019. This deal proves how empty a boast that was. The Government are now forced to accept that such a breathing space is essential as they have not been able to reach agreement on multiple issues. The declaration outlines what both sides hope can be achieved, but it offers zero certainty. Should the deal we are debating be accepted by the other place, the Government would then bring forward what they call an implementation Bill, but nobody has any idea what it will be implementing. Our future economic prosperity, our security and our place in the world are all weakened by this agreement.

Since the publication of the political declaration, it has become clear that the envisaged trade and security relationship is below par. Even if the Prime Minister had got everything on her Chequers shopping list—and we should be clear that she is nowhere near—the result would be slower economic growth. There is no provision for a permanent UK-EU customs union, nor for continued participation in the European arrest warrant. While the EU has stated that the UK can enjoy an unprecedented level of third-country security co-operation, we have no idea whether we will have access to databases such as the second-generation Schengen Information System. On Northern Ireland, the Prime Minister produced a backstop that literally nobody is happy with—not her Back Benchers, not the DUP and certainly not the Labour Party.

What does the Prime Minister’s deal offer us? It is a wish list, with decisions to be made later. In the words of the latest Brexit Secretary,

“we have agreed to strike an ambitious new flexible and scalable relationship that allows us to combine resources worldwide for maximum impact”.

If only there was some existing international organisation that allowed the UK to maximise its contribution to global affairs. The deal before us represents a blind Brexit, with no certainty or clarity for the future. It does not deserve our support.

When the Prime Minister claims it is the best deal, what she means is that it is the best deal she has been able to negotiate. Those red lines Mrs May set at Lancaster House were never a great starting point for a strategy. Throughout, she has sought to appease one or other of the rival factions in her party. In a Statement last week, the Lord Privy Seal described Brexit as,

“building a brighter future of opportunity and prosperity for all our people”.—[Official Report, 26/11/18; col. 503.]

On what basis can that claim be made? What is the evidence? Where is the detail?

The Government’s economic analysis was modelled on a White Paper produced post-Chequers. That is not even government policy any more. We have been told that countries are queueing up to sign trade deals with us. However, the US President clearly thinks otherwise. The Prime Minister’s most positive interaction at the G20 summit was meeting her Japanese counterpart who, echoing our Motion today, pleaded with Mrs May to rule out no deal. The Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted that the deal leaves us worse off, saying:

“There will be a cost to leaving the European Union, because there will impediments to our trade”.


The options being presented by the Prime Minister are her deal—which would leave us worse off—or a catastrophic no deal. That is a Hobson’s choice, and not one that any responsible Government should ever seek to force their Parliament to take.

Let us be very clear: the Government have mismanaged this entire process. Every time there has been a fork in the road with decisions to be made on the direction ahead, the Prime Minister has taken the wrong turn. No responsible Government would ever trigger Article 50 without having some kind of blueprint for negotiations and ensuring buy-in from Parliament. No responsible Government would ever alienate their closest allies before talks had even begun by refusing to protect the rights of their citizens who have made this country their home. Surely, no responsible Government should ever talk up the chance of falling off a cliff-edge, forcing businesses to implement contingency plans that result in the loss of UK jobs.

It is little wonder the Prime Minister is living life on the edge, taking each week—or rather each day—as it comes, or that our country is so divided. That division is not the only tragedy of Brexit. Imagine if that energy, intellect, enthusiasm and money had been channelled into some of the great issues of our time: eradicating homelessness and poverty, tackling climate change, preventing disease and resolving conflict. For the first time since the Second World War, we have generations of young people without the hope, optimism or confidence in the future that their parents and grandparents had. Whatever the eventual outcome of the wider debate on Brexit, there is an obligation on all of us to address that and prove that the current state of our political life is not the norm. Parliament and politics should and must be a force for good.

The public were promised outcomes that were never realistic. Over the next few days, your Lordships’ House will do what it does best: scrutinising the agreements and highlighting the many issues and inconsistences within them. On Monday, before the Commons takes its own binding decision, I will ask your Lordships’ House to vote on the Motion standing in my name. There are just three points: first, it is for MPs to make the decision; secondly, no deal can never be an option; thirdly, even if the Prime Minister thinks it is the best deal she can get, it is inadequate. We hope our debate, the evidence we have already provided through our Select Committees and the work of our EU committee will be useful to MPs as they deliberate. As part of being helpful to the other place, we hope your Lordships’ House will want to express the view that the Prime Minister is wrong to impose this as a choice between her deal or no deal.

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, before the noble Baroness sits down, I apologise that I was not able to give her more notice of the amendment I have put down to her Motion. For reasons I shall give when I speak, I wholeheartedly go along with the first two legs of her Motion, but I cannot agree with the condemnation of the draft agreement in the last part.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

I am sorry that the noble Lord was not able to speak to me before. However, the point I am making does not differ from his, and I stand by it: the deal offered by the Prime Minister is inadequate.

Palace of Westminster: Restoration and Renewal

Lord Butler of Brockwell Excerpts

Tuesday 6th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Butler of Brockwell (CB)]

My Lords, I am sure I am not alone in your Lordships’ House in having had an initial feeling of guilt in taking part in this debate. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope, has said, the inconveniences that this decision will entail will in all probability not affect me. However, we all have various trustee roles in which we have to take decisions of which we will not see the consequences. As the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, has said, I believe that we who are Members of Parliament now are trustees of these historic buildings, so we have a duty now to take this decision.

Before the House of Commons made its decision last week, I was in favour of total decant as recommended by the Joint Committee. I found the technical advice, combined with the conclusions of the Joint Committee and the Public Accounts Committee, compelling. Without having any claim to expertise, I instinctively feel that it would not be satisfactory to expect fundamental work to be undertaken while the two Houses, or even one House, tried to remain in operation. Now the noble Baroness, Lady Stowell, has set out in very convincing detail why we should give the builders, plumbers, electricians and engineers a clear run.

However, one aspect gives me pause. The scheme that the Joint Committee recommended involves building a new Chamber for the House of Commons in open space behind Richmond Terrace. It has now been found that the space is not big enough and, as I understand it, the proposal is now to knock down Richmond House. I regret that, not only because I think Richmond House is an attractive building in itself but for the personal reason that I started my career in Richmond Terrace when it housed part of the Treasury and I have great affection for it, though I understand that the frontage of Richmond Terrace would be preserved.

In the debate in the other place, Sir Edward Leigh made the point that Sir Michael Hopkins, the architect of Portcullis House, had pointed out that a temporary shelter for the House of Commons Chamber could be accommodated in half of the atrium of Portcullis House, leaving the other half for use as now. That would of course be of great convenience to Members of the other place who have their offices around that atrium. I have the pleasure of knowing Sir Michael Hopkins, and took him to meet Mr Tom Healey, the clerk to the Joint Select Committee, who has been mentioned. We were told that the floor in Portcullis House would need reinforcing to take the weight of a temporary Chamber, and Sir Michael was persuaded that the proposal for a Chamber behind Richmond Terrace was preferable. However, if that alternative would now involve knocking down Richmond House and rebuilding it, I wonder whether the scheme of putting the Commons Chamber in part of the atrium of Portcullis House might be reconsidered. Perhaps the noble Baroness the Leader of the House could tell us whether this possibility will be re-examined within the terms of reference of the delivery authority.

It seems that a reason for the Government’s hesitation in bringing this debate forward and coming to a decision on this matter has been a fear that, at a time of austerity, the public would not take kindly to spending a substantial sum on the Houses of Parliament when they have such a low opinion of Members of Parliament. Can it really be that we have lost so much national self-confidence that our Government are frightened of spending money on necessary work to restore our Parliament, one of the iconic buildings in the world and standing for so much that the noble Baroness, Lady Andrews, so eloquently described? I am delighted that the Members of the other place were not so cowed, and I urge the House to support them.