Transport (Scotland) Act 2019 (Consequential Provisions and Modifications) Order 2023
Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Jones(1 year, 4 months ago)
Grand CommitteeRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that introduction. I have one or two questions. The order specifically focuses on low emission zones and integrated ticketing, including linking between railways and ferries, about which there is something of an issue in Scotland at the moment.
The reason why we require this is not entirely clear to me. What are the competition issues that require a UK agreement? I am not complaining about it; I want clarification. To put it the other way round: to what extent might there be a diversion within Scotland? Does that require UK Government consent or is it entirely a matter within the devolved responsibility?
To go to the specifics, low emission zones create some degree of controversy, not only in Scotland but elsewhere. I notice from looking at my local press that quite a few people are unhappy about them in Aberdeen and Glasgow. That is not a reason for not doing them; it is probably desirable to do so, but changes such as that mean that traffic going past certain businesses may change to their detriment. Do these issues have to be taken into account or are they just an unfortunate consequence?
On integrated ticketing, ScotRail and most of the ferries are wholly owned by the Scottish Government, although there are private operators, so what is the competition impact of that? Is it on other private operators —alternative forms of transport—which would seem valid to me? From looking at the various briefs, the established practice is clearly that each region and local authority in England has its own rules about this, and it seems that we are just applying the same rules in Scotland. Is that to have consistency across the piece so that, wherever they are in the UK, people can appreciate that the principles behind these will broadly be the same?
I concur with what the Minister said at the beginning. As a strong supporter of devolution—indeed, I would call myself a passionate home ruler—but not of separatism, it is good to see proper working between the two Governments; it is desirable. It would just be good if the Scottish Government could acknowledge that it happens a little more openly and be a bit more constructive about it, because to my mind that is how it should work.
Obviously, reassurance on TUPE—it is about workers’ rights, I guess, and is absolutely a UK matter—is welcome. I happen to be a member of the Common Frameworks Scrutiny Committee. We have been going through all these issues; indeed, the noble Lord opposite has also gone through that process, which has been slow and cumbersome and is a long way short of being complete. We are finding that there should not be difference for difference’s sake. It is good to have standard and agreed practices but divergence should also be allowed to apply. I want some assurance that, in passing this order, we are neither imposing conditions unnecessarily nor preventing diversion where it is necessary. On the basis that the Minister has said that it has been agreed between the two Governments, I assume that there are no outstanding issues of that sort.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his remarks, which were lucid and forthright. Is it the case that the DVLA referred to in paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum is the DVLA at Morriston in Swansea? That is a huge, valued employer in Wales with a marvellous workforce. One does not want a Scottish competitor, if I may say so. It must be securely located in the Principality. Similarly, where is the Joint Air Quality Unit located? Is it a UK unit? Lastly—I want to be brief in this cool Moses Room—there is a reference in paragraph 12.1 of the Explanatory Memorandum to a “Justice Impact Test”. Can the Minister elaborate on what that process is?
Digital Government (Disclosure of Information) (Amendment) Regulations 2022
Debate between Lord Bruce of Bennachie and Lord Jones
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for that introduction and explanation. There is very wide support for the extension of childcare. Indeed, I have always believed that structured play and social engagement for young children is beneficial. Very early on in my political career, I campaigned successfully for increased funding for playgroups and for the extension of nursery-year schools in my area—I might say against campaigns from other political parties that were less supportive.
The basic understanding of the consultation is that it is overwhelmingly supported because of the objective, but there are perhaps one or two wrinkles worth pointing out. First, in that context, all children and all families are different, so there should not be a presumption that every child must or should go to childcare or nursery education between the ages of two and five. It should be a choice for the family and the parents, and sometimes there is pressure that is not appreciated.
Looking at some of the responses to the consultation, they were, I accept, overwhelmingly supportive across the piece—as the Minister pointed out—but large statistics still cover small minorities of concern. Taking one section as an example, 55% of respondents said that they saw no risk of loss of benefits; that means a pretty substantial minority were concerned that there might be. Does the Minister have any information on how that could come about and what the risks were? In the same category, 64% of respondents saw no risk of a loss of access to services, but that leaves a significant minority concerned that there might be. While in no way detracting from the very targeted purpose and desirability of this overall, and the general support for it, there needs to be recognition that there will be people for whom this raises some concerns.
Coming on to the specifics of the actual data-sharing, the Minister was careful to acknowledge that, by definition, data collected for one purpose being used for another is very much of concern. When people give information, they need to know what it is for and not to find it has been used for something they did not expect. In that context, it seems that the relationship between the Government, local authorities and all the relevant agencies needs to be sensitively handled. Think of a family who are struggling: if somebody rocks up at their door saying, “We have data to suggest this”, it could create a sense of threat or concern because we are, by definition, talking about vulnerable communities. What provision is there for ensuring that there is co-ordination and the best networking to get the most sensitive application of this and the desired result? The desired result should surely be that every child whose parents wish it and who qualifies should be found and given the opportunity to benefit from the care and support that is on offer and paid for.
Finally, it is interesting that devolution lives within this instrument, and I have no problem with that. But there was a point in a debate last week, which I unfortunately could not attend because I was speaking in the Chamber, where the Scottish Government were again asking the UK Government for assistance in collecting data. Again, I have no problem with it but it raises the question of what the capacity of the Scottish Government is or should be, or, indeed, why on earth they need a separate capacity if there is a perfectly adequate UK-wide system that they can access, subject to the appropriate safeguards.
The people of Scotland have voted more than once for devolution. They have never voted for independence, but you would hardly know that when you talk to Scottish Government Ministers, who have a great reluctance to admit publicly that devolution has any merit—never mind that it applies the will of the Scottish people, while they frustrate that will by promoting something the people do not want. In the meantime, this co-operation across the UK in data-sharing for legitimate purposes seems efficient and sensible and, in that context, I am happy to support the instrument from these Benches.
Lord Jones (Lab)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for his patient and courteous exposition. I rise essentially as a matter of principle, because these regulations rattle through so often when they are so important. Briefly, in the helpful explanatory pages I note that he has consulted Welsh and Scottish Ministers. The Explanatory Notes have this important Scottish example, which gives the regulations a very human form. My question to him is: how were the consultations carried out? Were they digital or personal? He might be able to give some indication of whether they were effective consultations. Might he also instance an example of an action or objective concerning Wales or England? The Scottish one was fine, but are there others that come to his mind?