Afghan Refugees

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 17th April 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I was there in 2021, working through the night on a lot of the Afghans who arrived here in the initial batch of over 21,000, so I can give my noble friend that assurance. We need to ensure that those who are entitled to come to the United Kingdom do so, through the processes we have in place, including normalisation of their documentation. We want to have a very open and constructive relationship with the Government of Pakistan, in particular, to enable this to happen.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

As the Minister has said, among the Afghan refugees in Pakistan are a significant number of former Afghan Special Forces, known as the Triples, many of whom are there only because they were wrongly judged to be ineligible for resettlement here under the ARAP scheme. They face certain death if they are forcibly removed to Afghanistan, as do their families. Am I to infer from the Minister’s earlier references to the review, which was set up to look at their cases again, that some of these people are being allowed visas to come to this country? I am not aware of that.

Nor do I agree with the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, with whom I have been persistently debating the issue of the review. In the Safety of Rwanda (Asylum and Immigration) Bill debate yesterday, he said the following regarding the much smaller number of people here in the United Kingdom who I am trying to get this Bill amended to cover:

“I reassure Parliament that, once the UKSF ARAP review has concluded”,—[Official Report, 16/4/24; col. 901.]

and went on to say what the Government would do. If these people in Pakistan have to wait for that, there is no hope for them. Time is of the essence. This review needs to be completed as quickly as possible. If it is being incrementally concluded for individuals, perhaps the Minister could tell the House.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am focused on that, and I know that the Ministry of Defence are leading on it. As to these cases, we are not waiting for the end of the review to process those who are eligible for that scheme. As they become eligible, they will be processed appropriately.

Climate and Nature

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 22nd November 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, climate change is already having a material effect on malaria transmission. Forecasts suggest that owing to a rise in global temperatures, transmission seasons could be up to five months longer by 2070. Already, malaria rates in Mozambique are at their highest since the current reporting phase began in 2017. More than 70% of anti- malaria drugs used in Africa are imported, so what is the international community doing, and what are we doing, to stimulate local manufacture of drugs to ensure that weaknesses in the international supply chain do not result in preventable deaths?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Lord is correct and I can assure him, from our experience of the Covid pandemic, that we are working in collaboration with India on global health generally but specifically on malaria. We welcome India in tackling global health threats and the whole issue of malaria is something we are looking at specifically, based on our research, in terms of collaboration with India on manufacturing. Indeed, two of the main vaccines currently being developed for malaria are actually UK research based.

Ukraine: Zaporizhzhia Nuclear Power Plant

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 6th July 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, in respect of the plant itself, it is important that the IAEA gets in to find out whether there are explosive devices on top of two of the reactors, why they would be put there and what likely damage they would do if they exploded. It is suggested that they are there for it to appear as though the Ukrainians have bombed the plant themselves. The most important thing here is not to get confused between perceived dangers and real dangers. This plant is of a particular design. My understanding is that the most dangerous nuclear fission that could come from it will have been depleted because it has not been working for months—I think it is iodine-113, though this is not from my expertise but from my reading. We need an authoritative explanation of the risks, from a nuclear engineer of repute, telling us what the potential consequences would be of further damage to this plant—not speculation by people from their recollections of previous incidents. This is a distinctive plant that was created in a particular way. My understanding is that we can be reassured that, while it would not be a good thing to happen and there would be significant local consequences, this is not a repeat of Chernobyl.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

The noble Lord is well-informed by his reading, and his is very much an accurate assessment. This particular plant is much more modern and state-of-the-art. The fact is that most of its activities and energy generations have been turned down—indeed, most of the reactors are now not operational. Even without inspections, that assessment can be made. However, I add the necessary caveat that all of us, including Russia, will get reassurance when the IAEA can get access and, as the noble Lord said, there is an expert opinion on the table that we all recognise. This war will continue but it is in Russia’s interests, not just Ukraine’s and everyone else’s, to allow access. Russia itself has been a signatory to ensuring that this kind of access and assessments of facilities are done regularly, accurately and comprehensively.

Nova Kakhovka Dam

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 13th June 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I accept what my noble friend says. The challenge has been that, as the dam broke, pollutants and other substances such as oil and petrol contaminated the whole river. As I said to the noble and gallant Lord, Lord Stirrup, there are implications for both agricultural land and the ecological habitats along the river. The assessment is still yet to be made fully.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests. Like many other parliamentarians, I am an ambassador for the Halo Trust. The breach in the Kakhovka dam is flooding extensive minefields and dislodging many thousands of landmines. In fact, Halo has cleared 5,000 landmines from that area in the last month alone. Looking ahead, as the noble Lord is constantly being invited to do, to 21 June and the Ukraine recovery conference, there can simply be no talk of reconstruction in Ukraine without first focusing on making the land safe from explosions. What steps are the Government taking to ensure that landmines and unexploded ordnance, of which there is an incredible amount in that country, are firmly at the forefront of delegates’ minds as they gather in London later this month?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord. What is very evident, as he said, is that large sections around the dam and the river have been cleared of landmines. The United Kingdom Government have worked with the Halo Trust, and its CEO, James Cowan, will be addressing the Ukrainian conference on the specific issue of demining in advance of reconstruction in Ukraine.

Sudan: Civilian Population

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 18th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I assure the noble Baroness that we are looking at our full humanitarian response to the crisis, including working with Sudan’s near neighbours. We have issued a new £5 million funding package as an immediate response to the crisis, and we are looking at what other funding we can provide. However, I will be very open with the noble Baroness about the challenge. As the noble Lord, Lord Collins, highlighted, there are supplies and support, but it needs to get through to Sudan. As the noble Baroness will be aware from her own work, South Sudan is also reliant on that supply route from Sudan, which presents an extra logistical challenge. We are looking at announcing new measures, and the House will be updated.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, further to the excellent question from the noble Baroness, Lady Smith of Newnham, and the Minister’s response, would a refugee seeking to flee this dreadful conflict in Sudan be able to find a safe and legal route to the United Kingdom?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, we work with key agencies, including the UNHCR, to ensure that there is a validated process for those seeking refuge. During the crisis in Sudan, we also provided support for British nationals and their relatives—qualifying dependants—to leave Sudan. As I said in my answer to the noble Baroness, the Home Office is looking at what further response is necessary.

Ukraine: Ceasefire

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 15th May 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Without going into the details of the full deployment, we are working very closely with not just the Ukrainians but our other key partners to ensure that not only do they receive the equipment, including tanks, that they need, but they receive full training and, importantly, the munitions they need to fulfil their obligation to defend their nation.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, last weekend, speaking publicly, the former head of MI6 said that President Putin’s strategy in Ukraine is one of attrition—“to wait it out”. With the possibility of a more isolationist United States post the presidential election, my suspicion is that Putin is measuring as much by western electoral cycles as by more conventional military metrics. So what discussions are we having with our allies about a diplomatic framework that could bring this conflict to an end; in particular, about the nature of the security guarantees that will be offered to Ukraine to ensure a lasting, equitable peace?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I have in part already answered the noble Lord’s second question. We welcome all peace initiatives and anything leading towards that. The grain deal was a good example of working with international partners, including the UN, but we are seeing that there is a reluctance on the part of Russia even to sign off a valuable lifeline in terms of grain. In terms of electoral cycles, the real strength of democracy is illustrated here, in the US and elsewhere across Europe. The unity of purpose and action is shared by parties of different political spectrums. The message going out to Mr Putin is that he may think the electoral cycle may deter the United Kingdom or the United States, but it will not.

Council of Europe: Reykjavik Summit

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 18th April 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am sure there will be an opportunity, when the Bill passes through the other place and comes to the House of Lords, to debate it extensively. It is important that we stand up for our obligations, including those we have made to conventions we signed up to, and for the role that the ECHR has played historically and continues to play. The United Kingdom agrees that, when we look at certain issues, including the illegal invasion of Ukraine by Russia, the ECHR and indeed the Council of Europe are playing a very important role.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I will follow on from that question on interim measures. The Minister will be aware that last summer the European Court of Human Rights, in an interim measure, spared two British citizens from being executed by Russia. In the case of Ukraine versus Russia, President Zelensky presently holds an interim measure against Russia to constrain the use of military force against civilians. Given our history of seeking and supporting interim measures, and their importance for people facing imminent risk of irreparable harm, does the Minister agree that the Council of Europe in Reykjavik would be an appropriate forum for the Government to reaffirm their commitment to legally binding interim measures which a number of our citizens hold?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord has mentioned a number of cases of interim measures, and of course I recognise the important role that the Council of Europe has played. On our priorities for the summit, which he also alluded to, we will ensure the strengthening of the Council of Europe. It will see representation at high levels of government, but reiterate our important role—he mentioned our support for Ukraine in Russia’s illegal war.

Execution of Alireza Akbari

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 18th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, there are those who are based here in the UK and receive threats, including those who work for British interests and are receiving threats. When I say “British interests”, I mean British companies such as BBC Persian, in terms of the important work that it does on the ground in providing communication. Although the service is operationally and editorially independent, the support that we give it is important. We are providing both that support and the information that is needed.

Of course, as the noble Baroness pointed out, the threat goes much wider than Iran itself. We have an unprecedented situation—it is certainly unprecedented in my time in Parliament—where Members of both Houses have had to be directly advised about the nature of a threat from a foreign state actor, in this case Iran. That puts into context the gravity of the situation and the actions that the regime may resort to in order to cause further disruption, challenge and misery not just to its own citizens but elsewhere. We are clear in our stance on this, which is why it is important that we work closely with all departments across government and equally important that we work closely with our international partners as well.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, the violent repression of protests and the callous execution of Alireza Akbari expose further the barbarism of a regime that has no regard for human rights or the international rules-based order. Given this, what are the prospects of getting the JCPOA back on track? If the FCDO believes the JCPOA to be irretrievable, what alternative steps will the Government and our allies take to ensure that Iran cannot develop a nuclear weapon, which would only give the worst elements of this regime even greater latitude in this and many other regards?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with incredible experience of and insight into the work going on in defence and the JCPOA. Frankly, Iran’s escalation of its nuclear activities threatens not just stability in the region. Even putting the JCPOA aside, we have seen the steps that it is increasingly taking—for example, the explicit and direct support that it has extended to Russia in supporting UAVs, which have then been used in Ukraine—which demonstrate Iran’s intention not just to cause the suppression of its own citizens and cause instability in the region but to cause and fuel division and conflict further afield. The actions that it has taken recently put any kind of diplomatic solution highly at risk. We supported the JCPOA at a time when the previous US Administration pulled back because, even with all its faults, there was no other deal on the table. Last year, on two occasions, there was a big opportunity for Iran to sign the deal, but it did not do so. Recent actions make this much more difficult, but we are clear, which is why I stress the importance of working with our international partners, that we must do all that we can to prevent Iran from ever attaining a nuclear weapon.

Nagorno-Karabakh

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 17th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I commend the noble Baroness for her continued campaign in this regard. I am aware that both the noble Baroness and the noble Lord, Lord Alton, have written recently about this situation, particularly concerning the institutions which the noble Baroness mentioned, such as schools. As I have alluded to already, we are working closely with international agencies, including the ICRC, to get their direct impact assessment of the closure. The Government will remain a significant donor in this respect. I have also alluded to the importance we attach to our obligations and commitments under the genocide convention. We will continue to work closely with our UN partners at the Security Council, as we did in December.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, what are the Government doing to highlight the ambiguous role played by the 2,000 Russian peacekeeping forces in the region? How are they ensuring that, at the same time, Baku does not use the presence of those forces to conceal its own intentions and actions in respect of the closure of the corridor?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, of course we are aware of the presence of regional actors, including Russia, as the noble Lord has articulated. Following Russia’s invasion of Ukraine, we have currently suspended all engagement with the Russian authorities, except on a very limited number of issues. Their continued presence should be to keep the peace, as was intended, and not to exacerbate the situation. However, I regret that I do not believe that to be the case. We will continue to work using all good offices, particularly our direct contacts. Indeed, I met with the Armenian Foreign Minister in December to reassure him of our good offices in trying to reach a direct resolution to this long-standing dispute and conflict.

Ethiopia: Peace Process

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 5th December 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Chakrabarti (Lab)]

Hear, hear!

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con)]

My Lords, it is good to hear the noble Baroness in such good voice. We welcome the peace agreement between the Ethiopian Government and the Tigray People’s Liberation Front to end the conflict in northern Ethiopia. The agreement makes provision for an AU-chaired committee to monitor and verify its implementation. We are ready to provide support towards implementation of the agreement and have communicated this offer to the African Union and the Ethiopian Government. We have also called on the Eritrean Government to support the agreement by withdrawing their troops from Ethiopia.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, on Friday, the Associated Press reported that Eritrean forces are continuing their killings of civilians in the Tigray region, and according to the Washington Post yesterday, “Ethiopian guards massacred scores of Tigrayan prisoners.” On 17 November, before the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, US Assistant Secretary of State for African Affairs Phee committed to further sanctions on Eritrea if it does not throw its troops out, and to neither restoration of the US African Growth and Opportunity Act nor support for international loans for Ethiopia until unrestricted humanitarian aid enters Tigray and civilian detainees are released. Is the Minister able to make similar commitments today for His Majesty’s Government?

Ukraine: Post-conflict Reconstruction

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 24th November 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, both Iraq and Afghanistan have taught us that for the rebuilding of a country we need strategic patience, and the international community does not have enough of that. We also need transparency and accountability, or else we will fail. Ukraine, for all that it deserves, is one of the most corrupt countries in the world according to Transparency International. It is fundamental to the investment of reconstruction money into this country that we set up accountability and transparency regarding where the international money is going. I hope that we take a role, because of our experience in both Iraq and Afghanistan, to ensure that it is right.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I agree with the noble Lord. One of the real challenges we have in any conflict is ensuring that money reaches those who require it. It is a continued commitment. The noble Lord referred to Afghanistan and Iraq. I know first-hand of the continued challenges, with people looking to intervene and interject, particularly with financial support throughout the country. These are the very points that we are focused on in respect of Ukraine. We need a continued strategic approach from a UK government perspective, but equally, whether it is the United States, the EU, ourselves or other key allies, we need to be totally aligned and working to a single objective.

Sri Lanka

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 13th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, we are certainly watching that space very closely. Communal tensions arise in any conflict where communities perhaps seek to assign blame to another community. We are also looking very carefully at pre-existing religious tensions. Although there have been raids into the presidential compound and the Prime Minister’s residence, we have not yet seen or monitored an increase in communal tension between the two major communities in Sri Lanka.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, Sri Lanka has a dark history of human rights abuses, the vast majority being perpetrated with complete impunity. Today’s fear, with the announcement of a state of emergency coupled with political instability, is that these terrible atrocities will begin again. What conversations has the Minister or any of his colleagues had with our partners about how we can avoid these fears being realised? On the issue of impunity, it appears that the Rajapaksa brothers are intent on going to the United States of America. Can we have some conversations with our American ally about whether the impunity they have enjoyed up until now will survive that transfer to the USA?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord talks about impunity regarding conflicts past, particularly the civil war. That is why the United Kingdom has led on Resolution 46/1 at the Human Rights Council. When I was last in Geneva, I engaged directly with the Sri Lankan Foreign Minister, saying that we would sustain our support for it. That remains an important issue, and I am sure it will be a point of discussion when the UNHRC returns in September.

As to the current situation with the previous Administration, including Mr Rajapaksa and other members of his family, countries will make their own determinations but we want the perpetrators of the civil war to be held to account. Equally, we want to ensure that the communities that suffered do not see the conflicts of the past occur again.

Tigray

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 4th July 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, again, without getting too much into the arms sales issue, as I have said repeatedly from the Dispatch Box, we have a very rigid policy when it comes to arms and defence sales across the world; those same principles are applied irrespective of which country may be requesting that support or assistance from the UK.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, this conflict is a humanitarian disaster of monumental proportions; 9 million people have been affected by it and about half a million people have died. Turning to the peace process which has been proposed, the TPLF does not trust the African Union to lead the peace process and wants Kenya to lead it instead. Given that on Thursday last week Prime Minister Abiy’s spokesperson spoke very positively about the relationship between Ethiopia and Kenya and between Prime Minister Abiy and President Kenyatta, should we not argue for the Kenyan Government to work alongside the AU and its envoy as a compromise solution? Surely with what is at stake, that is what is necessary: a compromise.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord makes a very valid proposal and I assure him that in our engagement with Kenya the importance of the situation in Ethiopia is part and parcel of our discussions. I think there will be a change of leadership very shortly in Kenya, with President Kenyatta stepping down. But it is equally important that we engage proactively to ensure that whoever then goes on to lead Kenya is fully engaged in finding a solution to this process.

Aiden Aslin and Shaun Pinner

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 28th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I hear what the noble Lord says. Of course, he is right to articulate that we have been making representations, including directly with the Russian authorities. We do not recognise the de facto authorities in occupied parts of Ukraine, and I think that is the right approach. I assure him of our good offices in every element of ensuring the rights of all the detainees who are currently being detained by Russia and strengthening the hand of Ukraine in their representation.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, in the case of Aiden Aslin, on 18 April, Graham Phillips, a former British civil servant and pro-Russian propagandist, published a video interview with him—a prisoner of war, in handcuffs, physically injured and manifestly under duress—and extracted from him an admission, in those conditions, that he was not a Ukrainian soldier but had a different relationship with the war. Experts who have studied this video and its circumstances say there is sufficient evidence there to support the view that this was a breach of the Geneva conventions on the treatment of prisoners of war, and that Phillips, a British citizen, is at risk of prosecution for war crimes. As he is a British citizen, ought we not to be further investigating this to see whether he has indeed violated international law, and issuing a warrant for his arrest?

British Council Contractors: Afghanistan

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 27th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, if I understand this correctly, these people are contractors for the British Council, and employees of GardaWorld are working as security contractors for the Government and the embassy. In Scotland, they are very well known to us; we know exactly who these people are and we know a lot about them. Presumably, given what they were doing, we must be very sanguine about their attitude towards security. Why were these people excluded from the ARAP scheme in the first place? Why does the British Council now tell us that it was allowed to put only employees through the ARAP scheme and not the contractors? Why is it only now that we recognise that we should fulfil our obligation not only to them but to their families, to the extent of 1,500 people? Why do we not just include them in the ARAP scheme and give them the flexibility that everyone else has, rather than putting these people—a lot of whom, as we know, are living in daily fear of their lives—through this short window of opportunity to get registered for resettlement and, we hope, to get back to security with us?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, first, as the noble Lord is aware, there are two different schemes: the ARAP scheme has its eligibility criteria and the ACRS—which is now open as this particular pathway—has its own criteria. I know of individual cases of people being considered for the ARAP scheme but not being accepted on to it. However, there have been opportunities, as we have seen in certain cases, allowing others then to go through the ACRS process.

On the small window of opportunity that the noble Lord asked about, there is a cap on the number we will be taking in year one which is both manageable and, I think, consistent with the announcements we have made previously. Equally, this is only year one; other pathways are also open to those seeking settlement, including Pathway 2, on which we are working very closely with the UNHCR. There are those people, including those from the cohorts we have discussed, who will be in neighbouring countries. We are working very closely with the UNHCR on that pathway as well. Therefore, ARAP, ACRS, Pathway 2 and, indeed, ACRS Pathway 3 are different routes, which enable people to go through a process which would allow for their resettlement in the United Kingdom.

Covid-19: Global Vaccine Inequity

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 27th April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I pay tribute to my noble friend’s work in Nepal, and I am grateful for his briefings on his work there. We delivered 131,000 AstraZeneca vaccines to Nepal in October and since August, overall through the COVAX facility, we have delivered a further 2.2 million donated vaccines to Nepal. COVAX remains in our view the best way to allocate vaccines, but we are also working directly with the Nepalese Government to ensure that we focus some of our support directly on the medical, social and economic consequences of Covid-19. I hope to visit that country soon, and we will be focused on these priorities bilaterally with the Government of Nepal.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, on 12 May, the White House will co-host the second global Covid-19 summit, a gathering intended to build momentum for vaccine donations, discuss efforts to end the pandemic and prepare for future health threats. Can the Minister confirm that we will participate in that summit meeting, and if so, can he tell the House what our priorities are for the meeting and whether the Government plan to make any announcements of actions there to address the continuing global vaccine inequity challenge?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I can confirm to the noble Lord that we will of course be actively engaged and working with the United States on that very event. In terms of priorities, as I have already said, we are very much focused on the most vulnerable. When we look at the global south there is much work still to be done. Indeed, two weeks ago during our UN presidency of the Security Council, I chaired a meeting of the Security Council specifically on Covid-19 which focused on reaching the most vulnerable, particularly those affected by conflict or humanitarian crises.

Ukraine: Rape as a Weapon of War

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Friday 1st April 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend is of course right. We are working through a new initiative to strengthen our approach to sexual violence launched by my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary. We are increasing the number of countries that are now part of that. As I indicated, I shall also be at the UN in a couple of weeks’ time, where this will be primary among my engagements bilaterally. I can share with your Lordships’ House that we have already made a public commitment to holding a specific event on preventing sexual violence in conflict. We are finalising some of the dates, but it is likely to be in the last quarter of this year.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords—

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, as the noble Baroness has said, increasingly, rape and sexual violence as a weapon of war is becoming the rule and accountability is becoming the exception. One exception is that in Germany in January a Syrian former intelligence officer was sentenced to life imprisonment for crimes against humanity committed in the Syrian civil war, including rape. This is an example of national courts prosecuting irrespective of nationality where an offence has been committed if they have in place universal jurisdiction laws, as in a limited way we do. Even Russia has universal jurisdiction laws. There is enormous potential in this area. Are our Government working with allies and others to explore that route and to extend it substantially?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I can assure the noble Lord that the answer to that is yes. Earlier this week, I attended a meeting chaired by the Deputy Prime Minister and the Justice Secretary that covered among other issues the very issue that the noble Lord has raised.

To pick up a strand of what the noble Lord, Lord Purvis, may have wanted to ask about, on Yazidis, as I indicated in response to my noble friend Lady Anelay, while the Security Council meeting that we will be hosting will home in on the situation in Ukraine, it will not in any shape or form diminish the continuing issues of sexual violence in other conflicts. I mentioned Nadia Murad. As a Yazidi, she is working centrally with the Government.

On accountability and justice, as was said earlier by the noble Baroness, Lady Hussein-Ece, we know of the experience of the Balkans. It took more than 20 years for women—there have also been men who have tragically fallen victim to this crime—to get any sense of justice. It can take time, but the United Kingdom launched this initiative with the view that it would be very much on the front burner and it remains a key priority. I shall of course update noble Lords on my return from the United Nations about progress being made.

Ukraine

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 30th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on my noble friend’s final point, in any sanctions we of course look at a full range of factors to determine who we sanction. We are dynamic in our response, looking at the implications of any sanctions that we have imposed and wider ones that need to apply. I hear very clearly my noble friend’s comments on our defence, but, of course, in advance of this conflict we increased defence spending. Nevertheless, conflicts such as these bring in an important consideration of ensuring that our integrated review and its outcomes are applicable and relevant to the world as we see it today.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, has the Minister had the opportunity to read the words written yesterday by Richard Haass, the veteran diplomat and peacemaker and the current president of the Council on Foreign Relations? I refer to them because he very clearly stated that, at this stage, there ought to be two priorities for his Government and other Governments who support Ukraine. I refer to him because I agree with him. First, we need to concentrate on ending this war on terms that are acceptable to Ukraine. Secondly, in the meantime, we need to discourage and deter escalation by President Putin—that is crucially important. So we should all think about what is a plausible war termination, because I believe that we will be asked that question sooner rather than later. We should also be very careful about what we say, because if it gives President Putin the sense that he has nothing to lose, he will be discouraged from any form of restraint in those circumstances. I wonder whether our Government are approaching the situation in this way, appreciating—as I am sure the Minister does, having come to know him—that this ought to be very important to all of us.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have not actually seen the statement raised by the noble Lord, but I will look at it. In principle, I agree with both points raised. The first is very clear: when it comes to peace, any resolution must be led and agreed by Ukraine, as I said in response to the noble Lord, Lord McDonald. That remains part and parcel of our thinking. On Mr Putin and Russia, President Zelensky has repeatedly been calling for direct talks, because it is important that the leaders of those two countries sit down to determine their future pathway. It is also important that other countries that support Ukraine, as we do, fully support direct contact in such negotiations.

Offshore Companies: Property

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 29th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am surprised that the noble Lord let the speaker of the BVI leave without giving a straight answer to his question. Perhaps he should have been slightly more persuasive in his normal way. That said, I agree with the noble Lord that it is important. Of course, it is the responsibility of Parliaments and Governments to ensure that appropriate access is given. I have already indicated that there is a working, constructive relationship, particularly with those OTs which have financial services at their core. Equally, the commitment that the overseas territories have given, both in terms of response to the sanctions and their commitment to public registers, is something we welcome. We continue to work very practically and pragmatically with them.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, the scale of this challenge is enormous. Transparency International UK has found £250 billion worth of funds diverted by rigged procurement, bribery, embezzlement and unlawful acquisition of state assets from across 79 different countries sheltering in companies registered in the UK’s overseas territories. Why is there a reluctance to deal with this problem? Why has it taken so long—since 2018—to have the Order in Council enacted for this register? Is it because, for example, the British Virgin Islands, with a GDP of $1.027 billion is responsible for $24.3 billion of inward investment into the United Kingdom? Is that the real reason?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

No, my Lords, the real reasons are that there is a practical working relationship with the overseas territories, and that the SAML Act which was brought forward, approved and became not just something we debated but an Act, guaranteed that the overseas territories would respond with public registers. As I have already explained, that is happening. There are existing arrangements in place. There is no reluctance, but it is right that we work constructively with the sectors, and of course there are issues, as the noble Lord points out, about corruption and criminality. It is right that we act, and act accordingly.

Ukraine: Discussions with US and China

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 17th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I am the Minister responsible for our relations with India and I can assure my noble friend that we are engaging very constructively with India about the Ukrainian war. India also recognises its important role. Of course, it has a strong historic relationship with Russia, but it also recognises that what has happened is an unprovoked attack on a sovereign state. As my noble friend said, it is important that all democracies around the world call for an immediate ceasefire. Immediately after that, it will be important to ensure that the territorial sovereignty and integrity of Ukraine is fully protected.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, on the issue of the territorial integrity of Ukraine, I was pleased yesterday to see that the FCDO’s update included in its very first point a reference to the peace talks and to President Zelensky’s demand that the world gives his country ongoing, guaranteed, legally enforceable security for its borders. It is not surprising, because the Budapest Memorandum proved worthless and unenforceable. The Minsk agreements were also unenforceable and unimplementable. Deterrence has failed. It is only serving the purposes of the bloody aggressor who is stopping us from putting in the skies some safety for the people of Ukraine.

We should now be turning our attention to how the future of Ukraine—when it is eventually negotiated, as it will have to be—can be guaranteed. The international co-operation on economics and sanctions forms the basis of that. We should be working on it now to reinforce Zelensky’s position in these negotiations.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord will be aware that the United Kingdom has a very strong relationship with Ukraine that dates back not just to the start of this Russian war of choice but is of long standing. We have been providing defensive support to Ukraine since the annexation of Crimea. Defence continues to play an important, central role in the UK’s response to the Russian invasion.

The noble Lord made a point about sanctions. This is not about now; we have already begun this work. It is multifaceted and the important thing is that we are working in unison with our key partners.

Sanctions

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 1st March 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the noble Lord’s second question, perhaps I can answer it with his first suggestion. To untangle such challenges we must work together, which is exactly what we are doing. We are working here in the United Kingdom and with key partners to negate the negative influence of Russian money and illicit finance in the United Kingdom and more broadly. As he will have seen from the sanctions we have introduced, they are reflective of that very objective. I am sure he will find that, as further legislation comes forward, further sanctions are applied and we have discussions on the economic crime Bill, we can untangle some of those issues.

On the issue of leadership, I have served with the noble Lord in government and I am sure he agrees that there are times when the United Kingdom leads the way, and I am proud of that. The richness of our history, our experience and our expertise reflects that. It is that leadership which also leads to enhanced partnerships, and that is exactly the approach we have adopted in this crisis.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Statement. It is certain that cryptocurrency will be used extensively to at least attempt to avoid these sanctions. There is no question about that. I think the Government are alert to that; the Foreign Secretary’s answers in the other place certainly indicated that they were. For the second day in a row, can I try to persuade a Minister to get the Financial Conduct Authority—

“the anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing … supervisor of UK cryptoasset businesses”

under the money laundering regulations—to remove the list of non-compliant crypto- asset dealers from its website? It is advertising money launderers to crooks and kleptocrats. Can they please be removed? There are 220 of them. It is not just their names: their websites and sometimes their mobile phone numbers are there.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

They say that when you say it once, you say it twice; I hope the noble Lord might not need to say it thrice. I certainly note very carefully what he said. Of course, cryptocurrency provides an opportunity to weave a way out of some of the sanctions restrictions that are being applied, as he rightly articulated. I noted very carefully what he said and I will respond with more detail in due course.

Ukraine: NATO Membership

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 24th February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I agree with my noble friend and can assure him that, later today, I will host a meeting with the ambassadors of the UN Security Council members in the Court of St James. It is important that we see unity. Of course, we fully expect any resolution to be vetoed by Russia in the Security Council, but there will be further debates in the General Assembly in which we will look to show the maximum level of support across all nations.

The other thing that is often forgotten is the point made by my right honourable friend the Defence Secretary: around 1/16 of Russia’s border faces countries that are members of the NATO alliance. So we need to put this into context and perspective as well.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I join the Minister and my noble friend Lord Collins in their condemnation of what is a crime against the peaceful people of Ukraine. It ought to be condemned at every turn. Suddenly in these circumstances we are talking about and debating the issue of NATO expansion, when it was not an issue at all. As the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, said, this plays exactly to Putin’s playbook. It is of advantage to him only because it distracts from urgent matters—namely, Russia’s problems, which are driving his criminal behaviour. President Biden, who, over the course of two decades of war in Iraq and Afghanistan, has grown sceptical about expanding US military commitments, has been open and honest with the Ukrainians about the unlikelihood of them meeting the current criteria for membership. Will the Minister do likewise and help to put this issue to bed now, so that we can concentrate on what is actually happening?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I have already outlined the Government’s position on Ukraine’s NATO membership, as and whenever that might take place. Of course, there are certain criteria, which have been detailed and shared with the Ukrainians. If they meet those criteria, it is a choice for Ukraine to join NATO and for other member states to agree its membership. However, at this particular juncture, I agree with the noble Lord that our focus should be very much on the situation as it is unravelling. We offer Ukraine our full support in every respect and are working, together with our NATO allies and our partners across the European Union, in the context of the United States and others, to ensure that this message is received in Moscow very clearly: its actions were not just unprovoked but are an act of aggression against a sovereign state. Pull back, and pull back now.

Russia: Sanctions

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 1st February 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, my noble friend raises a very important point. I think the implications of any sanctions and support are well recognised. I point my noble friend specifically to the steps we have taken just now in support of Ukraine directly, which will be impacted in the first instance, and the new funding I alluded to earlier, looking specifically at the issue of Russian energy supplies. That indicates the seriousness with which the UK recognises the impact of such sanctions.

However, it is important that Russia understands very clearly and unequivocally that its actions of not just taking but retaining territory, annexing territory, as it is threatening to do now further in Ukraine are firmly unacceptable, not just to us but to our allies and the world community generally. Therefore, it is in Russia’s hand to reflect on what is being said, but this is serious. This is a serious point in the crisis, and it is therefore important that we engage diplomatically and directly. That is why my right honourable friend the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary have said directly to their respective counterparts that they wish to meet to discuss with them. One hopes that the diplomatic channel will bear fruit.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, like other Members of this House, I support the sanctions that were announced in this Statement. It is crucial that we do not undermine the steps that our Government are taking to get the message to the Russians. The problem is that if the Russians read the international press today, they will get a very different message. The headline in the Washington Post is:

“Britain, the tough-on-Russia ally, is being undermined by London”.


On Bloomberg.com it is:

“‘Londongrad’ Undermines U.K.’s Tough Talk on Russia Sanctions”.


In the Sydney Morning Herald—with the Secretary of State having just come back from there after a very important visit—it is:

“Billions parked in ‘Londongrad’ undermines Britain’s tough talk on Russia sanctions”.


We can impose sanctions on all of the people identified in this very welcome Statement, but we will not be able to seize their assets because we do not know who owns the assets. If we have to wait until 2023 to have a register that allows our Government to know who owns the assets, then these sanctions will deter no one.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, London already operates a public register. When I referred to 2023, that was in the context of our overseas territories. We already have a scheme for OTs, called the exchange of notes, which the noble Lord will be aware of. I know directly through its operation, and through speaking to, for example, tax authorities and crime agencies, that they are able to access the necessary information. However, I agree with the noble Lord that there is more to be done on this issue. I outlined some of our plans for greater transparency at Companies House to show greater levels of ownership. I assure the noble Lord that the broadening of what we are seeking to do through the legislation proposed will allow us to target individuals and organisations quite specifically and to freeze their assets as well.

Russia

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 10th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

Suffice it to say that I totally agree with noble Lord. The NATO alliance is a defensive alliance and it is for countries to make the case to join that defensive alliance. Wendy Sherman, the Deputy Secretary of State, has said today that one of our red lines is very clear: there will be no shutting the door to future membership of NATO. That point has been made very clear in the discussions that have taken place today.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my entry in the register of interests, particularly my association with the Nuclear Threat Initiative and my work for the European Leadership Network.

I welcome this Statement and I agree that Russia’s aggression and actions are a threat to Ukraine and beyond. I also welcome meaningful and robust dialogue with Russia. Having called for this for years, I am delighted to see that, at last, this “no business as usual” policy is no longer defined as meaning that dialogue is somehow a reward for bad behaviour and not a necessity in the circumstances that we have found ourselves in since 2014.

So, having called for it for years, I am delighted that the United States and Russia are having this extended and robust dialogue. I am delighted that the NATO-Russia Council with convene later this week. I am delighted that the permanent council of the OSCE will meet, and I hope that there will soon be talks in the Normandy format. I am pleased to say all of this.

But I am surprised that a Statement made by the Foreign Secretary on 6 January did not include any reference to the fact that, on Monday 3 January, our Prime Minister, President Putin and the leaders of the other three nuclear-armed states issued a rare but welcome joint statement on preventing nuclear war, with a common commitment to diplomacy and avoiding nuclear catastrophe. We have now committed ourselves to that, and I welcome it very strongly. But can the Minister tell us some concrete steps that our Government plan to take to invigorate efforts to avoid the risk of nuclear conflict, as a consequence of that commitment which we have now made?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, first of all, I agree with the noble Lord. That statement, which was made at the start of this year by the five countries concerned, was important and welcome and of course in itself represents a step forward.

The underlying purpose of such statements, and the discussions that are currently taking place on de-escalation, is the importance and the central pivot of diplomacy. We cannot at any time stop discussions, even with our greatest foes, if I can put it that way. Discussion is important. Whether it is done through the meetings that are taking place this week or on other challenges and disagreements that we have, including those with Russia, we must continue to engage directly and bilaterally. On the broader point, the UK has of course been at the centre of this. Indeed, on Ukraine specifically, my right honourable is certainly seeking to visit Kiev in the very near future.

Russia: Gas Supplies

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 10th November 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on both those fronts I totally agree with the noble Lord. I agree with his assessment that the issue of Nord Stream 2 is having a destabilising effect across Europe—we have repeatedly been consistent in expressing our concerns in that regard—and about the importance of NATO and of NATO Ministers meeting. A NATO meeting is scheduled, and I am sure that these issues, particularly with the unravelling of the situation on the Polish border, will be primary in the concerns and discussions that the NATO Ministers have.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, it seems almost certain that reports of build-up along the border are directly related to a year-long increase in the number of violations on both sides of the line of contact of the June 2020 ceasefire agreement. If that is the case, that needs to be engaged with. What diplomatic contribution are our Government making to help to strengthen the ceasefire, either within the OSCE or otherwise multilaterally or bilaterally?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, the noble Lord speaks with a lot of insight and experience. I assure him that, for example, my right honourable friend the Prime Minister engaged directly with President Putin on 25 October, where Ukraine was primary in their discussions. I too, through the workings of the OSCE, an area that I will now be looking after, will ensure that the Minsk accords and agreements, and the principle that was agreed, will be upheld. So on all diplomatic fronts, we are engaging, both bilaterally and through multilateral organisations.

Afghanistan: FCDO Update

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I was appointed Secretary of State for Defence at a very difficult time for our engagement in Afghanistan. I visited Afghanistan numerous times, in horrible circumstances sometimes, and I worked there with people who were devoted to the future of that country, both in our military and our diplomatic and development services. They know that I have the highest regard for all of them, because I told them so in these circumstances where they were doing the job. I shared those dangers with them, and sometimes was criticised for speaking in Parliament in glowing terms about them and what they were doing. I know what the military, the Diplomatic Service and others have done in the past few weeks, but they would think less of me—because I have many friends among them, and I lost friends among them—if I did not hold the Government to account, and those beyond the Government who have gotten them into this situation when it was a choice and not an inevitability.

The question in relation to this Statement is what, exactly, does its last page mean? It talks about using the

“levers at our disposal—political, economic and diplomatic”

to deliver our four strategic objectives, which are very bland in one sense but also very challenging. They are set out in the other part of it. What exactly do we think our options are? We are powerless.

The Taliban have their international recognition; they are strutting the streets of cities in Afghanistan after 20 years of war with the most powerful armies in the world, wearing their uniforms and carrying their kit, flying their aircraft and driving their vehicles. The people of Afghanistan are terrified of them, because many of them have been alive long enough to know when they last ruled that country, and they know what they are capable of. They are masters of public relations and have given us the impression that we can engage with them and somehow, with options, lever them into being a civilised Government. That is what we are saying that we are doing, but we cannot do it—and we certainly cannot unless our Ministers can come to the Dispatch Box and tell us what those levers are, how they think they will deploy them and why we as the Parliament to which they are accountable should support them to do it.

The first question is not, “What is the one lever that they provide to us?”, which is their desire for recognition, but what levers do we actually control and which they do not pull, to get them not to deliver the sort of horrible, terrible, oppressive and dangerous Government that they were once before? Secondly, we have just had an integrated review in which the Government told us—and it should have terrified us—that their assessment was that we were going to suffer a successful CBRN terrorist attack by 2030 on these islands. Can we be assured that the Government are recalibrating that, because the situation is now much worse?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, simply put, yes, of course there are levers at our disposal, and I have already alluded to a number of them. “Diplomatic” means how we work together with our key partners, such as the United States and others on the Security Council, but also with other key countries that have influence over what will prevail in Afghanistan, which is in a particularly precarious economic situation. The challenges in that country on humanitarian issues is clear.

In that regard, let me assure the noble Lord and all noble Lords that we have the levers of diplomacy by working with partners, including the likes of Russia and China, which will have influence, and the likes of Pakistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Turkmenistan, which are near neighbours. Those are important relationships, which we are invested in. As I already said, I have met directly Foreign Ministers across those countries and am engaging directly with them. It is not just about our ask of them, including on the issue of safe passage for those who get to a border; it is also about recognising that, to build relationships, you have to invest in the. That means ensuring that we stand up support for the refugee crisis that they may face on their own borders, and we are doing just that.

In terms of the Taliban specifically, the support of UN agencies is needed. In my discussions with UNICEF, in particular, and other agencies, we have got a sense that some agencies have increased their footprint on the ground within Afghanistan, and therefore we will be working with international partners, particularly UN agencies, to ensure that we continue to support humanitarian efforts not through the Taliban structures but directly through the agencies which are still operating across Afghanistan.

There are other levers about connectivity. I alluded earlier to the fact that we saw the first flight into Kabul. We are also hearing through our channels on the ground and international agencies that certain airports, such as those in Jalalabad and Mazar-i-Sharif, are being perceived as areas which we can look at not just to provide air routes but to deliver humanitarian aid for other parts of the country.

The noble Lord has wide experience, which I fully acknowledge. I can say at the Dispatch Box that of course we are very cognisant that security is important. The decision was made to withdraw NATO forces, but we recognise that we need to prevent terrorism. The UK Security Council resolution was an important fourth element on counterterrorism. I assure him that we are working through all channels and reassessing our capabilities to ensure that we mitigate against threats and future attacks against this country and any of our partners. It requires a big international effort.

I come back to the point that the noble Lord raised about the internal situation with the Taliban. Some would argue that the Taliban is a different Taliban. The jury is out. My view is clear: it is the same Taliban that was there before. However, what has changed, and where we have a glimmer of hope and opportunity, is that the 20 years of investment, which the noble Baroness, Lady Smith, alluded to on the previous Statement, have produced some great gains. I know a lot of the people we have worked with and the phenomenal women leaders who have emerged. They also provide great hope. Through our efforts and those of our international partners, I can now talk about some of them, such as Shukria Barakzai. More recently, I was pleased to see—in an extremely challenging situation—the likes of Fawzia Koofi, who is known to many people across both Houses. It was heartening to see her still very determined to play her part, albeit that for now she has left Afghanistan. We must see how we can sustain international dialogue and provide hope for people who are working for the future of Afghanistan, including those within Afghanistan. There are lots of areas that we still need to develop. I do not shy away from the challenge in front of us, but we will continue to stand with the people of Afghanistan.

Afghanistan: Women and Girls

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 7th September 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we are focused very much on the priority of those who work directly with us. Of course, there are people within Afghanistan who are British nationals or are their dependants and those special cases—and that is where the Government’s priority is.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, on specific actions, on 17 August, Gender Action for Peace and Security wrote to Boris Johnson and to senior members of the Cabinet about the imminent danger and serious risk of violence that Afghan women are facing, especially those who, at our urging, engaged in peace processes or in journalism or delivered programmes to meet women’s needs. I am sure that the Minister is aware of that letter—in fact, I know that he is—and he almost certainly agrees with the actions that it urges on the Government. Which of those actions have been advanced in the three weeks since it was received?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I assure the noble Lord that we are working on the specifics of what was proposed, and from other groups as well. I know the organisation very well, and in coming weeks I shall certainly look to meet colleagues in the organisation directly to discuss actions further.

Colombia: Human Rights

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 12th July 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made as to whether the reported killings of civilian protestors in Colombia has put the government of that country in breach of its commitments to respect human rights and democratic principles, as set out in the UK–Andean Countries Trade Agreement of 15 May 2019.

[The Minister of State, Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office (Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon) (Con) [V]]

My Lords, the United Kingdom remains concerned about reports of human rights violations in Colombia and we have raised our concerns with the relevant state actors since the protests began. We welcome the Colombian Government’s commitment to transparent investigations into allegations of excessive force and to take appropriate action against those responsible. The British Government attach real importance to the principles underpinning the UK-Andean Countries Trade Agreement and expect our partners to do the same.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

I thank the Minister for his reply. The UK’s 2019 continuity trade agreement with Colombia commits the UK Government to respect human rights and democratic principles. The violence towards and killings of civilian protesters committed by the Colombian security forces were not only totally unacceptable but in violation of that trade agreement. On 17 January, the Foreign Secretary told “The Andrew Marr Show” that

“we shouldn’t be engaged in free-trade negotiations with countries abusing human rights”.

What, if anything, will the Government do to hold the Colombian Government to their trade agreement commitments, if their investigations show what is obvious to everyone?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, I agree with the noble Lord that it is important that we hold countries to their human rights commitments. The actual trade agreement is, of course, yet to be ratified by Colombia. Nevertheless, through the direct engagement of both our embassy and my colleague, Minister Morton, who is responsible for our relations with Colombia, we have spoken directly with the Colombian authorities, which are now pursuing a full range of investigations into alleged misconduct by the police. We welcome those steps that are being taken to strengthen justice and accountability.

Arctic: Security and Co-operation

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 28th June 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con) [V]]

My Lords, my noble friend is quite right that we have seen increased levels of activity, and it is right that we work with key partners to ensure that a peaceful, stable and well-governed Arctic underpins all our policy. That is a priority for the UK Government, and we support the legal frameworks in the Arctic and the Arctic Council. I assure my noble friend that we are working with NATO and other partners to respond to events in the Arctic, as it is in everyone’s interest to keep the Arctic peaceful and co-operative. Of course, recent events have demonstrated the need to stand up for the laws underpinned by UNCLOS.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, few institutions exist to manage the new security risks of civilian and military activity in the Arctic. The Arctic Council and other effective forums either forbid or do not touch on security, and since 2014 the Arctic Security Forces Roundtable has excluded Russia. Major Arctic players are nuclear powers and adversaries, with multiple facilities and nuclear armaments there. Russian and European Governments have called for the creation of a new dialogue among Defence Ministers, and Presidents Putin and Biden discussed how they can ensure that the Arctic remains a region of co-operation, not conflict. Where do our Government stand on the need for inclusive discussions on security, and what are we doing, if anything, to advance that?

United States: Diplomatic Relations

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 1st March 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, there is little in what the noble Lord has said that I disagree with. As ever, he provides valuable insights into our relationship with the US and other partners.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in 2017, the then Vice-President Biden declared that he and President Obama believed that deterrence of a nuclear attack should be the sole purpose of the US nuclear arsenal. As a presidential candidate, he pledged work to put that belief into practice in consultation with allies. This language was adopted in the Democratic Party’s official 2020 platform. I understand that consultations with the UK have begun. What is the Government’s position on the US nuclear declaratory formulation that the sole purpose of nuclear weapons is to deter nuclear abuse against it or its allies?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, we welcome the re-engagement of the US, in particular on its obligations through NATO. That will form the basis of how the United States continues to strengthen defence alliances with the United Kingdom and others in the defence of not just the interests of the United States but those of its allies.

In paying tribute to the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, as a historian, I remind noble Lords that we come together on the eve of the famous speech given 75 years ago in 1946 by Winston Churchill when he defined what the relationship was all about. He said that

“in the days to come the British and American peoples will, for their own safety and for the good of all, walk together side by side in majesty, in justice and in peace.”

Long may that last.

Myanmar

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 11th February 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

I cannot state firmly what the chances are, but I assure the noble Lord that we are doing all we can to ensure the release of Aung San Suu Kyi and the return of the democratically elected Government.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, it is a credible inference that, in seizing power, General Min Aung Hlaing and the military were partly motivated by the desire to protect themselves and their families from investigation of their corrupt and lucrative financial deals and economic holdings by a strengthened democratic Government. It is certain that they have managed to squirrel away stolen assets in this country, the British Overseas Territories and other democratic countries. Following on from my noble friend Lord Triesman’s question, and recognising the limitations that the Minister is under, beyond sanctions, do the Government have the power and intent to trace, seize and freeze these assets so that, in due course, they can be returned to their rightful owners: the Myanmar people?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will be aware, the imposition of sanctions means that any accounts held or travel undertaken is limited, so there are specific powers in the sanctions regime.

Foreign Policy: UK-EU Dialogue

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 14th January 2021 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, on the practical terms that the noble Baroness mentioned, she will be aware that we are working closely with EU partners and other allies on issues of sanctions and indeed issues relating to Hong Kong. The EU-UK Trade and Cooperation Agreement affirms our mutual commitment to democratic principles, the rule of law and human rights. As the noble Baroness will be aware, we are already working closely on many important issues—including issues of human rights, which are part of my portfolio—both bilaterally and through multilateral organisations.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, an unstable and unruly world needs strong alliances between countries seeking international stability and co-operation rather than competition. The Biden Administration will expect the UK not to behave in a way that weakens the EU. As all but six members of the EU are members of NATO, we have already integrated sufficient elements of our defence. Does the Minister agree that formal arrangements of co-operation between us on security and foreign policy are inevitable? He certainly did so in October 2019, when he strongly supported deep co-operation as set out in the revised UK-EU political declaration.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, as the noble Lord will know from his own experience as a Minister and as a Defence Secretary, and as he rightly articulated, NATO is the cornerstone of our relationship on the defence of Europe and the democratic values that we stand for. We remain committed to and at the centre of that NATO alliance, working with EU colleagues as well as other nations, most notably the United States. I reiterate our commitment to co-operation with our EU allies and others on important issues that currently confront the world.

Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 4th November 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lord, on my noble friend’s second point, we are acting in conjunction with our E3 allies to ensure that the JCPOA remains alive and on the table. It prevents Iran becoming a nuclear state, which must be a priority.

My noble friend raises concerns about the IRGC. We share them, particularly regarding Nazanin Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s case and the challenge that she has been presented with the IRGC. On the efforts that we are making, we continue to work with our US allies and E3 partners to ensure that the current ban that was lifted on arm sales to Iran can also reach a conclusion that satisfies our allies across Europe and in the US.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, in April 2019, the Government granted diplomatic protection status to Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe—a very welcome signal that the UK treats the case no longer as a consular matter but as a formal legal dispute between Britain and Iran. Has that change of status been reflected in any change in the Government’s approach to this matter? What difference has it made, if any?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, exercising diplomatic protection to Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe’s case formally raised it to the level of a state issue. We continue to take further action where we judge that it will help to secure her full and permanent release. For the time being, we welcome the fact that she has been allowed to return home and has not been taken to prison.

Iran: UN Arms Embargo

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 8th October 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I share with my noble friend the intention to stop the destabilising influence of Iran. The United Kingdom abstained because the resolution could not attract the support of the council, and therefore did not represent a basis for achieving consensus. He asked about the way forward. We are addressing systematic Iranian non-compliance. Iran must engage seriously with our concerns, and I know that my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary has asked the High Representative of the EU, Josep Borrell, to convene a ministerial joint commission as soon as possible. On what else the UK is doing, we sought to facilitate dialogue between the two positions to achieve a desired outcome. However, as I said earlier, sanctions remain, both from the EU and through the UN ballistic restrictions on Iran.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, I declare my registered interest as chair of the European Leadership Network. This is all about the JCPOA and the US Administration’s desire to destroy it, or to make it difficult for a Biden Administration to recant it. The Minister knows of my support for the Government’s policy on the JCPOA: Iran not having a nuclear weapon is a priority for our security. Does the Minister agree that however we may otherwise support arms embargo sanctions on Iran—which we do—we cannot fight to keep the JCPOA alive and at the same time impose an arms embargo relating to the treaty itself?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon (Con)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord for his support. While the JCPOA is far from perfect, it remains the only agreement on the table. We continue to press with our E3 partners on this issue to ensure that it is sustained, to prevent Iran becoming a nuclear state in any sense. We also remain committed to Resolutions 2216 and 1701 of the Security Council, which prevent further exporting of arms, as well as the other sanctions from the EU and on ballistics that I have already alluded to.

Korea

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 30th June 2020 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, the sanctions are not targeted against the North Korean people, and we will continue to support delivery of humanitarian aid to the most vulnerable in that country. Denuclearisation will assist in that respect.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab) [V]]

My Lords, what is the Government’s assessment of the likely success of the US negotiation strategy of maximum pressure based on “denuclearise first, reward later”, including the effectiveness of the UN sanctions and their impact on North Korea’s humanitarian crisis?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I believe that I have partly answered the question put by the noble Lord already. On the specific issue of the US sanctions, the US is demonstrating patience and has adopted a sense of willingness in its approach, although success is not guaranteed. Enforcing sanctions which have been agreed unanimously in the UN Security Council in response to North Korea’s nuclear ballistic missile testing does help to create the conditions to incentivise change on the part of North Korea, while of course keeping the humanitarian corridor open.

Iran and Gulf Security

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 13th May 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

What was important in the Question from the noble Lord, Lord West, was that Iran stopped further development of its nuclear programme. The letter from President Rouhani made clear their intent that after 60 days they would restart their efforts in that regard. We need to ensure that we avert that threat, and we continue to work to keep the JCPOA alive. This was not a perfect deal; as I have said before, issues around ballistic missiles were not covered. However, it is the best deal we have, it has kept the peace, and it has kept Iran from progressing on its path to obtaining a nuclear weapon. That is why the United Kingdom, along with other international partners, remains committed to it.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, the principal objective has to be to stop Iran getting a nuclear capability, and we were in that place with the deal, as the noble Lord rightly says. So the only way of keeping the Iranians in the deal is to get the special purpose vehicle and the financial scheme to work—but they are not working. How do the Government and their European allies intend to ensure that this contribution to making the deal continue works?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The short answer to why the vehicle is not working is that it is not yet operational. However, we are working with our European partners to ensure that all elements continue to function, including regulatory compliance, on the Iranian as well as the European side. We are focused on getting that SPV up and running.

Intermediate-range Nuclear Forces Treaty

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 5th February 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My noble friend speaks with great insight on these matters and I agree with him. Since October, there has been some hope of notice being given. The United States has shown that it acted in line with its obligations—it continued to abide by the treaty—and it has to be made absolutely clear that it is because of Russian actions that we have reached this point. However, there remains a window of opportunity. In line with the details of that treaty, there remains a six-month window, during which there is an opportunity for Russia to step up to the mark and fulfil its obligations. However, I agree with my noble friend, bearing in mind that the first occasion on which its non-compliance was brought to light was in 2014 and it took another three years before there was even a basic acknowledgement by the Russians that these weapons existed. The challenge remains real and the UK supports the United States’ actions.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, Europe has been the greatest beneficiary of this treaty since 1987. With the suspension of compliance by both the United States and Russia, Europe is now much less secure, and it will continue to be while that compliance is suspended. On the date in December when the United States gave Russia notice of its intention, there was a NATO Foreign Ministers’ meeting in Brussels. The statement from that meeting included the following paragraph:

“Allies are firmly committed to the preservation of effective international arms control, disarmament and non-proliferation. Therefore, we will continue to uphold, support, and further strengthen arms control, disarmament and non-proliferation, as a key element of Euro-Atlantic security”.


How does suspending compliance with a treaty of this nature fit with that commitment, and what steps will our Government take to live up to it? What are we going to do now to “further strengthen arms control” in the light of the deterioration that the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, has so clearly described? We are heading for strategic problems with the new START because it is an Obama treaty and anything with Obama’s name on it is detested by the current President of the United States.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

The noble Lord raises an important point about NATO’s previous statement. I specifically draw his attention to NATO’s statement of 1 February 2019 on this very issue. It said:

“NATO continues to closely review the security implication of Russian intermediate-range missiles and will continue to take steps necessary to ensure the credibility and effectiveness of the Alliance’s overall deterrence and defence posture”.


The NATO alliance is important, and we and all NATO partners, including the United States, are committed to it. The noble Lord will know that in April this year the next meeting of NATO will be hosted by Secretary of State Pompeo of the United States. The implication is that non-compliance and compliance have to be a two-way process. However, if from 2014 there is a clearly identified situation in which one side does not abide by the rules and does not comply, it is a tall order to expect the other side to comply. As I said, there is an opportunity for Russia to step up to the mark, and I am sure we hope that it will. However, based on experience, it might be an opportunity that is not taken up.

Yemen

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 11th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

Taking the noble Baroness’s final question, any support we provide, including support to the Saudis and Emiratis extended by the United Kingdom, is kept under review. Of course, she will also be aware that the litmus test remains that any action must be in line with international humanitarian law.

On the specific issue of whether my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is aware—of course, he is central. As I have already said, he has been talking to his counterparts in both the UAE and Saudi Arabia. I go back to the point raised in the Statement that the UN has already assessed that an attack on Hodeidah could displace up to 350,000 people and leave hundreds of thousands of Yemenis without basic requirements such as food and healthcare.

The noble Baroness will also be aware that the United Kingdom Government stand with the Yemeni people. We have been at the forefront of providing support. In April we also announced a further £170 million in support for essential healthcare and other requirements. I stress, as all noble Lords are aware, that Hodeidah is the gateway to providing much of the relief and humanitarian assistance that is required. It is the responsibility of both sides to ensure that that access continues. The Houthis, who currently control the port, are not without fault. They caused the crisis in the first instance by displacing the Government, and more recently have continued to exercise blockages of the port and have stopped certain shipments from taking place. Therefore, we implore all sides to ensure that a political settlement can prevail.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister not only for repeating the Answer to the Question but for the tone and the content of the Answer. Through him I also thank his right honourable friend Alistair Burt, the Minister of State for the Middle East and North Africa, for the “Dear Colleague” letter that we all received dated 8 June. It is very helpful and contains in the third-to-last paragraph some awful statistics about the scale of the humanitarian crisis in the Yemen, including the fact that more than 50% of the population of Yemen—17.8 million people —do not have reliable access to food and 8.4 million people face extreme food shortages. Is it not the case that the only traffic that passes through the port of Hodeidah at the moment is humanitarian aid—nothing else? Does the Minister agree that the use of starvation as a weapon of war is in breach of international humanitarian law? Would not an attack on this port be strong evidence of a breach of humanitarian law? If any UK-manufactured weapons and planes that we had sold to any member of the coalition were used in such an attack, how could we justify continuing to sell weapons to them?

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I thank the noble Lord for his remarks, and I will of course convey to my right honourable friend the comments about his constructive letter. The noble Lord raised the dire humanitarian situation prevailing in Yemen. As I said in response to an earlier question, that is why we have been at the forefront of providing support. I share his concern, as do the UK Government, about the importance of keeping open Hodeidah port as a lifeline. Over the weekend, my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary called once again for no action to be taken on Hodeidah port in order to keep open that vital channel. But let us put this in context. As I said earlier, the port is controlled by Houthi rebels, who at Hodeidah and elsewhere—including, for example, in Aden—have not missed an opportunity to intimidate UN ships. They have also used schools, hospitals and children as part of their activities in Yemen.

To answer the noble Lord’s specific question about weapons, I revert to what I said: we keep the situation under constant review and will ensure that we apply the litmus test that there are no serious violations of international humanitarian law. That point has been made to the Emiratis and the Saudis. As I am sure the noble Lord is aware, there was a judicial review of this situation. The judgment concluded that our risk-based assessments had,

“all the hallmarks of a rigorous and robust, multi-layered process of analysis carried out by numerous expert Government and military personnel, upon which the Secretary of State”—

this referred to the Secretary of State for International Trade—

“could properly rely”.

In other words, our measures were robust. However, the noble Lord raises important points about the use of such weapons. I assure him that, not just in this conflict but in conflicts elsewhere in the world, we keep the situation firmly under review.

Iran Nuclear Deal

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Wednesday 9th May 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I share the noble Lord’s concerns. I was quite specific on which elements of the deal have worked. I also said that the deal is not the perfect deal. There are limitations on it, some of which have been highlighted by the US in stating its reasons for withdrawing from it. That said, we still believe it to be an important part of ensuring that Iran does not progress down the route of acquiring nuclear weapons.

The noble Lord alluded to Iranian influence in the wider region. Again, we strongly condemn Iran and call on it to pull back. It has shown its hand in places such as Lebanon and Yemen, with support for the Houthis, and it continues to do so in Syria. This is not helping the situation in the wider region. It is destabilising. It is important that Iran recognises that its interventions in other parts of the region are viewed as far from helpful; they are extremely destabilising to the region and to peace generally. I assure all noble Lords that we continue to make this point very strongly to the Iranian authorities, its President and Foreign Minister on all occasions that we have these discussions. Iran has been destabilising in the region. That has to be recognised.

On our continued support, everyone would regret the fact that the Iranian people themselves need support. They have embarked on a difficult journey that is far from complete. It is important that we continue to show our support for them in the hope that we will see the kind of representation we all desire in Iran itself.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for repeating the Statement. I commend the Government for standing four-square behind the JCPOA and I associate myself with the remarks of the noble Lord, Lord Hannay. But with all due respect, businesses that are conducting perfectly legal business with Iran need more than advice. The Foreign Secretary said today in the other place:

“We will do our utmost to protect UK commercial interests”.


On 24 April, in the context of a Private Notice Question asked by the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem, I asked a very specific question about this issue, asking what the Government intended to do in the light of developments at the Bill Foreign Ministers’ meeting to bolster and support our businesses, which were already concerned about the reimposition of US sanctions and secondary sanctions. I was not given an answer, but I was given an assurance that I would be written to. I await that letter; I am content about that. But surely the time has now come for us to tell businesses more than that they should take some legal advice and await further advice. We need to give them some specific indication of the extent to which the Government are willing to go to protect their interests from the devastating effect of these potential sanctions.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

On the noble Lord’s first point, I will ensure that there is a response, although that response no doubt will reflect the decision just taken. As I said earlier, the United States itself has issued specific guidelines in this respect, which we are currently evaluating. What I said about taking immediate legal advice was just that: immediate and initial advice. We will follow this up.

Of course we remain committed. We believe in strengthening trading ties with all countries across the world, but in this case we have continued to encourage commercial ties with Iran to try to build and progress that country to a more progressive future. We will look at this very carefully. Let me assure UK companies that are impacted that we are looking at the situation closely. The advice was issued only yesterday. We want to make sure we are evaluating it fully to ensure that we can subsequently give whatever advice and level of support we can after we have fully considered the implications. This is not just about telling businesses to get legal advice, but the first step must be—and I was in business for 20 years—to talk to your lawyers to make sure what you are doing and currently trading is in the context of international law and adherence to whatever sanctions regime might prevail.

My noble friend earlier raised an important point about the implications of the United States decision for international law. That also has to be evaluated, but let me assure all noble Lords that we are looking at this very carefully. It is a very sensitive issue, but the interests of British companies are going to be protected.

Syria: Humanitarian Situation

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Monday 26th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

I do not agree with my noble friend, for the practical reason that I have already highlighted—that the biggest influence on the Assad regime is that of the Russians. We have been working extensively with other European partners and other allies and directly with the Russians to ensure that we get the ceasefire that is required. It now needs Russia to be true to its word at the Security Council to ensure that we can sustain, retain and ultimately deliver the peace that is required to the conflict. As for the Assad regime itself, we believe that there needs to be a transition to a new Government who can protect the rights of all Syrians, and we will continue to work in Geneva in that respect.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton (Lab)]

My Lords, as previous interventions and the Statement itself have made clear, Russian influence is crucial in this situation. As we await the meeting between our Foreign Secretary and the Russian ambassador, in the meantime what contact are we having at any level with the Russians, or have we nothing to add to the pressure that must be being put on them by our European partners to get them to influence the Assad regime in the way we want? If we do not achieve that—and we cannot subcontract it to anyone else—there is no possibility that the ceasefire will hold.

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

As I have said, the role of the Russians is essential—I agree with the noble Lord—to the ceasefire, which is not even holding, in that it has not started effectively. I am sure that many noble Lords heard as I did on the radio this morning the gentleman who was in the basement and who went out and first described the chilling atmosphere that was very quickly interrupted by bombing and then artillery fire. Clearly, the ceasefire has not happened.

On the noble Lord’s specific question, of course we are working at all levels with Russian officials. Indeed, we work very extensively with them in the UN Security Council, and it was as a result of us working together with our partners in tandem—not by contracting out but by working in unison—that we got the desired result of a unanimous resolution at the Security Council, supported by the Russians.

Defamation Bill

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Tuesday 5th February 2013 Lords Chamber

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, Clause 13 currently enables the court to order the operator of a website to remove defamatory material in circumstances where a claimant successfully brings proceedings against the poster of defamatory material online. In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Browne, raised the question specifically of whether this provision could be extended to cover situations where a claimant successfully brings an action against the publisher of offline material, but a secondary publisher refuses to stop distributing, selling or exhibiting material containing the defamatory statement. Clause 10 would prevent an action for defamation being brought against the secondary publisher if it was reasonably practicable to sue the primary publisher. While in the great majority of cases it is likely that secondary publishers would act responsibly and remove material when requested to do so, we consider it desirable to close any possible loophole. Amendment 22 is intended to capture any situation where the material in question is publicly disseminated by a secondary publisher. I beg to move the amendment.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, for the reasons that the Minister spelt out, I strongly welcome this amendment. I thank the Minister for listening so carefully to the argument put before him in Committee and responding in this way.

Defamation Bill

Debate between Lord Browne of Ladyton and Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon

Thursday 17th January 2013 Grand Committee

[Lord Ahmad of Wimbledon]

My Lords, I will take all three amendments together as they have been grouped. In doing so, I will refer first to Amendments 50B and 50D. They seek to provide that Clause 10 should prevent an action for damages for defamation being brought against a person who was not the author, editor or publisher of the statement complained of unless the court is satisfied that it is not reasonably practicable for an action to be brought against the author, editor or publisher, but should not prevent a court from granting any injunction or order requiring a person to cease publishing a defamatory statement.

As the noble Lord, Lord Browne, indicated, the amendments were originally tabled in Committee in the other place by the honourable Member for Newcastle-under-Lyme. His concern was that circumstances could arise where a claimant who had successfully brought an action against the author of defamatory material on a website was left in the position of being unable to secure removal of the given material. This situation might arise as a result of the fact that an author may not always be in a position to remove material which has been found to be defamatory from a website, and the new defence in Clause 5—together with the more general protection provided to secondary publishers in Clause 10—might prevent the website operator from being required to do so. As the noble Lord acknowledged, it was precisely for this reason that the Government introduced Clause 13 into the Bill on Report in the other place.

In an offline context where a successful action is brought against an author, editor or publisher and a secondary publisher is made aware of the successful action, we believe that in the great majority of cases the secondary publisher would act responsibly and remove the defamatory material from sale.

However, there are issues that still appear pending and this point has been reiterated by my noble friend Lord McNally and made by me as well. We are listening in great detail to the debates and discussions in Committee. As has been illustrated from the Government’s perspective in the other place, appropriate clauses and amendments are being introduced to refine this particular Bill if and when they are needed.

Amendment 50C is identical to the one tabled on Report in the other place. It was said then that it was in part an attempt to codify the defence of innocent dissemination. As the Government explained then, Clause 10 is about jurisdiction. To require the court, as part of an assessment on jurisdiction, to assess the merits of the case before it in the manner proposed would be highly unusual and potentially confusing. Furthermore, it would involve additional evidence and expense, which would be wasted in the event that it was held that it was reasonably practicable for the claimant to pursue the primary publisher. Such arguments are properly pursued once it is established that the court indeed has jurisdiction. Subsection (1)(c) would also put the onus on the claimant to show what was in the knowledge of the secondary publisher, which, as well as being practically very difficult, would be a significant shift in the current law.

The noble Lord, Lord Browne, drew to the Committee’s attention the fact that there is a debate over the terms of Section 1 of the 1996 Act—the noble Lord, Lord Lester, referred to this as well—and how that compares to the common-law defence. A question was raised about the Government’s position. The Government believe that it is preferable to adopt the approach in Clause 10 of directing claimants towards those who are actually responsible for defamatory material. This reflects the approach that we have taken elsewhere in the Bill. In the unlikely event that it is not reasonably practicable to sue the author, editor or publisher, Clause 10 allows a claimant to bring an action against a secondary publisher, such as a bookseller. However, nothing in the clause would then prevent that bookseller from deploying any defences available to him them.

We believe that this approach strikes a fair balance that provides substantial protection for secondary publishers while not denying claimants a means of redress where this is deemed appropriate. I hope that on that basis of these explanations, the noble Lord will agree to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Browne of Ladyton]

My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Lester of Herne Hill, for his intervention and for indicating the value of at least one of my amendments in a broader, international sense. I think that that will help to concentrate our minds on the value of looking with some care at the provisions of Clause 10. I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Mawhinney, for his reminder that we should be seeking a direction of travel away from what may inadvertently have been created by the effect of Section 1 of the 1996 Act on the common-law defence that existed.

I am grateful, too, to the Minister, although I have to say that I am disappointed in his articulation of the Government’s position. There is a lack of courage on their part if, even in these circumstances where we are all agreed on the direction of travel, they are not willing to say that the law in relation to secondary publishers is moving in the direction of undermining the chilling effect of the behaviour of lawyers, who often act for very wealthy clients, intimidating small people from pursuing business because to some degree it involves an expression of free speech.

The appropriate response to this short debate is to indicate to the Minister that I will go away and think about this again. With regard to the first of our amendments, Amendment 50B, after this debate I am minded to consider whether Section 13 should be broader in scope. That may be the answer to the problem and a more appropriate way of dealing with it—not to restrict it only to secondary publishers and the web but to seek that it be broader in scope. That might be a simpler way of addressing at least part of the problem.

On the pre-1996 common-law position being better and less chilling than the present situation, even when improved by Clause 10, I am not sure that I will abandon my attempt to persuade the Government that something must be done. I now have the difficult job of solving how one can do that without challenging the court to deal with jurisdiction and the substance of the case at the same time. My limited experience of practising before the courts—limited by being elected to the House of Commons, although it was 20 years’ experience—suggested that once one started to make arguments about preliminary issues, one often got far into the substance of the case to do. In making arguments before the court, it was quite difficult to do the sort of thing that we suggest is possible here, by keeping these two issues separate. Apart from anything else, you often do not understand the arguments until you understand the facts and where the credible argument likely lies in a set of circumstances well enough. Anyway, never mind that.

I will go away and think about this again. We may have room for some progress in extending the scope of Clause 13. I am not sure that I will ever persuade the Government to move beyond, with all due respect, a slightly timid position on innocent dissemination, but we may have to return to this issue on Report. In the mean time, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.