Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

2nd reading (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 20th February 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

My Lords, I welcome the Bill generally. As the Minister stated when she moved the Second Reading, the Government have said that, by 2050, nearly all cars and vans should be zero-emission vehicles. As other noble Lords have said, that is not a particularly stretching target compared to the ambitions that are being laid down by many other countries, but to reach even this goal we will need major improvements in both the availability and reliability of electric charging points. I will concentrate on Part 2 and will essentially try to be practical in looking at what is happening around us and fairly close to us.

While the Bill starts to address the key risks and issues in rolling out electric charging points, it falls short on two fronts. First, it does not give the Secretary of State the power to require electric charging points to be installed at workplace car parks or residential developments, or in other large public locations. Secondly, it does not give the Secretary of State the power to require a minimum standard of reliability. This has not been picked up greatly in the debate so far; at the moment we have a system which is in many respects quite unreliable. People who use these cars often find that the connections do not function. It is quite disastrous if you are out on the road and get to a charge point but then find that it does not work. We need to address this point much more closely to ensure that effective infrastructure is rolled out.

It might seem a good idea for the Bill to give the Secretary of State the power to require petrol forecourts to install charging points, but the average person will not want to leave their car charging at a forecourt for long periods; they will want to charge it at home. The Bill should go much further than just forecourts and allow the Government to require charge points to be installed at public places such as shopping centres, leisure centres, stadiums and airports. There are massive parking areas at airports with very few facilities, despite all the pollution that we get there. When my noble friend Lord Adonis was in power, we were suggesting bringing that to a halt if there is a problem with pollution at airports. However, very little charging is planned for those areas and little encouragement is being given to people to install it. We should extend charge points to train stations, local golf clubs and National Trust centres, where, in some cases, hundreds of cars are parked. There are no such facilities in those places and, from reading the Bill, there is no indication that this has even crossed the Government’s mind.

Then we come to where 98% of people are located—domestic residences, with many people living in flats. What is in the Bill to assist people to charge their cars at blocks of flats and residential developments, as well as at large office car parks, where vehicles are parked for a lot of time? Electric charging points are needed there. Before making it a mandatory requirement, the Bill should lay the groundwork for incentives to be introduced in many of these areas so that people can look positively at effecting changes. For example, there could be lower council tax rates for premises that provide electric charging infrastructure. Have the Government looked at any new incentives that they might offer to people who change their infrastructure? I would like a response from the Minister on the possibility of council tax being one area that could be reviewed.

Speaking personally, I have been trying for two years to persuade the management board of the private estate where I live to introduce electric charging points. We are still talking about it but are no further forward. I live in a flat but I also have a garage, which is situated well away from the flat. We have a whole battery of garages with no electricity in them. Cars are parked all over the place and nobody uses the garages. If only the garages had electricity, people would put their cars in them to charge them and we would have a better life all round because the cars would not block the roads. It would be a double-win situation, but trying to get people to move on that is extraordinarily difficult.

The Bill needs to be strengthened to a degree to encourage local authorities, groups of individuals and landlords to look for ways in which they can start working together and make early changes. Achieving win-win situations is possible if we approach this matter with an open mind. As I said, it is essential to install charging points where people live and work, and a start needs to be made on that. We need to go way beyond just the forecourts mentioned in the Bill.

If we look at the size and scale of the electric charging infrastructure being rolled out in countries such as China, we see that our economy is at great risk of falling way behind. If we are to be at all competitive, we need to scale up much faster and require many more charging points and much more infrastructure than we are currently planning.

Earlier, I mentioned reliability. The Bill makes reference to the 11,500 charging points around the UK, but nobody has referred to how many of them actually work. What data do we keep on which of them do or do not work? Although it is good to see that, through the Bill, the Secretary of State would be given powers to require data on charging points in the future, it appears that it does not enable the Secretary of State to require a minimum standard of performance from them. Why not? If we look at similar utilities—such as water and electricity—for households and businesses, we find regulations on minimum levels of reliability. It is the same for telephones: obligations are placed on utility providers to ensure that they provide a reliable service to the public.

Running out of power in an electric vehicle is not only a major inconvenience; it could damage a business and its prospects, particularly if it relies on only electric vehicles for deliveries. What a problem it is to find a charging point for your delivery van, but find that it does not work because minimum standards have not been required and are not being met in any way. The charging point can be left unrepaired for considerable periods of time—as is the case with many of them, which are not immediately righted when they break down. We need to have a look at this and see whether we can find ways to avoid the frustrations that people currently encounter when they find so much unreliability in the existing network.

I ask the Minister whether the Government have been thinking about this and what ideas they have in mind for regulation. Is there any possibility of bringing something on standards into the Bill when we come to debate it in Committee? I look forward to the answers to the questions I have posed.

Automated and Electric Vehicles Bill

Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe Excerpts

Report stage (Hansard): House of Lords
Tuesday 5th June 2018 Lords Chamber

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I agree with the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, that a change to the title would be helpful, and I accept her point that it is not something we are going to divide the House on.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe (Lab)]

Shame!

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

“Shame,” somebody said. The hydrogen compatibility amendments that the Minister has brought forward are very welcome. She illustrated their value by talking about what the Government are doing in investment in hydrogen. I cannot reasonably expect an answer now, but I wonder whether the Government have a fuller programme than the one she describes because, as far as I could understand from what she was saying, she was talking about the vehicle end of that, whereas I feel that with such a new technology some knowledge of government investment in the total hydrogen picture—the means of production, what the economics look like and so on—would be extremely valuable. If she is able to put that together in an interesting letter for all of us who have been involved in this debate, I would be very grateful.

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[Baroness Sugg]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baronesses, Lady Randerson and Lady Worthington, for raising amendments for consideration around housing issues and future-proofing new homes and developments. I entirely agree that if we are to move to zero-emission vehicles, as we all wish to do, we need to make sure that we have the correct infrastructure in housing and non-residential developments.

On Amendment 18 and the removal of public charge points, I hope that I will be able to provide reassurance on this matter. Where charge points are installed on local highways or land owned by local authorities, obviously local authorities already have the ability to ensure the installation of charge points, or prohibit their removal in line with any contracts they have in place. Where charge points are installed with public-funded grants to local authorities, as all public-funded charge points currently are, local authorities will have contractual arrangements in place regarding the charge points.

On the issue of planning permission, where a charge point is installed as a condition of a grant of planning permission, which could be determined in accordance with a particular policy in a statutory plan, whether it can be removed will depend on the specific conditions of the grant of planning permission as set out by the local authority itself. The developer would therefore have to apply to the local planning authority to have that condition lifted if it wanted to remove the charge point. The planning authority has the opportunity to consider the merits of agreeing to lift the condition, but we expect that it would not, and it would be difficult for these charge points to be removed.

On Amendment 19 and the issue of charging infrastructure rights and wayleave agreements, I said in Committee that I would discuss this further with other relevant departments, which I have done. Wayleave agreements are sometimes required for rapid charge point installations if cables need to be laid across third-party land for a new connection to the grid or to upgrade the grid. Currently, the wayleave agreement is voluntary for the third party who own the land and they do not have an obligation to accept the wayleave.

As I mentioned in Committee, in cases where an agreement for a wayleave cannot be reached between the installer of electricity equipment and the landowner, we have powers under the Electricity Act 1989 which give the installer statutory powers upon which it can call if no alternative solution can be found, such as another route for the cable. This means that a statutory application can be lodged with the Secretary of State for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy to award the installer a necessary wayleave as long as it can prove why it is necessary and expedient. This process also allows the landowner to show how the granting of a wayleave will impact on their use and enjoyment of the land. This is a different situation from that of telecom lines, which, as the noble Baroness said, following the Digital Economy Act 2017 are now considered to be critical national infrastructure. There was widespread evidence of problems there which did not have the same resolution mechanism.

Therefore, although I appreciate the noble Baroness’s intentions, as she acknowledges, there is little evidence at the moment that the existing statutory powers are insufficient. Since Committee, we have discussed this issue with the trade body for the distribution network operators, the Energy Networks Association, which is of the view that the existing legislation is well established and effective, especially given the resolution mechanism.

We continue to have concerns that the amendment does not allow for the private rights of the owner of any third-party land to be taken into account or for any potential environmental effects to be considered. Because private land access rights are involved, we want to seek more evidence and consult a wide range of stakeholders before taking that any further.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

Can the Minister expand a little further on that? Are the Government positively taking action, or are they waiting for a groundswell of demand before they will take action?

[Baroness Sugg]

Is the noble Lord referring to the granting of wayleaves? We do not think that there is a problem at the moment. After conversations that we have had, we think that wayleaves are granted. They are either resolved between the landowner and the installer or, as I said, there is a resolution mechanism. We have heard of one case that was not able to be sufficiently resolved. Obviously, in those circumstances there will be frustration on the part of one or more parties. However, such cases are invariably resolved using the existing regulations or alternative engineering options, so we do not think that there is a need to take a power on this at the moment.

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[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, I rise to express my full support for the contribution just made by the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington. I regret that I was unable to be here for Committee last week, but I did speak at Second Reading and gave a list of locations which I believe would be suitable for consideration for introducing electric charging points. I understand that, interestingly, today the Cabinet is taking a decision about Heathrow. Would not life have been quite different if in 2009, when the then Labour Government took the decision to consider a third runway, a similar decision had been made that 25% of the parking at Heathrow would be for electric cars, with charging points? What clean air we would now have around the airport if people were required to use electric cars to go there rather than the diesel and petrol vehicles that they have been using over the past eight years. It would be an entirely different environment, and we are still stuck with the problem of whether to go ahead with the expansion. We could also do this at Gatwick and indeed all over the place, in many locations with great big car parks.

I share the view that this is a very modest piece of legislation, and this is one area where we should see amendments from the Government in order to see some changes coming through around the country. So I am very pleased to speak strongly in support of this amendment.

[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I also will add my support for this amendment, which is eminently sensible. Let us think about where we find electric charging points now. We find them at motorway services, in the car park adjacent to the refuelling area, and in the occasional car park. They are often found in big supermarket car parks.

The Government need to follow the lead taken so far by those far-sighted organisations that thought that charging points would be an asset to their business, as well as open the eyes of the car parking industry to encourage it to have charging points. The industry can easily integrate them into its general business model. I recall going to a car park in France that had a couple of charging points. The pricing structure made it extremely unattractive to linger on that charging spot for longer than was needed. Therefore, you were not using a space that other people might want to use; you were utilising it and attracting new customers. I strongly urge the Minister to look at this point. It is essential that the Government embrace every possible opportunity to lead people into a new mindset where charging points are an asset to a business, and do not leave it entirely up to the market. We will not overcome this issue unless the Government take a strong lead, and this is a simple way in which the Government can do that.

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[Lord Young of Cookham]

Many people already charge at home. If one looks around the streets just a stone’s throw from the Palace of Westminster one can see an increasing number of charge points, where people who do not have access to home charging can recharge their vehicle. You can recharge your vehicle in the car park at the other end of the building.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

Can the Minister say why the mayors are calling for the change in the amendment? They are on the spot in the cities around the country and know the difficulties; they are asking for the change. Why are we refusing it?

[Lord Young of Cookham]

The next group of amendments is indeed about the powers that the mayors are seeking, but the Government’s proposal is that those powers should be constrained within the broad terms of the Bill and not extended. We will explain that when we reach the next set of amendments—if we ever get there.

I turn to Amendment 27 in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe. As stated in Clause 16 and detailed in the policy scoping notes, any regulations brought forward would be informed by consultation with industry, including fuel retailers, motorway service area operators, EV infrastructure providers and operators, and EV manufacturers and drivers. Regulations would need to take into careful consideration the commercial and operational impacts on the organisations that would be directly impacted. For example, detailed regulations would need to take account of: an assessment of current and planned provision at the locations in question; an understanding of the underlying fuel retail and motorway service businesses and the needs of users; and an understanding of the factors which will make particular sites more or less suited to installation and operation of EV infrastructure. In addition, Clause 15 already provides the Secretary of State with powers to create exceptions from any requirement imposed by regulations, which could be used where an expansion of land was required or other disproportionate costs were transferred to retailers and operators.

In relation to the noble Lord’s Amendment 42, consultation would also help inform the Government of the time it would take industry to be compliant with any requirements, and dates for compliance can be written into regulations if necessary. It will be important to address the intention behind the noble Lord’s two amendments as we bring forward regulations. Although we do not believe these amendments are needed, we appreciate his concern that industry must have sufficient time to prepare for any requirements, and we can commit today that where proposals would impose substantial requirements on operators of public charge points, large fuel retailers or service operators, the Government will allow at least six months between the commencement of consultation on the proposals and the coming into force of the relevant provisions of any consequent regulations brought forward under Part 2 of the Bill.

Following Committee, and the report of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, we have considered whether there is anything further we can do to strengthen our commitment to ensuring that large fuel retailers and motorway service areas are aware of regulations in good time before they are brought forward. My noble friend has tabled government Amendments 44 to 46 to ensure that each time the definitions for “large fuel retailer” and “service area operator” are changed, they are subject to the affirmative procedure to ensure that extra parliamentary scrutiny is afforded to these changes.

Amendment 43, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, seeks to ensure that consultations,

“last for a proportionate length of time”.

We have discussed this in previous stages and the Government believe it is essential to consult before making regulations to ensure that the regulations are both effective and proportionate. That is why we have included a requirement to consult in Clause 16. I completely agree that it is always important to ensure that consultations last for a proportionate length of time. Consulting too quickly will not give enough time for consideration and will reduce the quality of responses. This is why the Government’s Consultation Principles 2018 include precisely this point as one of the principles. The amendment would change the relevant principle into a requirement in the Bill.

We do not believe it is necessary to do that. The Government are already held to account for conducting consultations in line with the consultation principles. There is heavy scrutiny of those responding and of course by Parliament. The Government are also subject to the requirements of public law, and therefore to oversight by the courts, when undertaking consultations of this nature. Therefore, while I fully agree with the importance of ensuring that consultations last a proportionate length of time, I do not think it necessary to turn one of the Government’s principles into a statutory requirement in the Bill.

I thank the noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, for raising the topic of ensuring that consultations last a proportionate length of time. I agree on the importance but, for the reasons I have set out, it is not necessary or appropriate to include them in the Bill. I hope that, with the commitments I have given and the government amendments, the noble Baroness feels able to withdraw her amendment.

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Moved by

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

30A: After Clause 10, leave out subsection (1) and insert—
“(1) If the mayor for a relevant area makes a request for regulations under section 10 to be made in relation to the relevant area and conditions 1 and 2 are met, then the Secretary of State must either—(a) make the regulations, or(b) notify the mayor of his or her decision not to make the regulations, and include reasons for that decision.”

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, in the absence of the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, I shall move the amendment she has tabled. I shall not speak at any great length on it. The change which has been tabled is welcome, but it falls considerably short of what we were hoping for and, in particular, what the mayors were hoping for. They do not feel that the Bill gives them the powers to tackle the fundamental problems they have with air pollution. They see it as an important part of several pieces of equipment they need to tackle air pollution. In particular, as I said in my earlier intervention, they have to be able to bring pressure to bear to ensure that there are more electric charging points in car parks. The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, made the point very clearly. Most people using electric cars are not concerned about long journeys. They have bought their electric cars for good green reasons and for other reasons, and they are using them principally in cities. They are looking for the infrastructure to back them and, in particular, they find that in many areas in which they park there is no facility.

The mayors recognise this. They know what their cities have and what their citizens want. I am sure they will feel that while they welcome this change, there are a lot of words but little change and little benefit for them. Others may speak on this but we hope that the Government might take this away, reflect on it and see if they can come back and do better on it next time around. I beg to move.

[Lord Tunnicliffe]

I am somewhat confused. I thought we were still debating the group starting with Amendment 29, and my understanding of the rules is that no other amendment is yet moved. Anyway, I will make the speech that I was going to make. I thank the Minister for her help in trying to get me to understand the amendment, those that preceded it and the amendments to the amendments that preceded the latest amendments to the amendment. I have to admit that I am now totally confused. Hence I am absolutely delighted that the Minister has assured us that this group of amendments will be translated into a single government amendment. I will reserve my views on that amendment until I have seen it, and I hope it turns up quite soon. Because that amendment will be tabled, we may choose to bring forward amendments to it at Third Reading, but I will refrain from using the time of the House any more at this point.

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[Baroness Randerson]

My Lords, I am pleased to see this amendment committing to a reporting procedure. It is highly sensible because of the way in which we are having to second-guess the future. The speed of response to change could well be quite rapid. I recall the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, quoting some statistics at our last sitting. She referred to a big spike in the sales of petrol cars that matched the rapid decline in the sale of diesel cars. I use that example to illustrate that changes in this market can be very rapid in response to public knowledge, concern and awareness of environmental issues.

I will use the opportunity of this reporting amendment to urge the Government to give some thought now to the possibility of including car parks in their proposals at Third Reading. Car parks were included as a possibility for further regulations, I suggest gently to the Government that they have the discretion not to implement anything about this in the near future, but they could look, after the first report comes forward, at car parks if their measures implemented in relation to service stations have not proved sufficiently effective. That would mean that they would have the weapon in their armoury, kept in the background. They would not have to go to further legislation and further amendment, which could be difficult and time-consuming. However, I welcome the idea of regular government reports on this rapidly changing situation.

[Lord Brooke of Alverthorpe]

My Lords, having been critical, I now extend a word of gratitude. In particular, I welcome subsection (1)(b) of the proposed new clause in the amendment to which the Minister drew attention, because that will definitely be needed in the future. It is a very helpful amendment indeed.

[Lord Lucas]

My Lords, I too am grateful to the Government for the amendment. I particularly congratulate them on subsection (2) of the proposed new clause which, for those who do not have the amendments with them, states:

“Each report must be laid before Parliament after the end of the reporting period to which it relates”.


A Government who could lay the report before the end of the reporting period would be some Government. This provision has no timescale, which could allow the report to be laid before Parliament 45 years after the end of the reporting period to which it relates. That is quite a commitment and again I congratulate the Government on their drafting.