Financial Services (Banking Reform) Bill

Lord Brennan Excerpts

Wednesday 27th November 2013 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Noakes (Con)]

My Lords, as the Minister has said, I have Amendment 138 in this group. He has explained the amendment and the answer to it so well that I did not need to bring my speaking note with me. I thank him for the comments he has made, which have fully answered the points that lay behind my tabling of the amendment. He asked me to withdraw the amendment but as I have not moved it I cannot withdraw it. However, I confirm that I shall not be moving it when we reach the appropriate time on the Marshalled List.

[Lord Brennan (Lab)]

My Lords, I congratulate the Minister on his patience and courtesy in always being the Minister to answer my criticisms of the Bill. The patience and courtesy with which he meets my generosity in this regard fairly ought to be shared at some stage by the noble Lord, Lord Deighton.

The purpose of the amendments is to raise with the House and the Government two broad questions: first, on the need to avoid regulatory overload; and, secondly, on the need to ensure the adoption of robust regulatory principles in dealing with different sectors of the banking world. The amendments are directed at card payment systems, not the interbank arrangements to do with BACS, CHAPS, the clearance of cheques and so on, which have caused a great deal of difficulty.

First, on regulatory overload, this system, described in more than 60 sections, will be under the overall control of the Financial Conduct Authority, albeit the payment system regulatory structure will have its own chairman and board. It is a matter of real concern to note how much the FCA is being given to do in so many different regulatory contexts. This is a concern, first, as to manpower; secondly, as to skill and competence; and, therefore, thirdly, as to effectiveness.

Yesterday afternoon, in one of our debates, it was pointed out to me that the banking sector, or the financial sector, will pay for these regulatory costs. That is to state the obvious. The reality is, I assume, that the regulatory system hereby created will not be permanently in debt and bailed out annually by the financial services sector. Rather, it sets a budget a year ahead and the financial system pays it at the end of the second year in arrears. That gives the regulators two years of a relatively fixed budget. So, in determining how much responsibility to give to the regulators, including the Payment Systems Regulator, particular regard should be had to their capacity to carry out the job effectively.

It is therefore very important for the regulatory principle that the FCA and the PSR should not be given jobs they feel they have to do when present circumstances do not require them to do them.

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Moved by

[Lord Brennan]

190: Clause 124, page 95, line 13, leave out paragraph (b)

[Lord Brennan]

My Lords, this amendment raises an issue of parliamentary importance well beyond the scope of the Bill. Clause 124 is a Henry VIII clause. Its contents involve the usual provision to make consequential amendments following the enactment of the Bill. My amendment is expressly related to the additional power the clause gives to amend subsequent legislation passed in this House in the same Session as the present Bill.

In restricting the amendment to that particular subsection, it should not be understood that I approve of the use of Henry VIII clauses. They are often the result of a bureaucratic, slipshod approach, whereas years ago statutes in draft form were dealt with with great care. The more such clauses are introduced, the more will be eroded the parliamentary sovereignty that is exercised over primary legislation.

Subsection (b) contains the power to amend future legislation in this Session of Parliament. In Committee, I invited the Government to explain the necessity for this and to note that it was most unusual. In fact, I have been able to identify only one statute where this phraseology has been used—the Financial Services and Markets Act 2000, a Treasury Bill. Please note the difference. You can amend an existing statute under a Henry VIII clause if it is passed, whether it is as a consequence of this Bill or some Bill that has become an Act in the past. However, we are talking about this Bill giving a power for subordinate legislation to amend future legislation. That is an extraordinary power for Parliament to seek to give, no matter how often it is declared that it is only for consequential matters.

It is the one example that I can find and occurred in circumstances which are extremely concerning. The amendment deals with a clause that was introduced in Committee. It was not considered by the Delegated Powers Committee because it came subsequent to that committee’s report, and it was not considered by the Constitution Committee, both of which would normally consider and report on a Henry VIII clause. The Government would then respond to that report and the committee would reply. That process fulfils what the Constitution Committee’s report on the Public Bodies Bill in 2010 said should occur in respect of these clauses—they should be clearly limited, exercisable only for specific purposes and subject to adequate parliamentary scrutiny. That does not mean only on the Floor of the Chamber: it is the committee’s report, the Government’s response and that then informing this Chamber as to whether the Henry VIII power is appropriate. The Government introduced the clause by amendment and, as far as I am aware, they did not bring it to the attention of either of these committees or engage in the exchange that would normally have occurred.

The noble and learned Lord, Lord Judge—who now sits on the Cross Benches—as Lord Chief Justice, described Henry VIII clauses in general as pernicious because they make for sloppy legislation and potential injustice, as well as a lack of parliamentary sovereignty. However, he did not have in mind a Henry VIII clause that allowed amendment of future legislation. Is this academic? No, it is not. Within the present Bill and the Government’s commentary on the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standard’s report, I identified to the committee three issues which the Government were continuing to consider, each of which would require legislation if they introduced a change in respect of any one of the three. This could occur, presumably, during this Session.

This is important. Is it not rare that a Chamber in a legislature should allow subsidiary legislation to dominate future primary legislation in the sense that it can amend it? That state of affairs—something arising that affects a previous Act—should result in the Government of the day amending the new Act accordingly, as is their statutory duty in introducing legislation to the House.

In Committee, the noble Lord, Lord Newby—surely trying to be helpful, as he always is—said:

“I am very happy for Treasury lawyers to set out in a letter the precedents that these powers exactly replicate”.—[Official Report, 23/10/13; col. 1171.]

Five weeks later, I have received nothing and the Government have not given an explanation. It is not good enough. If the matter comes up again at Third Reading, it will be incumbent on the Government, at the very least, to make sure that any amendment concerning this clause should take place in the Chamber, if possible in the presence of noble Lords from those two committees playing their part. I beg to move.

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[Lord Newby]

My Lords, I understand the concerns expressed by the noble Lord, Lord Brennan, and I assure him again that there is nothing unusual about the form of the power to make consequential amendments in Clause 124, and in particular, subsection (2)(b) does not extend the power unreasonably. My memory of exactly what I have written to whom, given that I have written to quite a number of people, is slightly hazy. I think I may have referred to this issue in what was a sort of portmanteau letter to the noble Lord, Lord Eatwell. It covered a whole raft of issues that had been raised not only by him but by other noble Lords. If I did not do so, I apologise to the noble Lord, Lord Brennan. However, in what I am about to say, I think that I can deal with the main point that he made.

Removing paragraph (b) would limit the power to make consequential amendments to Acts which are passed before the passing of this Act. That can produce unpredictable results depending on the progress of Bills and the dates on which they happen to reach Royal Assent. For this reason, powers to make consequential amendments to existing legislation often refer to Acts which are passed in the same Session as the Act in question. Noble Lords have asked for examples of this, and I can give them several. Such powers can be found in Section 51 of the Constitutional Reform and Governance Act 2010, Section 237 of the Planning Act 2008, Section 28 of the Welfare Reform Act 2007 and Section 118 of the Financial Services Act 2012—the provision on which Clause 124 was modelled.

The assumption is that Bills of the same Session are likely to have been prepared by reference to the existing law at the beginning of the Session, while the Bills of the next Session would have to take account of the change in the law produced by the Act in question. Where a Bill is amended significantly in its passage through the second House, it is particularly unlikely that Bills passed or made in the same Session will have taken account of all the provisions of the new Bill. That clearly applies in this case, as your Lordships know. The need to implement the recommendations of the Parliamentary Commission on Banking Standards has required very extensive amendments to the Bill in this House, and therefore it will not have been possible for the Bills which are being considered by Parliament in this Session to have taken full account of all the changes in the law which will be made by this Bill. Nor has there been time for the Government to consider all the Bills currently before the House to see if any consequential amendments may be required, or to follow all the amendments being proposed to these Bills. We have not, for example, had the opportunity to review the Pensions Bill, which may have provisions relevant to the subject matter of this Bill, or the Immigration Bill, which has some provisions on banking. We cannot rule out the possibility that it may be necessary for the Government to make consequential amendments to them.

I assure the House that the amendment introducing this power was considered by the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee, and that committee has not expressed any concerns in relation to this power. I hope that, in the light of these assurances, the noble Lord will feel able to withdraw his amendment.

[Lord Brennan]

Will the Minister clarify, first, his reference to the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee? Was its response made in writing, has it been published, and is it available in the Printed Paper Office? Secondly, and much more important, is that as his research appears to have been done, can he clarify whether on any previous occasion this power has actually led to the amendment of another Bill being passed in the same Session, but after the Act which gave rise to the power?

[Lord Newby]

I thank the noble Lord for that question. It is the normal practice of the Delegated Powers and Regulatory Reform Committee to include in one report its views on a number of Bills. I believe that that is what happened in this case and I will definitely write to the noble Lord if it has not.

[Lord Brennan]

Would it be possible for the Minister to confirm that because I asked specifically in the Printed Paper Office for all the relevant paperwork about this, and I was not given any report.

[Lord Newby]

I will absolutely confirm that, and I will write to the noble Lord on the second point, which I promise to do speedily.