Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Main Page: Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth (Conservative - Life peer)Department Debates - View all Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth's debates with the Wales Office
Energy Bill [HL]
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth Excerpts(8 years, 8 months ago)
Lords ChamberRead Full debate Read Hansard Text Read Debate Ministerial Extracts
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 1.
“( ) Schedule 1 to the Oil Taxation Act 1975,”
The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department of Energy and Climate Change and Wales Office (Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth) (Con)
My Lords, the amendments in this group add the relevant provisions of the Oil Taxation Act 1975 and the Corporation Tax Act 2010 to the legislation listed at Clause 2(6), which contains the Secretary of State’s relevant oil and gas functions. This ensures that the functions provided for by these Acts fall within the definition of “relevant functions” and can be transferred from the Secretary of State to the Oil and Gas Authority by regulations made under Clause 2(2).
Schedule 1 to the Oil Taxation Act 1975 and Part 8 of the Corporation Tax Act 2010 contain the important oil and gas functions of determining oil fields, cluster areas and whether an oil field project is materially complete. These functions form the basis of oil taxation and are currently undertaken by the Oil and Gas Authority in its capacity as an executive agency. Amendment 2A to Commons Amendment 2 simply seeks to ensure that the function of determining whether an oil field project is materially complete is also transferable to the OGA.
These amendments are technical in nature and simply seek to put it beyond doubt that these key functions can be transferred to the OGA once it becomes a government company, as we have always intended. I beg to move.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 2.
“( ) Chapter 9 of Part 8 of the Corporation Tax Act 2010,”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 3.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, following a Division on Report in this House, a new clause was added to the Bill. This new clause rewrote the OGA’s principal objective in three significant ways. First, it removed the Wood review’s central premise to maximise the economic recovery of UK petroleum within Part 1A of the Petroleum Act, and replaced it with an objective to maximise the economic return of UK petroleum. Secondly, it imposed on the OGA an obligation to retain oversight of the decommissioning of oil and gas infrastructure. Finally, it imposed an obligation on the OGA to secure oil and gas infrastructure for reuse for the transportation and storage of greenhouse gases. Noble Lords will know that these changes were reversed in Committee in the other place.
The OGA has important functions in respect of both decommissioning and the storage of carbon dioxide. However, the change to the principal objective made on Report detracts from the OGA’s focus on maximising economic recovery and is damaging to the North Sea. This is unacceptable—particularly at a time of unprecedented challenge for the oil and gas industry. The OGA should remain focused on maximising economic recovery, and anything other than this risks seriously weakening its ability to provide crucial and urgent support to our oil and gas industry.
The amendment made at Lords Report stage had significant potential knock-on effects. By diluting the OGA’s principal objective, it would not only risk the premature decommissioning of key North Sea infrastructure but seriously jeopardise vital skills and experience, including those that could help to promote the longevity of the industry through carbon storage projects. From this perspective, the amendment is self- defeating.
The Lord Bishop of Chester
My Lords, speaking briefly from these Benches but entirely personally, because bishops take different views on this, I welcome the realism that lies behind the Commons amendment. Following on from the contribution of the noble Lord, Lord Howell, it may well be that nature’s way of carbon capture and storage is some sort of vegetation. That may be the solution, but it is hardly a function for the Oil and Gas Authority to supervise. The great cost of extracting carbon dioxide—which can be done perfectly easily, technically—and then transporting it under the North Sea would increase energy prices in this country to an extent that would make the recent threat to our steel industry look like simply the foothills. It would have a major impact in raising energy costs. So the Commons amendment limiting the function of the Oil and Gas Authority is realistic and entirely supportable.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords for participating in the debate on this amendment. I will try to cover the points raised and do justice to some very important ones. First, there is nothing inconsistent in having a laser-like focus on the development of the North Sea as a principal objective set out by the Government and developing CCS. I reassure noble Lords who raised the issue—the noble Baronesses, Lady Featherstone, Lady Liddell and Lady Worthington—that the Government are very much wedded to the importance of CCS. As the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, said, we set up an advisory committee chaired by the noble Lord, Lord Oxburgh, who I do not think is in his place. He brings to this task great expertise. It has cross-party representation, with all principal parties here represented and also the Scottish nationalists from another place. We will be responding to the advice that we receive from the committee, which I think will come in a timely way at the end of the summer or the beginning of the autumn. I know that the committee has met at least three times already and is driving this agenda very hard.
I will mention what we are doing on CCS to reassure noble Lords. There is collaboration with key partners who are also developing CCS; we are sharing data and research with them. Officials in the department are working on CCS; this is not an area where there is no activity. Our science and innovation budget has been increased, and we are looking at how we can usefully use it. There are developments on Teesside with industrial CCS, which is important. My noble friend Lord Howell made a valid point about carbon capture usage, which is also a key part of what we are looking at—but these things are best done together.
I thank my noble friend Lord Ridley for mentioning the issue of Canada; we study progress there very closely. I also thank the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Chester for injecting some realism about the importance of having that laser-like focus on the North Sea, but, at the same time, as has rightly been accentuated and stressed by other noble Lords in the debate, developing a CCS strategy. With that, I commend the amendment.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Moved by
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendments 4 and 5.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, Commons Amendments 4 and 5 overturn amendments made at Lords Report stage. They reinstate the original wording of Clause 17, to require the Secretary of State to carry out reviews of the OGA’s performance and functions on a no more than three-yearly, ongoing basis. There is broad consensus that measures are needed to ensure that the OGA remains well equipped to address the diverse challenges faced by the oil and gas industry. Its role and scope, including in relation to the storage of carbon dioxide, needs to be appropriate, sufficient and regularly evaluated. As such, the Government introduced provisions requiring review of the OGA’s effectiveness in exercising its functions, as well as review of the fitness for purpose and scope of such functions.
However, requiring an initial review to take place no later than one year after the Bill comes into force, and then annually for subsequent reviews thereafter, would be an incredibly onerous process for government, the OGA and industry. Moreover, it would likely have myriad unintended consequences. It would require the almost continuous evaluation of the effectiveness of the OGA, with very little time to implement the recommendations from each review. Reviews would be extensive, needing to cover both statutory and non-statutory functions, and an assessment of effectiveness against external factors, such as changes in the regulatory landscape, operational practices across the UK continental shelf and environmental and economic factors.
All this would be required as part of the review to enable the Secretary of State to produce a report setting out the findings of the review which is to be laid before Parliament. This would create significant resource burdens both for the OGA and government, and risk obstructing the work of the OGA. This process would be inefficient and likely to result in an ineffective review. It would weaken the OGA’s ability to act as an independent regulator free from government intervention. It would also create a review process significantly out of step with other regulators.
There will be other mechanisms in place to ensure that the OGA’s performance and functions are appropriate. The OGA will publish, on an annual basis, a refreshed five-year business plan and an annual report and accounts. The need for an arm’s-length body charged with effective stewardship and regulation of the UK continental shelf was a central recommendation of the Wood review. I believe that the original three-year review periods introduced by government must be reinstated to avoid conflict with that recommendation. I beg to move.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Moved by
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 6.
“Onshore wind power: closure of renewables obligation on 31 March 2016
(1) In Part 1 of the Electricity Act 1989 (electricity supply), after section 32LB insert—
“32LC Onshore wind generating stations: closure of renewables obligation
(1) No renewables obligation certificates are to be issued under a renewables obligation order in respect of electricity generated after 31 March 2016 by an onshore wind generating station.
(2) Subsection (1) does not apply to electricity generated in the circumstances set out in any one or more of sections 32LD to 32LL.
(3) In this section and sections 32LD to 32LL “onshore wind generating station” means a generating station that—
(a) generates electricity from wind, and
(b) is situated in England, Wales or Scotland, but not in waters in or adjacent to England, Wales or Scotland up to the seaward limits of the territorial sea.
(4) The reference in subsection (1) to a renewables obligation order is to any renewables obligation order made under section 32 (whenever made, and whether or not made by the Secretary of State).
(5) Power to make provision in a renewables obligation order or a renewables obligation closure order (and any provision contained in such an order) is subject to subsection (1) and sections 32LD to 32LL.
(6) This section is not otherwise to be taken as affecting power to make provision in a renewables obligation order or renewables obligation closure order.”
(2) The Renewables Obligation Closure Order 2014 (S.I. 2014/2388) is amended as follows.
(3) In article 2(1) (interpretation), after the definition of “network operator” insert—
““onshore wind generating station” means a generating station that—
(a) generates electricity from wind, and
(b) is situated in England, Wales or Scotland, but not in waters in or adjacent to England, Wales or Scotland up to the seaward limits of the territorial sea;”.
(4) In article 3 (closure of renewables obligation on 31st March 2017)—
(a) in the heading, after “solar pv stations” insert “or onshore wind generating stations”;
(b) in paragraph (1), after “solar pv station” insert “or an onshore wind generating station”.”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, the Government remain committed to delivering our manifesto pledge to end new subsidies for onshore wind. To deliver on this commitment the Government are intent on bringing forward the closure of the renewables obligation to new onshore wind in Great Britain. It is the Government’s view that all the government amendments in this group are consequential on each other.
Commons Amendment 6 reinserts the early closure clause removed at Lords Report stage. It gives effect to the manifesto commitment to end new subsidies for onshore wind. As I set out during our earlier debates, the Government have engaged widely on their intention and have considered in detail each of the proposals that have been raised, not only by noble Lords and Members in the other place but by many valued industry stakeholders during the passage of the Bill. The Government are committed to protecting consumers from the rising costs of energy bills while also protecting investor confidence. It is the Government’s opinion that the new clauses presented here do exactly this.
To protect investor confidence, the Government have proposed a grace period for those projects, meeting certain conditions as at 18 June last year, as outlined in the Statement on that date by my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change, Amber Rudd. The grace period conditions set out in Commons Amendment 7 are intended to protect those projects which already had the following as at 18 June last year: first, relevant planning consents; secondly, a grid connection offer and acceptance of that offer, or confirmation that no grid connection is required; and, thirdly, access to land rights.
In addition, and to address feedback from industry, certain projects which have been granted planning permission following a successful appeal will also be eligible for the grace period. This will include those projects which have, as a result of a judicial review or an appeal, had a negative planning decision which was made on or before 18 June last year subsequently overturned.
The Government have also taken on board concerns raised by industry about an investment freeze. Following industry engagement after the 18 June announcement last year, we have seen evidence that certain projects have been experiencing difficulty securing funding due to legislative uncertainty caused by the Bill’s passage through Parliament. We have, therefore, sought to address this through the investment freezing condition. This will ensure that projects which meet the approved development condition, and which would otherwise have been able to commission and accredit under the RO by the original closure date, 31 March 2017, are not frozen out of the process. This investment-freezing condition has been designed specifically to protect the projects that were intended to be able to access the grace period as proposed on 18 June last year but which have been unable to secure debt funding pending Royal Assent due to legislative uncertainty. Indeed, feedback from industry suggests that it supports and welcomes such a measure.
The Government want to take a consistent approach to all onshore wind projects eligible to accredit under the RO. The Commons amendments therefore also seek to ensure that an existing grace period for delays caused by grid or radar works will continue to apply. Let me reiterate so no ambiguity remains: this is a manifesto commitment based on plans which we signalled well before the election. The honourable Member for Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill, Mr Philip Boswell, said at Committee stage in the other place:
“We agree that swift passage of the Bill with clear and consistent RO grace period provisions is needed in order to provide certainty to investors in the onshore wind sector as quickly as possible. The renewables industry fears that the longer legislative uncertainty over RO closure persists, the greater the risk of otherwise eligible projects running out of time to deliver under the proposed grace periods”.—[Official Report, Commons, Energy Bill Committee, 2/2/16; col. 127.]
On Commons Amendment 8, the Government would like to see an equivalent approach to closure of the RO to onshore wind taken across the UK. Commons Amendment 8 gives the Secretary of State a power to make regulations, which, if made, would prevent suppliers in Great Britain using Northern Ireland renewables obligation certificates. These would relate to electricity generated by new onshore wind stations and any additional capacity added to existing wind stations after the onshore wind closure date. This power allows for circumstances to be specified in regulations when such Northern Ireland renewable obligation certificates may still be used, and for the setting of a later date than the onshore wind closure date. The power has been included with an intention to protect consumers in Great Britain from the costs of any additional support which Northern Ireland chooses to provide.
This is a backstop power; it would be used only if Northern Ireland does not close its renewable obligation to new onshore wind on equivalent terms to the rest of the United Kingdom. As my honourable friend the Minister of State Andrea Leadsom confirmed in the other place, this power would be used only in relation to new onshore wind stations and additional capacity in Northern Ireland that do not meet closure conditions equivalent to those in Great Britain.
I am pleased to say that renewable obligation in Northern Ireland has now closed to large-scale new onshore wind stations with a capacity above 5 megawatts with effect from 1 April 2016, and that Northern Ireland is currently consulting on closing stations at 5 megawatts and below on equivalent terms to the rest of the United Kingdom. The Government continue to engage with Northern Ireland with a view to effecting closure on equivalent terms to Great Britain through Northern Irish legislation, but this backstop power is included with a view to delivering on our manifesto commitment across the whole of the United Kingdom.
Amendment 10 seeks to ensure simply that the provisions set out in Commons Amendments 6, 7 and 8—that is, the early closure of the RO to new onshore wind in Great Britain, together with the related grace-period provisions, and the backstop power relating to the RO in Northern Ireland—will come into force on Royal Assent. As my honourable friend the Minister of State Andrea Leadsom set out in the other place, the Government intend the provisions implementing the early closure of the RO to come into force on the date of Royal Assent and do not intend to backdate these provisions.
Government amendments to Commons Amendments 6, 7 and 8 further clarify that the onshore wind closure date will be the date on which the Bill achieves Royal Assent. These changes are set out in government Amendments 6A, 6B, 7A to 7S, 7AJ to 7AL and 8A to 8C. The amendments also include a number of consequential changes to the investment-freezing condition, extending it by one month to account for the additional period of legislative uncertainty. The amendments further ensure that projects seeking to access the grid or radar delay condition would continue to have an additional 12 months to accredit where they satisfy the relevant eligibility requirements. The Government are making these changes to provide clarity and certainty for the industry, and our policy makes it clear that we are taking steps to protect consumer bills while also balancing the interests of industry. I beg to move.
Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)
I shall speak to Amendments 7U, 7V, 7W, 7Y, 7AC, 7AD and 7AE which are in my name. The Minister is a good friend of mine, and I have great respect for him. Before he became a Minister, he and I used to work together on the great issue of devolution of powers to Scotland and Wales. We worked very well together, so I want to reassure him that I have every interest in him continuing in his post. I do not want him to do anything that would threaten his future. That is why I want to reassure him that everything that I am suggesting is in line with the Conservative election manifesto pledge.
Lord Grantchester (Lab)
My Lords, I shall speak to Amendment 7AB, tabled in my name. The Energy Bill started in your Lordships’ House shortly after the generally unexpected Conservative majority in the general election last year. It focuses primarily on the setting-up of the Oil and Gas Authority. Into the Bill, the new Conservative Government thrust two new clauses on onshore wind, closing down early, to a date of 18 June, the renewables obligation. Hurriedly, the Government agreed to consider exceptions, as grace periods, to allow schemes to complete as they had travelled a long way through the development stage, in good faith and at considerable cost.
While understanding that the Government have to draw a new line somewhere to give effect to this measure, your Lordships’ House was not content that sufficient logic had been applied and passed the Bill to the Commons with these two clauses omitted from it. These clauses now return to your Lordships’ House but without material amendment having being made in the Commons to these grace period proposals.
Amendment 7AB proposes a logical, consistent, clear, honest and fair extension to the exceptions agreed by the Government. The wider onshore wind industry has come to a consensus and supports this single, narrow extension to the existing renewables grace period criteria. The proposed change is for projects that have achieved democratic local consent for their development at a planning committee on or before 18 June 2015 but received Section 75 in Scotland and Section 106 in England and Wales agreement after that date. At present they are excluded.
This cannot be said to be against Conservative Party policy. It is widely considered that a decision made by a democratically elected local planning committee embodies the principle of giving local people the final say. To deny this extension is to deny and prevent local people having the final say on wind farm applications.
The publication of a resolution to grant permission is considered by both developers and local authorities to be a procedural step and that planning permission is to follow—in effect, agreement is all but made. The industry is not aware of any commercial project that received local community consent at planning committee and was not awarded a written decision because of a failure to complete a Section 75/106 agreement. Continuing to proceed on the basis that planning consent is secured, developers have greater sunk costs at this stage. Formal notice is expected because a resolution by a planning committee is a real and substantial commitment.
The lack of logic in the Government’s position arises from the concession they have granted to projects refused permission at 18 June but subsequently agreed on appeal. Projects refused on 18 June, although overturned, can qualify, whereas agreements resolved on 18 June and subsequently fulfilled cannot. This is a bizarre interpretation. The legal advice that the industry has received categorically states that there is as much “legal right” to a planning permission resolved at local level as there is to a permission subsequently granted on appeal following a refusal by a planning committee. As I have said, the Government are content to allow these successful appeals to proceed.
Grace period concessions for anomalies and complexities around the criteria should allow for projects which have local consent but missed the cut-off date due to the time needed for a planning authority to complete a Section 75/106 agreement and issue a decision notice. It would comply with Conservative policy that locally approved wind farms be enabled to go ahead.
To allow this concession will not open—I will not say floodgates—a gale of projects coming forward. I understand the industry has put forward a list of projects that received resolution for approval but where formal permission was issued after 18 June. The list totals seven projects—six in Scotland and one in England. This totals just under 90 megawatts. To put this into context, 90 megawatts would power 50,000 households—a mere fifth of 1% of more than 26 million households and about 1% of the present onshore wind capacity of over 8,500 megawatts. Surely the Minister cannot contend this to be a major concession.
As to the amendments tabled by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace of Tankerness, he has worked tirelessly on trying to get a fair outcome for projects started in good faith by people who have committed substantial time and assets to bring forward onshore wind developments—which, after all, will be the least-cost technology providing low-carbon power. He has worked extensively, engaging with industry and the Government, to get a resolution that does the decent thing by these developers.
This measure closing down the renewable obligation has been one of the many taken by this Government that has done severe damage to investor confidence and led to a Commons departmental committee issuing a report on investor confidence in the UK energy sector.
I do not doubt that the amendments the noble and learned Lord has tabled are thought through with good intentions. However, I have targeted this side of the House’s focus specifically on the very minimum that could be considered reasonable, given that onshore wind developments are likely to be coming to an end in any case. His Amendment 7X, in part, supports my case. Yes, we want to be fair where we can, considering that the provision can be said to be in the Conservative Party manifesto, and the Commons has expressed its decision. We ask the Government to think again on the small measure I propose, at the very least, and show some consistency
I thank my noble friend Lord Hain for bringing this situation and his amendment to the attention of the House today. It allows me to underline just how destructive the Government’s arbitrary cut-off date of projects has been. A great amount of uncertainty now exists throughout the renewables sector and I urge the Minister and his department to open a dialogue with their Welsh counterparts to resolve this anomaly as quickly as possible.
I turn now to the amendments in the name of my noble friend Lord Foulkes of Cumnock and supported by my noble friend Lady Liddell and others. My noble friend’s Amendment 7Y, in part, also supports the case that I have made. Unfortunately, he includes other provisions that go beyond the small, narrow extension to the Government’s concessions. The fact that six of the seven projects arising from this extension are in Scotland shows the importance of wind power for jobs and enterprise there. He has identified the effect on schemes locally in Scotland in his remarks. It is unfortunate that the Government have brought back the renewables obligation scheme to be solely under the reserve of the Westminster Parliament by withdrawing it from being a devolved matter.
From the amendments that have come forward, I consider it reasonable to press ahead with the amendments that I propose.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, we have had a wide-ranging debate on the opposition amendments which I shall try to cover in my response. I shall take the speeches in the order in which they were made.
I acknowledge the great efforts that have been made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, the noble Lords, Lord Foulkes, Lord Grantchester and Lord Hain, and the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and I thank them for their comprehensive suggestions and the detailed drafting of the amendments. I also thank them for their hard work and forensic skill—particularly that of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace—in putting them forward.
I understand the points that are being made. There is, by and large, a doctrinal difference in attitudes to onshore wind between the Opposition and the Government. Hence it was in our manifesto and not in those of other parties. That should be our starting point.
I should make one thing clear that I hope I do not need to make clear. There were many references to my right honourable friend the Secretary of State for Scotland and projects being in his constituency and I hope no one was suggesting that there should be special treatment in that regard. Let me make it clear that there will not be—nor would the right honourable member for Dumfriesshire, Clydesdale and Tweeddale expect such.
I thank the noble Lord, Lord Foulkes, for his unusual, unprecedented and almost unique accolades. We go back a long way on devolution and, as he knows, I have the greatest respect for him. I am about to damage him with his Benches in the same way as he damaged me with mine but I thank him for his contribution. I contest the point he is making about these being mere technicalities—they are much more than that.
As noble Lords will appreciate, I cannot respond to all of the detailed projects because I do not have knowledge of every single one. Of those I do, I will endeavour to say what I can on them, but I cannot specifically carry the knowledge of where we are on them all. I certainly would encourage noble Lords and the developers to be in touch with the department because officials are keen to engage, to be helpful, and to give clarity in relation to these different projects.
I pay tribute to the noble Lord, who I know makes great efforts on behalf of his part of Scotland and the area he used to represent, and he has put forward a powerful case. I shall pick up on a point made by the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, and say that of course there would be an impact on deployment. Obviously if we alter the law it will not be just in relation to Scotland, it will apply to the whole of the country. It will not be laser-like on a particular area, so it will increase deployment, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, indicated in his remarks. His figure was higher than that suggested by my noble friend Lord Lindsay. Further, as has been indicated, we have undertaken extensive consultation.
I turn to the points made by the noble Lord, Lord Hain, and I thank him very much indeed for making me aware of what he was going to say in relation to Llynfi Afan in the Afan Valley and the Gamesa project there. As he knows, DECC officials have already been engaged with the developer and they are happy to continue to do that. I am also certainly happy to write to Gamesa, as he indicated. From what I gather, this is not a difficulty with the Welsh Government, as has just been suggested. I do not think that that is the case at all. This project has planning permission so we will certainly take a close look at it and clarify the position. If I can help in that regard, of course I will.
I turn to the points made by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hardie, on the issue of the grid and radar delay as set out in the letter that we sent to him. If I can, I will get officials to contact him again in case there is a lack of clarity on that or if there is an ambiguity; I do not think there is. I know that it is an issue that matters to other noble Lords as well.
I turn to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, who raised many points with forensic skill, as he does. As he has been around the legal block a bit he will know that cut-off dates are always a problem. It can be suggested that they are capricious or arbitrary, but virtually all legislation has cut-off points in it, and there will always be someone on the other side of them who you wish you could help. But in reality a cut-off point has to be set, and that is what we have done. I can understand that it does not appeal to some people, but of course it is arbitrary only in the sense that any date is arbitrary, so even if we moved in the way he has suggested, there would be other projects that would fall just the other side of the line.
I think that the noble and learned Lord’s ultimate conclusion was that there is no hybridity in this Bill. If that was his conclusion, I agree with him; this is not an issue about hybridity. Scottish developers are subject to Scottish planning law and those in England and Wales are subject to English and Welsh planning law. It is not unusual for differences in law to arise on either side of the border these days, and indeed it is now happening more and more in relation to Wales as well, producing different practical results. I do not think that that causes hybridity unless a specific private interest is affected, but I do not see that being the case here. So, with regret, I do not think that I can move on any of the points he has raised. We have made our position very clear.
Perhaps I may just say in response to some of the matters that have been brought up in relation to Scotland—I understand the particular interest in Scotland because of the massive deployment there; it has benefited massively, there is no doubt about that—that it was not a significant issue in the House of Commons. I did not think it was and so I double-checked it. That is not to say that it is not a matter that needs to be addressed, but it is interesting to note that it did not seem to be a massive issue in another place.
The noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, set out a position in relation to CFDs and the Scottish Government. We have set the rules for CFDs and we have said that they will not be considered for the round of CFDs in this year, but I am very willing to ensure that we engage with the Scottish Government, as we do on energy issues, to see if there is anything that we can do in relation to future CFD rounds. I will take that away and look at it.
The noble and learned Lord, Lord Wallace, raised an issue about what he saw as the improved clarity set out in the letter that I sent to him. That is the correct position, and we will ensure that the letter is circulated to noble Lords who have participated in the debate and we will make use of it too if it is helpful to developers, as indeed we do. The correct position is set out in it, so I will be happy to do that.
The noble Lord, Lord Grantchester, spoke kindly about our unexpected election victory as he saw it, and he also said quite rightly, for which I thank him, that one has to draw the line somewhere. That is a very realistic position. We can take different views as to where the line should be drawn. He talked about democratic control, but I would make the point that this does not stop wind farms deploying onshore, it ends the subsidy. People need to grasp that. The position is that we do not want to carry on subsidising where there is no continued need for subsidy. That is the basis on which we are moving and one of the prime reasons for this provision.
Lord Bruce of Bennachie (LD)
My Lords, I apologise for not being here at the beginning of the Bill, having only joined the House since then. On the basis of what was said by my noble and learned friend Lord Wallace and the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, like the noble Baroness, Lady Quin, I represented an area which had an awful lot of applications, but we found that the big developers got in very quickly and were able to process their applications, whereas the small community proposals took a lot longer and found it more difficult, so they were later in the field. They have been caught by this. Does the Minister not recognise that the Government could find themselves in a situation where they are seen to have gone against communities in favour of big business? That just compounds the difficulty and the ideological divide that the Government are pursuing.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
The noble Lord is wrong on the issue because, with the grace period and with the investment-freeze conditions, we have allowed for movement on these issues. I take the point that he is making but I do not agree with it.
I am just double-checking, but I hope that I have now done full justice to the comments that have been made.
Lord Wallace of Tankerness
My Lords, I do not think that the Minister has addressed two points, one of which is the investment-freeze conditions and green organisations such as Triodos, which do not appear to qualify. Even at this late stage, would he be prepared to look at this again? I also refer to the points made by the noble Earl, Lord Lindsay, and myself with regard to community investments. I do not think that the Minister has specifically addressed that issue as regards the Dalquhandy and West Douglas development.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Taking the latter point first, I think that I did so in response to the comments made by the noble Lord, Lord Bruce. We do not see any reason for distinguishing between community projects and others. That would only give rise to difficulties.
On the investment-freeze conditions, I think that the noble and learned Lord is pursuing the lenders point. There is no intention to alter the list. It is something that I think could be done in the future without primary legislation, but there is no proposal to change that. I apologise for not covering it earlier.
I think that I have covered all the main points, and with that, I ask noble Lords to withdraw their amendments.
Amendments 6A and 6B (as amendments to Commons Amendment 6)
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 7.
“Onshore wind power: circumstances in which certificates may be issued after 31 March 2016
(1) Part 1 of the Electricity Act 1989 (electricity supply) is amended as follows. (2) After section 32LC (inserted by section [Onshore wind power: closure of renewables obligation on 31 March 2016] of this Act) insert—
“32LD Onshore wind generating stations accredited, or additional capacity added, on or before 31 March 2016
The circumstances set out in this section are where the electricity is—
(a) generated by an onshore wind generating station which was accredited on or before 31 March 2016, and
(b) generated using—
(i) the original capacity of the station, or
(ii) additional capacity which in the Authority’s view first formed part of the station on or before 31 March 2016.
32LE Onshore wind generating stations accredited, or additional capacity added, between 1 April 2016 and 31 March 2017: grid or radar delay condition met
The circumstances set out in this section are where the electricity is—
(a) generated using the original capacity of an onshore wind generating station—
(i) which was accredited during the period beginning with 1 April 2016 and ending with 31 March 2017, and
(ii) in respect of which the grid or radar delay condition is met, or
(b) generated using additional capacity of an onshore wind generating station, where—
(i) the station was accredited on or before 31 March 2016,
(ii) in the Authority’s view, the additional capacity first formed part of the station during the period beginning with 1 April 2016 and ending with 31 March 2017, and
(iii) the grid or radar delay condition is met in respect of the additional capacity.
32LF Onshore wind generating stations accredited, or additional capacity added, on or before 31 March 2017: approved development condition met
The circumstances set out in this section are where the electricity is—
(a) generated using the original capacity of an onshore wind generating station—
(i) which was accredited on or before 31 March 2017, and
(ii) in respect of which the approved development condition is met, or
(b) generated using additional capacity of an onshore wind generating station, where—
(i) the station was accredited on or before 31 March 2016,
(ii) in the Authority’s view, the additional capacity first formed part of the station on or before 31 March 2017, and
(iii) the approved development condition is met in respect of the additional capacity.
32LG Onshore wind generating stations accredited, or additional capacity added, between 1 April 2017 and 31 March 2018: grid or radar delay condition met
The circumstances set out in this section are where the electricity is—
(a) generated using the original capacity of an onshore wind generating station—
(i) which was accredited during the period beginning with 1 April 2017 and ending with 31 March 2018,
(ii) in respect of which the approved development condition is met, and
(iii) in respect of which the grid or radar delay condition is met, or
(b) generated using additional capacity of an onshore wind generating station, where—
(i) the station was accredited on or before 31 March 2016,
(ii) in the Authority’s view, the additional capacity first formed part of the station during the period beginning with 1 April 2017 and ending with 31 March 2018,
(iii) the approved development condition is met in respect of the additional capacity, and
(iv) the grid or radar delay condition is met in respect of the additional capacity.
32LH Onshore wind generating stations accredited, or additional capacity added, between 1 April 2017 and 31 December 2017: investment freezing condition met
The circumstances set out in this section are where the electricity is—
(a) generated using the original capacity of an onshore wind generating station—
(i) which was accredited during the period beginning with 1 April 2017 and ending with 31 December 2017, and
(ii) in respect of which both the approved development condition and the investment freezing condition are met, or
(b) generated using additional capacity of an onshore wind generating station, where—
(i) the station was accredited on or before 31 March 2016,
(ii) in the Authority’s view, the additional capacity first formed part of the station during the period beginning with 1 April 2017 and ending with 31 December 2017, and
(iii) both the approved development condition and the investment freezing condition are met in respect of the additional capacity.
32LI Onshore wind generating stations accredited, or additional capacity added, between 1 January 2018 and 31 December 2018: grid or radar delay condition met
The circumstances set out in this section are where the electricity is—
(a) generated using the original capacity of an onshore wind generating station—
(i) which was accredited during the period beginning with 1 January 2018 and ending with 31 December 2018,
(ii) in respect of which both the approved development condition and the investment freezing condition are met, and
(iii) in respect of which the grid or radar delay condition is met, or
(b) generated using additional capacity of an onshore wind generating station, where—
(i) the station was accredited on or before 31 March 2016,
(ii) in the Authority’s view, the additional capacity first formed part of the station during the period beginning with 1 January 2018 and ending with 31 December 2018,
(iii) both the approved development condition and the investment freezing condition are met in respect of the additional capacity, and
(iv) the grid or radar delay condition is met in respect of the additional capacity.
32LJ The approved development condition
(1) This section applies for the purposes of sections 32LF to 32LI.
(2) The approved development condition is met in respect of an onshore wind generating station if the documents specified in subsections (4), (5) and (6) were provided to the Authority with the application for accreditation of the station.
(3) The approved development condition is met in respect of additional capacity if the documents specified in subsections (4), (5) and (6) were provided to the Authority on or before the date on which the Authority made its decision that the additional capacity could form part of an onshore wind generating station.
(4) The documents specified in this subsection are—
(a) evidence that—
(i) planning permission for the station or additional capacity was granted on or before 18 June 2015, and
(ii) any conditions as to the time period within which the development to which the permission relates must be begun have not been breached,
(b) evidence that—
(i) planning permission for the station or additional capacity was refused on or before 18 June 2015, but granted after that date following an appeal or judicial review, and
(ii) any conditions as to the time period within which the development to which the permission relates must be begun have not been breached,
(c) evidence that—
(i) an application for 1990 Act permission or 1997 Act permission was made on or before 18 June 2015 for the station or additional capacity,
(ii) the period allowed under section 78(2) of the 1990 Act or (as the case may be) section 47(2) of the 1997
Act ended on or before 18 June 2015 without any of the things mentioned in section 78(2)(a) to (b) of the 1990 Act or section 47(2)(a) to (c) of the 1997 Act being done in respect of the application,
(iii) the application was not referred to the Secretary of State, Welsh Ministers or Scottish Ministers in accordance with directions given under section 77 of the 1990 Act or section 46 of the 1997 Act,
(iv) 1990 Act permission or 1997 Act permission was granted after 18 June 2015 following an appeal, and
(v) any conditions as to the time period within which the development to which the permission relates must be begun have not been breached, or
(d) a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, planning permission is not required for the station or additional capacity.
(5) The documents specified in this subsection are—
(a) a copy of an offer from a licensed network operator made on or before 18 June 2015 to carry out grid works in relation to the station or additional capacity, and evidence that the offer was accepted on or before that date (whether or not the acceptance was subject to any conditions or other terms), or
(b) a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, no grid works were required to be carried out by a licensed network operator in order to enable the station to be commissioned or the additional capacity to form part of the station.
(6) The documents specified in this subsection are a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, as at 18 June 2015 a relevant developer of the station or additional capacity (or a person connected, within the meaning of section 1122 of the Corporation Tax Act 2010, with a relevant developer of the station or additional capacity)—
(a) was an owner or lessee of the land on which the station or additional capacity is situated,
(b) had entered into an agreement to purchase or lease the land on which the station or additional capacity is situated,
(c) had an option to purchase or to lease the land on which the station or additional capacity is situated, or
(d) was a party to an exclusivity agreement in relation to the land on which the station or additional capacity is situated.
(7) In this section—
“the 1990 Act” means the Town and Country Planning Act 1990;
“1990 Act permission” means planning permission under the 1990 Act (except outline planning permission, within the meaning of section 92 of that Act);
“the 1997 Act” means the Town and Country Planning (Scotland) Act 1997;
“1997 Act permission” means planning permission under the 1997 Act (except planning permission in principle, within the meaning of section 59 of that Act);
“exclusivity agreement”, in relation to land, means an agreement by the owner or a lessee of the land not to permit any person (other than the persons identified in the agreement) to construct an onshore wind generating station on the land;
“planning permission” means—
(a) consent under section 36 of this Act,
(b) 1990 Act permission,
(c) 1997 Act permission, or
(d) development consent under the Planning Act 2008.
32LK The investment freezing condition
(1) This section applies for the purposes of sections 32LH and 32LI.
(2) The investment freezing condition is met in respect of an onshore wind generating station if the documents specified in subsection (4) were provided to the Authority with the application for accreditation of the station.
(3) The investment freezing condition is met in respect of additional capacity if the documents specified in subsection (4) were provided to the Authority on or before the date on which the Authority made its decision that the additional capacity could form part of an onshore wind generating station.
(4) The documents specified in this subsection are—
(a) a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, as at the Royal Assent date—
(i) the relevant developer required funding from a recognised lender before the station could be commissioned or additional capacity could form part of the station,
(ii) a recognised lender was not prepared to provide that funding until enactment of the Energy Act 2016, because of uncertainty over whether the Act would be enacted or its wording if enacted, and
(iii) the station would have been commissioned, or the additional capacity would have formed part of the station, on or before 31 March 2017 if the funding had been provided before the Royal Assent date, and
(b) a letter or other document, dated on or before the date which is 28 days after the Royal Assent date, from a recognised lender confirming (whether or not the confirmation is subject to any conditions or other terms) that the lender was not prepared to provide funding in respect of the station or additional capacity until enactment of the Energy Act 2016, because of uncertainty over whether the Act would be enacted or its wording if enacted.
(5) In this section—
“recognised lender” means a provider of debt finance which has been issued with an investment grade credit rating by a registered credit rating agency;
“the Royal Assent date” means the date on which the Energy Act 2016 is passed.
(6) For the purposes of the definition of “recognised lender” in subsection (5)—
“investment grade credit rating” means a credit rating commonly understood by registered credit rating agencies to be investment grade;
“registered credit rating agency” means a credit rating agency registered in accordance with Regulation (EC) No 1060/2009 of the European Parliament and the Council of 16 September 2009 on credit rating agencies.
32LL The grid or radar delay condition
(1) This section applies for the purposes of sections 32LE, 32LG and 32LI.
(2) The grid or radar delay condition is met in respect of an onshore wind generating station if, on or before the date on which the Authority made its decision to accredit the station, the documents specified in subsection (4), (5) or (6) were—
(a) submitted by the operator of the station, and
(b) received by the Authority.
(3) The grid or radar delay condition is met in respect of additional capacity if, on or before the date on which the Authority made its decision that the additional capacity could form part of an onshore wind generating station, the documents specified in subsection (4), (5) or (6) were—
(a) submitted by the operator of the station, and
(b) received by the Authority.
(4) The documents specified in this subsection are—
(a) evidence of an agreement with a network operator (“the relevant network operator”) to carry out grid works in relation to the station or additional capacity (“the relevant grid works”);
(b) a copy of a document written by, or on behalf of, the relevant network operator which estimated or set a date for completion of the relevant grid works (“the planned grid works completion date”) which was no later than the primary date;
(c) a letter from the relevant network operator confirming (whether or not such confirmation is subject to any conditions or other terms) that—
(i) the relevant grid works were completed after the planned grid works completion date, and
(ii) in the relevant network operator’s opinion, the failure to complete the relevant grid works on or before the planned grid works completion date was not due to any breach by a generating station developer of any agreement with the relevant network operator; and
(d) a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, the station would have been commissioned, or the additional capacity would have formed part of the station, on or before the primary date if the relevant grid works had been completed on or before the planned grid works completion date.
(5) The documents specified in this subsection are—
(a) evidence of an agreement between a generating station developer and a person who is not a generating station developer (“the radar works agreement”) for the carrying out of radar works (“the relevant radar works”);
(b) a copy of a document written by, or on behalf of, a party to the radar works agreement (other than a generating station developer) which estimated or set a date for completion of the relevant radar works (“the planned radar works completion date”) which was no later than the primary date;
(c) a letter from a party to the radar works agreement (other than a generating station developer) confirming, whether or not such confirmation is subject to any conditions or other terms, that—
(i) the relevant radar works were completed after the planned radar works completion date, and
(ii) in that party’s opinion, the failure to complete the relevant radar works on or before the planned radar works completion date was not due to any breach of the radar works agreement by a generating station developer; and
(d) a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, the station would have been commissioned, or the additional capacity would have formed part of the station, on or before the primary date if the relevant radar works had been completed on or before the planned radar works completion date.
(6) The documents specified in this subsection are—
(a) the documents specified in subsection (4)(a), (b) and (c);
(b) the documents specified in subsection (5)(a), (b) and (c); and (c) a declaration by the operator of the station that, to the best of the operator’s knowledge and belief, the station would have been commissioned, or the additional capacity would have formed part of the station, on or before the primary date if—
(i) the relevant grid works had been completed on or before the planned grid works completion date, and
(ii) the relevant radar works had been completed on or before the planned radar works completion date.
(7) In this section “the primary date” means—
(a) in a case within section 32LE(a)(i) or (b)(i) and (ii), 31 March 2016;
(b) in a case within section 32LG(a)(i) and (ii) or (b)(i) to (iii), 31 March 2017;
(c) in a case within section 32LI(a)(i) and (ii) or (b)(i) to (iii), 31 December 2017.”
(3) In section 32M (interpretation of sections 32 to 32M)—
(a) in subsection (1), for “32LB” substitute “32LL”;
(b) at the appropriate places insert the following definitions—
““accredited”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station, means accredited by the Authority as a generating station which is capable of generating electricity from renewable sources; and “accredit” and “accreditation” are to be construed accordingly;”;
““additional capacity”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station, means any generating capacity which does not form part of the original capacity of the station;”;
““commissioned”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station, means having completed such procedures and tests in relation to the station as constitute, at the time they are undertaken, the usual industry standards and practices for commissioning that type of generating station in order to demonstrate that it is capable of commercial operation;”;
““generating station developer”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station or additional capacity, means—
(a) the operator of the station, or
(b) a person who arranged for the construction of the station or additional capacity;”;
““grid works”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station, means—
(a) the construction of a connection between the station and a transmission or distribution system for the purpose of enabling electricity to be conveyed from the station to the system, or
(b) the carrying out of modifications to a connection between the station and a transmission or distribution system for the purpose of enabling an increase in the amount of electricity that can be conveyed over that connection from the station to the system;”;
““licensed network operator” means a distribution licence holder or a transmission licence holder;”; ““network operator” means a distribution exemption holder, a distribution licence holder or a transmission licence holder;”;
““onshore wind generating station” has the meaning given by section 32LC(3);”;
““original capacity”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station, means the generating capacity of the station as accredited;”;
““radar works” means—
(a) the construction of a radar station, (b) the installation of radar equipment,
(c) the carrying out of modifications to a radar station or radar equipment, or
(d) the testing of a radar station or radar equipment;”;
““relevant developer”, in relation to an onshore wind generating station or additional capacity, means a person who—
(a) applied for planning permission for the station or additional capacity,
(b) arranged for grid works to be carried out in relation to the station or additional capacity,
(c) arranged for the construction of any part of the station or additional capacity,
(d) constructed any part of the station or additional capacity, or
(e) operates, or proposes to operate, the station;”.”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 8.
“Onshore wind power: use of Northern Ireland certificates
(1) The Electricity Act 1989 is amended as follows. (2) Before section 32M insert—
“32LM Use of Northern Ireland certificates: onshore wind power
(1) The Secretary of State may make regulations providing that an electricity supplier may not discharge its renewables obligation (or its obligation in relation to a particular period) by the production to the Authority of a relevant Northern Ireland certificate, except in the circumstances, and to the extent, specified in the regulations.
(2) A “relevant Northern Ireland certificate” is a Northern Ireland certificate issued in respect of electricity generated after 31 March 2016 (or any later date specified in the regulations)—
(a) using the original capacity of a Northern Ireland onshore wind generating station accredited after 31 March 2016 (or any later date so specified), or
(b) using additional capacity of a Northern Ireland onshore wind generating station, where in the Authority’s view the additional capacity first formed part of the station after 31 March 2016 (or any later date so specified).
(3) In this section—
“NIRO Order” means any order made under Articles 52 to 55F of the Energy (Northern Ireland) Order 2003;
“Northern Ireland certificate” means a renewables obligation certificate issued by the Northern Ireland authority under the Energy (Northern Ireland) Order 2003 and pursuant to a NIRO Order;
“Northern Ireland onshore wind generating station” means a generating station that—
(a) generates electricity from wind, and
(b) is situated in Northern Ireland, but not in waters in or adjacent to Northern Ireland up to the seaward limits of the territorial sea.
(4) Power to make provision in a renewables obligation order by virtue of section 32F (and any provision contained in such an order) is subject to provision contained in regulations under this section.
(5) This section is not otherwise to be taken as affecting power to make provision in a renewables obligation order.
(6) Regulations under this section may amend a renewables obligation order.
(7) Section 32K applies in relation to regulations under this section as it applies in relation to a renewables obligation order.”
(3) In section 32M (interpretation)—
(a) in subsection (1), for “32LB” substitute “32LM”;
(b) in subsection (7), for “32L” substitute “32LM”.”
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 9.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, Commons Amendment 9 removes a clause that was inserted on Report in this House. This aspect of carbon accounting has been debated throughout the passage of the Bill, with amendments tabled in this House and the other place. I am sure many noble Lords will recall the debates; I will briefly go through the carbon accounting technicalities.
The Climate Change Act sets a target for the United Kingdom to reduce emissions by 80% by 2050, compared to 1990 levels. It also requires the Government to set intermediate targets to reduce emissions along the way—these are the carbon budgets. Carbon budgets are a cap on the emissions allowed over successive five-year periods. For example, the first carbon budget covered the period 2008 to 2012, and we met this budget with 36 million tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent to spare. We set these carbon budgets 12 years in advance, so by 30 June this year we will be setting the fifth carbon budget, covering the period 2028 to 2032.
As well as setting each carbon budget, we also make regulations which set carbon accounting rules for each budget period. These rules, in addition to what is set out in the Climate Change Act, tell us how to calculate those budgets and, therefore, whether we have met them. Under the current rules, we count the United Kingdom’s actual emissions for some sectors, and for other sectors we reflect how the EU emissions trading system works. For transport, buildings, agriculture, light manufacturing and some other areas we count the UK’s actual emissions. For the power sector and heavy industry, we effectively reflect how the EU ETS works, instead of counting the UK’s actual emissions.
The EU ETS is a scheme in which emissions from power and heavy industry are capped and reduced at an EU level. Emissions are reduced by issuing a declining number of emissions allowances to member states which are then traded by power stations and industrial sites across the EU. Our current carbon accounting rules tell us to count the UK share of the EU ETS emissions cap for the purpose of carbon budgets. In this way, carbon budgets reflect how the EU ETS works. Noble Lords will recall that the previous amendments tabled in both Houses would have stopped us from reflecting how the EU ETS works in our accounting from carbon budget 5 onwards. We have been clear on the reasons why we cannot accept this approach at this time.
In short, this is a very complex issue. There are arguments for and against different accounting methods, and weighing these up needs careful consideration of a number of factors, such as potential impacts on consumers, businesses and industry, and cutting emissions at least cost. At the moment, we are focused on setting the fifth carbon budget, and doing that by 30 June this year, as required by the Climate Change Act. We are doing this on the basis that it will be permissible to adopt the current accounting framework. Including these provisions in the Bill would have risked delaying setting the fifth carbon budget. It would have therefore risked missing the statutory deadline and not complying with the Climate Change Act.
Commons Amendment 12 is a technical amendment that reflects the fact that the clause on the United Kingdom carbon account was removed in Committee in the other place. It amends the Long Title of the Bill accordingly. I beg to move.
Lord Grantchester’s Amendment to the Motion on Commons Amendment 9
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, I thank noble Lords who have participated in the debate on the carbon accounting process and in particular the noble Baroness, Lady Worthington, who I know feels strongly about this issue. She will know that we have spoken about it at some length and probably have a measure of agreement on many of the principles. I will perhaps not go into the details of why we are not able to move forward in some respects, although we feel that her amendment as drafted, requiring regulations on carbon accounting by the end of 2017, is impractical because of the understandable obligations to consult with the devolved Administrations and so on. There are issues with the detail. I will not go into other aspects of it, except to say that we certainly recognise the need to address some of these concerns. There are other issues with carbon accounting that distort, as things stand, such as international aviation and international marine.
Let me address some of the points made by my noble friend Lord Howell. I do not want to get sidetracked on to steel because that issue was addressed yesterday in a Statement. Electricity costs are certainly an issue and a factor, but of course it goes far beyond that, as I am sure that my noble friend would acknowledge. Tata in Port Talbot has a blast furnace, so the electricity costs are less significant there than they would be if it were an arc furnace, which is one of the issues to be looked at. The Government are looking at that in the round to see what we can do there, but again it is not simple. It is not just about altering the carbon accounting rules, as there are issues obviously about state aid, the World Trade Organization and so on. It is a complex issue. I hope that I have been able to cover why we are unable to accept the amendments to the Motion at this time.
Baroness Worthington
Before the Minister sits down, could he be a bit clearer about this? We have obviously taken on board the very sensible comments of the Minister of State in the other place, having looked at the debate in detail. We do not wish to pre-empt the outcome of a review but we do think that, taken in the round, this Energy Bill does not seem to be in keeping with its time and place in history. It is many months after Paris, where we committed to trying to get this big issue of the global climate back on track. Can the Minister not just look again at this and precisely give us the reason why?
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
I think the noble Baroness is aware of the reasons why. I do not want to be provoked into going into some of the discussions we have had, but it is not as if she is unaware of some of the reasons why we cannot progress. I do not want to go into those in any detail except to say—
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Let me just finish this point. We are not unsympathetic to the principle of looking at this—I think I have made that clear—but we do not feel it is timely to do it at the moment in the way suggested. I do not really want to go any further than that.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I thank the Minister for giving way and I do not wish to take up the time of the House, but I interrupt because it is not reasonable—
Lord Teverson
I am sorry, but I do not think it is right procedurally for the Minister to say that he has had a private conversation with another Member of the House or that that is a sufficient answer when the rest of the House is not privy to that conversation. That is not reasonable.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
It is perfectly in order for me to have discussions with other Members. I have indicated that there is some sympathy for looking at the accounting principles—but not, as I indicated in my speech, at this time. I have indicated that the timetable is unrealistic. I hope that in the future we can look at these issues, but the Government do not feel it is timely to do it in the way suggested. That is something that has been shared with other Members: there is no great secrecy about that.
Lord Grantchester
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken this afternoon and thank the Minister for the considered way he has responded to issues. On reflection, following the wider debate, I conclude it would be best to press the Government more strongly to be more certain about the outcome of the review. I will therefore not press the amendment in my name, but instead support the amendment in the name of my noble friend Lady Worthington. She is a recognised expert on climate change and a very forceful advocate that the UK must take strong, decisive action to reduce emissions to mitigate its effects.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Moved by
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 10.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Moved by
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 11.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
My Lords, Commons Amendment 11 is a technical amendment that was inserted to avoid infringing the financial privileges of the other place. Now that the money and ways and means Motions have been passed, the short title of the Bill can accordingly be amended. I beg to move.
Lord Bourne of Aberystwyth
Moved by
That this House do agree with the Commons in their Amendment 12.