Lord Bishop of Wakefield
Main Page: Lord Bishop of Wakefield (Bishops - Bishops)Groceries Code Adjudicator Bill [HL]
Lord Bishop of Wakefield Excerpts
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
My Lords, I support the amendment. My commitment to the issues lying behind the legislation goes back a very long way. In terms of suppliers and retailers, it is rooted in the issues of the locality in which I have lived for the past nine or 10 years. This instinct has been reinforced by my experience more widely. Wherever possible, I have been trying to urge us to move forward on this and it is greatly encouraging to see that something is happening at last. At the root of this is the issue of the fairness of the market. Going back many years, when there were lots of debates about how effectively employers and employees were represented in the labour market, the key issues were its fairness and whether the balance of power was too strong in one direction or the other. That is the problem with which we are dealing. Anything that we can do to ensure that the legislation as finally enacted gives the adjudicator proper teeth so that abuses can be addressed. Some of the abuses that have come to my knowledge have been quite hair-raising. I hope that we support this amendment and that we make sure, if it appears that what is required is being ignored, that we allow the adjudicator the possibility of taking other forms of enforcement.
Lord Borrie
It is very useful to have the views of the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Wakefield. He has attached his name to one or two amendments later, so we look forward to further contributions from him. I agree with my noble friend’s wish to ensure that if recommendations made by the adjudicator are not carried forward, he or she can come back to the Bill to see what other action can be taken, including the possibility of financial penalties.
Addressing a question to the Minister rather than to my noble friend, who proposed the amendment, Clause 6 states,
“the Adjudicator may take one or more of the following enforcement measures … recommendations … information to be published … impose financial penalties”.
I wonder whether the Bill already enables the adjudicator to go from one to the other if the first proposal—recommendations—is not accepted, or is it the Minister’s view that he can do only one of those things and not come back and open up lines of discussion as to whether one of the other measures can be taken later?
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
My Lords, once again I support the general tenor of the amendments. Some of the same issues that were raised by the noble Lord, Lord Browne of Ladyton, in the previous debate are here. It seems to be about complexity, and the ability to take action swiftly is crucial. The Minister talked about fairness to retailers but it seems to me that part of the issue is getting fairness into the system. There is a clear unfairness to suppliers and it is once again about trying to change the culture and address the question of balance within the market.
I shall give two examples. The first concerns an individual retailer who insisted that a particular supplier of dairy products must, if he wanted to continue to be a supplier across the board of this very large retailer, pay a premium of £150,000. Without that premium the products would no longer be retailed in a very large number of stores within the chain. The supplier refused for two reasons. First, he felt that there was a lack of morality in the demand and secondly, he could not afford to do it. Happily he was switched on enough to be in touch with people who immediately complained that they could no longer get the products. In our marvellous electronic world, he was able to send them down the road to another local retailer. That is one example with one retailer.
The other example, which we all know about only too well, has been a continuing debate in the past 10 years on the issue of milk suppliers and getting a fair price for milk. Here it involves not just one retailer but a series of retailers acting together in their own best interests. I can understand their best interests. Perhaps if I were one of them I might want to push the same line. But in the end, it has the effect of driving suppliers into an impossible position.
First, we need swift action because it soon becomes clear that whatever legislation we produce is effectively weak as it gets pushed back all the time. Secondly, I take the debate about naming and shaming, and costs, but I only have to refer noble Lords to yesterday’s news about Barclays Bank. Whether the management of that bank will survive in their present roles, I have no idea, but it will not do them very much good to find that they have to pay £290 million in fines. I am not suggesting that we are talking about that level of fine here, but unless there are serious mandatory controls, we shall enact legislation that in principle is thoroughly positive and good, but which in practice does not get the market more evenly balanced.
Lord Borrie
My Lords, I am very happy to follow the right reverend Prelate as I agree entirely with everything that he said. He gave useful examples. I attached my name to the amendment tabled by the noble Baroness, Lady Byford, because I was convinced—I think I said something like this at Second Reading—that this provision should be in the Bill rather than there being just a possibility of a statutory instrument being laid at some later stage, with all the delays and question marks that that would involve. It should be in the Bill that there is a possibility of a financial penalty.
The noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, used a word with which I entirely agree, saying that the Government’s approach by not putting the power in the Bill is cumbersome. It is a cumbersome way of going about things. I am so glad that the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles, is here. If I may refer to some of the things he said earlier this afternoon, if this power goes into the Bill, I do not envisage the adjudicator taking a great deal of time thinking about penalties, the amount, and all the rest of it. I use a word most often used in criminal law, which I hope will appeal to my noble friend—deterrence. The possibility of a financial penalty —whether anywhere near that imposed by the Financial Services Authority on the bank yesterday—has a deterrent effect that is extremely important. The adjudicator will not be judged on the amounts of fines that he imposes to prove that he is a good or a useful man in his post—he will be judged as much by the effect of his powers upon the industry.
Lord Teverson
My Lords, I shall speak to my Amendment 49. There is an opportunity here, as the noble Lord, Lord Grantchester has said, to be a little more innovative. I have certainly put down one suggestion in my own amendment, though I am not saying that it is exactly the right way to go. At this stage, we are talking about the principle.
I know that the Government are often concerned about what they would see as creeping hypothecation, and that fines should generally go into the Consolidated Fund. However, I was interested to read the Statement today from my right honourable friend the Chancellor of the Exchequer about the Barclays crisis, where he stated that fines paid to the FSA are used to reduce the annual levy on other financial institutions. We have an example there of where such fines do not go into the Consolidated Fund, as pointed out very conveniently by the Chancellor. If anyone knows about these Treasury issues, it is probably him—we hope, at least.
The Chancellor goes on to say that he wants to change that, and that proceeds of fines should go back into the Consolidated Fund. The reason that he is iffy about that system is that the money goes back to the financial sector. Here, we are not suggesting that it should go back to the rest of the retail sector; we are suggesting it should go to the people whom this Bill is trying to protect and promote—that is, the supply chain. There is an opportunity here for innovation, for goodwill and for common sense. I do not think that it will be the end of the Treasury trying to meet its targets in reducing the public debt. It will not be that significant, but it will be important to the industry.
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
My Lords, I need to leave fairly soon, so I want to add something about this particular suggestion. I want to address also a broader point, since this is tied into the whole issue of financial penalties.
I was grateful to the Minister for her comment about changing culture. This is another small way in which the culture might be changed. But the crucial issue we need to grasp is that changing any culture will require whether we like it or not—and it is not a pleasant word—coercion. That is at the heart of much of what we are saying here. I do not know enough about the latest statistics to be able to respond to what the noble Viscount, Lord Eccles said a few moments ago, but, certainly, in our part of the world dairy farms are still closing and, certainly, an analysis of the past 10 years would show that the capacity for milk production has reduced. I do not know what the figures are for importing milk, but I think they have gone up significantly over these years.
All these things lead us back to innovation, which seems to be a key word to use. It is a positive word. It goes back to changing cultures and is not about punishing people. It is about trying to find a proper balance within the market, so that suppliers and retailers are doing something which has a synthesising effect: they are working together. Therefore, I hope very much that some sort of response will come from the Government at this stage. If it does not, I fear that these same questions will be asked on Report. I would gently support this pair of amendments, but in the end they push us back to the same issues that we have been looking at. If we do not face those issues, we shall still end up in a situation where we do not alter the present culture.
Viscount Eccles
Before the right reverend Prelate sits down, can I ask him whether he believes that coercion is the only way to change culture?
The Lord Bishop of Wakefield
No. It depends on what you mean by “coercion”, which can mean something very unpleasant indeed. It does mean that people will not necessarily change the way that they operate simply because we ask them to be nicer. That is the point. We know that, otherwise we would not have produced the sort of legislation that we are debating today. Even if we do not go down some of the roads that we have been debating, the whole Bill seems imply that the adjudicator must have some powers by which the present situation is changed. How you want to use the word “coercion” is another matter. I would not want it to be overpressed. After all, the worst form of coercion always leads to war and that is not what we are talking about—we are talking about precisely the opposite—but it will need firmness and robustness.
Baroness Wilcox
My Lords, the amendments being discussed here are very interesting. However, in considering them it is important to remember the purpose of the financial penalties. The financial penalties in this context, if they are imposed, are supposed to be punitive rather than restitutory or to fund any particular activity.
The amendments of my noble friends Lord Teverson and Lord Razzall raise two difficulties with regard to paying any of the proceeds to a supplier. First and most fundamentally, an investigation does not determine the liability of a retailer with respect to any individual supplier. Given this fact, it would be inappropriate to pay all or part of the fine to the supplier. Any supplier who did wish to reclaim damages from a retailer would be able to do so using the arbitration provision in Clause 2.
The second reason is linked to the climate of fear. One of the key drivers of this Bill is the need to address this problem. One of the principal reasons for investigations, as they are set out in the Bill, is to allow suppliers to complain in confidence to the adjudicator, who can then carry out an independent investigation. If an adjudicator began making payments to individual suppliers, it would become obvious who had complained and open up those suppliers to potential retribution from a retailer.
I turn to the amendments of the noble Lords, Lord Knight of Weymouth and Lord Grantchester. Given that financial penalties are a civil sanction, it would be inappropriate for financial penalties to be paid to a supplier or to a third party which did work that supported the groceries sector. In accordance with the standard principles of managing public money, financial penalties are therefore to be paid to the Consolidated Fund.