Public Authorities (Fraud, Error and Recovery) Bill

Lord Bishop of Leicester Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 21st October 2025 Lords Chamber

I hope that my noble friend the Minister can give us some assurances along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, which would mean that he does not feel it necessary to press the amendment.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, I am pleased to have added my name to this amendment. As this is the first time that I have spoken at this stage, I want to thank the Ministers for their careful consideration of the concerns raised by noble Lords, as well as all those who have engaged with such diligence on this matter. For the record, this is an important Bill. Attempts to commit fraud will not stop as a result of this Bill—that will never be possible—but it will be far harder for those making these attempts, and that is absolutely right, as is the ability to recover overpayments.

The principles behind this amendment are fairness in the face of the various reasons for an overpayment being made, including error by the department, and affordability, ensuring that those already in poverty are not pushed further into it. Let us remember who will bear the brunt of these new powers: people who are reliant on benefits, which independent research suggests are already insufficient to meet people’s basic needs. With the requirement to pay off their debts via universal credit deductions of up to 15% of the standard allowance, there is a real risk that many will, I fear, be pushed even deeper into poverty.

It is not a trivial number of people who will be affected. According to a DWP Freedom of Information Act response in 2023-24, nearly 900,000 new overpayment debts were entered on DWP’s debt management system, nearly 80% of which were recorded as caused by official error. The amendment before us offers a constructive path to stop people being pushed into even more precarious circumstances. By introducing a clear limit on how far back overpayment recovery can go, it would bring predictability and restraint to the process. People should not live in fear that an administrative slip-up made a decade ago will suddenly resurface as a bill they cannot hope to pay. Other areas of law recognise the principle of limitation periods and so should we here. Equally, by requiring an affordability assessment, the amendment would ensure that any repayment plans are fair, sustainable and consistent with human dignity. This is for the good of the individuals but also of the Government. If the state appears heavy-handed then confidence in the integrity of our welfare system, which is the thrust of this whole Bill, is undermined.

The amendment would not weaken the fight against fraud. It does not seek to excuse dishonesty or to diminish accountability. It seeks to uphold the Government’s stated objective of ensuring that recovery of overpayments is done in a fair and affordable way. I urge the Minister to take these concerns into account, in particular the suggestions of the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, on how these concerns can be addressed practically. I, like others, will not be pushing for a Division on this matter, but I seek real reassurance from the Government.

[Baroness Finn (Con)]

My Lords, I speak in strong support of this amendment, so ably tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, and supported by the noble Baroness, Lady Lister, and the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Leicester, and to which I am pleased to have added my name.

The amendment speaks across so many of the principles that have underpinned our debates and the position that we on these Benches have adopted throughout Committee and Report—fairness, proportionality, transparency and responsibility. This amendment is about finding this balance and ensuring that the recovery of overpaid public funds is carried out in a way that is both effective and humane.

We have been clear from the outset that we support the core objectives of this Bill. Public money that has been wrongly paid out, whether through error or fraud, must be recovered. We owe that duty to the taxpayer and the integrity of our public finances. Equally, it is a duty of government to ensure that such recovery is done in a way that is fair, measured and responsible, does not impose unnecessary hardship, recognises the realities of individual circumstances and upholds confidence in the system.

This amendment embodies precisely that balance. It would establish clear and necessary safeguards before deductions are made from a person’s benefits. It would require that the liable person be notified of the rate and the basis of deduction, and, crucially, that they be given the opportunity to make representations about affordability. It would insist that deductions should proceed only where the Secretary of State is satisfied that recovery will not cause hardship in meeting essential living expenses and that the process is fair in all circumstances, including where the overpayment may have arisen through official delay or error. Sensibly, it seeks to sets a six-year limit for recovery, in line with the limitation period that applies through the courts. In other words, this amendment would ensure that the state exercises its right to recover the money in a way that is just, proportionate and accountable, and would align the recovery of overpayments through benefit deductions with the very same principles of fairness and restraint that we have already built into Schedule 5 in relation to deductions from bank accounts.

Throughout our scrutiny of this legislation, we have repeatedly emphasised that good governance is not simply about having the power to act but about exercising that power responsibly. This amendment reflects that philosophy perfectly. It strikes the right equilibrium between fiscal responsibility and social justice and between protecting the taxpayer and those who may already be in vulnerable situations. I thank the noble Lord, Lord Verdirame, for bringing forward this thoughtful and well-crafted proposal. It would strengthen the Bill, give legislative effect to the principles of transparency, fairness and proportionality, and ensure that, in pursuing the legitimate goal of recovering public funds, we do so in a manner that remains worthy of public trust. This is a measured, sensible and responsible amendment and we are very pleased to support it. I hope the Minister will give welcome assurances on it.

Child Poverty Strategy

Lord Bishop of Leicester Excerpts

Wednesday 10th September 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the noble Baroness for her kind words. I am very grateful and I agree with her very much indeed on that—I am very glad to be here as well.

She makes a really important point. One of the reasons we have taken our time and been thoughtful about the child poverty strategy is that it cannot ever be just about income transfers. The strategy will be looking across four key themes. Increasing incomes is one of them, but so is reducing essential costs, increasing financial resilience for families and looking at better local support, especially in the early years. We must take action across all those if we are to find a way to tackle the scourge of child poverty in this country in a way that builds in structural improvements for the future. She makes an important point.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, my question is also not about the two-child limit, though I am fully supportive of its removal. Can the Minister say something about listening to the voices of children and young people within the formation of the strategy and give some examples of how the voices of children and young people have maybe changed the mind of the Government in their approach?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I am grateful to the right reverend Prelate. The task force has engaged astonishingly widely. The Children’s Commissioner was commissioned to do listening events directly with children, to hear their voices. A lot of work has gone on listening to organisations, families and parents, but listening to children describing their own experiences sometimes brings out things that the Government and even those organisations would not have thought of.

In terms of the wider groups, I have been able to do a little bit of this, even though it is not quite in my portfolio. However, the right reverend Prelate’s right reverend friend the Bishop of Derby very kindly invited me up to Derby to meet families at a family hub and to look at what the local authority and the faith groups were doing. Every time this happens, I am blown away by the resilience of individual families and the power of local communities, faith groups and local authorities to work together to make the lives of their communities better. The more we can engage with that and the more we can hear their voices, the better we are going to do this.

Universal Credit: Two-child Limit

Lord Bishop of Leicester Excerpts

Wednesday 9th July 2025 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

My Lords, since the noble Viscount’s Government brought in the policy, he probably does not need me to remind him there are exceptions—for example, those involved in kinship care and those who have produced a child as a result of non-consensual conception, who can be exempted if they can produce evidence of having been raped and the conception being the result of that, or if they can find another way to account for that. However, this is not the driver behind the Government’s action. This Government want to make the lives of children and families better. I make no apologies for starting off by looking at the terrible rise in child poverty over the last 14 years, and I cheered the Prime Minister when one of his early actions was to set up a cross-government child poverty task force and a unit to look at the full range of drivers of that. If our children grow up in poverty, it has a scarring effect that they do not recover from. If we do nothing else in our time in government, we need to find a way to address this, and I hope this could eventually be the cross-party view.

During the last Labour Government, I worked in the Treasury advising Gordon Brown and had to tackle child poverty. We set up Sure Start and invested in all kinds of programmes, and I sat in this House and watched many of them being dismantled when I went into opposition. If we are going to find a way to make the country better for all our children, we surely need to agree on how we tackle child poverty and stop it recurring generation after generation.

[The Lord Bishop of Leicester]

My Lords, reference has already been made to the Children’s Commissioner’s report published yesterday, which gives voice to the experiences of children and young people in poverty. It makes for harrowing reading, including one boy who was faced with the choice of going hungry or eating mouldy food, and many other such difficult stories. Will the Minister commit to ensuring that all the Government’s work on welfare will be based on the human dignity and equal value of every person in this country?

[Baroness Sherlock (Lab)]

I thank the right reverend Prelate for that, and, indeed, for the work that he and his colleagues do in this area. Like him, one of the reasons I was so glad to see the report, even though it is hard reading for the Government and for everyone, is that it talks about individual stories and the experience of individuals. There is always a risk when we are trying to make decisions at a macro level that we forget how they are experienced at the micro level of the individual. One of the things the task force has done is to have lots of encounters with families and children. It has worked with Save the Children to hear from children, and it has worked with the Children’s Commissioner. I was very grateful that, as part of the process, his colleague the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Derby welcomed me to Derby to meet a range of faith organisations working on many different aspects and trying to join up the support given to families with children. His point about, in essence, the inalienable worth of every individual is one I am very happy to approve.