Brexit: UK-Irish Relations

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 5th September 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Jay for his speech introducing this debate today. It was very skilful and very important. I cannot stop myself saying that I am not sure how often we hear David Davis supported in his view, that the border issues cannot be sorted out in absence of the trade issues being sorted out, by my noble friend Lord Jay and the noble Lord, Lord Dubs, in the same debate in the House of Lords. I think that is definitely a first: David Davis is not used to quite that range and quality of support on European issues. What they both said is, by the way, absolutely true. I also add my good wishes for the recovery of the noble Lord, Lord Boswell.

I voted yes in the referendum, even though I was very sympathetic to my English family’s arguments for leaving the European Union and thought they had many good arguments. I wanted to stay within the European Union, I was a remainer, simply because I thought it would be very destabilising for the island of Ireland. In fact, Brexit has been indisputably destabilising for the island of Ireland. For Sinn Fein it has been a marvellous thing: the days are long gone, but I am old enough to remember, as I think is the noble Lord, Lord Empey, when the slogan of the previous leader of Sinn Fein, Ruairí Ó Brádaigh, was, “Don’t replace the British jack-boot with the EU cheque-book”. That principle, for what it is worth, has been entirely lost now in modern Irish politics.

Mind you, I am also old enough to remember when the defining principle for Irish life was, “We are the largest English-speaking Catholic country in the world. We may not be the largest Catholic country, but we are the largest English-speaking Catholic country—that is our mission”. Today I discovered that the mission really is, “We are the largest English-speaking country in the European Union”. That is another transformation over the generations.

However, it has been a marvellous thing for Sinn Fein, whose vote has gone up, and even the most modern Irish nationalist tends to see Brexit as an irrational act of self-harm by Britain. All over the island, that will be held. What is hidden from that discussion is that it is also a deep, deep threat, especially with the way the European Union is handling it, to the future of the Irish economy. It is therefore a fear as well. I wanted to stress the point that I was a remainer in order to put in context my great unease about the way the European Union is handling the Irish issue at the moment.

Turning to our own paper, the suggestion seems to be perfectly reasonable that the British and Irish Governments should get together and work out an appropriate solution with the European Union. We all know why that is not happening. We all know why so many things are not happening. It is because they do not fit with the framework of European law and are not being supported by the European Union. Here, I also have to say something very important. The great strength of the document that my noble friend Lord Jay introduced today is its insistence on the depth of the British-Irish relationship and how profound it is. That is not understood in Europe. It is therefore creating a consequence in the way they are handling or talking about these issues. Then they are surprised, in the last two weeks, when something that they thought they could use as a stick to twig the British with does not work quite like that; it is a bit more complicated than that. That is because they have not thought about what that relationship really is.

The crucial thing here—let us take a simple figure—is that there are 600,000 Irish citizens living in Britain. The number of Irish citizens living in another European country, one with which it has great associations, France, is fewer than 10,000. This is the crucial place for Ireland. Ireland has all kinds of political reasons not to talk too much about that, but that is the simple reality. If we had said, in the document that has been much criticised, that the common travel area is something we are not going to defend, the consequences for Ireland would have been disastrous. We received no credit for taking a liberal and decent position on this, but it is worth saying that it was important that we took that position.

We have to be aware of a difficulty here, which is that Ireland is now between a rock and a hard place, in that the European Union is not being particularly sympathetic to many of its real concerns but is being sympathetic about something which is not that important: the border. To be absolutely honest, this matter of individuals and the border will be sorted. I am delighted to discover that some people who regarded smuggling as morally not an easy matter but something you had to live with, when it was for the peace process, now discover that, when it is a consequence of Brexit, it is the worst thing that could ever possibly happen in the world; these moral developments are all part of the rich tapestry of modern life. None the less, the crucial thing is the impact on the full Irish economy. If I see another television report of a farmer saying, “Here’s my farm, here’s my bit of land; this is in the UK and that bit is in the Republic”, I am going to be ill. Television reporters love it because it is a dramatic image, a simple image, but the real issue is what is happening to the Irish economy as a consequence of Brexit.

Increasingly, by the way, Irish commentators say, “We are talking far too much about the border; let us face up to the real issue”. The real issue is the agri-food industry, which is mentioned in the Lords report. Since the report came out, three major authorities in Dublin—the Central Bank of Ireland, the much-respected Economic and Social Research Institute and the Irish Department of Finance—have all said there will be a major contraction in that sector if there is anything approaching a hard Brexit. It will be particularly hard also on Irish SMEs, which are locked into the UK. It is as simple as that. They are talking about 40,000 job losses. This is the real Ireland. This is the heart of Irish society we are talking about here.

The Irish Government are taking a gamble on their foreign direct investment sector. They are going to gamble that the European Union is never going to deliver on what it is trying to do. We have seen a €9 billion fine already, on one particular tax deal, coming from the European Union. They are going to gamble that Mr Trump, who was talking last month about getting thousands of jobs back from Ireland, is not going to deliver on that either. That may well be true. They might win both gambles. They need to be lucky, but they have a good chance. They have made a decision that foreign direct investment is the sector. It has created 13,000 jobs in recent months. There are some problems, such as big pharma firms. Ireland is the main exporter into the US of pharmaceutical products—made by American firms in Ireland and reimported. This is what Mr Trump says he does not like and some of these firms are holding back. But by and large, the decision is made, and it is a decision which makes Dublin even more the city-state that it is becoming. That is the modern Ireland, against a more traditional Ireland where the social life of much of Ireland is.

No wonder the Irish Government resent us for forcing this decision upon them, but we should not treat statements from them, which are frequently cries of pain, as if they are always considered statesmanlike compared with the absurdities of our own Ministers; nor the way they talk about their relationship with the European Union, where they are in a very difficult position—they want to stay in but have to go along with what the European Union says about these matters. For example, Mr Flanagan, the Foreign Minister, said recently that Ireland is part of the EU family and the British are our colleagues. But by any definition of family, any definition of DNA, we are the family; by any definition at all—including that we quarrel, including that there is money involved. We are up against the deep texture of our relationship with Ireland and a European Union which does not quite understand it; it does not understand why the Irish Chief Whip is now saying that Ireland will need extra support from Europe if there is a hard Brexit. Its view is that it wants to get more money out of Ireland to replace the British money.

These are the sorts of things we should be talking about, not a farmer’s bit of land one side of the border or the other. These are the real difficulties that we now face. If the European Union strategy pushes us into a hard Brexit—if there is no civilised compromise—the consequences for Ireland and then for the European Union will be very unpleasant indeed.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2017

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 18th July 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Belmont (DUP)]

My Lords, I am pleased to support the order which the Minister has announced. I wish an extension such as the one before us was not necessary. None of us wants to have trials without a jury in place, but given the distinct and exceptional circumstances in Northern Ireland, especially in light of the latest intelligence reports indicating that New IRA is regarded as the most dangerous dissident republican group operating since the 1994 ceasefire, this practical and pragmatic decision to renew the provision for non-jury trials for a further two years is to be welcomed. The integrity of the justice system is paramount and must continue to be upheld and protected. The non-jury provisions therefore continue to be a necessary function in supporting the effective delivery of the criminal justice process in certain cases, and sadly it is a reality that the justice system in Northern Ireland simply cannot do without these provisions at this time.

While reflecting on this order, I feel that it is wholly appropriate to pay tribute to all the brave men and women who have served and continue to serve and administer the rule of law, order and justice in what are difficult and challenging circumstances.

Finally, does the Minister agree that the single best way to deliver a brighter and more peaceful future for all in Northern Ireland is by having in place a strong and stable locally elected Assembly? I and my party remain optimistic and hopeful that devolved governance at Stormont can be re-established as soon as practically possible. We see no barriers to forming workable institutions. The onus is on all the parties involved to get together and in a mature manner work out a practical way forward to end the current impasse. I hope that the day will come when all will fully support the security forces and respect the rule of law, and therefore there will be no need for further orders.

[Lord Bew (CB)]

My Lords, I thank the Minister for introducing this extension order, and I fully but reluctantly support it. I am grateful to him for describing so fairly and accurately the security situation that exists in Northern Ireland now.

There is a problem in that the language that the Minister used, which was entirely justified, was actually sharper than we might have expected at this point in the proceedings; that is, 19 years since the Good Friday agreement. My hope is not so much that the Government are keeping this legislation under review and will be able to dispense with it in any reasonable short order, but that the next time the Minister comes to this House, he will at least be able to talk about the security situation in a more relaxed way than quite rightly he has done today.

I have one coda to add. I am probably slightly more optimistic than the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, about the return of devolution in the autumn. If it does return, the questions that he has raised in this debate are very important, and I can think of no reason why Her Majesty’s Government would not remind a new power-sharing Executive, when they are put into place this autumn, of the importance of these issues.

[Lord Morrow (DUP)]

My Lords, I, too, commend the Minister for his clarity on this issue. I would like to state clearly that, as far as my party, the DUP, is concerned, we have consistently argued that in any case where there is a significant risk of jury intimidation or a risk of perverse verdicts, it should be heard by a non-jury trial. Equally, offences motivated or aggravated by sectarianism, and crimes involving paramilitary and serious organised crime, including quasi-paramilitary organisations, should also be heard by a judge alone.

There is no doubt that, over the past 30 years and in extremely difficult circumstances, the Diplock court system served Northern Ireland quite well. It helped prevent jury intimidation and avoided perverse verdicts. I hasten to add that it may also have saved lives. Much of the credit must go to the judges who operated the system. They are to be commended and I do so wholeheartedly this evening.

This may be an imperfect way of administering justice, but it is the most satisfactory in the circumstances that prevail in Northern Ireland. My colleagues and I support the Government’s order. We also look forward to the hasty return of the Northern Ireland Assembly. I wish also to clarify to the House that my party, with the biggest mandate in Northern Ireland, is ready to return to the Assembly tomorrow—without any preconditions, without any ifs, ands or buts. We cannot see any reason why the Northern Ireland Assembly is not up and functioning and delivering for the people of Northern Ireland.

Independent Monitoring Commission for Northern Ireland

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 18th January 2012 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, like other noble Lords, I thank the noble Baroness, Lady Harris of Richmond, for securing this debate. She is well known to be a good friend of Northern Ireland and her work in bringing about this debate is yet another example of what a good friend she is to the Province. I, too, should like to recall briefly the struggle to set up the IMC. I very much agree with the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Trimble. The truth of the matter is that the IMC was not enthusiastically received in the early days of debate by the Northern Ireland Office or the Irish Government. It is hard to recall that now because it has been so successful.

I should like to pay tribute in particular to Michael McDowell, a former Nieman fellow at Harvard and recently an official at the World Bank, who from his position in a Washington think tank kept No. 10 Downing Street under siege with regular e-mails arguing vigorously for the establishment of the IMC in the months leading up to its appointment. Today, I was talking to Jonathan Powell, Mr Blair’s chief of staff at that time, who recalled honestly the weight and significance of Michael McDowell’s constant advocacy. It is important to pay tribute to the work that he put in on that absolutely crucial issue.

Turning to the report itself, I should like it to be understood in your Lordships’ House that the report is not an answer to questions about where Northern Ireland is now and how we move it forward. It is instead an answer to the different question: what was the modus operandi of this body? As the IMC was a unique body, it may be important to describe how it worked. The report is an attempt to answer that question, rather than being in any real sense prescriptive about the future of Northern Ireland, and it is entirely right that that should be and is so. There are a number of conclusions to the report where members of the commission outline what they think are the key lessons.

Perhaps slightly impertinently, I should like to add a further lesson, which one should draw from the experience of the IMC—that is, a willingness to take it on the chin. The degree of criticism and abuse that the IMC received, particularly in the earlier years, was quite remarkable, as well as the strong refusal of many people in Northern Irish society to accept that it could perform a viable role or could be considered to be, in any sense of the word, independent. One of the remarkable things about the report is the way in which it quotes from some of those testimonies, including an article in the Irish News, the leading nationalist newspaper in Belfast, on 29 November 2008, which stated:

“In reality, British intelligence operates through deceit, dishonesty, murder, blackmail, double-crossing, cheating, conniving and downright thuggery. It may sound harsh but there is simply no other way to run an intelligence service. Their use of loyalist paramilitaries and informers beat the PIRA. So the intelligence agencies will tell the IMC whatever it takes to bolster support for the current political administration. That is what intelligence services do, which means that the IMC, and other opinions based on supplied intelligence are effectively worthless”.

That is a common enough comment from this period. It is a mark of the calibre of the IMC and the people who served on it that it reprinted that quote. They took this kind of thing on the chin because that was what they had to do and then carried on with their work in a steady way.

Finally, I am sure that the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, would not mind that we should mention the names of the other members of the commission: Joe Brosnan, of the Department of Justice in Dublin; Dick Kerr, an important figure in American intelligence; and John Grieve, who had such a distinguished career in our police service.

Northern Ireland: Economy

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 19th October 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for securing this important debate on the need to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy. I would also like thank him for his very kind words about me, but to say one thing: he misrepresents the flow of intellectual influence. When the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, was an academic at Queen’s University Belfast in the 1970s, he with Professor John Vincent wrote a book called Governing Passion. For my generation of graduate students, it was a powerful and exciting book that had a huge impact on the way we wrote about politics. I therefore put it on the record that the flow of intellectual influence went that way.

It is important not only to thank the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, for securing this debate but to draw attention to the fact that we have had, at least in the past year or so since the change of Government, a more intense debate about the Northern Ireland economy. Whatever the merits or demerits of the argument about corporation tax, to which I shall come in a minute, it is important that we have had the beginnings of a serious discussion. It has inevitably been delayed because of the whole question of the Troubles and the recovery from them, and the domination of public debate by the need to find a secure settlement.

When the issue of corporation tax first entered the public domain as a crucial subject, my own reaction was initially quite sceptical. I always thought that it was good that we were talking about it because at least we were talking about the need to rebalance the Northern Ireland economy, at least it was a new idea, and at least it was focusing public debate on an economic question. None the less, I was sceptical, and the noble Lord, Lord Lexden, has already referred to part of the reason for it: you could reasonably argue that unionism in the past century had one idea that really worked. That one idea was equality of taxation means equality of services and good things flowing from the London Treasury in return. This was Edward Carson’s idea. It is why, for example, before Irish independence he always supported vigorously in this House expenditure of money by the British state on the west of Ireland. Those of us who know the west of Ireland know that some of the public amenities that you can find there and in the ports are a product of decisions made by the British Treasury before 1916 and 1921. It has always been a logical idea that a unitary state implies a unitary taxation system and a unitary flow of benefits to the citizens in return throughout its regions. That was the ground for my scepticism.

Now that we exist in a different world with devolution in the United Kingdom, there is much conversation about the possibility of the devolved systems having different taxation regimes. It seems widely considered to be entirely compatible with the continuation of the union that one has taxation regimes that are not as simple and uniform as those with which I grew up. There is therefore an argument on that score that uniformity may not as be as important as many people considered it to be in the last century.

There is another simple point: Northern Ireland does not do too badly with foreign direct investment—it actually does better than the other regions of the United Kingdom. It has major problems with the productivity of workers and of the culture, which has been so admirably described in its historical evolution by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, but it does better than other regions of the United Kingdom for FDI.

I began to wonder even so whether it was right that we should talk so much about corporation tax. I looked at the companies that went to the Republic of Ireland, which is obviously Northern Ireland’s major competitor. Many companies, it is argued, go there primarily because of the low level of corporation tax, but most of those companies do not say that. They tend to put it low on their list of reasons for moving to the Republic of Ireland—there was recently a case of a company that was considering Derry but went to Kerry. Companies do not say that corporation tax is the reason; they tend to put it at about number five on their list of reasons. Being a credulous sort of person, I tend to believe them.

But this is where my mind begins to change on this topic; I have begun to rethink. I am not convinced that companies tell us the full truth about their decision-making in this matter. I give an example that has struck home to me in the past 18 months watching the public debate in the Irish Republic. It brings home some of the difficulties for Northern Ireland. Google along with a number of other American companies about 18 months ago began to criticise the educational system in the Irish Republic, saying, “It is not as good as you think it is and this is a problem for us”. The then Irish Minister of Education, Mr Batt O’Keeffe, immediately responded and took these criticisms quite seriously. The new Minister, Ruairi Quinn, has said in a memorable but graphic phrase, “We have been codding ourselves about the quality of our educational system”. The concerns of the American companies were highlighted by a number of international reports that seemed to show that Ireland was sliding down, particularly on the mathematical side. There are great concerns, for example, about the quality of maths in Irish schools now. This crisis has been brilliantly covered by Sean Flynn, the education correspondent of the Irish Times, in a series of magnificent articles. At the turn of the year, he described 2010 as a very bad year for Irish education.

However, in the past few weeks, Google, one of the leading companies making this criticism of the education system, has announced that it is going to Dublin and not to Belfast, which was also a bidder, for a major new investment. So it turns out that you can believe that a society has significant defects in its educational system that create problems for such American companies with what they are looking for in their workforce, but they still, oddly enough, end up in the place with the best tax regime. That is what has made me cynical about the reasons given by companies for acting as they do. Details of that sort enhance the case for corporation tax reform for the benefit of Northern Ireland.

I understand that it is possible that this issue may be stuck. The Treasury has objected, as have a number of very serious economists. There are complications around the issue that are nothing to do with Northern Ireland’s place in the United Kingdom but a lot to do with Scotland and what Scotland wants to do, as has already been alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. If the Treasury is going to say no and if the public argument is going to go against the case for corporation tax, which has been made eloquently by many Northern Irish politicians of all parties and by the Secretary of State, Owen Paterson, we have the problems as outlined by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice. We have the problem of a dependency culture that relies on the state and the Treasury, for reasons that are not the fault of the people of Northern Ireland. What, then, is going to be done? There is perhaps one slight hope: that an unintended consequence of the changes in university fees and the system in operation in the United Kingdom might be that some of the talent that currently goes to English and Scottish universities will stay in Northern Ireland, which might in turn turn out to be a very useful development for the economy.

I understand and respect the arguments of the Treasury going back to the Varney report, which was a serious document, but if the answer is going to be no, the question must be: what else are we going to do? At this point, I am not hearing much else.

Justice and Security (Northern Ireland) Act 2007 (Extension of duration of non-jury trial provisions) Order 2011

Lord Bew Excerpts

Monday 4th July 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Alderdice]

I am grateful to my noble friend for intervening, but in a sense he is already engaging in the process that I was suggesting. I was not suggesting that we immediately jump to that suggestion or any other, but rather that we should engage in a proper process of debate and consultation rather than the more than modest consultation that there was. The noble Lord, Lord Maginnis, has a point when he talks about consultation and communication. If there is a proper consultation over a reasonable period, the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Glentoran, can be engaged with, rather than living in hope that everything will be fine, when all our experience, sadly, is that it has taken a lot longer to get where we want to go than we could ever have imagined.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I offer reluctant but strong support to the noble Lord, Lord Shutt. It may or may not be a comfort to him to know that he stands in a long line of Liberal Ministers, going back to Mr Gladstone in the 19th century, who have been perplexed by the problems created by the Irish tradition of political violence for the legal system, particularly for the process of jury trials. There was a serious argument in the 19th century that such cases should be taken out of Ireland and tried in Liverpool; serious writers argued that that was a way of preserving jury trial. More generally, it was perceived that the inability to have proper legal procedures in cases involving political violence was pointing up a fundamental crisis in Ireland—the failure of the attempt to combine colonialism and democracy—and that this created a context in which terrorism existed.

What is striking about the situation in Northern Ireland now, though, is that by any standards we have a legitimate democratic system. In the most recent Assembly elections, 107 out of 108 Members of that Assembly were fully elected by the people of Northern Ireland and are full supporters of the political arrangements that are in place. In a referendum, the people of Ireland as a whole showed that they support those political arrangements. We now know that it is too sweeping a judgment to say that terrorism arises simply from a denial of democracy, because we have now established a legitimate and democratic system and we still have these problems with democracy and a situation where it would yet be unwise to return to jury trials in terrorism-related cases. I take very seriously the advice from the noble Lord, Lord Carlile, in particular, which the Minister mentioned in his introductory remarks.

Like other noble Lords, I have one caveat, one doubt. It concerns the process of consultation, which seems to have been meagre in this case. A few months ago the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, came to the House with a piece of legislation that reflected electoral law. There, in fact, the consultation was actually wider. In some ways this is a more important matter, going to the heart of where we have reached now in Northern Ireland.

I fully recognise what the Minister describes when he says that the Northern Ireland Office was not overwhelmed with advice on this matter; for a number of reasons, people want to turn their eyes away from this. It is actually difficult to have a lively consultation on it, and the Minister’s remarks in this respect are entirely reasonable and fair. I wonder, though, whether we should be thinking along the lines suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Alderdice, of having a genuine debate. I am not convinced that he is right about the desirability of three judges as a solution in this context, even in the short term, but that does not matter; there is no question that if you said, “We are consulting about this”, you would provoke a substantive debate and much more lively contributions.

I ask the Minister to consider ways in which we could ensure that the next time that he has to come to this House asking for an extension in this respect, if there is a next time, we will be able to say that we have had a proper public consultation and a genuine element of vigour in the debate that occurred beforehand. For reasons that are not his fault or the fault of the Government, he has not been able to say that, but if we took a different approach there might be a way of having a better debate.

[Baroness Smith of Basildon]

My Lords, I have listened with great care to the debate and it is clear that none of us welcomes the order before us. The Government have informed us, and it has been endorsed by noble Lords, that it has been brought forward because of necessity. The Minister’s comments on that were a wise reflection. We are not in a normal situation and we should never regard it as such. We have to continue to move towards normalisation of the courts and the justice system. The noble Lords, Lord Shutt, Lord Bew and Lord Maginnis, all recognised the enormous progress that has been made in moving towards normalisation in Northern Ireland but we recognise that some parts of the justice apparatus are not yet able to be fully normalised. That has to be the right direction to move towards and one that has our total support.

The key issue of importance in this order is the maintenance of public confidence in this position. Obviously, we will not oppose the order tonight, but I am sure that the Minister is aware that accountability and transparency of decision-making if a case is not to be heard by a jury are extremely important. Each decision must be taken on a case-by-case basis. We certainly agree with the Minister and support the reduction in the time before it will expire from four years to two. I welcome the comments he made at the beginning that there should be a return to jury trial as soon as possible. It is clear from the discussion this evening that no one wants to move towards a rolling extension of such an order every two years. Should a further order be necessary in the future, I hope that the noble Lord will take back to his ministerial colleagues the comments that have been made about consultation and the issues that have arisen. That could play into the comments and concerns that I have about accountability and transparency and ensuring that we maintain public confidence in the system.

I have four points to raise with the Minister that I think will be helpful to noble Lords. He set out some of the reasons why he felt it necessary to extend the order. It would be helpful to have a little more detail on that. That is my issue about public confidence in the judicial system. It is always important and prudent to be as transparent and open with us as he can possibly be but I recognise the difficulty. I understand the Government’s concern, which has been raised by other noble Lords, about jury interference. Is he able to tell us about any other action that the Government are seeking to take to deal with the issue of jury interference because that will help towards looking into the future of reinstating jury trials? Furthermore, as the decision will continue to be made by the DPP, can the Minister say more about the criteria that are used by the DPP when deciding whether or not the case should be heard by a jury? He gave the four criteria at the beginning, but I am interested in the weighting of those criteria and the fact that only one has to be met for the DPP to decide on a non-jury trial.

I wonder whether the Minister has further information about the limited circumstances in which a certificate for a non-jury trial would be provided. If he has not, I am happy for him to write to me about this. Fourteen certificates for non-jury trials were issued in 2010 but 12 have already been issued in 2011, which indicates that there will be a much higher number issued in 2011 than in 2010. We are all aware of high profile cases that have yet to come to trial. If we were to see that increase year on year, the Minister will recognise the significance of that. I am interested in the number of cases considered for jury and non-jury trials. What is the balance between those for which the DPP grants a certificate for a non-jury trial and those that he would not grant a certificate for a non-jury trial? We have to be concerned about the numbers increasing when we are seeking to move towards normalisation of the justice system.

I thank the Minister for his helpful explanation that has led to a thorough debate on this issue. I hope that he will take away the comments to his colleagues in the department who can reflect on them to see whether improvements can be made, particularly with regard to consultation in future.

Northern Ireland: Bill of Rights

Lord Bew Excerpts

Tuesday 15th March 2011 Lords Chamber

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

I am not absolutely clear about the question, but the Government are possessed of the fact of honouring the Belfast agreement. Within that there has to be a human rights element for Northern Ireland. What is not absolutely written in stone is that that has to be very separate.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, will the Minister comment on the reality that the Belfast agreement does not impose an obligation on the Government to legislate on the human rights question; rather, it imposes an obligation on them to receive the report of the Northern Ireland Human Rights Commission? Rather more profoundly, that report is supposed to be based on the principle of “parity of esteem” for the “two traditions”. That is explicitly said in the Belfast agreement. The Northern Ireland Assembly has in effect rejected the idea that it is so based. Is it not at this stage for those who believe in human rights legislation to carry on the argument in Northern Ireland with the Northern Ireland Assembly to see whether minds can be changed?

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

It certainly is. The Northern Ireland Assembly voted by 46 votes to 42 that it did not want separate human rights legislation. There is an election, and things might well change following that election. If a united front in the Northern Ireland Assembly said that that is what it wanted, obviously the British Government would take due notice.

Control of Donations and Regulation of Loans etc. (Extension of the Prescribed Period) (Northern Ireland) Order 2011

Lord Bew Excerpts

Monday 7th February 2011 Grand Committee

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I, too, thank my noble friend for introducing this order. Bearing in mind that the Belfast agreement took place in 1998, it is very depressing that here we are and we cannot have normal conditions obtaining in Northern Ireland. I take some heart from the fact that it is only a two-year extension, by which I mean, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, that a signal has been given to the political parties that this is the last time that the order will be continued in its present form. I hope that it will lapse. As the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, has said, there have been great steps forward—after a very irregular start since the Belfast agreement when we had the suspension of Stormont—but we should look forward to normal transparencies obtaining.

To get a sense of the order of magnitude, I should like to ask my noble friend if for the past financial year he can indicate the totals of donations by party. While I appreciate that for the current year we might see an increase in donations because it is an election year, it will be nevertheless very interesting to have it on the public record to see at what sums we are looking—whether they are trivial or of some substance. I should be grateful for that information.

[Lord Bew]

I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing this order. Like the noble Lord, Lord Smith, I have listened to his words with a degree of disappointment. It is right to say that the limits on the progress that has been made in Northern Ireland—remarkable though that progress has been—are shown in that we are still talking about these exemptions and derogations from broader UK electoral law and the transparency of such law.

I am not surprised by the words of the Minister and the proposal put today because the balance of opinion, to my surprise, in Northern Ireland over the past year has been very cautious about changing existing regulations. It has become clear for some time that the Government, if they were to respond to what they were hearing, would have to be relatively cautious in their response. But, having plagued the noble Lord, Lord Rooker, when he was at the Dispatch Box as long ago as 2007 on this matter and having, I think, plagued the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, on this matter, it would be hypocritical of me not to record a note of disappointment. I know why the Government have reached this conclusion. I know that they may have been slightly surprised by the degree of concern on the part of the political parties. But having received that, any responsible Government have to pay attention to it.

I simply make the point that Northern Ireland last year was convulsed by public scandals. One of the issues that lay in the background was that of the relationship of certain businessmen to certain political parties. In the rest of the United Kingdom, such matters would be easily sorted out and put into the public domain, but in Northern Ireland we do not know where we stand. That is a difficulty and the step that the Minister is taking is regrettable, if understandable.

The noble Lord, Lord Smith, says that he hopes that there is a two-year limit and that the provision might just lapse in two years. However, having been at this now for four years, I am not quite so secure in that assumption. I hope that he is right. Therefore, I would like to be reassured that the Minister is as clear as he appears to be that the department is looking carefully at work to deal with this by secondary legislation and, if it cannot be done by that method, that primary legislation will be introduced that at least loosens some of the provisions and gives greater openness. I have an uneasy feeling that, in the short term, that will be the best that we can do; I very much hope that I am wrong. Therefore, it is important that the Northern Ireland Office looks carefully at what can be done in certain areas, because I have a feeling that—even two years from now—we will not be looking at the simple lapsing of this legislation.

[Lord Shutt of Greetland]

My Lords, I thank the three noble Lords for their contributions and will endeavour to respond accordingly. In terms of the Government’s position, the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, made the helpful point that she understands where we are at present. She spoke very much about what she referred to as option 3 of what was put forward in the consultation. She asked why we had said two years. The legislation envisaged extensions of the prescribed period for up to two years, so that is the figure that one can go to and no further without another order. She asked what the Government were doing to reduce intimidation. The Government remain committed to doing everything possible to reduce violent activity in Northern Ireland. We continue to work with the Executive and security agencies to reduce overall paramilitary activity, which should lead to a corresponding decrease in intimidation.

The third point that the noble Baroness raised was about the use of the two years. Clearly, work has to be done—this reverts to the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Bew—on either a new order or primary legislation before too long, because of the issues that noble Lords agreed on, I think, about not releasing past information on the basis that people made donations in the belief that the information about them as donors was not to be released. That would have to be dealt with. Similarly, there could be a system whereby it was not exposed if—for example—the noble Lord, Lord Bew, gave £10,000 to a party today, but the facts that there were £10,000, a recipient and a date could be given. As we understand it, that cannot be done under present legislation.

The noble Baroness, Lady Royall, referred to the originating power, which is in the Northern Ireland (Miscellaneous Provisions Act) 2006. I have not got a note about whether there will be a fresh period of consultation. That would be in the spirit of what happens in these matters but there is a sense in which what is planned is clear without further consultation, in that it would be about numbers, dates and the recipient party but not the name of the donor. Perhaps this could be done without a further consultation period, but I do not want to close the door on consultation. That copes with the points.

My noble friend Lord Smith of Clifton found it depressing, which I understand, and I wish I was not moving this order. I wish it were rather different, but this is the way it is. This is advice which is given about the security situation in Northern Ireland and what it is right to do. Like him, I would sooner be looking forward.

Over the weekend, I dug out what is on the public record as regards what the parties publish because the parties still have to produce their accounts to be registered with the Electoral Commission. I give this information, which is in the public domain, with one or two health warnings. This relates to the calendar year. All the parties that I shall mention have year ends in December 2009 and, therefore, that does not include what might have been a different year in 2010, when there was a general election.

Five of the parties—the DUP, Sinn Fein, the UUP, the SDLP and the Alliance Party—have between them 186 accounting units, no doubt constituency associations and so forth. Having looked at what is on record with the Electoral Commission, in the accounting units, there do not appear to be hefty figures labelled as donations. Looking at what is shown by the Northern Ireland-wide parties one sees that the DUP’s income was £348,000 with donations of £126,000; Sinn Fein’s income was £1.177 million and its donations £462,000; the UUP’s income was £392,000 and its donations £21,000; the SDLP’s income was £398,000 and its donations £83,000; the Alliance Party’s income was £151,000 and its donations £16,000; the PUP’s income was £107,000 and its donations £150; the Green’s income was £47,000 and its donations £7,000; the income of the Conservatives in Northern Ireland was £215,000 and its donations £204,000; the Labour Party’s income was £1,450 and it had no donations.

Those figures are available for anyone to look at on the website of the Electoral Commission. However, I cannot vouch that each party has put a donation in its own accounts as a donation which has been seen as recordable on the other side of the book with the Electoral Commission. Many of us might see a heavy subscription as a donation, but it might be called a subscription. There are certain health warnings on that, but it gives an idea of the fact that the Northern Ireland-wide income of the parties in that year was just over £2.8 million and the amount that is listed as donations is just over £900,000. Those are the figures and they give one a feel for the sort of numbers we are talking about.

I think I have covered the points made by noble Lords and I hope that the order will be accepted.

Northern Ireland Assembly (Elections) (Amendment) Order 2010

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 24th November 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Browne of Belmont]

My Lords, I welcome the two orders before the House today, but I should first declare an interest as a member of both the Northern Ireland legislative Assembly and Belfast City Council. I welcome in particular the provisions which allow voters to use the same form of ID for all elections, as it removes much of the confusion that voters currently face. I welcome also the provision which expands the variety of people who can attest to vote applications. In the past, this has been a real worry, particularly for elderly voters, who will now find it much easier to have their social worker sign rather than to have to arrange to have someone visit them for that purpose.

The order relating to the Northern Ireland Assembly elections brings much needed change to the system of postal ballots. Thankfully, Northern Ireland escaped much of the controversy that surrounded the system of postal ballots in England in May. However, as I am sure noble Lords are aware, Northern Ireland has had more than its fair share of voting irregularities in the past. It is to be hoped that the amendment made by the Assembly order will mean that any such instances for postal ballots are avoided in the future, while maintaining a very good, workable system.

While most of the changes contained in the local elections order are slight, they contribute to making the election process much more transparent. There is no doubt that the public have taken an increased interest in the past few years in how politicians and political parties operate, particularly how they receive money to fund their campaigns. It was quite regrettable that, for a number of years, so few safeguards were in place to ensure transparency in the electoral process. It is important that elections are fair and that all parties operate under the same constraints. For many years in Northern Ireland, some candidates and one party in particular received large donations and gifts for their campaigns from what can be described as very nefarious sources.

I am hopeful that the current process that we are involved in, of which this order is a part, will bring us to a situation in which there is greater clarity and light brought to the conduct of election campaigns. I know that people in Northern Ireland look forward to the campaign for the Assembly and their local government elections next May, and I know that it will bring greater transparency. I trust that the Minister will continue to consult closely with the Electoral Commission.

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, I, too, thank the noble Lord, Lord Shutt, for introducing these two draft statutory instruments today and say that I broadly support their thrust—with one caveat, which I shall come to.

It might help the House briefly to explain why the Government are right to go ahead with the local government elections next year, even though there has not been the reform and rationalisation of local government that we were hoping for in Northern Ireland. It is right because we now have a situation, because of the long years since the last local government elections, whereby nominations have become more and more the practice in filling our city councils. I remember saying to the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, about 18 months ago, when she was dealing with this question with her usual skill, that it is a problem, and that if the large political parties believe in direct elections to your Lordships' House it would be a good idea to start with the principle of direct elections to councils in Northern Ireland. At that point, the Dunmurry ward of Lisburn City Council already had a majority of councillors who were not elected but were nominated by the main parties as a result of people retiring from their positions for various reasons—some five out of nine. Just today, the Irish News has published figures for Belfast City Council, the largest council. By January, it is clear that there will be only 32 out of 51 elected members in Belfast City Council, and 40 per cent will be nominated.

We have reached a point whereby it is absolutely essential, despite the difficulties and the fact that it would be much better if we had a reform of local government first, that the Government should say that we will have two elections and possibly a referendum on one day. But that is where my caveat comes in: it will be very hard work indeed to ensure that nothing goes wrong, especially because a number of the polling stations in Northern Ireland are actually rather small places, physically. Will the Minister reassure us that the Government, at least in part, get that point? If you have two elections and one referendum on the same day, in the circumstances that exist, the Government will have to do an awful lot of preparation to ensure that nothing goes wrong and that we have a satisfactory polling day.

[Lord Smith of Clifton]

My Lords, I support these two orders. I think that they are tidying-up orders and are necessary. I support very much what the noble Lords, Lord Kilclooney and Lord Bew, said. However, pace the noble Baroness, Lady Royall, in my experience the most sophisticated electorate on these islands is to be found in Northern Ireland. I do not know this in any pejorative sense, but they actually know how to vote under different systems and have been doing so for a long time—far longer than anywhere else in the devolved regions. I genuinely believe that it would be in the capacity of the electoral authorities and the electors to have two elections and a referendum on the same day.

Bloody Sunday Inquiry

Lord Bew Excerpts

Wednesday 13th October 2010 Lords Chamber

[Lord Bew]

My Lords, in his recent memoirs, the former Prime Minister, Mr Tony Blair, addresses the issue of the inquiry which he asked the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, to establish into the events of Bloody Sunday. In his memoires, Mr Blair said that as time passed and as more and more money was spent, he became more and more jaded and asked himself whether he had done the right thing and thought perhaps it was not a justifiable move. However, in the end, when the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, reported and there was that remarkable response by the people of Derry, Mr Blair came to the conclusion that he had done the right thing and that the expenditure was justified. I regard Mr Blair’s attitude in this respect as being entirely understandable and I think that it would find many echoes in your Lordships' House. I have more respect for Mr Blair’s work as Prime Minister than is probably now fashionable in your Lordships' House, but I am unwilling to leave the matter quite there.

I must first declare an interest as one of the two historical advisers to the tribunal, appointed in the late 1990s. The other was my friend, Professor Paul Arthur of the University of Ulster. I should describe briefly, so that there can be no misunderstanding of my subsequent remarks, the role of the historical adviser. It was, first, to provide historical background papers about the situation in Derry and Northern Ireland for the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville; at a later date, to advise about a document search—where documents were likely to be found in government archives based on my own experience as a historian—and suggest places to look; and, finally, to do an analysis of those documents. All this work was completed in the last century and all of it is a matter of public knowledge. The work is posted on the inquiry’s website. In fact, I had never spoken to the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, until this afternoon, just before he gave evidence on his inquiry to the House of Commons Select Committee.

That was the nature of our involvement. We were extraordinarily fortunate in terms of documents and personnel. Very few documents that seemed to be relevant had disappeared. Let us contrast that with the more recent inquiry into the death of Mr Billy Wright, which cost £42 million and was considered to be much less satisfactory. That was not because of any absence of professionalism on the part of those who worked on that inquiry; it was simply because, although the events connected with Mr Wright’s death were only 10 years ago, a surprisingly large number of the dramatis personae were dead whereas a surprisingly large number of the dramatis personae of Bloody Sunday, 38 years ago, were still alive. It was also because many documents in the Billy Wright case had taken a walk whereas the same documents in respect of Bloody Sunday had not. So we were extremely fortunate, particularly in the matter of the survival of documents.

Even for £200 million, no inquiry can give the absolute truth. In the 1880s in London we had the special commission of inquiry into Parnellism and crime. Relevant documents with regard to the conclusions of that special commission have become available only in the past 10 or 20 years. I am absolutely certain that, over time, documents will become available and memoirs written which will change parts at least of the story as given by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville. That is not a reflection on the professionalism and lucidity which he has brought to his report; it is simply a reflection on the difficulty of establishing the absolute truth of these events. I fully support the conclusions that he has reached, but since the report has been published I have heard from a nationalist, Derry and Bogside point of view criticisms of certain points which seem to be at least serious, and I have heard people with connections with the Army criticise other points in a way which seems also to have a degree of seriousness. The noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, has done a remarkable job, in particular in the handling of sensitive intelligence matters which I did not think could be handled so well, but even at that price, you do not get a guarantee of absolute truth. What you get is a very good job and a remarkable piece of work by the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville.

I remind noble Lords of the real context of why we got the Saville inquiry in the first place. It was not because Lord Widgery said that those who died were guilty—because he did not; it was because Mr Gerry Adams and the leadership of Sinn Fein said that there was a conspiracy on the part of the British state to bring about these events. The Saville inquiry was set up because a calculation was made by the then Prime Minister, as part of the peace process that led to the successful negotiation of the Good Friday agreement some months later, that it was necessary to bring Sinn Fein along. It was an entirely defensible and correct political calculation on the part of the Prime Minister of the day. But the actual circumstances are often misrepresented.

Let me explain. What did Lord Widgery say in April 1972 about those who died? In the conclusion of his report he stated:

“Each soldier was his own judge of whether he had identified a gunman. Their training made them aggressive and quick in decision and some showed more restraint in opening fire than others. At one end of the scale some soldiers showed a high degree of responsibility; at the other … firing bordered on the reckless”.

He concluded:

“None of the deceased or wounded is proved to have been shot whilst handling a firearm or bomb”.

Lord Widgery's report is inadequate in many ways. It does not reach out to the people of the Bogside who suffered so much pain on that day, but he did not say that those who fell were guilty of any crime. If there is any doubt about that, John Major, the Prime Minister before Tony Blair, said in the House of Commons that those who died on that day should be considered innocent. There was therefore no need as such to address that question. There were other important questions that rightly had to be addressed and I hope I showed by the fact that I was happy to work for the inquiry that I believed it was important to get to the truth of these matters. But it is not the case that Lord Widgery actually said that those who fell on the day were guilty.

On the other hand, Mr Adams's views, taken two months before the establishment of the inquiry on 7 December 1997 to the Independent, are very clear. He said that one question that is very much on people's minds is Bloody Sunday. He said:

“Everybody knows it was a premeditated attack as part of the military-political strategy at that time. You'd think it would be relatively easy to set up an independent inquiry to sort everything out, but to do that the Prime Minister has to challenge all that stuff. That’s the test”.

It was as a response to that challenge that Tony Blair took the correct decision to establish the Saville inquiry. But it is quite important to realise the real context of the political decision.

The immediate casus belli is a claim of conspiracy. In my view, the release of documents before the turn of the century made it clear that there was no conspiracy at the level of the British Cabinet, no conspiracy at the level of the Northern Ireland Cabinet and no conspiracy at the level of the higher reaches of the Army or the Ministry of Defence. That was for the price of £20,000 or £30,000. A large part of the tribunal's conclusions state that there was no conspiracy. I do not say that the many other tens of millions of pounds subsequently racked up in this century were irrelevant or wrong. This afternoon, the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, before the Select Committee in another place, made a very serious point that the Ministry of Defence had lost contact with many of the soldiers and it was necessary to pay private inquiry firms to establish contact with many of the soldiers involved. I regard that and many other things that he gave instance of this afternoon as entirely legitimate expenses that the inquiry subsequently entered into.

There is a point here about the peculiarity of the English in these difficult situations to lawyer-up with this model of inquiry. The Belgians, confronted with the difficult question in their own past of the possible involvement of the Belgian state authorities in the murder of Patrice Lumumba, had a commission of historians. The Swedes, confronted with issues about how their security forces had operated during the Cold War, had a commission of historians. The Dutch, confronted with issues of how their army performed in the Balkans—sensitive, difficult and painful issues for the Dutch people—had a commission of historians. In England, we lawyer-up. There is a certain model of inquiry and certain expenses inevitably follow from that inquiry, which is part of the reason already given by the noble Lord, Lord Smith of Clifton, in this respect.

I shall give noble Lords another example. The eight days of the former Prime Minister, Mr Edward Heath, in the witness box, contributed absolutely nothing to the final conclusions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Saville, while contributing a significant amount to the earnings of the barristers involved in the questioning. All we needed to know about the former Prime Minister’s views about Bloody Sunday were in the Cabinet conclusions of two weeks before, when it was perfectly clear that his opinions and attitudes about what to do about Derry were, if anything, benign and conciliatory, and certainly did not edge or lead towards the murderous events that took place. Then there is the case of Mr David Shayler, the intelligence officer. His evidence on a key intelligence question took one hour, but there were several days of lawyers asking questions to establish his credibility before he could go into the witness box.

So there is a problem with how we do this type of work, and its cost. We regard Saville as having been successful and benign, in certain important respects, regarding the impact of his report on Northern Ireland. We must also face up to the fact that we have new inquiries coming in, one of which is rumoured to cost £52 million and another £40 million. We are very fortunate indeed that the Saville inquiry, partly through luck, turned out to be so authoritative in some many crucial respects. Already, in the case of the Billy Wright inquiry, we have an example of a very expensive inquiry, costing £32 million, which is widely regarded as somewhat unsatisfactory in its impact in Northern Ireland, although through no fault of those carrying it out. That is an awful lot of hip replacements and other operations in the National Health Service. Hundreds of millions of pounds are racked up on this, again and again.

I conclude by making an observation about Mr Blair’s opening case for setting up the inquiry in the House of Commons. He said about the Armed Forces, I think entirely correctly, that,

“it would be a disservice to them to believe that they should have anything to fear from an inquiry that establishes the truth, where people accept that people were killed in circumstances in which they should not have been killed. Far from undermining support for our armed services, I believe that … we underline the fact that, unlike the terrorists, we do not have anything to fear from inquiries into the truth”.—[Official Report, Commons, 29/1/1998; col. 512.]

I believe that Mr Blair spoke the truth that day and that it is a truth that is much to be respected.

The truth now is that a Martian who came down to earth and listened to the post-Troubles debate about Northern Ireland would conclude, after listening to the BBC news on a regular basis, that the following people died during the Troubles—those who died on Bloody Sunday and those who died in the other celebrated cases in which we have inquiries, which we have mentioned this afternoon. The Martian would also conclude that we have a very serious problem with collusion. In certain cases there appears to be evidence that there has been an element of collusion between state forces and loyalist paramilitaries, but the number of republicans killed by loyalist paramilitaries is just over 30. So even if all these were cases of collusion in which state forces had helped the loyalist paramilitaries, that would be less than 1 per cent of the total of those who died during the Troubles. It is also worth bearing in mind—and it has already been referred to—that for every one member of the IRA who fell during the Troubles, eight members of the security forces fell. Those are very important facts that have to be kept in mind.

We need now an attitude towards the past that does not privilege certain deaths. It is quite correct that we have led the way in those cases in which the state has behaved badly, but in a modern democracy we need to have more than that. Why? Because it demoralises the centre ground in Northern Ireland and those people with conventional morality who cannot figure out this way of dealing with matters. Most importantly, we rely on our Army and security services to help us in another and probably greater threat of terrorism. We need those in our Army and security services to know that while we will of course be vigilant with respect to wrong-doing, we also respect the work that they are doing and that the way in which we approach these matters, including the story of the Troubles, reflects that respect.