Employment Rights Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Lord Katz

Committee stage
Tuesday 24th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord in Waiting/Government Whip (Lord Katz) (Lab)]

My Lords, I thank my noble friend Lord Berkeley for tabling Amendment 323E and everyone who contributed to this short but important debate on the issue of substitution clauses.

To be absolutely clear, the Government are very alert to the risks that my noble friends Lord Berkeley and Lord Hendy and the noble Lords, Lord Russell of Liverpool and Lord Palmer of Childs Hill, all raised on substitution. We recognise that substitution in the platform economy is an issue, and we share the concerns about the impact that it can have on working conditions and the prevalence of illegal working.

Some of the critiques that my noble friend Lord Berkeley made about e-bikes and e-scooters, and some of the comments made by the noble Baroness, Lady Neville-Rolfe, fall a little outside what we are talking about tonight. One only has to be in the Chamber at Oral Questions on a regular basis to understand that noble Lords across the whole House share concerns about the impact that e-bikes and e-scooters are having on general society, as well as their attitudes towards the noble pursuits of cycling, walking and sharing public spaces.

There is growing awareness of substitution clauses and their use to deny workers core protections, including the national minimum wage and holiday pay, as set out by many noble Lords this evening, particularly the noble Lord, Lord Russell of Liverpool. Clearly, in extremes this can lead to abusive and exploitative treatment of workers, and we are looking at it closely.

My noble friend Lord Berkeley raised the issue of illegal working as reported in today’s edition of the Sun. It is important in considering this issue to realise that the Government recently introduced an amendment to the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill on Report in the other place to extend the scope of the requirement on employers to carry out right to work checks on limb (b) workers or individual subcontractors, such as those working in the platform economy.

We must remain in step with modern labour market models. The purpose of these changes is to require businesses that employ individuals in new labour markets to check that only those with a right to work in the UK are eligible to participate in these arrangements, and to enable Immigration Enforcement to issue penalties where they are not. This ensures that compliance is equivalent for traditional employers. That, as I understand it, is the core of the issue raised in the newspaper report described by my noble friend Lord Berkeley.

The links between substitution and employment status demonstrate how complex this area is. As my noble friend Lady Jones said earlier this evening in discussing Amendment 318, we are committed to consulting on a simpler employment status framework. My noble friend Lord Hendy said that we should look at this holistically. I am confident that this will provide an opportunity to hear views from a wide range of stakeholders on the use of substitution clauses and the interactions with employment status. This is an important issue, but I am also aware that there is a complex interplay with measures we are going to discuss shortly in Committee on the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill. In that context, it might be useful for me to take this back to colleagues in the Home Office and see how best to pursue it further.

I therefore ask my noble friend Lord Berkeley to withdraw Amendment 323E. In so doing, as this will be my last opportunity to speak in Committee, I would like to take this opportunity to thank all noble Lords who have taken part in the wonderful 11 days in Committee on this Bill for their constructive engagement and, indeed, at times, stimulating debates—who would have thought we would get so many days in Committee? I take note of what the noble Lord, Lord Sharpe, said earlier about the pace of progress during immigration legislation. As I am going to be on the Front Bench for the Border Security, Asylum and Immigration Bill later this week, all I can say is: I simply cannot wait.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am really grateful to noble Lords who have taken part in this short debate and made many contributions, which indicate that it is a difficult subject and it would the better if the whole thing went away. But of course, it will not go away. When my noble friend the Minister said that this is his last appearance on the Bill, I thought, “Well, is it a sinking ship or is it going to the next stage?” I hope it is not a sinking ship, and that there is going to be another good stage.

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

To be clear, we are in Committee. Who knows what comes next?

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

We had a problem up in the Committee room last week with the mice eating through the electric cables. We have got a few problems here.

More seriously, it is a big problem. We only covered probably a small fraction of it tonight, but I would be very grateful if the Minister agreed to meet those of us who are interested, sometime between now and Report, to see how we can take it forward in one way or another. I am not sure which way “forward” would be; but otherwise, it is very tempting to put another amendment down on Report and have another debate like this. It would be much better if we could all sit around a table for half an hour and hear what the Government want to do, and hopefully agree—or hopefully not. Is my noble friend about to say yes to that?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

Over many years now, I have had lots of interesting discussions with my noble friend, in different guises. It is always a pleasure to meet with him—and indeed with any other noble Lords who wish to engage on this important issue.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

I am most grateful to my noble friend. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the amendment.

Rivers and Estuaries: Derelict Boats

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Lord Katz

Thursday 19th June 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

The noble Lord raises an interesting case of some very positive enforcement action that was taken by the local authority that he named. We very encourage all navigation authorities to work with local stakeholders, communities and local authorities to do as much as they can to remove that blight. For noble Lords’ information, in 2024-25, the Canal & River Trust removed 12 abandoned derelict and sunken boats from its rivers, and 96 such boats from its canals. The average cost of removal was £7,000.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, can the Minister explain the best and most environmentally friendly way to dispose of boats, most of which are made from glass fibre these days? I suspect that many people, in extremis, set fire to them, which is not a good idea. Do the Government give any advice to help this process along?

[Lord Katz (Lab)]

My Lords, we leave such matters to the experts. My noble friend raises an interesting point, which I am sure navigation authorities consider. This is why it is important that the Government, while they are in close consultation with navigation authorities, do not step in on operational matters but ensure that navigation authorities are working with communities, stakeholders and—equally importantly—the owners to ensure safe disposal.