Ship Recycling (Facilities and Requirements for Hazardous Materials on Ships) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I very much support the noble Baroness’s comments on this SI. It is designed to put some regulation around the breaking up of ships. As we all know—and as the noble Baroness said—it is a difficult and possibly polluting process. There was a time, a few years ago, when a shipyard in the UK was breaking up ships that had been towed across from the United States because they were not allowed to be broken up there. I have always thought that our environmental regulations were supposed to be better than theirs. They certainly were not then. Why they were not towed to India or Bangladesh, heaven only knows, because it is even worse there.

I share the noble Baroness’s worry that there may be one common list at the moment, but it is very easy for UK commercial interests to put pressure on the Government here to enable UK shipbreakers’ yards to compete with those on the continent by lowering standards. The paragraph in the Explanatory Memorandum that the noble Baroness quoted also says:

“To allow UK flagged ships the widest choice and to minimise administrative burdens on ship recycling facilities, our policy is to align the UK list with the European list as far as practicable”.


This is the dangerous bit. When the Minister responds, I hope she will confirm that there will be no reduction in any environmental or other standards, compared with Europe’s, if and when we leave.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, this is yet another of these statutory instruments. I share the exasperation of the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson. It is almost as if a collective madness has overtaken this Parliament. We are spending hours and hours on this, using up the time of brilliant officials and keeping excellent Ministers working. While we are discussing these statutory instruments, some of our colleagues in Grand Committee are discussing other statutory instruments relating to legal issues. All of these will be required only in the event of no deal—which, apparently, none of us wants and which we are trying to get off the agenda.

I read the contribution from the noble and learned Lord, Lord Mackay of Clashfern, to the debate yesterday, and how wise it was. If only we would do what the noble and learned Lord suggested and take some decisive action. For goodness’ sake, have we become collectively enthralled and caught up in this interminable process?

We are told that even after today’s votes this may not be the end of it. On 13 February—the day before St Valentine’s Day, of all choices—we will have yet another opportunity. The Prime Minister is unbelievably adamant and stubborn. Despite the fact that leader after leader in Ireland and everywhere in Europe is saying, “No, this agreement that has been discussed and debated over the last two years, and which has been agreed, is legally binding and cannot be changed; it is a legal agreement”, she wants to say, “Oh, no, no, no, I am going to try yet again”.

Where are we? What use is this Parliament? What use is this House if we cannot do something to stop it? We should be doing something. We had a third debate yesterday. It was like Groundhog Day, going through the same arguments again and again. With no disrespect, I have heard the wonderful speech from the noble Lord, Lord Hannay, on half a dozen occasions now, with little bits added here and there. I do not pick him out for any particular reason. The same applies to almost everyone who has spoken in all three debates. It really is outrageous that we are put through this.

What else could the Minister and her excellent officials in the Department for Transport be doing? We heard earlier from my noble friend Lord Snape about the importance of HS2. These things all need to be pushed forward and considered. We are having problems on the railways, such as with Northern rail. The Secretary of State seems to have constant problems in relation to transport. If he had more time, instead of being preoccupied with Brexit, he might just be able to cope with some of them—maybe—and the officials might be able to deal with them. Why? This really is outrageous. Admittedly, this is not all to do with this particular statutory instrument, but I feel a lot better having said it.

High Speed Rail (West Midlands-Crewe) Bill

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Tuesday 29th January 2019 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I will briefly ask the noble Baroness a couple of questions on this Motion. It is good to have it before the House—it shows progress with HS2—but I am wondering why today. It is probably because we do not have much else to do in your Lordships’ House. Could she give us any idea as to when the Bill will complete its passage through the House of Commons and when we might see it?

Before the Bill comes to your Lordships’ House, will the Government publish a new business case and cost estimate for phase 2a—the subject of the Bill—taking into account the latest information about land purchase and design development? I am already hearing stories about quite difficult ground conditions on the route, including salt mines. There are lots of salt mines in Cheshire. Let us hope that the costs estimate does not go shooting up. I ask this because on HS2 phase 1 we are still working on the 2013 business case, which is six years old—six years of the Infrastructure and Projects Authority’s amber/red designation, which I think is a record.

This was raised in the House of Lords Economic Affairs Committee hearing last week, when Nusrat Ghani, the Minister, and officials gave evidence. When the committe quoted higher costs to the Minister—I think she had probably gone to vote by then—the officials said, “We don’t recognise these figures”. When the committee went back to them and said, “If you don’t recognise the figures we’re quoting, what figures do you recognise?” The answer was, basically, “None”. I do not know whether this is the first of many Treasury blank cheques, or whether in fact the Minister will confirm, as she did in a Written Answer to me about six months ago, that before permanent work starts on phase 1, the Government will come up with a new cost estimate and a new business case.

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab Co-op)]

My Lords, perhaps I may add a couple of question to those of my noble friend Lord Berkeley. I must admit that I am a wee bit worried now that he has told me about the salt mines in Cheshire—but I will have a go nevertheless.

This Motion refers to,

“the next Session of Parliament”.

I am glad to see that the Government Chief Whip is here, because my first question is: when is the next Session of Parliament? When are we going to get it? Will the Queen ever come here again? Will we have a Queen’s Speech—because we have a whole range of things to get though? With what is happening down at the other end of the building, this Session could go on and on. So, before we agree to this, it would be useful to know when the next Session of Parliament is due to begin.

My second question relates to the question of publishing the business case, which my noble friend raised. The original business case, which seems to be being forgotten—I know that my noble friend Lord Snape will not have forgotten it—envisaged that the high-speed rail would go all the way up to Glasgow and Edinburgh in Scotland. Therefore, the business case was based on competition: competing with the airlines that fly now between London and Glasgow and Edinburgh. If it is not going up to Glasgow and Edinburgh, that business case does not arise—so I would be grateful to know whether the business case does include the extension of high-speed rail to Glasgow and Edinburgh.

Those are my two questions. I hope they are not enough to get me sent to the salt mines of Cheshire.

Operation of Air Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2018

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Wednesday 21st November 2018 Grand Committee

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock]

Well, the Minister is encouraging me to do that. Lots more could be said.

The development of low-cost airlines, which we and—I was going to say “our” constituents—the constituents of Members of the other place have all taken advantage of, has been based on arrangements agreed within the European Union, which we have been part of.

I have a specific question for the Minister. Access to the EU’s internal market for air transport could be retained by the UK joining the European common aviation area. Membership is not restricted to EU member states. However, membership would require the UK to accept EU aviation laws and may be incompatible with the stated desire of the UK Government to be extricated from the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice of the European Union. Given the awful prospect of no deal, which almost all of us pray will not happen, will we consider joining the ECAA and therefore accept the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice?

The question of leasing was also raised by the committee. At present, aircraft owned by or leased to nationals of, or companies with their principal base of business or registered office in, the EEA and the Commonwealth, may be registered in the United Kingdom. Will this ability to register aircraft on the UK aircraft register be open to EEA entities post Brexit?

The airlines have made various comments. Michael O’Leary, the outspoken chief executive—I do not think that he has been got rid of yet—of Ryanair, said that a no-deal Brexit was now more likely and that, in such a scenario, flights would be grounded. IAG, which owns British Airways, Iberia and Aer Lingus, was more positive in its assessment. Willie Walsh—wee Willie Walsh—said in March that he firmly believed that the issue of flying rights would be resolved. Well, what I understand it to have done to resolve it is move its headquarters out of London to Madrid—that is a strange way of resolving it—like many others are moving out of London because of Brexit.

This is a total disaster. I hope that the Minister will answer the questions. I hope that she will try hard to give some reassurance, although I do not think she can. However, if there is no such reassurance, I shall not be prepared to accept this statutory instrument today.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, following on from my noble friend’s excellent summary of where we are, I recall a couple of weeks ago in debate on an Oral Question in the Chamber suggesting to a Minister that the safest way would be for the Government to advise people not to buy package holidays that started on or after 30 March, because there is no compensation at the moment and the planes might not fly. The Minister thoroughly rejected that idea, as of course he would.

I hope that the Minister will respond to my noble friend’s reference to the comments in the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s report. I do not want to repeat them, but they are highly complex. For the CAA to have to give out route licences as well as operating licences looks to be a recipe for not having enough people and, as my noble friend said, for grounding. The same applies in respect of paragraph 16, so I shall not go on to that.

I am very disappointed with what is listed under “transport” in the political declaration that came out last week. As somebody else has said, it is a series of statements without verbs. It states that the parties intend to have a comprehensive air transport agreement. Well, they might do, but they have a lot of work to do. It refers to:

“Comparable market access for freight and passenger road transport”,


and acknowledges the intention of the UK and other member states,

“to make bilateral arrangements for cross-border rail”.

That is all on rail; there was nothing else on it at all. It also says that the maritime transport sector would be underpinned by,

“the applicable international legal framework, with appropriate arrangements for cooperation on … safety and security”.

When will we see the SIs covering these other sectors that we have not seen already? We will want to have a pretty detailed debate on them.

My noble friend mentioned safety and maintenance. They are extremely important. I will raise the question of standards across the various sectors. I wrote to the Minister a couple of weeks ago on railway standards. She kindly replied today so I have not been able to circulate her reply around, but I will do so. It exposes quite a significant difference of approach between different parts of the Department for Transport. The Minister’s response on railway standards is basically that, although the Government would like to be able to have their own standards for domestic traffic, they would do this only after substantial consultation with the industry. That sounds fine. The industry, which I will not quote now, is very much in favour of staying in the European railway agency because of the international need to have one common set of standards across the world for ease of manufacturing and exporting as much as anything.

The same applies to the road sector with automotive manufacturing. The CEO of the SMMT, Mike Hawes, gave some very interesting evidence to the House of Lords EU Internal Market Sub-Committee recently, saying:

“The major regulatory powerhouses tend to be the EU, especially around the environment but also safety, and the US”,

but they are very different and demonstrate very different approaches to policy, particularly on safety and the environment. He says that the EU is highly influential. The same comments could equally apply to air. I am interested to see what the sub-committee says when it reports.

However, last week the Secretary of State said when he gave evidence to the same sub-committee that breaking away from the EU will mean that the UK can rip up the rulebook and set its own standards for sectors such as rail. He sees no reason why the country should be made to abide by European regulations. He told the sub-committee that there was no need to remain part of the European rail regulatory body as the country’s rail systems vary in a vast number of ways from that of continental Europe, but the only example that he could give was station platform heights, which is just crazy. Station platforms for HS2 might need to be a little bit different, but there are many more stations that HS2 trains will go into that will not be affected. Presumably the Secretary of State has the same views on other sectors, such as road and air. Why does he have that view? The Minister’s statement now and her letter to me seem to have a much more balanced approach to standards, recognising that all the industry sectors in transport want to keep close alignment with the standards for very good safety, exporting and general manufacture reasons.

I also have one or two questions on the regulations themselves. The first is on the PSOs, which the Minister mentioned. It is good that they want to continue with the use of PSOs but will there be a similar need for regulations for other modes such as the bus, rail and maritime sectors in this country? If so, when will we see those and if not, why not?

Paragraph 2.5 of the draft Explanatory Memorandum, as the Minister said, says:

“The Regulation will now reflect … that”,


the legislation,

“applies only within the UK”.

How will air carriers from outside the UK be able to apply for licences to operate either into or within the UK? Who do they apply to and how long is it going to take to operate?

My noble friend talked about British Airways and IAG. I have a big problem with IAG because I tried to fly to Madrid on Friday and I was denied boarding at Heathrow—the wonderful new terminal 5. It was particularly galling when I had got up at 4 am to get to the airport. The point was that I could not check in on the web because I had bought the ticket through Iberia, which along with British Airways is part of AIG, and it said online, “Go to the British Airways check-in” because it was a British Airways flight. So I went there and it said, “Go back to Iberia”. I did that three or four times and swore, then I left it and went to the airport, where they said the flight was full. I said “Well, I’ve got a ticket”, so they sent me to the gate and it was still full. It is so nice in terminal 5 because you cannot come back from its satellites by train; you have to walk through a long tunnel.

I got the standard European compensation very quickly and was promised a refund of the fare, because the next flight would have been too late. I said, “Could you cancel my flight back in the evening?”. She said, “You’re on an Iberia flight—I can’t cancel it”. Now this is one company. I do not know whether the company will be based in London, Madrid or Timbuktu, but if it cannot get its act together when it is one of the biggest operators out of the UK, heaven help us. I certainly shall not fly with it in the run-up to Brexit, if I can avoid it. I hope that other people will not have the same problem and that it will be all right on the night.

Paragraph 7.7 of the draft memorandum refers to:

“The discretion given to EU Member States to regulate the distribution of traffic rights and impose measures”.


Who does that? It is yet more extra work, maybe for the CAA or the Government. Paragraph 7.9 refers to,

“a permit in order to perform aerial work”.

I find the definition of aerial work slightly confusing. Is it about running a drone, aerial photography or what? Again, that seems to be a bit more work for the CAA. Finally, the Committee may be glad to hear, paragraph 7.11 refers to when operating air services to the EU is revoked and says that,

“all air carriers operating international air services from the UK will require a route licence”.

That is what we said before; who is going to negotiate the route licences and operating licences?

As my noble friend said, this will end in chaos. We are pretty well there. There seems to be no agreement even between different parts of the Department for Transport and the Ministers, and I share my noble friend’s view that the only solution is to stay within the EU.

Procedure Committee

Debate between Lord Berkeley and Lord Foulkes of Cumnock

Monday 18th December 2017 Lords Chamber

[Lord Foulkes of Cumnock (Lab)]

My Lords, I have been known in the past to express some concerns about this issue and, on this occasion, I want to make it absolutely clear that the Senior Deputy Speaker should be commended for the work that he has done. It has been a long and detailed exercise carried out withMy second point is in relation to committees. The more ignorant observers of this House seem to think that getting up, asking questions and making speeches in this place, as I tend to do from time to time, is the only important work that this House carries out. That is as far from the truth as one can get. This House carries out a huge amount of detailed, painstaking and important work in committees. Incidentally, I tried to get the producer of the three documentaries on the Lords to film some of them. I was told that it was too boring. It may be boring, but it is very important—some of it is not boring, by the way.

We should try to get this message over, especially on these Bills. My noble friend Lord Elder and others served on the high-speed rail Bill. He spent hours, days and weeks on it for almost no public recognition or, even more importantly, awareness of what he was doing. We need to take every opportunity—I know the Senior Deputy Speaker and the Lord Speaker will do this—to shout from the rafters and explain, when we go to schools and other institutions, that a great deal of work by this House is done outside this Chamber and is not fully recognised.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, my noble friends have made some very interesting comments on this report. I join in congratulating the Senior Deputy Speaker on what he has achieved. One other thing we possibly ought to look at, given the fact that there may be two or three more hybrid Bills coming on HS2 and maybe other projects in future, is whether in certain circumstances there should be Joint Committees of both Houses, which would save quite a lot of reading time for MPs and your Lordships. More radically, we should consider using the same procedure used for building motorways these days through the Infrastructure Planning Commission—I think it is called that—and build railways that way. Railways are built with hybrid Bills for historical reasons—there were no motorways when the railways started and everything had to go through both Houses. It is a bit ironical that a motorway can be built using one procedure and a railway can be built using another. Maybe it is time to start looking at them both to see whether there are benefits in doing them all one way or the other.