Railways: Midland Main Line
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Baroness Vere of Norbiton
I am afraid to disappoint the noble Baroness but the Minister does not accept that. We looked at the costs and benefits of the full electrification of this line and concluded that, in terms of passenger experience, the same benefits can be achieved by going a different way. She mentioned the money that has been spent on bridges. However, it was not wasted: it has improved the stability of those bridges, many of which were fairly old, and means that the passage of freight is now easier.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, Transport Ministers stated last year that all diesel propulsion would be removed from the network by 2040 to help with carbon reduction. I welcome the Minister but, according to her figures, all these bi-mode trains will be only 14 years old and will still have a half-life by the point at which the Government are supposed to have cancelled all diesels. What will happen to them?
Baroness Vere of Norbiton
Ah, but the devil is in the detail. We said that we will end diesel-only trains by 2040, so bi-modes do not count. It is worth pointing out that the bi-modes we expect Abellio to use under the East Midlands franchise are in design and development. There will be many new improvements and we look forward to welcoming these trains.
Operation Brock
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Baroness Sugg
My Lords, since Brock became active, five road traffic collisions have been reported to Highways England, although that is yet to be validated as an official statistic. It is not dissimilar to other contraflows; there have been five incidents in the same period within the adjacent M20 smart motorways roadwork. However, I reassure noble Lords that Highways England will closely monitor the performance of the contraflow and ensure that the M20 continues to operate safely. The point of Operation Brock is to ensure that the M20 does not close down, which would obviously have a terrible effect on local roads. Both Highways England and Kent Police will continually monitor the situation.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, is not the answer to contraflows to set appropriate speed limits and then enforce them? I have seen many people caught speeding in contraflows. If speed limits are properly enforced, surely that will reduce accidents.
Baroness Sugg
The noble Lord is right to point out the benefits of having speed limits within contraflows. For safety reasons, there has been a speed reduction in the area while the contingency is in place: for the freight side the limit has been reduced to 30 miles per hour, and for the non-freight traffic travelling in the contraflow it is now 50 miles per hour. Highways England has redeployed 80 traffic officers to support Operation Brock, which will ensure that there are 30 on duty at any time. That action will ensure proper enforcement measures. We are also considering activating speed cameras and further signage.
Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, in moving the regulations I will also speak to the Train Driving Licences and Certificates (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019. These regulations are being made under the powers conferred by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and will be needed in the event that the UK leaves the EU without a deal. The regulations fix deficiencies in two sets of domestic railway regulations and EU implementing legislation: the Train Driving Licences and Certificates Regulations 2010, the TDL regulations; and the Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) Regulations 2005, the operator regulations.
As part of the measures aimed at liberalising rail markets, the EU introduced standard documentation for train driving licences and rail operator licences. These documents are valid across the European Economic Area. The Office of Rail and Road—the ORR—is responsible for issuing train driving and operator licences in the UK. Subject to meeting certain criteria, such as medical and competence requirements, the ORR will issue a train driving licence valid for up to 10 years. Train drivers also need a certificate, issued by the operator, confirming that the driver is competent to drive a certain type of train on the infrastructure. Operator licences are issued subject to the operator meeting certain conditions, including financial fitness and having necessary insurance cover. In Northern Ireland the Department for Infrastructure is the licensing authority.
The Train Driving Licences and Certificates (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations amend the TDL regulations and three pieces of EU implementing legislation. The regulations will ensure that the train driving legislation will continue to function after exit day by making a number of technical changes. They remove reporting requirements to the Commission, references to member states and functions reserved for the EU Commission and the European Union Agency for Railways. The regulations also amend the definition of a “train driving licence” so it refers only to ORR-issued train driving licences. In addition, changes are needed to ensure that licences issued in Northern Ireland are valid for use in Great Britain and to make corrections to the EU implementing legislation that applies to both GB and NI.
The Railway (Licensing of Railway Undertakings) (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations make similar technical corrections, removing references to member states and replacing references to EU legislation with references to domestic legislation. The most significant amendment is to rename the “European licence” as a “railway undertaking licence”, though the cost, criteria and processes for obtaining a licence will not change. The draft regulations also revoke implementing regulation 2015/171. This EU regulation sets out a standard template for the form of an operator licence and details on the procedure of applying for a licence. These will not be required post exit as this detail is already incorporated into the ORR’s procedures, which are published on its website in accordance with the operator regulations.
Both sets of regulations also make transitional provisions that recognise existing European documentation, issued in EEA states, for a maximum of two years after exit day or until it expires, whichever is the sooner. In short, existing train drivers and operators providing services in Great Britain will not have to take any immediate action if the UK leaves the EU without a deal, regardless of where their documents were issued. There are a small number of drivers in the EU using ORR-issued licences, which will not be automatically recognised in a no-deal scenario. Departmental officials have worked with the regulator and operators to ensure that these drivers are aware of the need to obtain an EU licence. There are also UK operators providing services in the EU. All these operators already have licences issued in the country they are providing services in, so will be unaffected.
These draft regulations support the smooth continuation of cross-border services, such as Eurostar, by ensuring that EU-licensed train drivers engaged in cross-border services will continue to be able to operate in the UK. The Government are actively engaging with a range of European counterparts, including relevant member states, to secure bilateral agreements for cross-border rail services. These discussions include arrangements for longer-term recognition of train driver licences and operator licences. Bilateral discussions are progressing well, and we are confident of having measures in place in time for exit day.
By removing certain administrative requirements, the draft operator regulations technically widen the scope of who can be charged an application fee by the ORR for an operator licence and of who could be captured by the existing criminal offence of driving or operating on the railway without an appropriate licence. Consequently, these draft regulations are subject to the affirmative procedure. In Northern Ireland, the role of issuing these licences falls to the Department for Infrastructure and a separate instrument is being taken forward on behalf of Northern Ireland.
We have worked closely with the ORR and have engaged with industry to provide as much certainty as possible. The regulations are an important part of our no deal preparations, providing clarity for business and certainty for drivers. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for bringing these regulations to the attention of the House. We have only got a week to go, and if we do not pass them today there may not be any trains running after 29 March—so well done the Department for Transport for leaving it to the last minute.
I have a couple of questions on both SIs. On the licensing of railway undertakings regulations—this is not clear to me and maybe this is not part of these regulations—I was talking to a train operator, from a UK company which has a licence in this country and also operates railway services in other member states, who explained that the company was having trouble in finding out whether its UK licence, in other words its licence to operate in the UK, would be valid in other member states after Brexit. Such companies try hard, often in competition with other incumbents, and it is a strain on their business and management set-ups if they still do not know whether they will be able to operate, either under a new franchise or in continuation of an existing one, after next week. I note that in paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum, as the Minister said in her introduction, there is a two-year window for these licences to continue. However, I am not sure whether that occurs in the other direction, and I would be grateful if she could respond to that.
I have two issues on the train driving licences and certificates regulations. Will UK drivers operating in France, the Channel Tunnel or other member states need to take driving tests in France and, if so, when? Is there a two-year window or when will it happen? This concerns not only Eurostar because in the future there might be other companies operating services through the tunnel, as well as rail freight. I declare an interest as having been chairman of the Rail Freight Group. These regulations add a great deal of bureaucracy, and I would be glad to hear what arrangements will be required for drivers with licences from other member states to come here. Is there a two-year window there?
My second comment relates to paragraph 7.8 of the Explanatory Memorandum. This SI removes the duty to inform the Commission on licences and safety matters and, presumably, vice versa. The statement that we do not need to tell the Commission anymore and it does not need to tell us is putting our head in the sand about anything to do with railway safety. Railways are rule-based operations and the more common rules we have the easier it goes. The transfer of information on safety, accidents, driver qualifications and so on, in the widest possible sense, is surely good for the safe operation of our railways. The text of paragraph 7.8 and elsewhere is drafted in a very negative way. Even if there is not a requirement—I think there should be—to exchange data, I hope the Minister will say that the ORR and the European Railway Agency should be encouraged to exchange data and participate in putting it together in common, European co-ordinated, long-term information about the safety performance of railways over the years. I look forward to the Minister’s response.
Lord Snape (Lab)
My Lords, the House will be grateful to my noble friend for tabling this Motion to Regret—
Baroness Sugg
I thank noble Lords for their consideration of these draft regulations. I agree with all noble Lords that sharing information is very important, not least because of safety. There will still be a power, rather than a duty, to share information on train driving licences with other member states. That will enable mutual sharing arrangements to be put in place. It is our long-term aspiration to continue to share that information.
On numbers of driving licences, the vast majority of people driving trains in the UK have an ORR-issued licence. There are around 250 drivers in the UK who have licences issued under the EEA. Those licences will be recognised for up to two years. In answer to the point from the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, it is up to two years because they may expire before then. If they do, they will need to be replaced. That two years is from exit day, which is currently defined as 29 March, but if that definition changes, it will be two years on from that.
Lord Berkeley
Going back to the Minister’s last comment about sharing information, paragraph 7.8 of the Explanatory Memorandum on train driving licences says:
“The duty to inform EEA safety authorities will be replaced by a discretionary power to provide such information for the two-year period during which European licences continue to be recognised, and then will cease altogether”.
That is not quite the same. I understand what she says about wanting to continue to share information, but that does not appear to be the intent of this document.
Baroness Sugg
I presume that that is the case because we have the two-year implementation period and our future relationship will be subject to negotiations. As I said, our long-term aspiration is to share that information. We think a legal duty is inappropriate, because another authority might refuse to receive information or co-operate, so we would not be able to fulfil that duty.
Railways (Interoperability) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Berkeley
That this House regrets that the Railways (Inter- operability) (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019 (SI 2019/345), laid before the House on 26 February, will cost United Kingdom businesses excessively in operating a potentially diverging range of safety and other railway standards from those of the United Kingdom’s largest market, and regrets the failure of Her Majesty’s Government to demonstrate any significant benefits; and calls on Her Majesty’s Government to lay new regulations that would enable continued compliance with the activities of the European Agency for Rail to provide the best ongoing business opportunities for manufacturers, rail passengers and freight customers in the United Kingdom; continued and consistent safety improvements; and reduced manufacturing costs as a result of one common set of standards across Europe.
Relevant document: 20th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee (Sub-Committee A).
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, the previous two SIs that we debated caused a lot of interest—I am grateful to so many noble Lords for their contributions—but they are to some extent the hors d’oeuvre, because this one is the main course. I wanted to table it as a fatal Motion because I feel so strongly about it, but the timing does not really help and I was told it might be several weeks before parliamentary time was found, which would be after the Brexit date that we had—I do not know whether we still do; that is for discussion.
This is a really serious problem: transferring all responsibility for railway safety and standards from the European railway agency to the Secretary of State in the event of a no-deal Brexit. It is very complex, as noble Lords said earlier, but in this case it is also unnecessary: there is a much simpler solution. My impression is that the reason that so many of these pieces of railway legislation, and those on air travel, are presented as a major change is because somebody in government does not like the word “Europe” in the title. We debated this last week when we were discussing the noise regulations in respect of airports, and I suggested to the Minister that there was a serious conflict of interest here, because if the Secretary of State—I am not being personal: any Secretary of State—is responsible for noise regulation at airports but is also pushing for all he or she is worth the third runway at Heathrow, it is in the Secretary of State’s interest that the noise regulations are as lax as possible. The lack of consultation was discussed then, and I fear the same is happening here.
There is a solution, which I shall come to. The European railway agency goes back a long time: I have been involved in it for probably more than 10 years. It means that there is one set of standards for the manufacture, export, testing and everything in the railway sector across Europe. There is the common requirement for safety, accident and other data, which the House also discussed this morning. It is extraordinary that the Government are introducing this massive change for what I call dogmatic reasons.
I give noble Lords an example of what happened about 10 years ago, which was one reason why the ERA was created. A rail freight wagon was developed in this country to take trucks piggybacked on it—mostly cement trucks. It worked very well. It was developed by a company called WH Davis, and it was so successful that it had an export order to operate in France. When it tried to get approval from the French regulatory authority to operate in France, the changes necessary—which were not that big but were significant—would not allow it to operate in this country. So there could not be a wagon that complied with both countries’ standards at the same time. That is a small example of why it was so important to make a European agency responsible for such things, which would also allow manufacturers in one country to apply to the ERA for approval if they thought that approval in one particular member state was being withheld for reasons that might be political.
There is, I am afraid, another more recent example of the Secretary of State’s involvement, involving station platform heights; I am sure that noble Lords are great experts on that subject. One of the reasons why the Government apparently do not like anything to do with the ERA is that it told them they could not have a certain station platform height for HS2, because it was different from the platform heights on similar high-speed lines on the continent. I am told that that caused a certain amount of anger: how dare Europe interfere? This is interesting, because the station platform height regulation applies to only four stations on HS2. All the other stations that HS2 trains will go into have Network Rail platforms, whose heights are all different anyway.
If the Government think that they are very good at such things, let us consider Crossrail station platforms. The Crossrail stations in the central section allow level boarding between the platform and the train—but unfortunately that height is different from all the other stations that Crossrail trains will go into at each end of the route, at Reading, Shenfield and wherever else. That means that someone in a wheelchair will need help at every station outside the centre: they will need not only a portable ramp, but a staff member to help them on and off the train. When I asked why we could not have one common station platform height for the centre sections and the outside sections, I was told that the European railway agency thought about the plan and questioned it, but because this is a metro service it does not have the wherewithal to challenge the Government. This is what the Government have achieved, which is unclear and will cost everybody a lot of money for a very long time.
It may be surprising, but the whole railway industry is I think in favour of the status quo with the European railway agency. Whether it be Network Rail, the Rail Delivery Group, the Railway Industry Association, the Rail Freight Group—I have already declared an interest as a former chairman of that—or the Chartered Institute of Logistics and Transport, they all want the status quo to continue. I have talked to them all, and if they have not gone public on this too much it is because many of them have had to sign ridiculous non-disclosure agreements. Let us hope that that will stop as soon as the Brexit debate finishes.
There are strong arguments for staying with the European railway agency. My preference would be to suggest an associate membership, such as the Swiss Government have. I have talked to people in Switzerland, both in railways and in government, and they say that it works fine. They are not on the boards, but they still get things done by talking to people. They mentioned the European Court of Justice. The Swiss do not like it, any more than our Government do. But when I asked whether that was a problem, they said, “No, we just carry on talking about it—but it works”. So I suggest that the solution is something like associate membership of the European railway agency. We should abandon this ridiculously complicated SI—which may get abandoned anyway if we do not bale out.
I hope that in her response the Minister can give me two assurances. One is that, assuming that this SI does not come into force, the Government will consider alternatives to the present idea when they look at it again—which they probably will unless we stay in the EU. The second is that they will discuss with the Swiss Government, the European Union and the European railway agency whether there is an arrangement that could enable the continuation of compliance and information sharing. I repeat: that is what the industry wants. It will save money and provide more export opportunities. It seems to me that there is no downside, apart from the fact that the European railway agency has “Europe” in its name. I beg to move.
Lord Liddle
I quite accept the point made by my noble friend but it is better than nothing and it provides hundreds of jobs in Durham. While my noble friend says it is just an assembly plant, how could such a plant operate in Britain if we decided to have different technical standards from those on the continent? That would completely destroy the business model on which that inward investment had been made.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to my noble friend for his words. Is he aware that Hitachi recently bought a firm in Italy that manufactures trains and signalling equipment? Can he imagine what would happen if it had to manufacture in all these places using different standards for the European markets and the UK?
Lord Liddle
As always, my noble friend Lord Berkeley makes an excellent point. I think that the Government have to come up with a better explanation for why we should be leaving these arrangements than the simple, “Why should we bother to be part of some European agency when we have left the European Union?”
Lord Berkeley
Will the Minister say something about what would happen in the event of the Prime Minister’s deal—in other words, not the cliff edge—and whether this SI would no longer apply? Would the Government bring back a similar SI or would they carry on as we are at the moment? What options are open?
Baroness Sugg
If the exit day is changed as agreed, the exit day in this SI would change as agreed. I do not want to predict what is going to happen over the next couple of days or the length of an extension, if there is one. Our position is still that we do not want to seek membership of the European Union Agency for Railways.
I understand noble Lords’ concerns in this area. I will take them back to the department and inform the Secretary of State of the strength of feeling on this. I hope I have provided reassurances on the consultation, the impact assessment and parliamentary scrutiny of any future divergence, which is the main and understandable concern of industry, whether manufacturers, importers, exporters or whatever.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, made a key point about volume. This is not an attempt to diverge from standards; it is simply that if we are no longer a member state, we will not have a vote in the European Union Agency for Railways, so these regulations remove the obligation to take its rules. If we decide to diverge, we will have full consultation and a full impact assessment and we will ensure that we inform Parliament. While this is a no-deal exit SI, the future relationship is always subject to conversation with the Commission and member states, should we get to an implementation period. We will have close conversations with them on this agency and other European agencies in the future partnership agreement.
I am not able to go any further on our future position with the European Union Agency for Railways at this stage, but the noble Lord’s position on it is clear and I will ensure I take it back and discuss it with the department. Given the assurances that there are no set plans to diverge, that we will consult, publish an impact assessment and inform Parliament, I hope that the noble Lord feels able to withdraw his Motion.
Lord Berkeley
I am grateful to the Minister. She has tried very hard to justify something which is probably impossible to justify. She talked about divergence, as did many noble Lords. Unfortunately, when people say there is going to be no divergence, it happens for political reasons. That is not just under this Government; it has been around since time immemorial. It helps to have an agency which is completely separate from the political process. As the noble Baroness, Lady Randerson, said, if it can work for air and sea, why can it not work for rail?
It may not matter, but I can see cost, bureaucracy and a loss of business coming from this SI. I very much hope that we do not leave the European Union in the manner that requires this SI to be implemented, but I have not heard what would happen in the event of our agreeing with the European Union another way out or even staying in—that is a different matter because we would stay in the ERA. I also have not heard a good argument for us not staying with the European Union Agency for Railways under associate membership. If Switzerland can do so, why not us? Switzerland has very good railways. We all have a process for derogations. We have been having derogations from the ERA for a long time. I am told that it has stopped giving us derogations, probably because it is so fed up with us at the moment, but that will not go on for ever.
I thank all noble Lords who have spoken in this debate. There seems to be solid support for stating in the European Union Agency for Railways, with the exception of the Minister and my noble friend on the Front Bench—he and I do not always agree on everything, and that is fine. I wish to test the opinion of the House.
Common Rules for Access to the International Market for Coach and Bus Services (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, the regulations that we are considering will be made under powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and will be needed in the event of no deal. This instrument amends the retained EU legislation governing access to the international passenger transport market and associated domestic implementing legislation to deal with deficiencies that would otherwise exist when the UK leaves the EU.
EU regulation 1073/2009 establishes the conditions for the international carriage of passengers by coach and bus within the EU and cabotage within member states by non-resident EU operators. It covers regular timetabled services and occasional services such as holidays and tours. It establishes for this purpose a system of Community licences, which act as the international bus and coach licences used within the EU, and enables these licences to be issued by the competent authorities of member states.
Section 3 of the withdrawal Act will preserve EU regulation 1073/2009 in domestic law, and Section 2 will preserve implementing domestic legislation, including the Public Passenger Vehicles Act 1981 and the Road Transport (International Passenger Services) Regulations 2018. This SI adjusts the language and references in those pieces of retained legislation, and five other pieces of legislation, to recognise that the UK is no longer a member state.
The SI also amends the retained UK version of regulation 1073/2009 to allow EU-based operators to continue to access the UK market in a no-deal scenario on a unilateral basis by means of the recognition of Community licences and control documents—other than new authorisations for regular services—issued by EU authorities under EU legislation. Existing authorisations for international regular services into the UK will continue to be recognised to avoid any additional administrative burden for operators.
This SI also covers Northern Ireland in its territorial extent. The devolved Administration have to make some consequential changes to their devolved legislation, and that is subject to a separate instrument.
The retained regulation 1073/2011 will apply only to EU-based operators. In the event of no deal, UK operators will be able to continue to access the EU market through accession to the Interbus agreement. This is an EU multilateral agreement that allows bus and coach operators to carry out occasional services between the participating countries—currently, the EU and seven other contracting parties in eastern Europe. At present, the UK is party to the agreement through its EU membership. Although the agreement currently covers only occasional services it is being extended to cover regular services, but this process has not yet concluded.
As part of contingency planning for no deal, the Government have deposited their instrument of accession to the Interbus agreement. This means that the UK will become a contracting party to the agreement in its own right. Due to the way the rules of the Interbus agreement apply, this will happen on 1 April. The Government are currently working closely with the European Commission to agree a way to close the two-day gap if we leave without a deal on 29 March.
In acknowledgment of the fact that the extension of the Interbus agreement to regular services will not be in place by exit day, the European Commission has extended the scope of its measure for an EU regulation on common rules ensuring basic road freight connectivity to include regular passenger services. This regulation was formally adopted by EU Ministers on Tuesday and will apply to UK passenger transport operators running regular services to and from the EU for the first nine months after exit, if we should leave without a deal. The Commission’s proposal is based on the UK reciprocating, and the draft regulations that we are considering today will reciprocate those conditions for EU operators in the UK.
Coach travel provides a low-cost, safe and environmentally friendly way to travel. Coaches from continental Europe bring in some 1.6 million visitors each year, and in Northern Ireland travel across the border is a commonplace daily activity, with 900,000 journeys per annum. These regulations allow for the continuation of EU bus and coach services in the UK and reciprocate the EU regulation so that UK regular services can continue to operate to and from the EU.
These regulations are essential to support our tourism industry and to ensure that international services can continue to run. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for bringing this SI and for her introduction. She has probably answered my question, but from reading paragraph 7.3 of the Explanatory Memorandum it looked as if UK operators would not be able to operate on the continent from 30 March. I think she has confirmed that that is no longer the case because of these more recent agreements. I hope we will be able to see a continuation of this important traffic without any interruption. What the French customs and immigration people do is of course a different matter, but let us hope that at least the services can run. I hope this will continue and that therefore the services that go to many member states across Europe can continue without getting bogged down in too much bureaucracy. As the Minister has said, it is a very important market.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, here is an SI that does not replicate what exists now, yet, astonishingly, there has been no formal consultation on it. The Explanatory Memorandum claims that it makes just technical amendments, but really it does much more than that. We must remember how important this industry is to us. Every year there are 3.6 million journeys to and from Britain by coach and 1.6 million overseas visitors coming to Britain by coach. That is 4% of all foreign tourists who come to Britain, and 83% of that 4% are from the EU. On the return leg, 1.1 million British residents go abroad by coach, of which 99% go to the EU. Looking at Northern Ireland, which is very important as well, there are 900,000 border crossings from Northern Ireland to the Republic and vice versa in a year.
The EU regulation allows reciprocal access for regular scheduled services and for occasional services—we would call them coach holidays. This SI provides unilateral access for current EU operators after Brexit in the hope that there will be reciprocal arrangements. I will turn to that later. The SI was originally recommended for the negative procedure. I was disturbed to see that, because I believe it is sufficiently important to be worthy of the affirmative procedure. Anyway, we are discussing it now.
I have some questions for the Minister. In future, EU coach operators will have to apply to the International Road Freight Office, when previously they received authorisation for coming to the UK from their home state. The DfT estimates that there could be up to 600 applications for authorisation for regular services at a cost to the Government of up to £95,500. Will the Government be charging an extra amount for this service? It did not need to exist before, so any charge would be additional. Is the IRFO being given sufficient additional resources? The Explanatory Memorandum also refers to a separate SI coming through for Northern Ireland. When will that be? Can we expect to see it in the next few days?
Obviously, things will be more complex and bureaucratic for EU operators. What will the Government do to make them aware of what they will have to conform to? What work are the Government doing with coach operators on the continent of Europe to make sure that the industry is fully aware of the change to the processes?
The Government hope to solve this problem in the long term by joining the Interbus agreement. The problem is, first, that the agreement does not allow cabotage and, secondly, that it applies at the moment only to occasional services. This will of course impact specifically on National Express and Translink in Northern Ireland, because they are the companies that provide the bulk of the regular services. Translink provides a lot of cabotage services as well.
In any event, the UK first has to join the Interbus agreement. I gather that the Government ratified it on 30 January. Will the final accession date that we were given of 1 April still apply if Brexit is deferred? Is it the case that we cannot accede until Brexit, or is 1 April a fixed date? At the moment, if we were to leave at the end of next week, there would be a two-day gap when services could not run. That might not seem like the end of the world, but it could be inconvenient and a real problem for the companies concerned. If they tried to run services without that specific authorisation there would obviously be insurance implications for them.
Lord Berkeley
Would the noble Baroness care to speculate as to whether progress would have been so fast if this had been called European Interbus?
Baroness Randerson
I think we have a complete rewriting of the dictionary in Britain at the moment. We are not allowed to use the word “European” in any technical or official sense.
The EU is proposing a regulation to maintain basic road connectivity, which the Minister referred to. Does she share my concern that this is for a very limited period? Part of it applies until December, but only until September in Northern Ireland for cabotage and so on. It is all very messy, and therefore very complex for those operating in that industry. Do the Government intend to publicise this on GOV.UK? I am seriously concerned that while this will not apply to big companies, small coach operators in particular—there are quite a few of them in the industry—will find it difficult to keep pace with the very complex changes that the EU and the Government between them are proposing as short-term solutions. What about progress with the bilateral agreements that the Government are proposing to sign? How many countries have signed up so far to those?
On the publicity to the general public for all this, we are coming up to peak coach holiday season at this moment. Easter will be the beginning of high season for coach operators. Are passengers fully aware that they are in a situation of some uncertainty in relation to the ability of UK coach operators to ply their trade in Europe?
Baroness Sugg
On 1 January 2020, assuming that we have all the signatories that we need and the Interbus agreement is in place, the main issue will be cabotage, as the Interbus agreement does not cover cabotage. UK operators will not be able to provide cabotage in the EU. There would be a separate arrangement for that for Ireland, but UK operators will not be able to do it. There is very limited UK-operator cabotage in the EU; as I said, most journeys go out and come back. However, that is the main implication and the main difference.
Lord Berkeley
Following up on that, I would have thought cabotage was pretty important for coach operators. Does this restriction apply in the other direction for continental operators coming here?
Baroness Sugg
This SI allows EU operators to continue cabotage operations. We do not have figures on how much cabotage takes place. The new EU unilateral regulations allow cabotage for regular and special regular services in the Irish border regions until 30 September 2019, when we will have something else in place. However, other cabotage is not permitted and, as I said, the Interbus agreement does not allow cabotage.
There is little exercise of cabotage from UK operators, because services are usually hired for a group of passengers who return to the UK, such as for a school trip or tour. Regular services allow cabotage as part of an international journey, but all current UK-to-mainland-Europe timetabled services, such as Eurolines, are operated by non-UK companies, so they will not be affected by Brexit.
As we have said, cabotage forms an integral part of cross-border bus journeys on the island of Ireland. Such services are incredibly important for remote communities. We recognise that the provision within the legislation proposed by the EU offers a solution, but that solution is based on reciprocity, which is what we are doing through these SIs.
I suppose that one could say that this is an asymmetric agreement at the moment. We are allowing cabotage within the UK, but these things are of a temporary nature. When we join the Interbus agreement and have future discussions with the EU on our relationship—
Maritime 2050 Strategy
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Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I welcome this report but does the Minister understand the importance of shipbuilding? The report states that the Government will,
“further develop the UK shipbuilding and maritime engineering industry, building on our global reputation for design, innovation and quality”.
All that applies to Appledore, which is due to close this Friday. What are the Government doing to make sure that they get more orders and find an operator for it?
Baroness Sugg
My Lords, we published the National Shipbuilding Strategy in 2017, which will help transform naval and commercial shipbuilding. In relation to Appledore, the Government have worked hard with Babcock to identify defence opportunities that could protect the yard. However, regrettably, we were unable to identify any potential solutions. The South West Business Council has created a task force to help to ensure a future for the Appledore yard and negotiations with potential proprietors are ongoing. I know that the noble Lord has made representations on this matter to the Maritime Minister, who has responded and is working closely with local stakeholders.
Aviation Safety (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, this draft instrument will be made using powers in the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and will be needed if the UK leaves the European Union in March without a deal.
The draft instrument corrects five principal EU regulations related to aviation safety, together with a number of Commission implementing regulations made under them. The draft instrument also makes some corrections to domestic legislation which establishes offences and penalties relating to the EU legislation. The most important of these is EU Regulation 2018/1139 —more commonly known as the EASA basic regulation —which establishes a comprehensive regulatory framework for aviation safety in the EU. In particular, it provides for the continued establishment of the European Aviation Safety Agency and the adoption by the European Commission of implementing regulations on aviation safety. These implementing regulations also ensure the EU member states can meet their obligations under the Convention on International Civil Aviation—the Chicago convention.
The implementing regulations each deal with a specific aspect of aviation safety regulation, including: the design, construction, maintenance and operation of aircraft; the licensing of flight crew, maintenance engineers and air traffic controllers; the provision of air traffic management and air navigation services; the design and operation of aerodromes. The other principal regulations are: Regulation 3922/91, on technical harmonisation, which has largely been replaced by the EASA basic regulation—but provisions on flight and duty time limitations still apply to the crews of aeroplanes undertaking air taxi, emergency medical service and single pilot commercial air transport operations; Regulation 2111/2005, which establishes the list of air operators banned from operating to the EU on safety grounds; Regulation 996/2010, which sets requirements for the investigation of air accidents and incidents; and, finally, Regulation 376/2014, which establishes requirements for civil aviation occurrence reporting.
Many of the corrections we are considering today are to clarify that the retained legislation only applies to the UK. For example, references to “the territory to which the treaties apply” are replaced with “the UK”, and references to “the competent authority” are replaced with references to “the CAA”. Other amendments relate to the relationship between member states. For example, requirements on the mutual recognition of licences are deleted, as are requirements on co-operation and the sharing of information.
The draft instrument also reassigns functions that currently fall to EU bodies. The majority of regulatory functions required under the EU regulations are currently undertaken by the competent authorities of member states. These include: licensing pilots, air traffic controllers and maintenance engineers; and certifying the airworthiness of individual aircraft. However, EASA is responsible for a number of functions, including: preparing proposals for new technical requirements and for amendments to existing technical requirements; approving organisations that design aircraft and aircraft engines as well as certifying the design of aircraft and engines types. The CAA will take on these functions, with the exception of those related to management of the EU safety regulatory system, which will be corrected so as to no longer apply. While design certification has formally sat with EASA since 2008, it is not a capability that the CAA has totally relinquished, and we are confident that the CAA will be able both to meet the needs of industry and to fulfil the UK’s international obligation as the “state of design”. The CAA is implementing contingency plans to ensure that it will be able to undertake the new functions effectively from exit day in the event of no deal.
The European Commission also has a number of functions under the EU regulations. Most notably, it has the power to adopt regulations, to adopt or amend technical requirements, to impose operating bans on airlines which do not meet international safety standards and make limited specified amendments to the principal EU regulations. All of these legislative functions will be assigned to the Secretary of State.
The powers to amend the retained principal EU regulations are very limited and are designed to ensure that the regulatory system can adapt to technical developments and changes to the international standards adopted by the International Civil Aviation Organisation—ICAO. Most notably, the Secretary of State may amend the annexes to the retained principal EU regulations, particularly the ones to the EASA basic regulation. The annexes contain the high-level safety objectives which are implemented through the technical requirements. This power is exercised through regulations subject to the negative resolution procedure.
In addition, the draft instrument also revokes four implementing regulations that set out internal procedures for EASA and which will become redundant after exit day. None of the amendments in this instrument changes any of the technical requirements established by the retained EU regulations. All valid certificates, licences and approvals issued by EASA or by EU/EEA states prior to exit day will remain valid in the UK by virtue of the withdrawal Act. The draft instrument provides that such certificates shall be treated as if they were issued by the CAA. The instrument limits the validity of most such certificates to two years after exit day, after which time CAA-issued certificates will be required. However, certificates related to aircraft design will remain valid indefinitely. The CAA needs to issue the safety certificates to have full oversight of aviation safety in the UK in accordance with the UK’s obligations under the Chicago convention.
The best outcome is for the UK to leave the EU with a deal, and delivering a deal negotiated with the EU remains the Government’s top priority. However, we must make all reasonable plans to prepare for a no-deal scenario. This draft instrument ensures that, in the event of a no-deal exit, legislation on aviation safety continues to work effectively and that the aviation industry has clarity about the regulatory framework in which it would operate in a no-deal scenario. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the noble Baroness for introducing these regulations. It would be good if she could say something further as a result of the Boeing accident a couple of days ago, which brings aviation safety into focus.
I have a couple of questions, and I will use the Explanatory Memorandum as a reference because it is easier. My first question is on paragraph 7.2, “Corrections to domestic subordinate legislation”. She said that most aircraft types are subject to EU technical requirements and that will be changed from “EASA aircraft” and “non-EASA” aircraft to “Part-21” and “non-Part-21”. What is the point of this, and has anybody seriously tried to get associate membership of EASA? I know “European” is in the name, which probably means that it is anathema to some members of the Government, but it would be a lot easier. I will probably bring this up when we debate railways as well. EU technical requirements are well known and well respected. We will have CAA technical requirements if this SI goes through. What happens when they diverge? Is there any mechanism for our side to talk to the European side? It is pretty stupid to have technical requirements for aircraft in this country that will be different—even to a small degree—from those in the European Union. Of course, the same applies vice versa. We tend to think only about the problems in this country, but for our planes to be able to fly on the continent, presumably somebody has to confirm with EASA or the Commission that the technical requirements of our planes fit in with their specifications.
My second question relates to paragraph 7.5 of the Explanatory Memorandum concerning banned operators. Quite a few rather unpleasant cases over the years come to mind. The paragraph refers to the,
“list of aircraft subject to an operating ban in the Community”.
That means that there is a list, which is great, but what process will there be for the UK and the European Union to share that list? It would be pretty stupid to have two lists, and I hope that the Minister can give us some comfort that there will be a mechanism for sharing, as this is a very important issue.
My last question relates to paragraph 7.8, which refers to,
“powers provided for in Single European Sky”.
That is an ambition that has not quite been achieved, although it is some of the way there. Do I understand that it will now be dumped, that there will be a single European sky that does not include the UK and that we will have our own little sky? I look forward to the Minister’s responses.
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, I thank the Minister for her opening statement. The Ethiopian Airlines crash has been a salutary reminder of the fundamental importance of aviation safety. Sometimes we take it for granted, but it relies on a complex interlocking of the highest standards for design, manufacture and maintenance, stringent standards for the training of flight crew and air traffic controllers, and exacting standards for the design and operation of airports. As aircraft have become more complex—the crash two days ago illustrates this point extremely well—and the skies become more crowded, the importance of international co-operation on the specification and maintenance of these standards has never been greater.
Yet this SI is intended to withdraw us from EASA and hence from access, as of right, to much of that international co-operation. I was very pleased that the Minister confirmed yesterday that the Government want to remain a member of EASA. I have no doubt that the Minister wishes to do so, but it was good to have the reassurance that that was the Government’s position. However, in the present political chaos, we cannot rely on this SI being simply a paper exercise.
Last November, the Second Legislation Scrutiny Committee drew our attention to this SI. It drew attention to the impact on CAA resources and to whether the EU will reciprocate in the recognition of licences, certificates and approvals. The UK will continue to have the same technical requirements and standards on exit day but, as the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, has just said, there are real questions over future changes and over whether and how we will keep in step with the EU. Next week, we will be looking at maritime SIs, and we are way behind in keeping up with the flow of maritime legislation. I have real concerns that in the aviation sector, where technology moves on really fast, we will not be on the ball in changing our standards as fast as the EU.
Lord Berkeley
On consultation, can the Minister assure me that there will no more use of non-disclosure agreements for this ongoing consultation? That is happening at the moment for whatever reason, but it does not need to be a precedent that carries on after Brexit.
Baroness Sugg
I agree with the noble Lord. We have used NDAs when commercial issues are at hand, for example on our US agreement. The aviation industry is not silent about Brexit. It has been very clear about its position. It is supportive of this draft instrument, but it is not supportive of no deal or leaving EASA; it is making that very clear and has done for quite some time. I genuinely do not feel that the industry has in any way been restricted by talking about its views on Brexit; it has been very vociferous on that point, and we are very aware of its views, which have influenced our position on EASA membership.
The noble Lord, Lord Tunnicliffe, asked about the removal of provisions dealing with the relationship with and co-operation between member states. As I said previously, our future relationship with EASA is going to be a matter for negotiation. We have been clear on our position. We very much hope that the EU will welcome that. It has been quite frustrating because the CAA has not yet been able to have conversations with EASA because of the position we are in with the negotiations. We stand ready, but we have not been able to do that because a deal has not yet been agreed. We will continue to participate in ECAC and ICAO, as participation in both organisations does not depend on being an EU state. Even in a no-deal scenario, we recognise the importance of co-operation and collaboration with our European and international partners and will continue to do that.
I think I have answered all the questions—
Aviation Noise (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for that introduction. I have two questions. The first relates to the noise regulations and the assessment of the aircraft. It is difficult to see how we can have two different bodies coming up with different solutions, so I suspect that it will not be easy to reach agreement on how much noise an aircraft makes in certain circumstances.
My biggest worry is over the appointment of what is called a “competent authority” in paragraph 7.6 of the Explanatory Memorandum. It seems to me that the word “independent” could be added to “competent”. If we look at issues on operating restrictions, in the debates over Heathrow Airport and its third or fourth runway—or whatever it is called today—for whatever reason the Government have come out very strongly in favour of it and there are now, I think, several judicial reviews to challenge them. I cannot see how the Government acting as a competent authority, however competent they might be, can be seen to be independent of their policy, particularly in relation to Heathrow, saying they want this and are going to bulldoze it through under whatever circumstances. There are serious issues here about independence. When it was the European authorities, there was clearly independence. Now there is not, and given the particular status of Heathrow—in my view, it should be changed, but that is a completely different issue—I cannot see how this can satisfy members of the public, especially those who live under the flight path, that the Government can set operating restrictions and at the same time demonstrate that they are completely independent of their views on developing an extended airport for London. I will be pleased to hear how the Minister thinks the Government can wriggle out of those two conflicting requirements.
Baroness Sugg
I thank noble Lords for their consideration of this statutory instrument. The regulations do not set noise policy; noise standards for aircraft are set by ICAO and we will continue to follow them.
On the point about the competent authority, last year we laid regulations that appointed competent authorities in England and Wales. The implementation provides for the local planning authority to be the competent authority when an application for any change is brought under the Town and Country Planning Act, but it also allows the Secretary of State for English airports or Welsh Ministers for Welsh airports to be the competent authority for called-in applications. Therefore, that matter is slightly separate from this SI.
The noble Baroness mentioned the balanced approach. Regulation 598 requires the competent authorities to take account of the balanced approach, and that requirement is kept by this SI. It will ensure that the balanced approach consists of identifying noise problems at specific airports and giving consideration to various measures that might be available to reduce noise. That is being carried over in its entirety.
Expansion at Heathrow is conditional on a package of mitigations. The NPS makes clear that noise mitigation measures should be put in place to ensure that the impact is limited. Again, that is going through the planning process following the judicial review process. We of course recognise that aviation noise is a key concern for communities living near airports. I regularly meet community groups and MPs to discuss this. We have played a leading role at an international level in relation to noise standards, and we will continue to promote further improvements in this area.
This SI does not change noise policy; it is concerned only with corrections as a result of EU exit. It does not impose restrictions; it is just a framework. We are consulting more widely on our noise policy, which we set at a national level through the aviation Green Paper consultation which we published in December. In that, we set out a number of policies designed to reduce noise and its impact, and that is how we will set our noise policy in future.
On consultation, in 2017 we consulted on proposals for appointing competent authorities, and the Scottish Government conducted a consultation on their proposals earlier this year. However, we have not consulted communities on this. The changes in Regulation 598 will not have a direct impact on overflown communities. They will ensure that the correct procedure is followed when operating restrictions are considered or it is proposed that they be imposed, but they will not change things for communities per se. As I said, that is being dealt with through the aviation strategy consultation.
There is a delegated power which provides for the Secretary of State to make secondary legislation under the negative procedure. It is about providing technical updates to the regulations, but again that power is limited to such updates to the noise certification standards and methodology indicators relating to the assessment of noise impact at an airport. Again, those updates are limited within the regulations to account for changes to relevant international rules.
As with the previous SI that we discussed, we will continue to follow the international rules. We have been leading the way with our noise policy and are suggesting further measures to improve it through the consultation. We will publish our final aviation strategy later this year, which we hope will address the understandable concerns of communities around the airport. However, that noise policy is not directly relevant to the SI we are discussing, which simply ensures that in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU there will be continuity of aircraft noise standards and certification and of the process when operating restrictions are considered at airports.
Lord Berkeley
Perhaps I may press the Minister a little further on the competent authority. I think she said that the competent authority for Heathrow would be the Secretary of State, but I recall that over the past 30, 40 or 50 years, Ministers of different persuasions have had a major influence on what happens at Heathrow. It does not matter which party has been in power; a Minister either likes it or does not like it. There is a perception that these Ministers have encouraged studies, shall we say, or other independent work to support their particular opinion. I suppose that is part of the political process for Heathrow, but nobody will have any confidence if a Secretary of State is promoting very hard an expansion of Heathrow while being the competent authority in deciding whether the noise is too great or too little, or whatever. I appreciate that this SI—
Lord Berkeley
I was just concluding. I wanted to note that, as we all know, this SI will come into force only if there is a hard Brexit. However, it would be good to have the Minister’s assurance that, depending on the type of Brexit we have—if there is no Brexit, it will not matter, but it will matter if there is some type of Brexit—if and when she brings these regulations back again she will take into account the question raised by several noble Lords about the competent authority and independence when it comes to Heathrow and perhaps other airports as well.
Baroness Sugg
I understand the noble Lord’s point, but competent authorities will not be appointed by this SI. That was done last year following extensive consultation. As I said, that role was to follow the balanced approach of ICAO. Article 3 of Regulation 598/2014 requires competent authorities to be independent.
Of course, the Government and the Secretary of State are allowed a position on airport expansion. They are very clear on the benefits that expansion at Heathrow will bring. That will have an impact, which is why we set out lots of requirements in the national policy statement. The Secretary of State is not deciding on the planning process; that is being done through the independent planning process, as is right.
Under Regulation 598, the appeal route is broadly aligned with the planning process, so there may be scope to challenge any local planning authority’s decision related to operating restrictions. That is the appeal process under the Town and Country Planning Act 1990. For all other cases, including where the Secretary of State was the decision-maker, judicial review would be the appropriate route for challenging that decision. There is independence there on the granting of planning permission and the appeal route.
As I said, I very much understand the impact aviation noise can have on communities. As Aviation Minister, I am alive to it, which is why we suggested many new noise policies in our consultation on the aviation strategy. This SI is purely about the regulatory framework and will ensure the continuity of aircraft noise standards and certification and the process for considering operating restrictions at airports in the event of no deal. Noise policy is covered extensively elsewhere.
Baroness Sugg
For this SI, they did not because the communities are not going to be affected by it. We consulted when we were appointing competent authorities because that will affect them. That was properly consulted on in 2017 ahead of those regulations coming into force. We did not consult on this SI because we do not believe that it is going to affect communities. It is purely about transferring the regulatory framework and not about the noise or competent authority policies. We are having a full consultation now on our aviation strategy after setting out some policy positions. We will certainly meet community groups; we are meeting community groups and will continue to meet them as the consultation evolves and the strategy develops.
Lord Berkeley
My Lords, the Minister is right that there is no change in policy but, as I understand it, there is a change of the organisation or person who is the competent authority. It is now the Secretary of State and before it was somebody from one of the European organisations. There is a change and that introduces a conflict of interest.
Baroness Sugg
There is a change, but to the relevant authority not the competent authority. The competent authority is staying the same. Competent authorities were consulted on and set in the previous regulations. Under current EU law, they have an obligation to report operating restrictions to the Commission. Instead, under this SI they will have an obligation to report operating restrictions to the relevant authority. In some cases, that will be the Secretary of State, in others, it will be the Scottish Government. I do not believe there is a conflict of interests because the competent authority remains the same; it is purely who it reports to that will change. There are the same reporting obligations but just to a different person.
Aviation Statistics (Amendment etc.) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
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The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Department for Transport (Baroness Sugg) (Con)
My Lords, these draft regulations will be made under the powers conferred by the European Union (Withdrawal) Act 2018 and the European Communities Act 1972. Unlike our two previous SIs, some provisions in this instrument will be needed if we leave without a deal, but specific provisions relating to an enforcement power are needed regardless of the outcome of EU exit negotiations.
The regulations amend EU Regulations 437/2003 and 1358/2003 and seek to maintain the status quo with regard to the provision of data by operators of airports served by commercial flights. This is achieved by making technical changes to ensure that retained legislation continues to function, including amending redundant references to the UK being a member state. A further part of this instrument, made under the European Communities Act 1972, also creates a mechanism to enforce the obligation on airports to provide data, because there is currently no penalty if an airport does not comply.
This SI was proposed as a negative instrument, but we have accepted the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee’s recommendations to re-lay it using the affirmative procedure, acknowledging its concerns around the potential impact of these changes on commercial airport operators. I thank that committee for its consideration of this SI.
This draft instrument amends two pieces of EU legislation. The first of those is EU Regulation 437/2003, referred to as the statistical returns regulation, which requires operators of airports served by commercial flights to provide their member state with specified statistical data. In its existing form, the regulation specifies information that must be compiled by the member state—a function completed by the Civil Aviation Authority. It also requires that the same information must be provided to the European Commission’s statistical office, Eurostat. It further sets in place standards that must be met during the compilation and submission process. Secondly, it amends EU Regulation 1358/2003, referred to as the implementing regulation, which requires that the process set out in the statistical returns regulation is applied to a set list of airports and updates the list of statistical information that said airports must supply. The list of airports is effectively comprised of all airports that see commercial air traffic. This list included 46 airports across the UK at the point of its last update by the EU.
The withdrawal Act will retain both these regulations in their entirety. The draft instrument we are considering makes the changes necessary so that they continue to function correctly. That is essential to ensure that the regulatory regime in place continues to allow statistics on the total volumes of passengers and freight using UK airports to be compiled. The gathering of such data and the publication of derived figures are activities that are important for the Government, the public and the sector itself to be able to monitor performance.
This draft instrument amends the statistical returns regulation to remove the duty on the UK to continue to transmit this data to Eurostat. The power to collect statistical data and the obligation on respondents to provide that data are to be retained, with responsibilities for these functions given to the CAA.
This instrument amends the implementing regulation to remove the specific list of airports covered. This list is in fact superfluous, as the existing implementing regulation also contains a mechanism that sets the burden of data collection at different levels dependent on the volume of traffic seen by an individual airport. The mechanism will remain in the retained EU regulations, so that what is expected of airports will stay the same as it is now. The data collection power provided is an important tool for accessing data due to the competitive and commercially sensitive nature of the sector. As such, it is important that this legislation continues to operate after the UK has left the EU.
During the preparation of this instrument, a review of the statistical returns regulation highlighted the requirement for an enforcement mechanism in this instrument to meet the UK’s responsibility as a member state. This is why the SLSC recommended this instrument be upgraded. This instrument therefore provides a mechanism whereby the CAA can enforce the obligation on airports to provide the data specified. In determining the penalty, enforcement mechanisms in similar pieces of legislation were considered so as to not go beyond prior precedent. Consequently, the department decided to match the enforcement powers that exist within the Airport Charges Regulations 2011, with a civil penalty of up to £5,000. This part of these regulations is required regardless of final decisions on the UK’s future relationship with the EU. As I say, it is there to meet our responsibility as a member state.
The best outcome for the UK is to leave the EU with a negotiated agreement, but this instrument ensures that, in the event of a no-deal exit from the EU, statistics on the total volumes of passengers and freight using UK airports can continue to be compiled and published. I beg to move.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, I shall be quick. I note that in paragraph 7.2 of the Explanatory Memorandum, the Government think that,
“The gathering of such data … of derived figures are activities that are crucial for Government, the public and the sector itself to be able to monitor performance”.
However, paragraph 7.7 suggests it is no longer appropriate for any of these statistics to be given—they can be given to the Secretary of State, if he so directs—to anybody else in Europe. Why is that? Would we not want data from there? Would it not be helpful for our ongoing air services between the whole of the European Union and the UK if we exchanged this statistical data? Or will we put a ring around ourselves and pretend that Europe does not exist? Surely it would be useful—and the Government say it is useful. Why is no mention made of the CAA being able to share this information with the relevant European body?
Baroness Randerson (LD)
My Lords, airport operators currently provide their statistics to the CAA, which passes them on to Eurostat. This is to be replaced, according to this SI, with a system whereby airport operators give the information to the CAA, which then provides that data to the Secretary of State if directed—not by legal obligation but if directed.
There are four problems with the SI. First, statistics collected on a national basis are much less useful and meaningful than international statistics. As the noble Lord said, there is no guarantee that this information will be shared internationally.
Secondly, there is no obligation on the Secretary of State to even want to see the statistics. What will he do with them? There is no obligation on the Secretary of State to publish them. Therefore, one has obvious concerns about transparency. Statistics should be important for the Government; they are certainly important for the public and the industry itself to monitor performance. The CAA already collects this data, but it will be of much less use for comparative purposes as matters stand in the SI.
The third problem is the impact of changing rules on exactly how the data is expressed and collected. This is the kind of internal thing that happens in any organisation. If you change the order of the questions or one or two words in the questions, you impact the results. It does not matter that much if you are looking across the piece and everyone is obeying the same rules, but we will be collecting our data on a different basis. I more or less guarantee that, within a year or two, we will be told that our data is no longer comparable because of differences in collection procedure.
Finally, there is the new power of the CAA referred to in the SI to impose a £5,000 fine if an airport does not provide data. I am not entirely clear about this, and I would be grateful if the Minister could clarify. I believe that this is a new power; I am not sure that the CAA has it at the moment. If it does, what is the fine, because £5,000 seems derisory as a fine on a large organisation for failing to provide data? It would cost Heathrow Airport or Gatwick Airport a great deal more than £5,000 to collect the data, so there would be an incentive not to bother. Where does £5,000 come from? Has it been thought through as a penalty that should be paid by a large commercial organisation? It does not seem worth it.
Aviation: Boeing 737 MAX 8 Jets
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Baroness Sugg
Following the Lion Air crash, Boeing, the manufacturer, issued an emergency safety bulletin and the FAA and EASA issued an emergency airworthiness directive. That mandated that 737 MAX 8 operators revise the flight manual and training procedures to prepare pilots to deal with the same incident that the Lion Air pilot appeared to experience. Of course, before the aircraft entered into service, the CAA conducted a safety assessment that took into account the preliminary findings from the Lion Air accident and the EASA airworthiness directive. As I said, this accident happened yesterday and we are keeping in close contact with those investigating it.
Lord Berkeley (Lab)
My Lords, most people would believe that if Boeing issued new instructions and safety rules after the Lion Air accident four months ago, they were probably defective as another accident has happened. Will we have to wait another four months before any action is taken? That seems a risky policy.
Baroness Sugg
The accident happened yesterday and obviously, we are looking carefully into what caused it. As I said, an airworthiness directive was issued and acted on. We are working closely with EASA and the FAA on any further steps we should take.