Merchant Shipping (Counting and Registration of Persons on board Passenger Ships) (Amendment) Regulations 2023

Lord Berkeley Excerpts

Monday 4th December 2023 Lords Chamber

Moved by

[Lord Berkeley]

That this House welcomes the contribution to passenger safety made by the Merchant Shipping (Counting and Registration of Persons on board Passenger Ships) (Amendment) Regulations 2023 but regrets the delay in the introduction of the regulations and that they do not cover passengers travelling on non-passenger ships.

Relevant document: 49th Report from the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, Session 2022-23.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am pleased to move this Motion to Regret tonight. Effectively, I am trying to probe some of the issues that are raised in these draft regulations. I must say to start with that I support everything that is in them, because they have very serious and helpful safety implications.

I suppose my first question for the Minister is the usual one with such regulations. Why has it taken 24 years from the original 1999 regulations for this new draft to be brought before your Lordships’ House?

I think it is really important that there is a requirement to record the number and details of the passengers on passenger ships, both going around the UK or going to or from the UK, but I have a number of questions on the way these regulations are drafted. It may be because I am too stupid to understand them, but it may be that other people share that concern, and I shall be pleased to hear the Minister’s answers.

My first question, which also applies to the regulations of 24 years ago, is why these regulations appear to apply only to passenger ships? Many people go on journeys in freight ships; sometimes they are long, probably going internationally, and sometimes they are around the coast. I rather too regularly use a freight ship that goes from the Isles of Scilly to Penzance, which is beyond 20 miles and so comes within that limit. It is a freight ship, and it is quite good for taking freight. It is not particularly comfortable, but it will take up to 12 passengers—and of course the number 12 is quite critical for many other safety rules. I think it has seats for about six, and it is very nice that, when the crew are having a good fry-up on their four or five-hour journey, they will not make you a cup of tea either.

That is irrelevant, but what appears odd is that there seems to be no requirement of the operator to report who the passengers are. In other words, if something happens to that ship and we all drown, I do not know how the authorities will know who we are. If it had been a passenger ship, the names would have gone to the coastguards or wherever, which would have helped with identifying the bodies and everybody else. I hope none of that happens, but it seems extraordinary to me that, on a freight ship, the operator apparently does not have to do report who is on it and their names and addresses.

I suppose the biggest question I have concerns Regulation 9, on “exemptions”. I am not quite sure what “exemptions” means. Again, I may just be being ignorant and stupid, but are they exemptions from actual reporting or exemptions relating to how you report? We are moving into the electronic age, and it is quite right that the quicker the passenger list can be transmitted off the ship, the faster the ship can leave, which is a good thing. But it is a bit odd that, having brought in these regulations, we have so many exemptions, which means that, basically, anybody can be given an exemption.

Regulation 9(2) says that

“the Secretary of State may exempt any passenger ship … if the scheduled voyages of such ship, class of ship or group of ships render it impracticable for that ship, class of ship or group of ships, to comply with those requirements”.

I cannot see what circumstances would prevent the master or owner of the ship telling the coastguard who is on the ship and giving their names and addresses; they will have provided them before they get on the ship. Maybe the Minister can help me with that. If these exemptions are important, the whole point of this regulation is almost lost. If there are so many ways that the Minister can wriggle out of it, for good or bad reasons, what is the point of it?

In its 49th report, the Secondary Legislation Scrutiny Committee, in answer to question 4, has a good list of comments. It says that the restrictions came from the original directive, and that:

“The exemption provisions were complex and restricted the scope of the exemption power to just certain vessels on certain types of routes with restrictive conditions”.


It goes on to say that, basically, the Secretary of State can decide to change whatever these restrictions are. Question 5 asks:

“What makes it ‘impractical for the shipowner to comply?’”


The Minister’s answer is:

“This would depend on the circumstances … on a case-by-case basis”.


I know a lot of work has gone into this document and I am sure it is very good overall, but whether shipowners and skippers understand what they have to do, and whether it was worth all the effort, I am not sure. Can the Minister perhaps explain to a landlubber like me what it is all about, why it is so important and who can wriggle out of giving him any information? I beg to move.

[Lord Greenway (CB)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley, for allowing us to discuss these regulations. Before I go further, I would like to welcome the Minister to his new maritime role. He has a steep learning curve, and I can only wish him well.

We are moving more and more to computers, left, right and centre; everything is computerised. In a way that is a good thing and I welcome it, but we all know that computers go wrong so I am slightly worried that systems that are meant to work will not always do so. What is the back-up position if that happens?

--- Later in debate ---

I am conscious that perhaps not all the technical points have been answered. As I said at the outset, I shall respond to them in writing. I hope that noble Lords agree that these regulations are important to ensure a sensible approach that combines safety and pragmatism for UK passenger ship operators. The requirements do not need to apply to non-passenger ships, as operators can make their own appropriate arrangements for the very small numbers of passengers that may be carried on those vessels.

[Lord Berkeley (Lab)]

My Lords, I am grateful to the Minister for his comprehensive reply. He is new to the post, and I think that he has tried very hard and given us some good answers. I am very grateful to other noble Lords who have contributed to this very short debate. I look forward to the Minister’s answers in writing in due course.

However, I have one question on the issue of passengers on freight ships. The Minister said that on non-passenger vessels the company—the skipper, presumably—holds all the details of the passengers. Sadly, ships do sink, as the noble Baroness said earlier. The last one that I recall is a car-carrying ship that sank off the Netherlands; it set itself on fire and it sank. I do not think that there were any casualties, but there could have been. There is not much point, if a ship sinks, of all the records going down with it. This is not so much to do with this particular instrument—it is outwith its scope, I think—but the Government might want to look at the fact that it is an international agreement that you do not have to keep the information about people somewhere other than on the ship. Perhaps the Minister could put that in his letter when he replies. On that basis, I beg leave to withdraw the Motion.

Motion withdrawn.