Sir Edward Heath: Operation Conifer

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to be allowed to speak briefly in the gap.

Ted Heath was a family friend for a reason that we have not mentioned so far—his passionate love of music. He became a good friend of my father and would come to dinner. I was always struck by his behaviour and his sweetness.

I want to put one thing on the record, because it is very important. Many years later, when she was in her 90s, I interviewed Barbara Hosking on “Private Passions”. Many noble Lords will remember that she was a very distinguished civil servant who looked after Ted for many years. She told me that the principal thing that she managed to do for him was to save him from wearing an appalling cardigan when he was about to conduct the LSO. She said, “What are you going to wear?” He came up with a tattered thing with a hole in it and she said, “You can’t possibly wear that”.

I asked her about these allegations and said, “Would you agree with me? From my experience, Ted was if anything asexual”. She said, “Absolutely”. In all the years that she worked intimately for him, she never saw a hint of anything else. This is important, and I think she would want me to say this, because she is of course now dead. Given that we have to reconsider this man in the light of these appalling, outrageous allegations, it is important to take on evidence like that. She thought that he was probably asexual and certainly that he had nothing to do with behaviour of this sort.

Public Order Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest because I am going to follow the noble Lord in talking about young people. I am the president of the YMCA. A lot of those young people would have been caught up in the language the noble Lord referred to. I find it extraordinary.

When I was Bishop of Stepney, I was stopped and searched. The police officer who stopped me and searched my car asked me who I was. When I said that I was a bishop, he did not believe me. He then saw my dog collar and said, “Whoops”. The matter was of course taken up by the then leader of the city police. Thankfully, the gentleman acknowledged that it was him.

It is not just young people. It is not just black people. Your Lordships have heard the noble Lord, Lord Deben, telling us about his children. The power to stop and search somebody without a very clear definition gives me a lot of bother. I am a believer, and I love belief. The Bill says that the section of powers

“to stop and search without suspicion … applies if a police officer … reasonably believes”,

but how do you work that out? Was it in your head? Was it in your heart? Was it in the things you had read or seen on television? Friends, the word “belief” is so dangerous. The old “reasonable grounds for suspecting” is in there too. I would rather this section of the Bill did not exist.

I was on the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. I am sorry to mention it because the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, is in her place. We went around the country, and people had been stopped and searched so many times when the police did not have reasonable grounds to suspect them yet believed they were about to commit a crime.

The Stephen Lawrence inquiry gives a definition of the grounds on which you can suspect. The Bill is about public order and, therefore, some of the exceptions that the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, was talking about cannot be extended to it. Those are there, but they are not for this Bill. Do noble Lords seriously want a police officer to “reasonably believe” and then do it? How will you question that? They will simply say, “I believed it”. That cannot be good for a country of this kind.

I want noble Lords to read the Stephen Lawrence inquiry again—about the failures of the different ranks. Inspectors did not do too well during our inquiry. They are the de facto junior rank. I hear again that there are not many superintendents about. If the Bill is built on that, you need a much higher rank of police officer, not an inspector. If not many are about and this is what the Government want to do, increase the role of the chief superintendent to deliver this clause, which I think is unnecessary.

My dear friends, it is for those reasons: for the many young people of YMCA, and many like them who would have to think twice before going on a demonstration. For a country that believes that there is a right to protest—not a right to violence—you are really cutting them off. If the Minister really insists that this must go in, then the rank of a chief superintendent is a must. A police officer acting on the grounds of their beliefs, however reasonable they may be, is not a protection for the police officer or for the person being stopped and searched.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I lived in Notting Hill for many years, near All Saints Road, on the route of the carnival. During the carnival especially, it was a joy to often see police officers entering into the spirit and dancing. That was absolutely wonderful. We must not paint this one way or the other. But, more often than not, I saw examples, especially not during carnival, where stop and search was used in an incredibly provocative way. Having lived there for many years, I would say that there was no more socially divisive thing about policing than stop and search. I beg noble Lords to think very carefully about inflaming this position.

As I said, I met many police officers who behaved wonderfully, but there were and still are some who stop and search far too often and, as we have heard, it is on black people on the whole. If we want a socially cohesive society, we must not make laws that threaten and may undo that. I would really counsel caution about this. Anything that can help us not go too far, such as the amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, should be supported.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I will intervene very briefly to make two points. I spent about eight years overseeing police work on counterterrorism in London and more generally. The use of the Section 44 power, which gives the police the power to stop without suspicion, was one that most people, when they thought about it, would say was acceptable: they understood that they were in an area where there was an obvious terrorist target and heightened concern.

When that power was exercised, was it without controversy? I am afraid that the answer is no. There was enormous resentment towards it, precisely because of the issues about disproportionality that have already been referred to and the complications that ensued from that.

That was in circumstances when most people might understand it, when they had it quietly explained to them—which does not usually happen during the course of a normal stop and search—that, “We’re stopping you, because we’re in this area, you are close to this and we are stopping people at random, just to make sure that they are not carrying explosives or a bomb”. But this is about circumstances where people are engaging in a demonstration or exercising their civil rights. That is of a completely different order and what makes this disproportionate.

My second point may sound trivial by comparison. We have had the point made about what rank of officer should look at this. It was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that it might be quite difficult to find a chief superintendent at the right moment. All I would say is, if this is a matter of such seriousness that we are being asked to approve these extraordinary, disproportionate powers, then there should be a chief superintendent or people of equivalent rank overseeing and supervising what is happening.

Security Threat to UK-based Journalists

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. He is absolutely right: between 2020 and 2022, Iran did try to collect intelligence on UK-based Israeli and Jewish individuals. We believe this information was preparation for future lethal operations. My right honourable friend in the other place highlighted that Iran has not just targeted Jews and Israelis; it has targeted LGBTQ communities, Muslims and Christians. That is not just a flagrant betrayal of the principles of international law but, as my right honourable friend also said, a betrayal of ancient principles of Persian culture. So I entirely agree with my noble friend that we should be vigilant and on guard as to the former. I absolutely salute the efforts that he described in Abu Dhabi. Anything that promotes dialogue and tolerance between religions, or indeed peoples, has to be applauded and encouraged. I will certainly encourage the Government to do that very volubly.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, this Statement is a trenchant response and I congratulate the Government on it. However, perhaps I could follow up on the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, and the Minister’s reply. I want to stress the extraordinary soft power represented by what the BBC is doing. The Minister was right to mention the number. In fact, the Persian service reaches 22 million globally, 13 million in Iran. I think there are fears, despite the reassurances, that it will be hard to keep up the level of broadcasting that I am sure, in many ways, the Minister and the Government would like to see. It is an extraordinary soft power. The Minister mentioned just now the cultural importance of Persia—I could not agree more. It is that communication of culture—our culture to them and their culture to us—that is so important. I still like to believe, in these awful days, even with Russia, that it is through culture and through sport that we can sometimes find a means of speaking to each other.

Public Order Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 7th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, there cannot be any legitimate objection to journalists, legal observers, academics or even members of the public who want to observe and report on protests or on the police’s use of their powers related to protests. We have seen in incident after incident how video footage of police action, whether from officers’ own body-worn video or that taken by concerned members of the public, has provided important evidence in holding both protesters and police officers to account for their actions. The need for this amendment is amply evidenced by the arrest and detention of the accredited and documented broadcast journalist, Charlotte Lynch, while reporting on a Just Stop Oil protest. It is all very well for noble Lords to say, “Well, if somebody was arrested in the way that Charlotte Lynch was arrested, it was unlawful”, but the fact is that Charlotte Lynch was taken out of the game for five hours and detained in a police cell, where she could not observe what was going on. We need upfront protection for journalists and observers, and not to rely on a defence that they can put after they have been handcuffed, arrested, and put in a police cell even though they are in possession of a police-accredited press pass. We support this amendment and will vote for it if the noble Baroness divides the House.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, there is something to be said for semaphore in the wider sense. That is, one of the problems that I think many noble Lords have had with the Bill is that it is sending a signal, as the noble Lord, Lord Patten, just suggested, against freedom of expression. Certainly, we need clarity in making law—I have changed my mind on two amendments today thanks to the interventions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. However, I will not change my mind on this one, because I think back to those women who were dragged around at the protest after Sarah Everard’s murder and who themselves filmed what was going on, to the disgust of the whole nation. Sometimes semaphore is very important. We are looking not just at the fine lines of the law today but at the message we are sending to the population: that we are a free society and that we want a free press. I will support the amendment.

Public Order Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

I believe the Deputy Speaker so directed at the outset of this debate—but I will be corrected if I am wrong about that.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to ask the noble Lord, and not from a musical perspective, whether if we change the words “more than minor” to “major” we might not make some progress, because surely that is what they mean.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

I am conscious that an expert musician will certainly know the difference between minor and major. I take refuge in the fact that there is no such amendment before us, so perhaps I do not need to answer that today.

Metropolitan Police Service

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 29th June 2022 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, I thank the noble Baroness for repeating the Statement made by another Minister in the other place.

The letter from Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire & Rescue Services to the Acting Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Sir Stephen House, apparently contains a catalogue of failings. These include not only the misogyny, racism and homophobia characterised by the tragic murder of Sarah Everard; the failings in the tragic murders of Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman, including the sharing of selfies taken with their dead bodies; the revolting messages shared on a Charing Cross police station WhatsApp group; and the failings in relation to the murders of Anthony Walgate, Gabriel Kovari, Daniel Whitworth and Jack Taylor, written off as self-administered drug overdoses instead of the actions of a serial killer because they were gay men, but also the failings in day-to-day policing.

Besides theses high-profile cases, can the Minister confirm an estimated 69,000 crimes are going unrecorded each year, less than half of crime recorded within 24 hours, and virtually none recorded when anti-social behaviour is reported? If not, why does the Minister not have the content of the HMIC letter? Besides the strip-search of a schoolgirl because it was thought she smelt of cannabis, and the high-profile, controversial stop and searches—such as that of a champion athlete—can the Minister confirm that, in 25% of stop and searches, officers failed to record the grounds for the search in sufficient detail to enable an independent judgment to be made as to whether reasonable grounds existed?

And this Government want to give the police more powers, including those for the police to conduct stop and search without having to have any reasonable grounds. Can the Minister explain why this is, when they cannot be trusted with the powers they already have—powers the police have not even asked for?

In the HMICFRS inspection after the Daniel Morgan report, HMICFRS concluded that the Metropolitan Police’s approach to tackling corruption was not fit for purpose. I was a Metropolitan Police officer for over 30 years, and I am appalled by the litany of failings identified by HMICFRS. I am angry that so many honest, decent police officers have been failed by a minority of their colleagues, but mainly by their chief officers who have not addressed these failings.

I do not accept the view that the majority of police officers do not want to do the right thing, but I also do not deny the lived experience of black people and women in particular at the hands of the police. I accept that, without effective leadership which challenges racism, sexism, homophobia and other forms of corruption, it becomes more difficult for good officers to do the right thing. I also accept that, without adequate resources, it is more difficult for decent, honest, hard-working police officers to provide the service they want to provide —the service the public deserve.

The Home Secretary faces a dilemma. The Metropolitan Police Service needs a brave, courageous leader who is prepared to speak out, tell the truth and bring about seismic change in the service—just the sort of person the Home Secretary does not want. It needs someone who is going to make it difficult for her and the Government when they expose the true nature and extent of the Met’s shortcomings, and when they speak out when the Home Secretary and the Government fail to give them the backing they need in order to succeed.

Neil Basu, for example, currently the most senior serving Asian officer, has been a champion of diversity and has an outstanding track record, but he failed to be appointed as the new head of the National Crime Agency despite being on a shortlist of two, both of whom were rejected by the Home Secretary. Why?

The last-minute, no-notice political attack on the Mayor of London by the Minister in the other place was disgraceful. If anything, does this not show the ineffectiveness of the system of police and crime commissioners? It should be noted that, of the six forces in special measures, four have Conservative PCCs, and the two others have directly elected mayors.

The Metropolitan Police Service does not need another commissioner who promises not to rock the boat, who goes along with cuts in police resources that impact on operational effectiveness, and who does not stand up to the Home Secretary and the Government. Decent, honest, hard-working police officers deserve better. When will the Government appoint the right person, with the right backing, to turn this appalling situation around?

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords—

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, I thank both noble Lords for the points they have made. I join them in deeply regretting the death of Zara Aleena and all the other people they mentioned—far too many —who have been killed and the examples of poor or bad practice within the Metropolitan Police. This underlines the reason we are here today, which is the “engage” process that has been triggered. I think we probably all agree on that. The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, made the point that we all have our part to play, and I totally agree with that.

Both noble Lords also made the point about the Statement given in the House of Commons being different to the one shared beforehand. I listened to my right honourable friend’s response, and, basically, the points he made reflected his experience while he was deputy mayor for policing in London. That was the reason he gave; I repeat it here. Clearly, what he said was part of the experience he had.

The noble Lords, Lord Coaker and Lord Paddick, made the point that it is depressing to read the report, and both were absolutely right that so many Metropolitan police officers are excellent—they are. They run into danger as opposed to running away from it. I think there will be police officers in the Met who are glad that this has happened, because it gives a fresh opportunity to address some of the very serious issues that I have addressed at this Dispatch Box time and again.

Both noble Lords mentioned Child Q in their questions. That was a particularly shocking episode. As both noble Lords probably know, the use of strip-search is covered by Code C of PACE 1984, which sets out the processes that police must follow when using that power. It can be carried out only by police officers of the same sex as the individual being searched. When searching a child, an appropriate adult must be present, unless the child specifically requests otherwise and the appropriate adult agrees. This is set out in the PACE code and must be followed by the police.

Since the publication of the safeguarding report into Child Q, the Met has ensured that officers and staff have a fully refreshed understanding of the policy for conducting a further search, particularly the requirement for an appropriate adult to be present. It has given officers advice around dealing with schools, ensuring that children are treated as children and considering safeguarding for under-18s. It has delivered training on adultification to all front-line officers in the Central East Command Unit, which covers Hackney and Tower Hamlets. It has reviewed the policy for further searches for those under 18 and made changes to ensure that it recognises that in these circumstances a child may be vulnerable to being a victim of exploitation. It has also introduced new measures so that an inspector must now give authority before the search takes place, to ensure there is appropriate oversight. A Merlin report must also be submitted to ensure that the safeguarding of the child is the priority.

The noble Lord, Lord Coaker, talked about the answering of 999 calls. I understand that 70% are answered within 10 seconds, but clearly we could do better. That is probably the answer there. The noble Lord talked about the victims Bill. Pre-legislative scrutiny ends at the end of July, and we expect the Bill to be introduced in September or October.

Both noble Lords talked about a combination of abuse of position, which of course the Angiolini inquiry is dealing with, and corruption, which HMICFRS did an inspection on, on the back of the Daniel Morgan Independent Panel report. The acting commissioner publicly committed to implementing all the 20 recommendations that it made. Most importantly, the noble Baroness, Lady Casey, has done her review into the culture in the police. The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, talked about some of the cultural manifestations, with gay men and black people being treated as somehow less than their white or heterosexual counterparts. I think the noble Baroness will have delved into that. There were also of course the terrible murders committed by Stephen Port. In many ways, those investigations were treated less properly than they should have been.

Both noble Lords asked me about the process for appointing the Met Police chief. Obviously, it is written into law. I cannot comment on individuals who have applied, but the Home Secretary will take into account the comments of the Mayor of London.

The noble Lord, Lord Paddick, asked me about the 69,000 crimes that go unrecorded and said that in 25% of stop and searches the reasons are unrecorded. I cannot confirm or deny that because I do not have the figures before me, but I will write a note to him on that.

--- Later in debate ---

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

My Lords, on whether the Home Secretary approved it, I saw the “check against delivery” vision of it, so I cannot comment any further than that. However, when these things happen, instead of the back and forth that we saw a lot of in the Commons, with people blaming each other, I will take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, that we need to work together to resolve these things. Every victim, incident and controversial issue that has happened is the rationale for this “Engage” process to have been triggered. In some ways we should be not glad that it has happened but pleased that the process is now in place to stop these sorts of things happening, as they have been all too frequently.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I apologise to the noble Baroness for jumping the gun earlier. However, perhaps I can compensate for that by building on something that she said which I agree with. Before I say that, I should say that I do not demur from any of the condemnation that we have heard from noble Lords about some of the terrible things that have happened. However, it seems—this is where I agree with the noble Baroness—that we have to as a society consider what we are asking the police to do, and not only the police but the NHS. One thing that we somehow have to get a hold on is the sheer number of people who are drunk, mentally ill or addicted to drugs, and the amount of time that casualty officers, police officers and even prison officers seem to spend dealing with these things, writing up the reports. Somehow, we almost need a third agency to deal with these people—I have mentioned this before in your Lordships’ House and it even found some favour—to allow the police to concentrate on the job they do. When we consider judgment on the behaviour of the police, it is worth pointing out these problems and what we expect of them in those circumstances.

[Baroness Williams of Trafford (Con)]

The noble Lord points to the very good work that the police often do, and to non-policing work that the police often do. He mentioned mental health problems, which the police very often deal with on a Friday and Saturday night, and probably other nights of the week as well. I recall that, some time ago, we made a decision not to put people with mental health problems into custody suites because it is clearly the wrong thing for them, and never to put children into custody suites. He also brought to mind the benefit of a multiagency approach. We all need to work together to tackle these problems so that it is not solely the job of the police.

Immigration (Restrictions on Employment and Residential Accommodation) (Prescribed Requirements and Codes of Practice) and Licensing Act 2003 (Personal and Premises Licences) (Forms), etc., Regulations 2022

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Tuesday 7th June 2022 Lords Chamber

The lack of a full impact assessment is a severe gap, and to say that there is no significant impact on charities, voluntary bodies or the public sector, or any adverse effect on business, beggars belief. The lack of a data protection impact assessment is serious because the “right to work” and “right to rent” mechanisms are able to store transactions against individuals on which jobs, rentals and other services they have attempted to access. There is no transparency around this data: we do not know what it is used for, who it is shared with or for how long it is retained. To extend this to all people with migration status without any assessment of impact, including data protection impact, is a serious omission. As others have said, this SI raises very serious concerns and the Government should hold off any further implementation of digital-only until they have had very serious engagement on all the problems it raises.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, given what we have heard from my noble friend—I certainly support his Motion—it occurs to me that where these unfortunate people have language problems, it follows that the police, immigration officers and Border Force will have the same problems. Surely, it would solve a lot of their problems if a card could be produced to show that somebody had the right to stay and to prove their identity. I think it works both ways.

[The Duke of Somerset (CB)]

My Lords, I should like to add my voice to support this Motion to regret. The strong impression given by these regulations is that they have been developed entirely for the benefit of government and others, such as landlords and businesses, who have to check other people’s status. The needs of those with biometric residence cards or permits are not being treated with due consideration.

Apparently, 2.5 million non-EU citizens are being stripped of their right to use these cards to prove their right to work and rent, and that is a huge number. This contrasts starkly with the identity document validation technology, which is of course, by right, available to British and Irish citizens to prove the status digitally. Generally, they will do this by an identity app on their phone, which then allows them to use the physical passport in the many cases where digital proof does not work, or where a checker does not wish to use the IDVT process.

Why this disparity? What about the lack of privacy implicit in the digital-only system? Why are these people being treated as second-class? For that is what they perceive and many of us perceive them to be.

We have heard, and we all know, that technology fails. We are all familiar with the error messages that are normally infuriating, but when a process is vital—say, to secure a job or a house to live in—the risk of losing that opportunity is very real. That is why so many people prefer physical documents, including the devolved Governments, businesses and the status seekers themselves.

We have heard a little about the Ukrainians. They are also in this mess, arriving from a country at war. This Government are actively arming Ukraine brilliantly but have been pretty slow to accept its fleeing citizens. They are not English-speaking and, incidentally, many have had their dogs removed by the Home Office when they have full documentation for them, just to add to the difficulties they are suffering.

Can you imagine the further distress suffered when messages such as “service is currently unavailable” pop up on the portal website? I trust the Minister will tell the House why because the inadequate impact assessment really considers only the effects on those checking others. It ignores the needs of those being checked. I believe it certainly will have an impact on businesses, charities and local authorities, contrary to the statement in the Explanatory Memorandum.

There is nothing inherently wrong with digital but it needs backing up with physical documentation. I know the country voted for Brexit and the hard border controls that go with it, but the people we are considering this afternoon have a right to live and work here so can we not welcome them decently, humanely and with proper regard for their welfare, mental as well as physical?

Nationality and Borders Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 8th March 2022 Lords Chamber

[The Lord Bishop of Durham]

My Lords, forgive us for having two Bishops in a row. We do not normally do this—it is the way the groupings have fallen out. I support Amendment 70ZA tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, to which I have added my name with the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee, and I declare my interests in relation to both RAMP and Reset. My interest comes from my ongoing engagement in the House with issues concerning children and their well-being and safety, and ensuring that their best interests are central to legislation.

I am deeply concerned that the protection of children identified as victims of modern slavery or human trafficking is not of primary concern in the Bill. I note again that not all children who are in modern slavery or human trafficking are brought into this country from outside. Some are born and raised here but find themselves held in slavery. This is a safeguarding matter, not an immigration matter, and the legislation should recognise that children require special protection. They are covered by the Children Act 1989, as the noble and learned Baroness, Lady Butler-Sloss, pointed out earlier. Why on earth is there no specific provision for the greater protection of children despite all our international and domestic obligations? As with many other parts of the Bill, it is simply not satisfactory for a Minister to rely on unscrutinised guidance at a later date, applied on a case-by-case basis. Safeguards must be built into legislation so there is no doubt that children receive the protection they deserve and that this is not left to chance. Can the Minister say when the guidance will be produced so that it can be properly scrutinised, and how can he reassure us that children are properly protected?

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I will make a few comments to amplify the remarks of my noble friend Lady Meacher. I have just been reading a most remarkable book by a doctor, who as an eight or nine year-old child escaped from Afghanistan to try to realise his vision of becoming a doctor and thus being able to support his family back in Afghanistan. In trying to secure a voyage here, the bureaucracy of our immigration system, which I am afraid is outrageously being demonstrated in Calais, meant that this child fell into the hands of traffickers. He arrived here with a forged passport, so was sent to Feltham young offender institution. My point is that unless we improve our ability to admit refugees—particularly at a time like this, as we have heard today—we will play into the hands of these people. Like that child, so many of these refugees are just desperate for a better life; he wanted to support his family.

That child had experienced post-traumatic stress disorder of the most awful sort, having seen friends and relatives bombed and shelled and having walked among mutilated bodies. He had nightmares and flashbacks, but he did not know that he had post-traumatic stress disorder and could not understand why he was finding it so difficult to explain to the authorities that he had come from this troubled background. It was only years later, as the noble Baroness, Lady Meacher, mentioned, that he realised that it must be because of post-traumatic stress disorder.

This extraordinary person started the most wonderful foundation, Arian Teleheal, saluted by the Government, which does telemed work with children and victims all over the world. He is a wonderful example of everything which is great in this country and everything that we need to make better. He knew that if he could get here and get training as a doctor, he could change the circumstances of those he had left behind in Afghanistan —and my goodness, he did. However, we must make it easier for people such as him to come here and benefit from our education, and then do wonderful work, such as what he wanted to do, as a doctor.

[Lord Wolfson of Tredegar (Con)]

My Lords, the debate has shown that the House is unanimous on two points. The first is that my noble friend Lady Williams of Trafford should be congratulated, and the second is that the House did not much like the Government’s Bill. I associate myself wholly with the former, and I will seek to set out the Government’s position on the latter. Let me go through the amendments in turn.

Amendments 65 and 66 seek to remove Clauses 57 and 58 from the Bill entirely. The effect would be to remove modern slavery from the one-stop process and would mean that modern slavery claims would be dealt with separately from the one-stop process that addresses human rights and protection claims. That does not make much sense, for either the victims or the national referral mechanism, for at least two reasons. First, treating the two types of claims as distinct means that a victim might have to describe the same traumatic events repeatedly, which nobody wants to see. Secondly, decisions would be made about their future and their right to protection and support in isolation from, and perhaps in ignorance of, the full facts, which might mean that people who would otherwise get protection are denied it.

Those amendments, and Amendment 70ZA, do not make sense from the point of view of making the NRM an efficient, transparent and fair process. They display a lack of understanding about how the NRM works, where, in line with the low threshold for referral—I will come back to the thresholds later—we simply require relevant information at an early stage, even of a limited nature, to enable key issues to be identified from the outset. That allows early access to support and gives decision-makers a clearer picture of the individual’s experience, which in turn means a more comprehensive decision, to be taken in the round, including, crucially, the victim’s age when the relevant exploitation took place.

Perhaps more than any other group, children will benefit from early identification and protection, and from having decisions made in respect of their status and their support with as full an awareness of relevant facts and context as possible. In response to the concerns of the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, echoed by the right reverend Prelate the Bishop of Durham, we see no benefit to child victims in them raising modern slavery issues after any asylum or protection decisions have been made. That would only delay their ability to access the support and protection that they need.

I have read widely the briefings which I and other noble Lords have received, and seen that critics have argued, as has been said, that the clause will stop victims from coming forward. We do not see how a clause that encourages early disclosure of information and early identification, where any negative credibility implications are non-determinative and apply only when there are no good reasons for delay, would discourage victims from coming forward. As to evidence, I say again that the measure will allow for early identification, and we do not want victims to have to describe the same events repeatedly.

Nationality and Borders Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 2 & Committee stage
Thursday 10th February 2022 Lords Chamber

What has happened? Absolutely nothing. In the meantime, frankly, we look like a laughing stock. We are not responding to the threat of economic crime. We are giving away visas and the rest of the world must think we simply do not care. I thoroughly support this amendment.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, it is a pleasure and privilege to make this trio of noble Lords—of naughty boys—into a quartet led by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, because I strongly support all the points that have been made. On this occasion, I am talking not about people with millions of pounds, but about domestic workers, mentioned in the amendment from the noble Baroness, Lady Hamwee. Here, there is another financial imperative for the Treasury, because I have long thought that we force people into the black economy because they simply cannot find a legal way to stay here.

I suggest to the Minister that this amendment would at least help a lot of people to come out into the open and pay taxes. If they could extend legal visas, those people would not go into the black economy and extend that uncontrolled area of work.

[Lord Kerr of Kinlochard (CB)]

I support all three amendments in this group and particularly that of the noble Lord, Lord Wallace, for two reasons. First, it gives me a rare and particular pleasure to say that I strongly support an amendment in the name of the noble Lord, Lord Green of Deddington, among others. His dedication has been remarkable throughout these debates, and this is the first time I have agreed with what he has said.

Secondly, there is just one element missing from the powerful case for this amendment made by the noble Lord, Lord Wallace. It is partly filled by the remarkable speech made by the noble Lord, Lord Faulks, and it is about reputation. The noble Lord said that we have become a laughing stock worldwide but, in America and large parts of continental Europe, it is worse than that. People are not laughing; they think it is beyond a joke. I strongly recommend this amendment to the Minister.

Police, Crime, Sentencing and Courts Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Lords Hansard - Part 1 & Lords Hansard - part one & Report stage
Monday 10th January 2022 Lords Chamber

[Baroness Falkner of Margravine (CB)]

My Lords, I refer to my interests in the register and want to make it clear that I am not expressing any opinion on the merits of this particular amendment. But, because the debate has ranged far and wide beyond the amendment, and because there appears to be some misunderstanding in the House as to what the amendment is, I hope that, when the noble Lord stands to speak to this amendment, he will clarify two important factors.

I wonder whether he would tell the House whether housing a trans woman holding a gender recognition certificate on the male estate would be unlawful, as that woman is legally a woman. That is quite an important distinction, and it has not come out. There is clearly a misunderstanding there. The second point I would like him to clarify is whether housing a trans woman on a male estate, or a trans man on a women’s estate, could be unlawful as it could amount to discrimination.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, perhaps I might amplify, somewhat more bluntly, the points made by my two noble friends, and indeed the noble Lords, Lord Faulks and Lord Cashman. I have been to prisons as a member of the Koestler Trust, trying to take arts in there, and one of the things that struck me—and in a way the arts were a release for this—was the fevered testosterone. We have heard about it from both sides. I ask noble Lords to imagine, just for one moment, what would happen to somebody incarcerated in a male prison who already appears—if I may use the word—effeminate, and who may moreover have been sexually adapted to being a woman. I cannot even begin to think how that person would be targeted in a male prison. We need to think very carefully about that, whatever the merits of the amendment moved by the noble Lord, Lord Blencathra.

[Lord Herbert of South Downs (Con)]

My Lords, I draw attention to my interests as declared in the register. I find myself somewhat perplexed by this debate and the amendment. My noble friend Lady Meyer said that we were talking only about men who had not transitioned—but I do not think that the amendment says that. It is clear in referring to

“a person who has undergone gender reassignment”.

So there appears to be some misunderstanding about what the effect of the amendment would be, and I wonder what the problem is that we are trying to fix. After all, my noble friend Lord Blencathra himself said that the number of transgender women in the women-only estate was “very small”.

We know that in practice the vast majority of transgender prisoners are already held in prisons which match their sex registered at birth. The small number who are not held in such places have been risk-assessed. As the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, pointed out, that risk assessment would count for nothing in relation to transgender women because the effect of this amendment would be to say that there are no circumstances, irrespective of risk, in which such women, who may have been women for some time, may be held in the women-only estate.

It does not matter that the authorities believe that they pose no risk whatever. It does not matter that the numbers that we are talking about are actually very low. What matters to those who tabled this amendment is that the law should say that they should never be held in such a wing. That is in principle wrong.

It seems to be the sense of the whole House that people should be held according to the appropriate accommodation after a risk assessment. That might well mean that trans women are not held in the women-only estate. It might well mean that trans men are not held in the male-only estate, but that it is better that there is a risk assessment and they are held in the appropriate place.

The effect of this amendment is to prescribe, because those who tabled it think they know better. That, in the end, is the decision that we are confronted with. It is a decision about whether we are to be guided by ideology or pragmatism and, I would suggest, compassion.

It was said in advancing this amendment that a reason to accept it is that, absent it being passed, no places could be safe for women, not just in prison, but beyond the prison estate. How can that be? How could this amendment, were we to pass it, suddenly make all other places for women safe? It was also said—