Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 18th March 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Polak (Con)]

My Lords, I rise again to support the noble Baroness, Lady Kidron, as I did the other day. It says on her Wikipedia page that she is

“an advocate for children’s rights in the digital world”.

She is right, and I hope that all Members across the House who have actually heard the debate will support her in the Lobby.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, many noble Lords who have spoken today also spoke quite vehemently about the dangers of the theft of copyright in AI. We were asking to shut the stable door before the horse bolted. Today we heard from the Government, and it is very welcome news that they are looking again at the theft of copyright and seeing if they can protect artists, musicians and writers still further. I say once again, let us move with my noble friend’s amendment before the horse bolts and let us shut the stable door now.

Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Wednesday 11th March 2026 Lords Chamber

It is for the Government, really, to come to the House and say how we address this and defeat it, and how we can encourage the police to deal with intimidating masked thieves riding vehicles that are unregistered but have the performance of a moped or similar. It has been an interesting debate and I very much look forward to the Minister’s response.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I have some sympathy with the noble Lord Jackson, especially around people stealing mobile phones. However, when I read proposed new subsection (2), about people covering their face to stop identification, I thought that the problem about that was the same as my noble friend Lord Pannick mentioned. I used to cycle a great deal and I always wore a scarf, partly because of fumes, as he said, but because I seemed to be ingesting a vast number of insects and found this really rather objectionable, whether I had had lunch or not. For that reason, I am rather worried about this amendment.

[Lord Marks of Henley-on-Thames (LD)]

My Lords, Amendment 385 is the face covering amendment, in which I note that motorcyclists strangely are not covered but scooter riders are. I am not sure I see the need for a new general stand-alone police power to require someone to stop, and I see real dangers in requiring someone to remove a face covering.

The police already have, as the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, referred to, a discretionary power under Section 163 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to require any motorist or anybody propelling a mechanical vehicle or a cycle to stop—and a mechanical vehicle would include motor scooters and motorcycles. That power is very wide. It is generally considered to be directed to enable the police to conduct traffic checks. That is perceived as part of the compact between Governments and road users: if you use the roads, the corollary is that police officers can require you to stop as part of performing their function of regulating the traffic. An extra power to stop is entirely unnecessary.

The noble Lord, Lord Jackson, has rightly drawn attention to the specific case of mobile phone theft, reckless riding, riding on the pavements and so forth, but his amendment does not refer to the need for a reasonable suspicion that anyone required to remove a face covering is committing a crime. It seems to me that that was the point alluded to by the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, and ought to be an essential part of any new offence. As has been pointed out inventively, lots of people wear face coverings on cycles or scooters. The noble Viscount, Lord Hailsham, referred to the need to keep warm, and others referred to the need to avoid fumes.

In terms of wearing helmets which conceal identity, there is the safety aspect. The noble Lord, Lord Pannick, considered the avoidance of germs, and the noble Lord, Lord Berkeley of Knighton, had additional and inventive reasons for wearing face coverings, including the avoidance of ingesting insects. However, the serious point is that there can be dangers and there can be fear caused by people nefariously covering their faces. If there is a reasonable suspicion of crime, then that may be a reason for taking action. Without that, this amendment is hopeless. For my part, I am not happy when delivery drivers call at people’s homes completely covered up, because you never know whether their purposes are honest or not. At least a home owner can refuse ingress, but I would not support a general power to prevent people from wearing face coverings or a power to stop that was specifically directed at that.

On Amendment 386, tabled by the noble Lord, Lord Bailey of Paddington, it may have surprised some of us that police officers do not have a power to ensure that keys are taken out of ignitions, and that this amendment was directed at keyless or driverless cars. I should have thought, along with the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that it was sensible for police officers to ask people to get out of cars if they think that the cars that they have already stopped under Section 163 of the Road Traffic Act ought to be vacated in the interests of public safety and the avoidance of crime. I take the point made by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that sometimes it is sensible not to get them to get out of the car if they look particularly big or threatening; nevertheless, I see the reason for this amendment, but I would have thought it goes wider than driverless or keyless cars.

As to Amendment 387A from the noble Baroness, Lady Buscombe, I suspect that the whole House has a great deal of sympathy with her speech about organised criminal networks and driving unacceptable businesses from our streets, villages and towns—she even covered the quiet lanes in our villages—but her amendment, on which I share the view of the noble Lord, Lord Pannick, is not directed to anything that would necessarily achieve a great deal in respect of driving that kind of illegitimate or non-tax-paying business from our streets. The amendment is limited to extending the existing periods of closure notices and closure orders. For my part, before that amendment could be approved, I would want to see serious evidence that it would have some impact on these offences. I would also like to hear the Government’s view. At the moment, there is very little evidence as to why the existing periods for closure notices and closure orders are insufficient.

Crime and Policing Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Committee stage
Thursday 15th January 2026 Lords Chamber

[Lord Deben (Con)]

My Lords, I rise for two reasons. First, I think it is dangerous to leave lawyers to talk about these matters without the intervention of non-lawyers. Secondly, although I can claim no legal background, I am a historian, and what really worries me is that the whole of history shows how often we make mistakes in the heat of dealing with a very real issue. That is my concern. We have a very real issue of terrorism. We know that our enemies are using every possible mechanism to interfere with everything, from our elections to the way in which our motor cars are driven. We know that and, therefore, we want to protect ourselves as much as possible. But very often, when we do that, we go two steps too far, and I believe we have done so here. Indeed, if I have a complaint about these amendments, it is that I am not sure that this “keyhole surgery” will entirely dig out all the fetid wrongness in this decision. We need to go further.

I would ask that this Committee remembers that one of the roles of this House is to bring to bear long experience, and it should be the long experience of this House that it is always dangerous to legislate on things like terrorism without thinking extremely carefully about how far we are going. I believe that part of the reason why people accept the rule of law generally in Britain is that they are not afraid of the kind of intervention which this makes possible. There are two things that we have to put right. First, in the circumstances of no suspicion, it is simply not good enough to say that a constable should have his own view about the national security situation, and that that should inform a decision so certain and important as this.

The second thing we should have in mind is that we live in a world in which people do not want to share with everyone their perfectly reasonable and perfectly decent information. I believe that we have a right to privacy. It is not just because people might have an unfortunate interaction with other people that happens to be found, or that they have looked at something which perhaps would have been better not looked at, or any of those things. That is not what I am concerned about; I am concerned about the way in which human beings in this country think of the law. They believe that the law protects their personal integrity and their right to privacy. Therefore, what I want to say to the Minister, for whom, as he knows, I have great respect, is that this is not just about not going too far because of the fight against terrorism; it is also about remembering constantly what maintains our respect for the rule of law. We only have to have one example of this being used in a ridiculous manner to find people much more widely criticising the way in which the law works. Therefore, I beg of him to look rather carefully at this and see how he can meet what is an obvious problem.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I shall speak extremely briefly, because, compared to the expertise of my noble friends on the Cross Benches who have spoken thus far, I would probably merit nothing like the status of a keyhole surgeon—more like a butcher, really—in terms of legal matters. But I would just say that what I have heard is very convincing, coming from people with such expertise. I very much look forward to hearing the Minister’s reasons for rejecting the amendment, if that is what he feels he must do.

[Lord Strasburger (LD)]

My Lords, I am absolutely astonished. Until 10 minutes ago, I had no idea that these provisions existed—that a constable without suspicion could seize a person’s devices, interrogate their data and hold on to them more or less indefinitely. Could somebody, perhaps a Minister, tell me in what circumstances suspicionless search like this is justified?

Tackling Violence Against Women and Girls: Funding

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Monday 28th April 2025 Lords Chamber

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Baroness. I should not repeat myself, but the Government are currently developing a strategy on violence against women and girls. We are hoping to produce that during the summer at the very latest. We have increased the funding overall by some 36% to £102 million. We are looking at how that resource is allocated. No decisions were made this year because of the issues around the spending review to ensure that we can do exactly what the noble Baroness wants; that is, to ensure that organisations have stability, know what expenditures are coming downstream over a longer period, and are not left in the lurch in relation to a loss of services. We are in a period of flux, but the Government’s intention is extremely clear: to halve the level of violence against women and girls over a 10-year period, and the funding has been put in to begin that process this year.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, one of the reasons that some groups still think that young girls should be subjected to female genital mutilation is because they believe they are religiously instructed so to do. In fact, there is no foundation at all for this in the Koran and, therefore, one of the most important ways of combating FGM is through education. It is not just education about the Koran, but about the fact that people take children abroad to be cut as well as doing it here. One way to combat this is through those groups that are working in the educational field, some of which tell me that they find it very hard to access funding. Will the Minister look closely at that, because they will be doing the Government’s job in a certain way in trying to fight FGM?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful for the question. FGM is a crime: it should be recognised as a crime and prosecuted as a crime. The Government have put in place additional support at borders to ensure that we monitor individuals who may be taken abroad for FGM—which, again, is a crime—and we are planning additional resources and measures on that. The noble Lord is absolutely right that education and wider knowledge of that crime are extremely important. As he said, there is no religious basis for it; it is a crime, it should be treated as such and this Government will do that.

Female Genital Mutilation

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Tuesday 25th March 2025 Lords Chamber

Asked by

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton]

To ask His Majesty’s Government what assessment they have made of the prevalence of female genital mutilation nationally.

[The Minister of State, Home Office (Lord Hanson of Flint) (Lab)]

Female genital mutilation is an abhorrent crime. The Home Office concluded a feasibility study in 2024 to examine how to produce robust prevalence estimates for FGM; we are now considering the next steps. We monitor data on FGM cases from the police, the National Health Service and the Ministry of Justice. Of the 2,755 honour-based abuse offences recorded by the police in the year ending March 2024, 111 were FGM related. However, the hidden nature of FGM can make it challenging to quantify.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

I thank the noble Lord for that Answer. Although the biggest battle to eliminate FGM lies in sub-Saharan Africa, as the figures show, we cannot afford to be complacent in this country. Does the Minister agree that, although education is by far the best way to effect culture change, we still need the rule of law as a deterrent? Is the Minister at all concerned that between 2014 and 2024 we have had only two convictions for FGM? Furthermore, will the Home Office possibly agree to a request by Nimco Ali’s Five Foundation—she, of course, is a survivor—to update the 2014 estimate, thus informing policy going forward on ending FGM in the UK and helping signpost where survivors can get medical or psychological support?

[Lord Hanson of Flint (Lab)]

I am grateful to the noble Lord, who has a long history of tackling this issue in legislation and bringing it before the House. He deserves credit for the work he has done to date. He mentioned a couple of key issues. We agree that the prosecution rate needs to be examined. The College of Policing has recently sent out further authorised professional practice notes to police forces and we recently confirmed £13.1 million of funding for a new centre to tackle violence against women and girls, which will help look at a range of issues, of which FGM will be one. He is also right that we need to look at the prevalence of FGM. The feasibility study I mentioned in my initial Answer looks at how we can record and understand better the level of crime being committed. One of the key things we are doing is looking at that study and what needs to be undertaken. I and colleagues will bring forward measures to this House and to the House of Commons in due course, of which support for survivors is key.

Sir Edward Heath: Operation Conifer

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Wednesday 17th January 2024 Lords Chamber

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I am grateful to be allowed to speak briefly in the gap.

Ted Heath was a family friend for a reason that we have not mentioned so far—his passionate love of music. He became a good friend of my father and would come to dinner. I was always struck by his behaviour and his sweetness.

I want to put one thing on the record, because it is very important. Many years later, when she was in her 90s, I interviewed Barbara Hosking on “Private Passions”. Many noble Lords will remember that she was a very distinguished civil servant who looked after Ted for many years. She told me that the principal thing that she managed to do for him was to save him from wearing an appalling cardigan when he was about to conduct the LSO. She said, “What are you going to wear?” He came up with a tattered thing with a hole in it and she said, “You can’t possibly wear that”.

I asked her about these allegations and said, “Would you agree with me? From my experience, Ted was if anything asexual”. She said, “Absolutely”. In all the years that she worked intimately for him, she never saw a hint of anything else. This is important, and I think she would want me to say this, because she is of course now dead. Given that we have to reconsider this man in the light of these appalling, outrageous allegations, it is important to take on evidence like that. She thought that he was probably asexual and certainly that he had nothing to do with behaviour of this sort.

Public Order Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Consideration of Commons amendments
Tuesday 14th March 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sentamu (CB)]

My Lords, I declare an interest because I am going to follow the noble Lord in talking about young people. I am the president of the YMCA. A lot of those young people would have been caught up in the language the noble Lord referred to. I find it extraordinary.

When I was Bishop of Stepney, I was stopped and searched. The police officer who stopped me and searched my car asked me who I was. When I said that I was a bishop, he did not believe me. He then saw my dog collar and said, “Whoops”. The matter was of course taken up by the then leader of the city police. Thankfully, the gentleman acknowledged that it was him.

It is not just young people. It is not just black people. Your Lordships have heard the noble Lord, Lord Deben, telling us about his children. The power to stop and search somebody without a very clear definition gives me a lot of bother. I am a believer, and I love belief. The Bill says that the section of powers

“to stop and search without suspicion … applies if a police officer … reasonably believes”,

but how do you work that out? Was it in your head? Was it in your heart? Was it in the things you had read or seen on television? Friends, the word “belief” is so dangerous. The old “reasonable grounds for suspecting” is in there too. I would rather this section of the Bill did not exist.

I was on the Stephen Lawrence inquiry. I am sorry to mention it because the noble Baroness, Lady Lawrence, is in her place. We went around the country, and people had been stopped and searched so many times when the police did not have reasonable grounds to suspect them yet believed they were about to commit a crime.

The Stephen Lawrence inquiry gives a definition of the grounds on which you can suspect. The Bill is about public order and, therefore, some of the exceptions that the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, was talking about cannot be extended to it. Those are there, but they are not for this Bill. Do noble Lords seriously want a police officer to “reasonably believe” and then do it? How will you question that? They will simply say, “I believed it”. That cannot be good for a country of this kind.

I want noble Lords to read the Stephen Lawrence inquiry again—about the failures of the different ranks. Inspectors did not do too well during our inquiry. They are the de facto junior rank. I hear again that there are not many superintendents about. If the Bill is built on that, you need a much higher rank of police officer, not an inspector. If not many are about and this is what the Government want to do, increase the role of the chief superintendent to deliver this clause, which I think is unnecessary.

My dear friends, it is for those reasons: for the many young people of YMCA, and many like them who would have to think twice before going on a demonstration. For a country that believes that there is a right to protest—not a right to violence—you are really cutting them off. If the Minister really insists that this must go in, then the rank of a chief superintendent is a must. A police officer acting on the grounds of their beliefs, however reasonable they may be, is not a protection for the police officer or for the person being stopped and searched.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I lived in Notting Hill for many years, near All Saints Road, on the route of the carnival. During the carnival especially, it was a joy to often see police officers entering into the spirit and dancing. That was absolutely wonderful. We must not paint this one way or the other. But, more often than not, I saw examples, especially not during carnival, where stop and search was used in an incredibly provocative way. Having lived there for many years, I would say that there was no more socially divisive thing about policing than stop and search. I beg noble Lords to think very carefully about inflaming this position.

As I said, I met many police officers who behaved wonderfully, but there were and still are some who stop and search far too often and, as we have heard, it is on black people on the whole. If we want a socially cohesive society, we must not make laws that threaten and may undo that. I would really counsel caution about this. Anything that can help us not go too far, such as the amendments by the noble Lord, Lord Coaker, should be supported.

[Lord Harris of Haringey (Lab)]

My Lords, I will intervene very briefly to make two points. I spent about eight years overseeing police work on counterterrorism in London and more generally. The use of the Section 44 power, which gives the police the power to stop without suspicion, was one that most people, when they thought about it, would say was acceptable: they understood that they were in an area where there was an obvious terrorist target and heightened concern.

When that power was exercised, was it without controversy? I am afraid that the answer is no. There was enormous resentment towards it, precisely because of the issues about disproportionality that have already been referred to and the complications that ensued from that.

That was in circumstances when most people might understand it, when they had it quietly explained to them—which does not usually happen during the course of a normal stop and search—that, “We’re stopping you, because we’re in this area, you are close to this and we are stopping people at random, just to make sure that they are not carrying explosives or a bomb”. But this is about circumstances where people are engaging in a demonstration or exercising their civil rights. That is of a completely different order and what makes this disproportionate.

My second point may sound trivial by comparison. We have had the point made about what rank of officer should look at this. It was suggested by the noble Lord, Lord Hogan-Howe, that it might be quite difficult to find a chief superintendent at the right moment. All I would say is, if this is a matter of such seriousness that we are being asked to approve these extraordinary, disproportionate powers, then there should be a chief superintendent or people of equivalent rank overseeing and supervising what is happening.

Security Threat to UK-based Journalists

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Tuesday 21st February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Sharpe of Epsom (Con)]

I thank my noble friend for that. He is absolutely right: between 2020 and 2022, Iran did try to collect intelligence on UK-based Israeli and Jewish individuals. We believe this information was preparation for future lethal operations. My right honourable friend in the other place highlighted that Iran has not just targeted Jews and Israelis; it has targeted LGBTQ communities, Muslims and Christians. That is not just a flagrant betrayal of the principles of international law but, as my right honourable friend also said, a betrayal of ancient principles of Persian culture. So I entirely agree with my noble friend that we should be vigilant and on guard as to the former. I absolutely salute the efforts that he described in Abu Dhabi. Anything that promotes dialogue and tolerance between religions, or indeed peoples, has to be applauded and encouraged. I will certainly encourage the Government to do that very volubly.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, this Statement is a trenchant response and I congratulate the Government on it. However, perhaps I could follow up on the remarks of the noble Baroness, Lady Bonham-Carter, and the Minister’s reply. I want to stress the extraordinary soft power represented by what the BBC is doing. The Minister was right to mention the number. In fact, the Persian service reaches 22 million globally, 13 million in Iran. I think there are fears, despite the reassurances, that it will be hard to keep up the level of broadcasting that I am sure, in many ways, the Minister and the Government would like to see. It is an extraordinary soft power. The Minister mentioned just now the cultural importance of Persia—I could not agree more. It is that communication of culture—our culture to them and their culture to us—that is so important. I still like to believe, in these awful days, even with Russia, that it is through culture and through sport that we can sometimes find a means of speaking to each other.

Public Order Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Tuesday 7th February 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Paddick (LD)]

My Lords, there cannot be any legitimate objection to journalists, legal observers, academics or even members of the public who want to observe and report on protests or on the police’s use of their powers related to protests. We have seen in incident after incident how video footage of police action, whether from officers’ own body-worn video or that taken by concerned members of the public, has provided important evidence in holding both protesters and police officers to account for their actions. The need for this amendment is amply evidenced by the arrest and detention of the accredited and documented broadcast journalist, Charlotte Lynch, while reporting on a Just Stop Oil protest. It is all very well for noble Lords to say, “Well, if somebody was arrested in the way that Charlotte Lynch was arrested, it was unlawful”, but the fact is that Charlotte Lynch was taken out of the game for five hours and detained in a police cell, where she could not observe what was going on. We need upfront protection for journalists and observers, and not to rely on a defence that they can put after they have been handcuffed, arrested, and put in a police cell even though they are in possession of a police-accredited press pass. We support this amendment and will vote for it if the noble Baroness divides the House.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, there is something to be said for semaphore in the wider sense. That is, one of the problems that I think many noble Lords have had with the Bill is that it is sending a signal, as the noble Lord, Lord Patten, just suggested, against freedom of expression. Certainly, we need clarity in making law—I have changed my mind on two amendments today thanks to the interventions of the noble and learned Lord, Lord Hope. However, I will not change my mind on this one, because I think back to those women who were dragged around at the protest after Sarah Everard’s murder and who themselves filmed what was going on, to the disgust of the whole nation. Sometimes semaphore is very important. We are looking not just at the fine lines of the law today but at the message we are sending to the population: that we are a free society and that we want a free press. I will support the amendment.

Public Order Bill

Lord Berkeley of Knighton Excerpts

Report stage
Monday 30th January 2023 Lords Chamber

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

I believe the Deputy Speaker so directed at the outset of this debate—but I will be corrected if I am wrong about that.

[Lord Berkeley of Knighton (CB)]

My Lords, I would like to ask the noble Lord, and not from a musical perspective, whether if we change the words “more than minor” to “major” we might not make some progress, because surely that is what they mean.

[Lord Anderson of Ipswich (CB)]

I am conscious that an expert musician will certainly know the difference between minor and major. I take refuge in the fact that there is no such amendment before us, so perhaps I do not need to answer that today.